EB -- the future? [Archive]

Seamus Fermanagh

10-04-2006, 04:12

Will EB reach a "complete" form prior to the development of a new "engine" by CA that might invalidate all this brilliant work?

I've watched these gorgeous components develop, but am unsure where/how things can come to fruition. Or is the work you do adaptable enough to absorb such a change in stride?

Teleklos Archelaou

10-04-2006, 05:04

Nothing can "invalidate" this work SF. I'll be playing this game for years. I haven't even bought or played another pc game since RTW came out.

DeathEmperor

10-04-2006, 06:18

I haven't tried Europa Barborum yet but from what I've seen and read there's no way such a great work of gaming art will be ignored or forgotten even when M2TW is released :2thumbsup: .

Avicenna

10-04-2006, 07:59

MSB

10-04-2006, 08:09

There is no way that CA will make M2TW better than EB. It's just going to be another nice-graphics-no-depth game for children. It just simply isn't in their interest to put so much time and effort into making the game very accurate and deep, which would dissuade the more childish from buying it, and therefore pushing up production cost while losing revenue.
Yes, but the EB team could build on a "nice-graphics-no-depth game for children" by adding the brilliant EB depth and accuracy and using the good graphics as well. In my opinion the Total War series is there to be modded by genius' like members of the EB team so it can be made BETTER!

Although it would be good if the CA made an accurate game in the first place. Then modders would not have to waste their time improving it. Just think about it, there were hardly any mods for Shogun (accurate), a few for Medieval (reasonably accurate), but there were lots for RTW (in-accurate). It just show that people want an historically accurate game.

Epistolary Richard

10-04-2006, 08:43

Didn't you guys _just_ have a thread like this one?

Avicenna

10-04-2006, 08:50

MSB

10-04-2006, 08:51

Didn't you guys _just_ have a thread like this one?
Yes we did:
What is the future of EB? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69187)

MSB

10-04-2006, 09:03

It got too long ~;p

MJ: You must remember. The objective for CA might be a little prestige and reknown, but mostly it is MONEY MONEY MONEY $$$ !!! Hardly any of the market wants an accurate game, and I doubt they could push up the price even if it was more accurate. Most people wouldn't know/care/pay more for that.
I would care and I would pay (slightly) more for an accurate game and so would many others. Just think about all of the people who play historically accurate mods. Surley they must care?

CountArach

10-04-2006, 09:06

I would care and I would pay (slightly) more for an accurate game and so would many others. Just think about all of the people who play historically accurate mods. Surley they must care?

Yes those people would care. But all in all worldwide we make up a small percentage of the total market. We are what you would call a Niche. A very picky niche at that. Simply put marketing to us is not worth the extra money and time that would go inot producing the game. THe research alone would cost FAR too much for CA to want to make an accurate game, due to having to pay all of the historians.

Simply put... it will never happen.

MSB

10-04-2006, 09:11

Yes those people would care. But all in all worldwide we make up a small percentage of the total market. We are what you would call a Niche. A very picky niche at that. Simply put marketing to us is not worth the extra money and time that would go inot producing the game. THe research alone would cost FAR too much for CA to want to make an accurate game, due to having to pay all of the historians.

Simply put... it will never happen.
They managed well enough to make Shogun resonably historical and Medieval Totalwar was historical as well. Either they knew alot about these periods already or they did their reasearch (probably the second one). What went wrong with Rome to make it so inaccurate?

Trithemius

10-04-2006, 09:40

Didn't you guys _just_ have a thread like this one?

Eternal recurrence ftw.

Ludens

10-04-2006, 11:55

Although it would be good if the CA made an accurate game in the first place. Then modders would not have to waste their time improving it. Just think about it, there were hardly any mods for Shogun (accurate), a few for Medieval (reasonably accurate), but there were lots for RTW (in-accurate).
Might this not have something to do with the fact that S:TW is barely moddable, M:TW reasonably moddable, and R:TW well moddable? Or with the fact that the S:TW community was small, the M:TW community intermediate and the R:TW community big?

It just show that people want an historically accurate game.
Most mods did not have realism as a requirement. Also, R:TW sold far better than S:TW and M:TW combined.

They managed well enough to make Shogun resonably historical and Medieval Totalwar was historical as well. Either they knew alot about these periods already or they did their reasearch (probably the second one). What went wrong with Rome to make it so inaccurate?
M:TW wasn't very accurate either. Take the muslim unit roster, for example. S:TW was accurate, but only because it was very simplistic. The current games are far more detailed. Also, it is relatively easy to represent the way the Japanese waged war over one century, but doing the same for several European factions over 400 years is going to take a lot more work. The problem isn't that CA is doing less research, the problem is that they've got to do more to reach the same level of accuracy for each faction.

MSB

10-04-2006, 13:13

M:TW wasn't very accurate either. Take the muslim unit roster, for example. S:TW was accurate, but only because it was very simplistic. The current games are far more detailed. Also, it is relatively easy to represent the way the Japanese waged war over one century, but doing the same for several European factions over 400 years is going to take a lot more work. The problem isn't that CA is doing less research, the problem is that they've got to do more to reach the same level of accuracy for each faction.

Ok correction: M:TW was resonably accurate. The Catholic factions were sort of accurate at least.

Avicenna

10-04-2006, 14:10

Really? From what I heard, there was a faction called 'Italy' and a faction called 'Spain'.

AFAIK, Spain had Castille, Aragon and a few Moors.
Italy wasn't united until the 19th century...

eadingas

10-04-2006, 15:12

No, Spain was just Castille, Aragon was a separate faction, and italians had a counter-faction of Kingdom of Sicily and Naples, so it wasn't entire Italy, but sort of "Greek Cities". Although combining Genoa with Venice into one faction was a bit irritating, and the Italians developed way too fast.

From what I recall, MTW was researched much better than RTW. At least I didn't get that sudden feeling of "wait a minute, ALL THIS IS WRONG!" back then.

Lusitani

10-04-2006, 17:54

Not to mention that apparently Portugal starts with.... Navarra...how historical is that!?

Teleklos Archelaou

10-04-2006, 18:17

I'd like to propose a title for the next similar thread: :jumping:

"EB and the Future: What up?"

Solon of Athens

10-04-2006, 18:50

I would love to see the EB team join together with the MTR/RTR teams to make an awesome mod, that would just be so awesome it is unimaginable...oh wait it is...:wall:

Well we can dream... :2thumbsup:

But I would still love to see EB make a realism/historical mod for MTW2, EB was the first mod I ever played and has remained on my hard drive since it was released all the months ago just after Christmas, an EB mod for MTW2 would remain on my HD until atleast Christmas 09...:laugh4:

Seamus Fermanagh

10-04-2006, 18:56

There is no way that CA will make M2TW better than EB. It's just going to be another nice-graphics-no-depth game for children. It just simply isn't in their interest to put so much time and effort into making the game very accurate and deep, which would dissuade the more childish from buying it, and therefore pushing up production cost while losing revenue.

I wasn't arguing against EB's historical accuracy focus or rich unit depictions -- these are great.

I wasn't worrying about the quality of the new mercs and governance systems -- they are developing but add a wonderful tone.

I was worrying out loud that CA may develop an engine that is so new, and perhaps so much better, that folks won't want to use the RTW engine anymore. If that happens, can EB be brought up to the new engine or is all this wonderful work "trashed" (which I would not enjoy)?

If this was already addressed, my pardons. I spend too much time getting ridiculed in the Backroom to read everything here all the time (explanation, not excuse).

Zaknafien

10-04-2006, 20:40

I think the game engine is irrelevant as long as you have trhe means to play it. I still play alot of the 16 and even 8-bit strategy games of days of yore, simply because they are much more fun and immerisve than the quick and flashy fix todays gamers get.

Musopticon?

10-05-2006, 00:40

And I think that whatever you think matters very little here. The masses of fans will go for MTW2, realistic mods forum regulars are a niche. The nichest of niches actually.

Zaknafien

10-05-2006, 00:55

True, but who cares? As long as we're getting a game that we want to play, (however large that "we" group might be", it doesnt matter. Its not like its a popularity contest.

Musopticon?

10-05-2006, 01:00

I care. That's why I post.

MarcusAureliusAntoninus

10-05-2006, 01:19

Musopticon?, that makes a nice quote, "I care, therefor I post." :laugh4: :laugh4: ... :no:

Ludens

10-05-2006, 16:45

Ok correction: M:TW was resonably accurate. The Catholic factions were sort of accurate at least.
True. At least M:TW contained far less borderline/fantasy units than R:TW does.

I was worrying out loud that CA may develop an engine that is so new, and perhaps so much better, that folks won't want to use the RTW engine anymore. If that happens, can EB be brought up to the new engine or is all this wonderful work "trashed" (which I would not enjoy)?
Nobody really knows how difficult it is going to be to port a R:TW mod to M2:TW, but we can be certain that it will be no small task. Also, Khelvan stated that the team will first make a full version for R:TW 1.5 before considering other options. But it may be good to defer the decision to port until a bit later, when the engine has been patched and its limitations are known.

spong

10-05-2006, 19:29

pezhetairoi

10-06-2006, 13:15

why do I not share your optimism regarding CA...? :(

Monarch

10-06-2006, 13:39

It would be sweet if CA offered jobs to the EB team, the quality of the TW series would go through the roof if that happened, and such things have happened before in the games industry, quite alot in fact.

IIRC the Battlefield 2 devs took the same route by hiring BF 1942 Desert Storm modders.

Btw, you guys really need to stop being so pesimistic, moan away once Medieval 2 is out, but until then its just depressing.

eadingas

10-06-2006, 14:05

Somehow, I think having "EB team member" on your CV works at a disadvantage when applying for work with CA :)

MSB

10-06-2006, 17:51

Somehow, I think having "EB team member" on your CV works at a disadvantage when applying for work with CA :)
Hmmm, yes EB and the CA are sort of rivals. I personally think that the CA is scared that the EB team's mod is going to one day become a perfect game that is better than their Total War series.

Teleklos Archelaou

10-06-2006, 18:12

CA and EB aren't rivals mate. They probably barely know of us as far as I know.

MSB

10-06-2006, 18:26

CA and EB aren't rivals mate. They probably barely know of us as far as I know.
Surely they must know of you if you tried to inform them of how to portray Barbarians?

Trithemius

10-07-2006, 07:10

Somehow, I think having "EB team member" on your CV works at a disadvantage when applying for work with CA :)

Really? Why are "self motivated" and "works hard with little promise of financial reward" such turn-offs for CA? :dizzy2:

Krusader

10-07-2006, 16:18

Really? Why are "self motivated" and "works hard with little promise of financial reward" such turn-offs for CA? :dizzy2:

A mod dedicated to correcting CA's historical inaccuracy and errors, isn't exactly going to win friends with CA.

MSB

10-07-2006, 18:32

A mod dedicated to correcting CA's historical inaccuracy and errors, isn't exactly going to win friends with CA.
You never know, the CA might like some historians on board.

eadingas

10-07-2006, 22:35

The marketing guys at Sega would certainly not like somebody constantly nitpicking historical inconsistencies.

khelvan

10-07-2006, 23:22

Will EB reach a "complete" form prior to the development of a new "engine" by CA that might invalidate all this brilliant work?Well, the wonderful thing about EB is that the core of what we are doing is limited by, not based on, the underlying engine. It remains to be seen exactly what MTW:2 will allow us to do that R:TW does not, though I know many of our team members are very excited about certain features, such as the ability to have differently equipped/clad soldiers in the same unit.

We have not yet made an official announcement regarding our plan for the future.

MSB

10-08-2006, 12:05

I think you should "port" EB to M2. Apparently there are going to be 30 faction slots and you could work the Castles and City goverment styles of M2 and use them to represent the goverment system of EB.

-Praetor-

10-11-2006, 05:34

Well, currently you could see if M2TW is moddable or not

because...

the demo is out... ~:eek:

go to this page in order to read the first steps of M2TW modding (sh**, this is historic :dizzy2: )

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64225&page=1&pp=20

PS: However, I don`t believe that CA has been so dumb to release a moddable demo, but nevertheless, one could always start to know the basics of the engine, right?

Wandarah

10-12-2006, 15:00

Hmmm, yes EB and the CA are sort of rivals. I personally think that the CA is scared that the EB team's mod is going to one day become a perfect game that is better than their Total War series.

Considering EB requires CA to exist, I consider this somewhat unlikely.

PSYCHO V

10-13-2006, 00:38

Surely they must know of you if you tried to inform them of how to portray Barbarians?

Yer they are aware. To CA's credit, they actually took some advice from EB members to improve the barbarians in RTW. Originally, all the barbarians were going to be generic conan types.

my2bob

Seamus Fermanagh

10-17-2006, 04:21

Well, the wonderful thing about EB is that the core of what we are doing is limited by, not based on, the underlying engine. It remains to be seen exactly what MTW:2 will allow us to do that R:TW does not, though I know many of our team members are very excited about certain features, such as the ability to have differently equipped/clad soldiers in the same unit.

We have not yet made an official announcement regarding our plan for the future.

Thank you. This answer addresses my question neatly, no kvetching.

khelvan

10-17-2006, 04:31

Except that our plans have now been announced.

Reverend Joe

10-22-2006, 04:14

Surely they must know of you if you tried to inform them of how to portray Barbarians?
"EB? Europa Barbarorum?... OH, RIGHT... those whacky nerds who tried to make us change our game to make it more 'historically accurate'... pfft. They gave up before the game ever began- we haven't heard from them since."

Does that answer your question?