View Full Version : New Faction Preview - The Turks
Hochmeister
10-05-2006, 03:03
On IGN
http://pc.ign.com/articles/737/737316p1.html
:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
Darth Nihilus
10-05-2006, 04:15
Looks good. That monster bombard is going to be interesting to use.
Also it looks like what everyone though was Ottoman infantry with a halbred is actually halbred militia. While bow armed Ottoman infantry are back.
Furious Mental
10-05-2006, 04:46
They don't mention those Elephant musketeers in the preview but they're in the video
What I find disappointing is that nothing is mentioned about stakes for some of the turk archer units.
CBR
Polemists
10-05-2006, 04:54
Well first off as one person mentioned there are some units missing. I doubt they give you every single peice of info as I'm sure CA wants one or two surprises per faction still.
I'll be honest my favorite thing to do as turks was try and convert everyone else haha. Anyway they look really strong, i'm impressed. I thought maybe elephants, a few gun units. I am happy though, they have there own unique style of infantry, archers, and those pots look scary.
Now if only I could travel through time and bring back some flaming pigs :laugh4:
Furious Mental
10-05-2006, 05:05
I now have a suspicion the elephant musketeers might be mercenaries since there is a screenshot of the Turkish unit selection panel in custom battle mode and the elephants aren't there.
the_mango55
10-05-2006, 06:19
Look how mean the halberds look on the JHI!
http://pc.ign.com/articles/737/737316p1.html
This was the faction I wanted to see, and wasn't dissapointed.
And I'm extremely happy about the Jannissary Musketeers, I have always wanted to play with a hybrid gun/melee unit.
Well first off as one person mentioned there are some units missing. I doubt they give you every single peice of info as I'm sure CA wants one or two surprises per faction still.
No, I think the faction previews are exhaustive - they match up 1:1 with with what you can buy in the custom battle screenshot, see:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69721
I don't think "elephant musketeers" were a mainstream Ottoman unit. Maybe it is an exotic mercenary or reward for a mission?
CBR, I agree about the stakes but at least the game should be moddable to include them.
A. Smith
10-05-2006, 12:09
stakes are probalby restricted to longbowman/a few select european bowmen.
I know the first faction i am going 2 play...."Bring on those Bombards all the way up to Vienna & smash the infidels" [just kiddin´, I am Catholic myself & live in the area...well, on world scale]!!!! Huuuurrrray!!!!!!:2thumbsup:
stakes are probalby restricted to longbowman/a few select european bowmen.
It seems like all the "professional" (i.e. non-peasant and non-tribal, like "Lithuanian archers") archers in the polish previews can set down stakes. I really don't see why any archers shouldn't have the ability (it's going to be pretty restrictive as it immobilizes the archers). While I know of relatively few examples of spesifically archers building field fortifications, it is rather common for infantry to do so in general, especially when facing armies with cavalry superiority.
Randarkmaan
10-05-2006, 13:16
stakes are probalby restricted to longbowman/a few select european bowmen.
Really unfair actually, especially considering the fact that the Ottoman infantry at Nicopolis placed lots of wooden stakes to protect themselves.
Furious Mental
10-05-2006, 13:37
I miss the Ghazi infantry and Futuwwas but I suspect they will be jihad units.
scourgeofrome
10-05-2006, 13:48
The unit list looks awsome. Here are my favorite ones.
Monster Bombard (Big guns=Big,explosive fun)
Sipahis (Armoured Horse Archers.Sign me up)
Naffatun (Flaming Pots of DOOM)
Hashishim (Assasins on the field.Sweet)
Qapukulu (Maces+Cavalry=Pain)
Ottoman Infantry (I loved these guys in MTW)
Maybe I'll play as the Turks first?
Callatian
10-05-2006, 15:19
Who wants to see the Turks capital? :)
Basileus
10-05-2006, 15:38
I reckon its going to be tough with the byz, nice mixture of units for the turks
The unit list looks awsome. Here are my favorite ones.
[LIST=1]
Monster Bombard (Big guns=Big,explosive fun)
I sure hope the cannonballs won't explode. The Basilic was made for knocking down walls, not pretending to be a howitzer...
Nathanael
10-05-2006, 16:32
Hmmm, I guess those faction preview screens were a bit outdated (that had labelled JHI as OI).
I loved the Turks last time around it looks like they're still awesome, although it looks like they're going to have more trouble with armor long range until they get their Janissary Musketeers. I'll also miss the JI, although maybe the OI will be better fighters this time around (even if they lost their effective vs armor axes).
I think HashishiM was a typo; in the description they spell it HashishiN, which is more accurate.
It is weird that IGN's subhead is "When you hear the elephants stomping and the bombards the Turks are on their way," and yet the Turks don't have any elephant units.
scourgeofrome
10-05-2006, 16:49
I sure hope the cannonballs won't explode. The Basilic was made for knocking down walls, not pretending to be a howitzer...
Hey, as long as something is destroyed with a huge gun, I'm happy. With those guns you go from this :wall: ,to this :charge: , and finally this :2thumbsup: (You) + :skull: (Enemy) .
Finally!! Lets take a look at them...
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-05-2006, 20:27
~:pissed: ~:angry: ~:pissed:
...
And I read in the MP blog that upgrades won't affect missile strenght, right when the Turks faction is out ~:mad
I guess the days of the hybrid turk army are over ~:mad
...
~:pissed: ~:angry: ~:pissed:
That feature looks so much like a CBR designed "feature" that I'll blame him for that ~;)
What's next? They'll take out the wood?
Louis,
CeltiberoMordred
10-05-2006, 21:06
In MTW, updrades didn't affect missile attack either, and you could deploy hybrid armies... So, keep the faith ;)
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-05-2006, 21:32
Sure it idid...
But I meant upgrade discount :dizzy2:
Louis,
CaesarAugustus
10-05-2006, 21:37
Wow the Walls of Constantinople will fall like a stack of cards against those monster cannons.:skull:
I think i've just found my second favourite faction.~:)
After all, how likely is it that an even more fierce and formidable race of nomadic warriors sweep down from the steppes?
Nice little hint to the arrival of the Mongols and Timurids..........I wonder if they will be a major problem for the Turks.
the_mango55
10-05-2006, 22:07
~:pissed: ~:angry: ~:pissed:
...
And I read in the MP blog that upgrades won't affect missile strenght, right when the Turks faction is out ~:mad
I guess the days of the hybrid turk army are over ~:mad
...
~:pissed: ~:angry: ~:pissed:
That feature looks so much like a CBR designed "feature" that I'll blame him for that ~;)
What's next? They'll take out the wood?
Louis,
I don't get this post at all. Why would you not be able to use a hybrid army again? The upgrades will still make the melee attacks better, which is important for hybrid units.
and what do you mean by "They'll take out the wood"?
Sun of Chersonesos
10-05-2006, 22:18
i dont know, honest to god i dont know
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-05-2006, 22:37
Ok, in MTW, one of the main strenght of the Turkish army was the ability to field an "hybrid" army*, an army made nearly entirely of shooter, such as Janissary infantry, Ottoman infantry, etc...
That army relied on a few MTW features to work really well, mainly valour upgrade improving (slightly) missile accuracy, and more importantly, missile troops getting a SWEET discount on upgrade cost which helped to field those nice v3 jan inf or v4 otto inf at an affordable cost.
Valour upgrade improving missile accuracy is a thing of the past (see multiplayer blog).
Missile discount on upgrade is also gone, since RTW (instead, upgrade costs are not a fixed % of the troop cost, so I guess if there are discount of that sort, it will be factored in the upgrade price of each individual unit).
Hence, I am pissed :laugh4:
Mordred is right to point there is hope: it will depend on upgrade structure cost, so far unknown. And it's so different from MTW anyway that it does not really compare.
Louis,
* ok, in early the light cavalry selection was also great to play with...
PS: and woods matter because of... errr... mushroom :dizzy2:
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-05-2006, 22:46
Otherwise, and without jest, it's intriguing the roster do not have any kind of real "line" infantry.
Most of the heavy infantry units are in the halberd, anticavalry department. So I guess that the role of MAA in Turkish army will still go to Otto inf or Jan inf.
Cavalry looks medium. Will mace armed Qapukul be armour piercing? That would make them an anticav cavalry unit of some sort. Cavalry charge is not going to be the winning factour for the turk...
Louis,
scourgeofrome
10-05-2006, 22:52
Cavalry looks medium. Will mace armed Qapukul be armour piercing? That would make them an anticav cavalry unit of some sort. Cavalry charge is not going to be the winning factour for the turk...
Louis,
Oh ell. I was never eally good at cavalry any ways. Bring on the Ottoman Infantry.
... it's intriguing the roster do not have any kind of real "line" infantry.
But probably historical? The Europeans had the meat grinding heavy infantry, not the Moslems.
Note that curiously, the Turks do get the armoured Saracen spearmen, a unit I always found rather ahistorical in MTW (when it was confined to Egypt, no?).
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
Cavalry looks medium. Will mace armed Qapukul be armour piercing?
Surely. It will be interesting to see how they stack up against knights.
Kralizec
10-05-2006, 23:11
But probably historical? The Europeans had the meat grinding heavy infantry, not the Moslems.
Note that curiously, the Turks do get the armoured Saracen spearmen, a unit I always found rather ahistorical in MTW (when it was confined to Egypt, no?).
I think it probably would have been a better idea to make Saracen Infantry a regional unit (available in Syria, Arabia of course, the Levant, etc) available to muslims only. In fact I don't recall any muslim regional units except the Armenian Heavy Cavalry, and that one didn't even make sense.
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
I didn't see it as a real weakness in MTW, you just had to use a different playing style. Of course as a MTW player you know how deadly the Ghazi/Saracen combo is.
I didn't see it as a real weakness in MTW, you just had to use a different playing style. Of course as a MTW player you know how deadly the Ghazi/Saracen combo is.
Indeed, but while the Turks have gained the Saracens (they did not have that in MTW did they?), they seem to have lost the Ghazis[1].
On balance, this, change may make the faction play more historically. The Saracen spears may be a little too well armoured for historical Turkish line infantry, but this will compensate for the apparent lack of stacks and other field fortifications that the Turks used as the centre of their battlefield defenses.
[1]Unless the Ghazis reappear as some kind of special jihad unit, like the MTW crusades' fanatics and Order foot. Rather a sweet idea, now I think about it - the Ghazis were supposed to be religious fanatics or at least freebooting types.
Kralizec
10-05-2006, 23:25
Turks had Saracens, the Almohads didn't. Always thought that was odd, considering that the Almohad people was partially Arab. But it made playing an Elmo battle all the more interesting :2thumbsup:
Watchman
10-06-2006, 00:15
The Moors pretty much only ever had Arabs in the top brass when they crossed the Gibraltar, and since then the leadership got shuffled anew about every century or so. Mind you, some of the rulers were reputedly so fond of fair concubines bought from the north their sons had to dye their hair so as to not look too "Frank" for the sensibilities of their subjects...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Muslims could also recognize the considerable practical value of lineholder spearmen in decent armour. Everyone else did, and they weren't any dumber. The dearth of iron deposits in most of Middle East might be a minor problem but then again you can get pretty far with just applied leather technology (some of the techniques the Egyptians invented for the job were real alchemy), and that certainly would not be an issue for the Moors in any case.
It's not like there's some special magic to having your heavy infantry do their thing covered in iron and leather, you know.
It's not like there's some special magic to having your heavy infantry do their thing covered in iron and leather, you know.
True enough. It's just I have not come across a reference to Saracen heavy or even Turkish armoured heavy infantry "doing their thing". Both seem to have relied on their cavalry, with infantry being regarded as being of lower quality. For example, skimming through "Armies of the Middle Ages", there is only one illustration of an armoured Muslim infantryman (probably a janissary officer), whereas there are scores of European equivalents.
I found the Saracen infantry particularly jarring in the MTW early period, because it meant that the Egyptians (and apparently Turks) could have serried ranks of mailed spearmen while the Catholics could not (Chivalric sergeants came in the High period).
Watchman
10-06-2006, 01:02
Middle Eastern armies tended to rely on their cavalry for the main in open-field battles - natural enough given the open spaces common to the region. Infantry isn't nearly as good at maneuver, so it naturally got the lineholder duties.
Which doesn't mean they couldn't be pretty well equipped. I'm not sure of the exact recruitement methods Muslim infantry was typically raised through (AFAIK it varied enormously by time and place), but I'm willing to bet there were enough professionals and better-off urban militiamen involved for many of them to be quite well armed - the price of a decent warhorse could usually get you the whole rest of the panoply in most places after all, and people also tend to be fond of protecting their corporeal selves if they can afford it.
For what it's worth, the Osprey books (which usually aren't too badly off) mention armoured Muslim infantry over a very long period including the MTW one so it was likely around. Keep also in mind that wearing various articles of clothing (robes, surcoats, tunics, turbans) over armour and helmet was by all accounts a common (and sensible, as metal exposed to direct powerful sunlight gets really hot really fast; the Crusaders copied it right fast) practice and some mail was outright made to appear as thick clothing to begin with (khazagand, called jazerant in Europe) which may skew perceptions.
That feature looks so much like a CBR designed "feature" that I'll blame him for that ~;)
What's next? They'll take out the wood?
Louis,
~:)
It appears the gameplay they intend is for 10K without upgrades as one cant get all elite units at 10K. If morale for lower quality units is good enough, and missile units are not too costly like in MTW, then it might have good balance.
If they are not careful its just gonna be like 5K gameplay in MTW and within days everyone is playing at 15K+ to get the best units and/or upgrades to get good enough morale.
oh and Im sure there will be woods for smurfs to hide in :laugh4:
CBR
Nathanael
10-06-2006, 02:28
Okay, I just watched the video, and
1. Love the music! That was one thing I hated about MTW - the music was totally awesome but each track would only play once and they weren't that long.
2. Looks like Naffatun have a pretty decent throw distance now, so they won't be nearly as useless. It's about like the difference between MTW javelin guys and RTW javelin guys.
3. The elephants are puzzling - they are show like they are Turk units in the video, and IGN says they're a hallmark of the Turks, but they don't show up in the preview or the custom battle screen. Maybe they're not listed because they are only available in certain provinces that the Turks start with?
Watchman
10-06-2006, 02:31
...I don't think there were elephants living in Anatolia, the central and western Iranian plateau and Mesopotamia withing recorded history...
The closest would be in India, I think. African savannah eles are apparently no good - too vicious and cannot be tamed (plus they don't live anywhere near what can be assumed to be Turkish starting provinces either).
In classical times there were elephants in Syria. Lions, Wolves, and bears too. But the Romans games exterminated them all. The african forrest elephants above the Sahara too. They were gone even before BI time frame. Sassanid elephants came from India after all. So would medieval elephant units. It probably means that the Mesopotamian province(s) will have the elephant resource this time.
scourgeofrome
10-06-2006, 04:21
Elephants?I the turks have elephants, thats enough for me. Watch out world, my Turks are coming (evil maniacal laugh).
ivoignob
10-06-2006, 05:08
I can not make any detailed statement on the unit roster but the video, it's music and some campaign map pictures didn't look turkish at all! They had much more an arabic feeling. The general in one of the in-game pictures has an arabic name (Jalal) and since the fact that it's a very early stage of game and the turks came from the east recently he should have a different name IMHO. And the mask on his face is a mistery to me as well.
Other than that, it's all okay to me! Good Job!
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-06-2006, 08:56
Oh ell. I was never eally good at cavalry any ways. Bring on the Ottoman Infantry.
If you don't like cavalry, chances are you'll like that cavalry! It's (probably) not designed to charge ennemy infantry (no spear), but to counter ennemy heavy cavalry with armour piercing.
Louis,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-06-2006, 09:10
Note that curiously, the Turks do get the armoured Saracen spearmen, a unit I always found rather ahistorical in MTW (when it was confined to Egypt, no?).
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
Saracen spearmen got spears, so they are probably more of anticavalry infantry and chances are that MAA will cream them.
JHI was probably an anti infantry monster in late SP game, because of the natural unbalance in SP campaign. In MP, the best way to lose money as a turk was to buy JHI and throw those at ennemy MAA: at equal florin, JHI will lose. JHI only good role is anticavalry, that's why they got a halberd...
Turk got no real sword yelding unit, so I guess hybrid archer will have to do that job!
Louis,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-06-2006, 09:10
Note that curiously, the Turks do get the armoured Saracen spearmen, a unit I always found rather ahistorical in MTW (when it was confined to Egypt, no?).
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
Saracen spearmen got spears, so they are probably more of anticavalry infantry and chances are that MAA will cream them.
JHI was probably an anti infantry monster in late SP game, because of the natural unbalance in SP campaign. In MP, the best way to lose money as a turk was to buy JHI and throw those at ennemy MAA: at equal florin, JHI will lose. JHI only good role is anticavalry, that's why they got a halberd...
Turk got no real sword yelding unit, so I guess hybrid archer will have to do that job!
Louis,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-06-2006, 09:14
~:)
It appears the gameplay they intend is for 10K without upgrades as one cant get all elite units at 10K. If morale for lower quality units is good enough, and missile units are not too costly like in MTW, then it might have good balance.
If they are not careful its just gonna be like 5K gameplay in MTW and within days everyone is playing at 15K+ to get the best units and/or upgrades to get good enough morale.
oh and Im sure there will be woods for smurfs to hide in :laugh4:
CBR
I don't buy the "balance for 10k with no upgrade and not all elite". Precisely for the reason you put forward in the next paragraph. MP players will play with whatever amount of money is necessary for units not to rout in seconds. If that means all elite, then we'll see all elite army and 20K will be the norm.
Or whatever is needed depending on what the unit file is.
Time will tell.
Louis,
CeltiberoMordred
10-06-2006, 14:50
I don't buy the "balance for 10k with no upgrade and not all elite". Precisely for the reason you put forward in the next paragraph. MP players will play with whatever amount of money is necessary for units not to rout in seconds. If that means all elite, then we'll see all elite army and 20K will be the norm.
Or whatever is needed depending on what the unit file is.
Time will tell.
Louis,
The blog says that games are optimized at 10k, with armies getting 1/3 elite, 1/3 medium and 1/3 crap units.
The main point is: those non elite units must get enough morale to not to rout immediately. If the only way to avoid instant routs is getting armies with all elite units, then 10k won't be used as standard and therefore it will break the original balance. That's why developers must be careful.
We still don't know morale levels of low quality units, so let's be patient and wait.
I can not make any detailed statement on the unit roster but the video, it's music and some campaign map pictures didn't look turkish at all! They had much more an arabic feeling. The general in one of the in-game pictures has an arabic name (Jalal) and since the fact that it's a very early stage of game and the turks came from the east recently he should have a different name IMHO. And the mask on his face is a mistery to me as well.
Other than that, it's all okay to me! Good Job!
i agree with you but maybe we can mod the names and use turkic names in the early times and turco arabic names for the later time periods.
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
10-06-2006, 21:02
The turkish armies were based on infantry.
The turkish armies were based on infantry.
According to who?? :inquisitive: The Turks were reknowned for their cavalry-based armies throughout the Early and High periods of the Middle Ages. It wasn't until the development of the Janissary corps that infantry began to be featured prominantly in the Sultan's armies, and that didn't happen until the mid-14th century or so.
1320 is the year I've heard tossed around in regards to the founding of the Janissaries.
LeftEyeNine
10-07-2006, 03:04
ivoignob makes some gooood statements indeed. Yes medieval ages meant Ottomans more than any other Turkish state but even they were never that much Arabic. Islam 's language is Arabic, so it is inevitable for a Muslim society to get affected by Arabic language over time, but I am sure that CA will create a balance clearly yielding "a Turkish faction affected from Arabic culture by means of Islam". For instance, even in the latter times of Ottomans, there were no names starting with "Al-" prefix as they have in Arabic. In MTW there were such names.
Music? Well as long as Mr. Van Dyck is on the job, I have no complaints at all. Hearing "Mehter" would drive you berserk during a battle but I really admire his atmospheric contribution to TW series, I know anyhow it will be good. :2thumbsup:
Looks good. It's interesting to see a more hybrid cavalry/infantry based army.
Like RTW, it looks like the less familiar nations to popular culture will be a lot better.
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
10-07-2006, 07:17
When they took Byzantium an defeated the european armies at Nicea or Niece (something like this)they had an army based on infantry.
After looking at this preview, Im looking forward for the focus on the Mongols and the Moors...indeed.
Mongols will be playable right?
As for the Moors, ah...AUM...
One of the screenshots I saw from them, are spearmen or muribitin spearmen (I think) marching from some town with a beautiful scenic sunset( or was it sunrise). It was very picturesque. ~:cool:
DukeofSerbia
10-07-2006, 11:38
Iconium is capital of Turks with only two buildings?!:dizzy2: I can't believe...
Halberd Militia for Turks!
Well they did just move in right? :inquisitive: :dizzy2: :help:
DukeofSerbia
10-07-2006, 12:02
Janissary Heavy Infantry
Initially formed in the mid 14th century and consisting of captured Christians who were amongst the Sultan's 1/5 of prisoners captured in battle, and who have converted to Islam. These elite heavy infantry are armed with a halberd and armoured in mail. They are expected to lead the infantry charge into battle with courage and honour.
Wasn't it? Prisoners?
And then:
Janissary Archers
Janissaries, 'Yeni ceri' , meaning new soldier in Greek are made up of prisoners of war and non Muslims. Drafted while young, these soldiers form a large part of the Turkish army and pledge loyalty to the Sultan. Janissary are expert archers capable of showering the enemy with arrows, weakening and breaking formations before the infantry move in.
Do I see contradiction - "are made up of prisoners of war" and "Drafted while young"?:wall:
Who cares about history any more?!:laugh4:
LeftEyeNine
10-07-2006, 13:00
It's even worse, DoS.
Janissary Archers
Janissaries, 'Yeni ceri' , meaning new soldier in Greek are made up of prisoners of war and non Muslims. Drafted while young, these soldiers form a large part of the Turkish army and pledge loyalty to the Sultan. Janissary are expert archers capable of showering the enemy with arrows, weakening and breaking formations before the infantry move in
Since when pure Turkish word "yeni" meaning "new, and "çeri" meaning "soldier" has been Greek ? How can one imagine that the most well known Ottoman soldier's name could be called in Greek ?
I hope it's an editorial mistake only related to IGN.
It's even worse, DoS.
Since when pure Turkish word "yeni" meaning "new, and "çeri" meaning "soldier" has been Greek ? How can one imagine that the most well known Ottoman soldier's name could be called in Greek ?
I hope it's an editorial mistake only related to IGN.
i agree :)
Oguz_Yabgu
10-07-2006, 17:26
It's even worse, DoS.
Quote:
Janissary Archers
Janissaries, 'Yeni ceri' , meaning new soldier in Greek are made up of prisoners of war and non Muslims. Drafted while young, these soldiers form a large part of the Turkish army and pledge loyalty to the Sultan. Janissary are expert archers capable of showering the enemy with arrows, weakening and breaking formations before the infantry move in
Since when pure Turkish word "yeni" meaning "new, and "çeri" meaning "soldier" has been Greek ? How can one imagine that the most well known Ottoman soldier's name could be called in Greek ?
I hope it's an editorial mistake only related to IGN.
i agree
i agree
DukeofSerbia
10-07-2006, 17:45
It's even worse, DoS.
Since when pure Turkish word "yeni" meaning "new, and "çeri" meaning "soldier" has been Greek ? How can one imagine that the most well known Ottoman soldier's name could be called in Greek ?
I hope it's an editorial mistake only related to IGN.
Don't ask me.:dizzy2: More I read more contradictions I see.:wall:
I hope it's an editorial mistake only related to IGN.
So do I. Its really annoying.
the_mango55
10-07-2006, 20:27
eh, a small error in the text.
Takes 5 seconds to fix.
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
10-07-2006, 20:37
:spammer: :spammer: :knight: :knight: :weirdthread: :weirdthread: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :gah2: :gah2: :gah2: :gah: :gah: :spider:
LeftEyeNine
10-07-2006, 21:00
eh, a small error in the text.
Takes 5 seconds to fix.
No it's a BIG etymological mistake. Oh no, don't rush over to me saying "Hey CA is a game developer, that is no history encyclopedia". I have nothing to do with the use of "Qapukulu" instead of "Kapıkulu", this is something more than a tiny error. "Yeniçeri" is a pure Turkish word. Simple and BIG.
Would it still be a small error if they had written the word "Conquistador" came from Moors ?
I think it probably would have been a better idea to make Saracen Infantry a regional unit (available in Syria, Arabia of course, the Levant, etc) available to muslims only. In fact I don't recall any muslim regional units except the Armenian Heavy Cavalry, and that one didn't even make sense.
Armenians, despite christian, actually fought often under Muslim banners at this time. Especially their cavalry was well-regarded. There were Armenians living up to Egypt even. At this time, they simply got along better with the Muslims than with the orthodox Byzantines who they loathed.
True enough. It's just I have not come across a reference to Saracen heavy or even Turkish armoured heavy infantry "doing their thing". Both seem to have relied on their cavalry, with infantry being regarded as being of lower quality. For example, skimming through "Armies of the Middle Ages", there is only one illustration of an armoured Muslim infantryman (probably a janissary officer), whereas there are scores of European equivalents
Perhaps a not so good book regarding the Muslim armies then. ;)
Quotes from translated manuals in these times made by/for the Muslim military elite has shown that they realized the importance of both cavalry and infantry, especially when combined.
Anyways, I wonder if the Janissary Archers are hybrids too?
Marquis of Roland
10-12-2006, 07:59
If Turkish troop development was anything like it was in MTW, it looks like Turks will have mediocre troops (more so than MTW1) for at least half of the game.
Best "line" infantry they have before ottomans, Sipahis, and Janissaries are saracen militia and (maybe?) halberd militia. From my experience in RTW and MTW, with exception of perhaps AUM, militia = bad. Ok, so saracens are wearing more armor than usual. But militia also = route quickly. Hashishin are a special small unit and although useful in certain situations I don't consider them line infantry and I wouldn't be using them to hold the line anyway. Granted Turkish early infantry in MTW wasn't that great either, but at least they had both offensive and defensive units in early (saracens and ghazis respectively).
Best missile infantry looks like Turkish archers. Not up to par with futuwwas, who can melee (well, melee and die but at least they can hurt you in melee).
Best missile cav unit is Turkomans. Well thats not so bad, think it was the same in MTW, but no more steppe heavy cav and those guys can melee and shoot, unlike turkomans in MTW, but from the description it sounds like they're gonna increase the melee viability of turkomans.
Do Qakupulu come out in early or mid period? otherwise Turks won't have any heavy cav except for general's unit. Oh well, looks like i'll be shooting down kataphraktoi jedi generals with my horse archers again.....over a period of 10 or so battles lol.
Maybe they're missing some units from the list. I didn't see the elephants, if in fact they are going to be a Turkish unit. And, as some of you already mentioned, there might be jihad units that are available in early but not on the official Turkish unit list.
At any rate, Turks are my favorite MTW faction and I hate having to have to listen to the pope, so I'll be playing Turks no matter how crappy their starter units are, because eventually I'll have my Janissaries and then I'll have fun making pet food out of euro knights :2thumbsup:
Watchman
10-12-2006, 11:27
The Kapiqulu palace cavalry proper were very much an Ottoman thing - the best picks of the same pool the Janissaries and much of the adminstration was drawn from actually, AFAIK - so one would imagine earlier Turkish lords (presumably representing the Seljuqs for the most part) will have to make do with whatever Ghulam bodyguards are called these days.
AFAIK Turkish armies before the Ottomans were primarily cavalry-based (not really surprising given their nomadic background) with infantry recruited from sedentary populaces and urban centers under their suzerainity for support and lineholding duties. Once the Ottomans started pressing the last Byzantine strongholds and establishing themselves on the European side of the Bosphorus they apparently started becoming painfully aware that they were having a real shortage of truly capable infantry to hold the line on the field and serve as assault troops in sieges, and the Janissaries were established to deal with the problem. I've read they were experimenting with similar infantry corps even earlier, at that time based on the ghulam institution and recruited from freed POWs and converts, but apparently it didn't yet quite catch on back then. Later they introduced the child-tribute system whose name I cannot right now recall to ensure a steady supply of recruits as well as proper indoctrination and training.
Even then the infantry was not the main fighting arm, even if the Janissaries in particular AFAIK tended to be employed as a massed shock force to shatter the enemy line in the late stages of pitched battles. The primary striking force remained the cavalry, drawn from subject nomadic peoples, the quasi-feudal timar system, assorted vassals and allies, and the usual colourful collection of mercenaries and freebooters. By what I've read the normal division of labour was for the infantry to hold the enemy at the center while the cavalry sought to gain control of the flanks and envelop the remainder, which was then wiped out with the help of the footsloggers.
fielding heavy infantry or not is probably as much a question of culture and tradition as of seing an d fullfiling a practical military need. for an essentially equestrian culture as the pre-ottoman empire turks, the obvious way to go to war was mounted on horseback with bow and quiver, not as line infantry. the founding of the janissaries kind of underlines this, they couldnt get quality hevy inf from their own ranks, both because of lack of infantry tradition and the fact that nobody probably wanted to be a fotman, and had to purpose-build an infantry corps from foreigners.
restricting the early turkish unit roster to turkmen horse archers may not be fun or good for game balance, but it probably is quite historically correct.
Looks good enough...
But I miss the Futuwwa, Turcoman Infantry (my favs by far among archers), Jannisary Infantry and Ghazi (ahh the lovely cruise missles of MTW). I hope that both Ghazi and Futuwwa will enter as Jihad troops, for they are among my most beloved troops of MTW.
At least the JHI seems to be back, though I wonder if Turcoman Horse Archers have an equal this time round? Perhaps the Sipahis (though they seem far too elite for that).
Louis, do not fear the costs too soon.
There are changes to the power of missiles (no upgrades and weaker in general), so it is fair to estimate that the ranged infantry will get some sort of bonus/cutback. If not, then the game is highly favourable towards Western armies.
And I doubt that Palamedes would let that big an issue go past him.
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