More Muslim Trouble in the Land of Oz

[Vladimir]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20560551-3102,00.html


A RELIGIOUS feud between a Muslim father and his teenage daughter may have sparked a bloody domestic dispute on the Gold Coast which left the man's wife dead and him fighting for life in hospital.

Police are investigating suggestions the violence erupted after the 17-year-old girl told her father she wanted to opt out of the Islamic faith and convert to Christianity. The girl's mother is believed to have stepped in to protect her daughter, only to be fatally stabbed with a kitchen knife.

I have another cheeky story about a baby being used as a club in a domestic incident in PA. Anyone want that one too? :shame:

For the sake of balance, here's one from the US:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/07/children.killed.ap/index.html

I'd really like to know if these people are of the trailer park trash variety or what. Sheesh.

I feel like I need to post some happy stuff in the Frontroom now.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wasn't aware that domestic violence was an exclusively Muslim problem.

:dizzy2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

I wasn't aware that he was talking about simple domestic violence.

Crazed Rabbit

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wasn't aware that he was talking about simple domestic violence.

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

:dizzy2:

[Dâriûsh]

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

:dizzy2:

How about a pathetic man willing to kill his family for the sake of his “personal honour”?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

:dizzy2:

As opposed to trying to kill your daughter and actually killing your wife becuase your daughter wants to convert to a different religion.

CR

[Scurvy]

I wasn't aware that domestic violence was an exclusively Muslim problem.

:dizzy2:


exactly, why cover muslim domestic violence exclusively?

[BDC]

I think honour killing is more of a cultural issue than a religious one. I know a Hindu guy with the same kind of problems. He didn't take up my cunning suggestion of him marrying a gay Muslim just to antagonise his family. :(

[Ser Clegane]

I think honour killing is more of a cultural issue than a religious one.
And that exactly nails it - mixing up (unacceptable) behaviour that is based on regional cultures with bevaviour that is rather based on religion seems to be quite common nowadays (the two are of course often influencing each other).

It should be noted that honor killings also used to be not so uncommon in Christian parts of Southern Europe (e.g. Southern parts of Italy)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In Europe didn't honour killings usually involve someone outside the family?

I.e. you kill the man that stole your daughter's verginity, rather than your daughter?

Either way honour killings are utterly pathetic. You are responsible for your own actions. If she wants to become a Christian it should reflect on her, not her father.

[BDC]

In Europe didn't honour killings usually involve someone outside the family?

I.e. you kill the man that stole your daughter's verginity, rather than your daughter?

Either way honour killings are utterly pathetic. You are responsible for your own actions. If she wants to become a Christian it should reflect on her, not her father.
Indeed, but it insults the family or something.

I'll never understand the concept properly.

[Crazed Rabbit]

And that exactly nails it - mixing up (unacceptable) behaviour that is based on regional cultures with bevaviour that is rather based on religion seems to be quite common nowadays (the two are of course often influencing each other).

It should be noted that honor killings also used to be not so uncommon in Christian parts of Southern Europe (e.g. Southern parts of Italy)

It seems to me the problem is with Islamic culture, no matter where these events take place; Iran, Australia, or Germany. Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

Crazed Rabbit

[Keba]

Until recently (or possibly still) blood feuds were common in Albania ... similar enogh. The recently bit means as recently as 8 years ago, maybe still ... I'm kinda out of touch with the place.

[Reenk Roink]

It seems to me the problem is with Islamic culture, no matter where these events take place; Iran, Australia, or Germany. Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

Yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3149030.stm


Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Funny that that statement was in an article on how a Muslim man killed his daughter for becomeing westernized in Britain.

More importantly, they offer no proof of honor killings amoung different cultures. They could label one nut an 'honor killing', which it may well be, but it would not be an indication of a cultural thing unless there are others from that same culture doing it. After all, it would be foolish to say only Muslims do honor killings. But it would be foolish too to ignore their prevalence.

If people are saying that these honor killings are really cultural and not religious based, there should be a proportionate amount of examples of non-Muslims in areas in the Middle East commiting honor killings.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

I'll grant you that these killings are nor very widespread nowadays - that they used to be more common than they are today does not change the facts that they are primarily culturally driven.

Usually you will also notice that these things rather happen in rural areas (or involve people with a rather rural background).

[Fragony]

It's a cultural thing not religihihiHAHABUAHAHAHAHA damnit let me try again.

It's...a culturellllllllllllllllllllllllMAO god this is hard.

focus..........

It'sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss dear lord

I give up how do you do it?

[lanky316]

It's not explained how he ended up in critical condition there. Surely it should be the wife killed and daughter wounded?

[Ser Clegane]

Fragony I am not quite sure what your problem is here - but as soon as you are able to breathe again I might offer some clarification.

The fact that this is rather based on regional cultures than on a specific religion, does not make the "idea" of honor killing any more acceptable (just as the mutilation of the genitalia of a woman that some cultures practice is not acceptable for us).

However, instead of resorting to the usual knee-jerk reaction it might be helpful from time to time to at least try to understand what certain "customs" might be based on

[Fragony]

Fragony I am not quite sure what your problem is here - but as soon as you are able to breathe again I might offer some clarification.

Oh don't mind me, just having fun with lethal family tragedies.

[caravel]

I'm not so sure it's a culture thing. I am almost 90% certain it is an islamic issue. If the girl was almost killed for wanting to convert to another faith, and her mother actually killed protecting her, then how is that strictly cultural (an islamic culture anyway when you consider that religion controls almost every aspect of their lives)? It seems to me, and probably to most others that aren't overzealous apologists, that this is just another display of muslim intolerance of the apostate in any form, as is evident in the quran and moreso in the hadith.

[Pannonian]

I'm not so sure it's a culture thing. I am almost 90% certain it is an islamic issue. If the girl was almost killed for wanting to convert to another faith, and her mother actually killed protecting her, then how is that strictly cultural (an islamic culture anyway when you consider that religion controls almost every aspect of their lives)? It seems to me, and probably to most others that aren't overzealous apologists, that this is just another display of muslim intolerance of the apostate in any form, as is evident in the quran and moreso in the hadith.
Have you heard of the story of Verginia and Appius Claudius?

Islam was established from a nomadic base, unlike Christianity which was always an urban religion. Muhammed set rules for his followers that allowed them to transcend their nomadic roots. For as long as the Islamic empire ruled, they kept to the spirit of his strictures. Now that the Islamic world has fallen apart, they're going back to their old ways. What makes it particularly fun is that Muslim conservatives have picked and chosen the worst customs from every part of their erstwhile empire and put them together as "true" Islam.

I suspect Muhammed, if he lived today, would be reviled by the elders as a lax Muslim who did not observe the religion correctly - there's a story that says the later caliph of Egypt chastised him for exactly this, even during his lifetime. I suspect that's not that much different from Jesus, whose communist leanings would get little sympathy in the Christian world today.

[Radier]

Honor killings is not a muslim thing. It's a part of the whole middle-eastern culture as some allready have said. A friend of mine lost his mother in honor killing. The father murdered the mother and they are all christian assyrian who lived in Bagdhad.

[caravel]

Have you heard of the story of Verginia and Appius Claudius?

I have. An example of so called "honour killing". The problem here is that the incident in question bears only some of the hallmarks of an honour killing, which are usually planned, cold blooded affairs, not spontaneous frenzied, on the spot knifings (which can occur in any culture). The issue is not the murder/attempted murder itself but the circumstances surrounding this particular killing, which was a reaction to the daughter's apostasy. That is, her renunciation of islam in favour of christianity. I don't feel that we can put such incidents in a box, and simply write them off as honour killings, when it is clear why this woman (the girl's mother) was killed. She was attempting to defend an apostate, from someone that was obviously fanatical in their belief, that the punishment for apostasy should be death.

[Reenk Roink]

Funny that that statement was in an article on how a Muslim man killed his daughter for becomeing westernized in Britain.

More importantly, they offer no proof of honor killings amoung different cultures. They could label one nut an 'honor killing', which it may well be, but it would not be an indication of a cultural thing unless there are others from that same culture doing it. After all, it would be foolish to say only Muslims do honor killings. But it would be foolish too to ignore their prevalence.

If people are saying that these honor killings are really cultural and not religious based, there should be a proportionate amount of examples of non-Muslims in areas in the Middle East commiting honor killings.

Crazed Rabbit

:rolleyes:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html


Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.


According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the fifty-eighth session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, in 2002, concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83, linked below):

The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honour defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela and the West Bank.

Some of these (eg Turkey) have since been abrogated.

Countries where the law can be interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in cold blood as well as in flagrante delicto (in the act of committing adultery) include:
*Jordan: part of article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty" [5]. This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament[6].

Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but not in cold blood) include:
*Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic Code) include:
*Morocco, where Article 418 of the Penal Code states "Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery."
*Haiti, where Article 269 of the Penal Code states that "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

In Turkey, murder laws formerly contain a specific provision for reduction in sentence from an maximum of 24 years imprisonment to 8 years if the perpretrator was "provoked". The sentence was raised to 24 years in 2003. After European Union pressure, Turkey prohibited family members from being able to claim "provocation" and thereby receive lighter sentences. [7][8]

In two Latin American countries, similar laws were struck down over the past two decades: according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery." [9]

Countries where honor killing is not legal but is frequently ignored in practice include:

*Pakistan: Honor killing are supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignored it. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/24/2003180222 Consequently, on October 26, 2004, Pakistan's lower house of Parliament passed a bill that would make honor killings punishable by a prison term of seven years and the death penalty in the most extreme cases. The bill must be approved by the upper house before becoming law. The bill was introduced by the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf due to the hundreds of honor killings that occur each year in Pakistan, government officials reported. Nilofer Baktiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings. [10]

I see some (Catholic) South American and (non-Muslim) African Countries there. I also see a basis on the (non-Muslim) Napoleonic Code. I also fail to see (Muslim) South East Asian countries like Malaysia and Indonesia...

Keep denying it though, if it makes you feel good...

[Ser Clegane]

Reenk Roink, while I also hold the view that honor killings are not limited to muslims (and more importantly that for the honor killings committed by muslims, legion is not the cause), the article does not really prove that point as it only gives information where honor killings happen and not about the background of the people who were involved.

While I would not be surprised if the killings in Brazil were not with a muslim background, I would not also not be surprised if the majority of the honor killings in e.g., Great Britain, Italy and Sweden were done by non-natives.

[Fragony]

"Crónica de una muerte anunciada" by Gabriel García Márquez is about honor killings in latin america, pretty good book. He doesn't really want to kill his wives lover but the pressure from his family becomes too much.

ps, it were catholics

[Ser Clegane]

Without going too much OT - there is also a good movie (with Ornella Muti) based on that book.

[Reenk Roink]

The European countries mentioned had cases of honor killings among immigrants. Then of course there are the Arab nations and the South East Asian nations.

Now, we have had one person already state that an Assyrian Christian (middle-eastern) family had an incident of an honor killing in Iraq.

My previous article stated that Sikh and Christian families also committed honor killings in the U.K along with Muslims.

Then there is the interesting thing of the law codes, based on the Napoleonic Code.

Like the article states:


The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

[Fragony]

Well that's the obligitory 'christians burned witches' line, but in the islamic culture it's rampant, and that is no coincidence. If women are possesion they get butchered for the smallest dissobedience, it isn't really what they do, but they get butchered because it goes against the will of the husband/father, making him look like a fool that can't control it's cattle.

[Del Arroyo]

I think there is a big difference between killing an external third party who has "wronged" your family or your person; and killing your own offspring, regardless of the justification. They could both be said to fit into the label of "honor killing"-- but to call both of them thus suggests that they are equivalent, a suggestion which in my view is clearly false.

.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I suspect that's not that much different from Jesus, whose communist leanings would get little sympathy in the Christian world today.

Communist leanings? There's a great difference between charity and socialism, you know.


Now, we have had one person already state that an Assyrian Christian (middle-eastern) family had an incident of an honor killing in Iraq.
The plural of anecdotes is not data.


Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.

Gee, and who commited the honor killings in those countries? This is proof of nothing. Heck, this thread started with an honor killing in Australia, and it certainly was commited by native Australians, was it? I wonder what the unifying factor is between the murderers in the vast majority of those countries.


According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the fifty-eighth session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, in 2002, concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83, linked below):
...
*Jordan: part of article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty" [5]. This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament[6].
etc.

All of those, except for Muslim Jordan, excuse only murders of passion while catching your wife commiting adultery, and includes murdering the person she is commiting adultery with. A poor example of 'honor killings'. This is different from the cold blooded murder of a relative who has 'shamed' the family, say by being raped. None of the countries (save Muslim Jordan, which allows it for adultery) allow such cold-blooded murder.


My previous article stated that Sikh and Christian families also committed honor killings in the U.K along with Muslims.

No, it did nothing of the sort. It stated only that police suspected there might be some murders of that sort, and listed no real examples.


Keep denying it though, if it makes you feel good...
I don't have to deny arguments that don't exist. You had to bring up laws regarding murders of passion because of adultery as an argument that cold blooded honor killings cross cultures.

Heck, even Ser Clegane said

Reenk Roink, while I also hold the view that honor killings are not limited to muslims (and more importantly that for the honor killings committed by muslims, legion is not the cause), the article does not really prove that point as it only gives information where honor killings happen and not about the background of the people who were involved.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

This is different from the cold blooded murder of a relative who has 'shamed' the family, say by being raped.
Killing a relative who has been raped is OK , but only if you live in town , if you live in the countryside then you cannot kill them , you can only kill the rapist themselves .
Its the law of God you see :idea2:
Or is that really just what some bloke said that his version of tribal law concerning honour and suchlike should be according to god .~;)

Honour killings occur where places are still tribal or clannish , where men are men and women "know their place" or else .
So is it a Muslim thing or a cultural thing ?
Since it is also a christian and Jewish (plus a multitude of other belief systems) thing ,then it cannot be a Muslim thing can it .
So it is a cultural thing , it just happens that most places that still have tribal/clan systems are Muslim , but not exclusively as India , New Guinea some pacific Islands , Botswana and other S.African states and areas of S.America show .

[Papewaio]

Islamic leader rejects honour killing (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20565905-661,00.html)


Gold Coast Islamic leader Imam Imraan denied his religion preached death as retribution for renouncing Islam.

"There is no such thing as honour killings -- it is totally un-Islamic," he said. "If a (Muslim) person wishes to change their religion . . . there is no problem at all."

It's like saying chocolate easter bunnies are a christian thing when it really is based on a pagan ritual that has been partly imported into christianity.

Meme suites like religions incorporate local customs into religion, wipe out local customs or sometimes are in a flux with them.

Honour killings happen in many non-muslims nations. Indian Hindu families... wives have been set on fire, Chinese families... wives shunned/beaten up/murdered for not having a male first born.

As nations modernise these incidents decrease.

One of the problems with immigration though is that a lof of older imigrants mindset is culturally frozen in place at the time they left their countries. They don't modernise along with either their local or their native country, nor do they change mindsets naturally as their children progress from infants to preshoolers to teenagers to adults. If they where in their native country they would have more family and friends influencing them to change their attitudes as their children get older.

So a lot of people who go back to their old countries appear old fashioned/set in their ways and not up to speed with current fashions in their native countries. I have seen that with Chinese friends, Turkish workmates and Japanese collegues.

[Reenk Roink]

The plural of anecdotes is not data.

Amazing how that works now...

The anecdote that started the thread was enough "data" for you to point out that "the problem is with Islamic culture".


Gee, and who commited the honor killings in those countries? This is proof of nothing. Heck, this thread started with an honor killing in Australia, and it certainly was commited by native Australians, was it? I wonder what the unifying factor is between the murderers in the vast majority of those countries.

Immigrants in the European countries. Muslims, Sikhs, and Christians in Great Britain.

I really don't know if you're implying that the incidents of honor killings in Brazil, Ecuador, and Uganda are committed by Muslims. Or that most of the cases in India are committed by Muslims, excluding Sikhs, Hindus, and of course, Christians. You'd be wrong though if you were.


All of those, except for Muslim Jordan, excuse only murders of passion while catching your wife commiting adultery, and includes murdering the person she is commiting adultery with. A poor example of 'honor killings'. This is different from the cold blooded murder of a relative who has 'shamed' the family, say by being raped. None of the countries (save Muslim Jordan, which allows it for adultery) allow such cold-blooded murder.

It shows that although Muslim Jordan, Muslim Syria, Muslim Morocco, as well as two Christian Latin American countries and Christian Haiti have either had or have these laws.

Of course, none of these countries have laws condoning honor killings, nope not even Muslim Jordan... :rolleyes:


No, it did nothing of the sort. It stated only that police suspected there might be some murders of that sort, and listed no real examples.

You're wrong.

"Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families."

So Scotland Yard is clearly stating that honor killings also occurred in Sikh and Christian families. They believed that 12 occurred in the UK. The syntax isn't tricky, so I wonder why you confused it....

In fact, where was the outrage during this case?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1374605,00.html

This one bears chilling similarities to the initial post:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/10/nhonor10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/03/10/ixportal.html


Officers in east London are considering honour killing as a motive for the murder last month of Anita Gindha, 22, who was heavily pregnant. Mrs Gindha, who was born a Sikh but renounced her religion, was strangled in front of her 18-month-old son.


I don't have to deny arguments that don't exist. You had to bring up laws regarding murders of passion because of adultery as an argument that cold blooded honor killings cross cultures.

Nah, we've seen Scotland Yard's information on it. We've also seen a very good statement that you seemed to overlook in your reply:


The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."


Heck, even Ser Clegane said

I agreed with him on the first part. It was immigrants in Europe.

You omitted this part of his reply though:


While I would not be surprised if the killings in Brazil were not with a muslim background, I would not also not be surprised if the majority of the honor killings in e.g., Great Britain, Italy and Sweden were done by non-natives.

[Papewaio]

Update, :juggle2: not all was as it appears. Trial by media gets it wrong yet again!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20713545-2,00.html


A LOVESICK teenage girl allegedly lured her parents into a bedroom of their Gold Coast unit and blindfolded them for a "surprise" before plunging a knife into each of them, killing her mother and critically wounding her father.

Then in a bizarre twist, the 17-year-old allegedly told police her father had killed her mother who was trying to protect her daughter during a family argument over the daughter's desire to convert to Christianity.

Four and twenty blackbirds...

[Scurvy]

:fainting:

[Crazed Rabbit]

That's...creepy.

CR

[DemonArchangel]

Wow, so umm.... not only did she give her religion and her people a bad name, she's managed to creep me out (a damn difficult thing to do).

[Vladimir]

People remember the headlines and rarely follow up on the story. The shame this girl brought on herself is huge.