View Full Version : Please Read: Polish Beta Screens not entirely legal
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm55.showMessage?topicID=4365.topic
dunno if .org mods now want to delete them, but since it's officially illegal now I think this comes under the Piracy rule.
Yes, CA has asked the Org to act on this. I have moved all threads about these Polish screenshots to the recycle bin. Apologies to those people, like myself, who spent time discussing the screenshots believing they were obtained legitimately.
I would be grateful if people did not create any new threads discussing this material, as I'll only have to get rid of them too.
By the way, Captain Fishpants did say to me:
For what it's worth, the version they had was only a beta candidate, and the current version is much, much better.
Myrddraal
10-03-2006, 18:35
EDIT: Econ got there first :smile:
Furious Mental
10-03-2006, 18:48
If CA is worried about us looking at old code maybe they'd like to release some material themselves.
If CA is worried about us looking at old code maybe they'd like to release some material themselves.
That's SEGA's job.
They are handling the marketing and when to release what and where.
Yeah I advice you to pm Shoggy (The Shogun) if you want to know, he's their PR man, from what I heard they aren't releasing much atm, since it's almost out.
Besides they won't release code
Well there is always the demo:idea2:
Yup and that isn't here yet, guess why they won't release them ~;)
Yup and that isn't here yet, guess why they won't release them ~;)
If you would have asked me that one month ago I would have given a good respone but now no.
I feel that they are dragging it a bit too much and even more so if it is planned for late october.
Screens don't do much these days.
Videos are good tho but only the demo will increase the hype.
yeah true, but the problem is, is that they announced this too early.
They announced that they were going to get it finished more then half a year ago, by this they always get fans who can't wait. This means you always have to wait longer.
If they announced it 2-3 months ago, things would have been more 'safe'
Well a few more of those intensive updates would work too.
The ones where we got, developer blog, faction preview and 3d unit all in a very short time.
By the gods that was intense but fun and atleast for me made me more hyped up about the game.
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
10-03-2006, 19:24
Just legal things here.
DukeofSerbia
10-03-2006, 19:31
It all sounds like some marketing campaign...
Lucky me. I saved those threads and screenshots.
Anyway, I see that they published English units.
Sun of Chersonesos
10-03-2006, 19:53
it's not a briliant situation though, if it's SEGA's job for the marketing and CA's job for the game itself, then presumeably they both are in league, The CA should notify SEGA to release some material
cannon_fodder
10-03-2006, 19:55
I was wondering why so few people were discussing the legality on all those threads; seemed pretty dodgy to me. It seems that the people who obtained the alpha didn't distribute it though, so it's not too bad.
The CA should notify SEGA to release some material
SEGA knows what they are doing.
Mean, most of us are eagerly awaiting the game so they did something right.:laugh4:
lancelot
10-03-2006, 20:41
Im curious as to why CA is getting worked up over puctures they have already stated are an early version and will not represent the final version?
I mean, that in itself is certainly nothing new (the release of pics with the understanding that the finished product might be not be the same).
And even if the pics were unofficially leaked..which is a problem at CA's end...how does this detract from what the pictures show?
Faenaris
10-03-2006, 20:44
Also, the site in question has stated that they had permission from the publisher to show pictures. Either SEGA slipped a bit or the publisher has stepped beyond the boundaries of the contract.
BaldwinIV
10-03-2006, 20:49
This is their explanation:
Also we would like to make an official statement regarding some rumours about the legality of the screens we're publishing.
The beta version that we have comes from the official Polish publisher of MTW II and we do have their permission to release all stuff we want. There were voices saying that the strange look of many units results from an illegal nature of the beta - no, the real reason is that the version we have is really buggy and that is why the quality of screens is low. We were never concealing that all screens come from beta.
We are a free informative service and we do have full rights to benefit from the free access to information. Comments and rumours published on other TW websites are far beyond our interest, our purpose is to provide fans with information from Total War world, not to take care of some people's feelings.
This is their explanation:
That explanation was posted before shogun.
BaldwinIV
10-03-2006, 20:57
That explanation was posted before shogun.
Sorry, I didn't see it... :shame:
Sorry, I didn't see it... :shame:
Well it was a response to the rumours that they weren't legal so it's atleast half-way right :2thumbsup:
Im curious as to why CA is getting worked up over puctures they have already stated are an early version and will not represent the final version?
Presumably, part of the problem was the stream of faction unit previews that were starting to steal the thunder of the ign faction previews. I guess CA had arranged for the faction previews as an exclusive to ign.
Moreover, I think CA want to retain some surprises in the game and the Polish screenies were effectively a massive spoiler. Look at big mods like EB - they like to retain some surprises too (mysterious factions etc.); it's good marketing to keep people expectant and curious before the release date.
Also, the Polish screenies were giving stats and more detail than has been provided elsewhere - potentially cutting into the market for the strategy guide.
Finally, if it was a really early beta, I can understand CA wanting to be judged at their best not by a protoype.
So, basically, we don't really know that the Scots units will be woaded and kilted? ~;)
oops... what econ said ~:)
Polemists
10-03-2006, 21:50
I agree with what others said though. If CA and SEGA's goal is to not have people scampering to find this data then release some. I mean heck IGN can't even seem to hit there once a week deadline for faction previews.
So what is holding us for next 2-3 weeks? 1 maybe 2 faction previews? Is it that hard to release a video once a week besides ign?
Just my thoughts.
CA does it's own marketing and stuff, they decide for themselves to release things. That's what The Shogun, better known as Richie Skinner, does.
But he is CA PR man, he does every game (well almost everyone), don't think he has all the time for MTW2, another problem is, is that he is a Brit and the game is made in Australia
Barbarossa82
10-03-2006, 22:51
I would question the idea of the Polish screens being "not entirely legal". I do not know anything about Polish law, but as a legal professional myself I do have formal training in Common Law which is the basis of the law of England and Wales and of Australia, the two principal jurisdictions in which CA operate. Unlike an individual, a corporation does not have a free-standing right to privacy; its ability to protect its intellectual property hinges solely upon its ability to prove that the unauthorised recipient/relayer of confidential information has gained some material benefit from it. Unless the Polish site is generating some form of revenue from these screens, or they are being exposed to rivals capable of copying details of the game to "spike" the release of M2TW, this would seem unlikely.
Even if CA could prove either of these things, the only remedy they would be likely to achieve would be constructive trusteeship imposed upon the Polish site managers, i.e. a responsibility to deliver up any profits they had made from diaplaying the screens. Injuctive relief, i.e. a court order forbidding publication, would not be granted unless continuing, future damage was likely.
At any rate, these are considerations of purely civil law and do not disclose any criminal wrongdoing. I don't see that it is proper to treat the screens as being somehow "illegal". Being unauthorised by CA and being unauthorised by the law are two very different things. Whilst I can understand why the .org would take a firm line against piracy etc., I think it's premature to remove the links merely on the basis that CA might be unhappy with them.
You also have to consider this, TotalWar is a registered trademark, no sites with that name are allowed to be created without CAs permission, this site has it, but they might say that TW Poland doesn't have it anymore.
Barbarossa82
10-03-2006, 22:58
Also they still have to show that the Polish site is getting a quanitifiable, material benefit from breaching the trademark. Trademarks exist to predict commercial property from commercial infringement, not from non-commercial use. Obviously that may be different under Polish law, I have no idea how things run over there.
Whilst I can understand why the .org would take a firm line against piracy etc., I think it's premature to remove the links merely on the basis that CA might be unhappy with them.
The title of this thread ("not entirely legal") was not written by Org staff. We're not lawyers and are making no legal judgements here. However, it's not that CA might be unhappy with them - CA is unhappy with them. A CA staffer, The Shogun, has written to us asking that the links be removed. As a courtesy, we have complied.
Yup I wrote not entirely legal because atm I made the thread things weren't all clear yet, by now I know they are considered illegal by Shoggy
Beefeater
10-03-2006, 23:55
It's likely that the various distributors (including the Polish one) are subject to some form of non-disclosure agreements ("NDA"). Under these the distributor/publisher will be bound not to disclose to anyone outside certain categories, a definition which may include local websites, certain information defined as confidential (probably including screenshots and unit statistics), and to ensure that anyone they do disclose to is also able to keep quiet about what they have seen.
I can't speak as to Polish law of contract, but as a general rule, breaching an NDA doesn't necessarily mean people being sued and going bankrupt. It's up to the party not in breach (CA or, more probably, SEGA) to decide what action to take - might just be a slap on the wrist if they judge no major harm has been done. They probably will tighten things up in future though. I think we should not expect any more unauthorised screenies.
shifty157
10-04-2006, 02:19
Well the site said they were specific and full permission to take whatever screens they wanted and release them. THat doesnt sound like a very strict NDA to me.
My guess is that CA expected the site to maybe post ten or so screens and not to go through cataloguing everything in the game via screenshots which practically what they did. Basically what will happen is that site will probbaly never be offered any prelaunch promotional material again and if they are then theyll be kept on a very short leash.
CA obviously isnt happy about it but on a legal basis they really cant do anything so really the could keep them if they wanted. Of course that will obviously repercussions in the future like CA completely ignoring that site. I dont know but it kind of seems pointless to me to operate a fansite when the publisher actively hates you.
Furious Mental
10-04-2006, 06:22
If there is a non-disclosure agreement it would be between the Polish publisher and Sega or CA. If the Polish publisher gives a beta version of the game to an independent website which then uses it to release material, it's the publisher not the website that is in violation of an agreement.
screwtype
10-04-2006, 14:56
For what it's worth, the version they had was only a beta candidate, and the current version is much, much better.
I suspected as much, because IMO those big purple fonts had "beta" written all over them.
I'm also really hoping we get more sophisticated looking cities, ports and ships than those ugly looking square things that we got in RTW, but I'm not so confident about that...
DukeofSerbia
10-04-2006, 18:54
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm55.showMessage?topicID=4365.topic
dunno if .org mods now want to delete them, but since it's officially illegal now I think this comes under the Piracy rule.
On this thread you posted "this is what totalwar.org.pl says about it, personally I would sue them, but CA doesn't care about my opinion (that was no bashing, that's just the truth, what would CA want we the opinion of a 18 year old Dutch student)".
1. Why?
2. Why you don't like totalwar.org.pl?
On this thread you posted "this is what totalwar.org.pl says about it, personally I would sue them, but CA doesn't care about my opinion (that was no bashing, that's just the truth, what would CA want we the opinion of a 18 year old Dutch student)".
1. Why?
2. Why you don't like totalwar.org.pl?
That's posted at dotcommie, reply to me there
but just for you: it's illegal
Titus Andronicus
10-04-2006, 19:04
Everything has cleared up. CD Projekt has contacted the staff of Totalwar.org.pl and explained, that they violated their agreement with SEGA by giving permission to publish info on the beta version on the polish site. CD Projekt took the whole blame.
You also have to consider this, TotalWar is a registered trademark, no sites with that name are allowed to be created without CAs permission, this site has it, but they might say that TW Poland doesn't have it anymore.
Sorry, Stig, but this is totally incorrect. In common law, for instance, it is well established that as long as a site does not try to "pass itself off" as one affiliated with the trademarked product it is allowed to use a trademarked name. There was a famous case where someone mad at Citibank had a website called "Citibank Sucks". Citibank sued, but the courts determined that as long as the gentleman did not use the Citibank logo, but rather wrote out the name of the bank in regular font, and had a clearly defined disclaimer that he is not affiliated with Citibank, then he was allowed to use the corporate name with impunity.
However, the story with the screens is different. They are copyrighted, even if they were never meant to be used, and thus posting them violates CA's rights. There is a question whether or not posting one or two images, or a portion of the images would qualify under one of the exceptions, such as are afforded to reviewers or educators, but that would have to have been decided by a court, so the more prudent step, in order to avoid litigation, would be to remove them from this forum. However, the removal of the discussion of the screens is not warranted, as such discussion does not infringe on anyone's rights, for example, somking pot is illegal, but talking about it is not.
OK, I think this is becoming ancient history. :closed:
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