Siege Warfare in EB

[-Praetor-]

Hey!

Having witnessed all the aspects of the RTW game that EB mods, I was wondering what are the intentions of the team about modding the siege warfare in the game?

I was researching a little and noticed that (not that I`ve discovered gunpowder BTW :laugh4: ) the Onager was not invented until around 50 BC, and that it was a torsion catapult not a counterweight one. Now, according to EB tradition, i guess you won`t put it into the game... the scorpions also weren`t invented before 100 BC...

The thing is, how will you mod the siege warfare in the mod? In previous post (a very old one BTW) I`ve seen a sketch of a siege engine, a bricolli... but that`s it.

(This one BTW)
http://img150.exs.cx/img150/8030/19pl.jpg

Anyting new, anything you could comment with us? If you cannot show images (which could spoil surprises), no matter, off course it`s understandable, I just wished to know in which manner you want to portray the siege warfare in EB.

Thanks in advance.

PS: Some good drawings of the siege engines I`ve found navigating that I wished to share with the comunity:

Gastrophetes
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/GastrophetesPic.jpg
Oxybeles
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/OxebelesPic.jpg
Another Oxybeles
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/ZopyrusOxybelesPic.jpg
Yet another Oxybeles
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/GreekCatapultaPic.jpg
A Ballista
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/BallistaPic.jpg
The Scorpio
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/RomanCatapultaPic.jpg
Roman Onager
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/OnagerPic.jpg
A Chariot Ballista :inquisitive:
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/CheiroballistaPic.jpg

Those pics and more in this page:

http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/OtherSiegeEngines.htm

[Shigawire]

We have looked at all of this.

Siege warfare is much more elaborate than just artillery. I am the guy responsible for coordinating the "siege warfare" in EB. I've studied ancient siege warfare in numerous books. Studying the matter, I was surprised to find that Artillery was a very minor aspect of ancient siege warfare. Mural artillery didn't actually come into their own until the dark-to-middle ages.. then they were a force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately, due to limitations of the game engine, we cannot yet find ways to realize 90% of our aspirations for the siege warfare. So the only thing we can do is the 10% which is mural artillery. We are in a state of limbo when it comes to the artillery, since other things have gotten higher priorities, and I cannot tell the others what to do.. And on my own, I'm a pretty bad modder. All I know is how siege warfare OUGHT to be represented.. I don't have the technical knowhow of modding to realize this. So I wait until someone in EB can lend me a hand. Though Cunctator and O'ETAIPOS have been doing something. O'ETAIPOS have made some nice unit-cards for the artillery.

50 BC is still too early for the onager, the onager isn't mentioned until Marcellus Ammianus wrote about it in ca 379 AD. We can deduce that it was around for a couple hundred years before that, since at around 100-150 AD, a change occured with these machines and their washer-frames.

We will have mural artillery, in the form of stone projectors.
Both huge and medium. Megas Lithobolos and Lithobolos.
These are more complicated machines.

The onager was a natural evolution because it was simpler to operate and fix, as it only had 1 washer-frame instead of 2. And, due to its sling, it had slightly greater range.

When we get our major milestones out of the way, we will see where we go from here. So stay tuned.

[Olaf The Great]

Gastrophetes seems interesting, I have a book on ancient battle tatics, and as it turns out, the Greeks used Crossbows, I forgot what they were named, but they look like the Gastrophetes.


Did the Greeks use them? Or was it just a weapon that really got nowhere.

[Shigawire]

Gastrophetes a weapon that didn't go anywhere?

My man! This weapon was the world's first catapult! It went places! :2thumbsup:

It was devised by a major Research & Development effort under the auspices of King Dionysios of Syrakosion. In 398 BC it was used for the first time, when Dionysios attacked and razed against the main Carthaginian supply base in Sicilia, namely Motya.

The purpose of the Katapeltai (Gastraphete and its relatives) was to make the enemy's shields "obsolete." Kata-peltai literally and etymologically means "to-the-shields" or "against-the-shields."

At Motya, Dionysios was faced with a unique situation, very similar to the one facing Alexandros at Tyros, some 60-70 years later. The fortified Punic colonial base of Motya was impenetrable by normal means. It was on an island, with no connection to the land except for a very long and narrow causeway. Very similar situation to what Alexandros faced with Tyros. The batteries of katapeltai allowed his men to pour intense "covering fire" down on the walls, while his engineers and soldiers could approach the walls more safely..
After Motya was razed, Carthage moved its main supply base to Lilibeo/Lilybaeum.

Later it developed into a mural artillery, for knocking down walls..

[Olaf The Great]

Gastrophetes a weapon that didn't go anywhere?

My man! This weapon was the world's first catapult! It went places! :2thumbsup:

It was devised by a major Research & Development effort under the auspices of King Dionysios of Syrakosion. In 398 BC it was used for the first time, when Dionysios attacked and razed against the main Carthaginian supply base in Sicilia, namely Motya.

The purpose of the Katapeltai (Gastraphete and its relatives) was to make the enemy's shields "obsolete." Kata-peltai literally and etymologically means "to-the-shields" or "against-the-shields."

At Motya, Dionysios was faced with a unique situation, very similar to the one facing Alexandros at Tyros, some 60-70 years later. The fortified Punic colonial base of Motya was impenetrable by normal means. It was on an island, with no connection to the land except for a very long and narrow causeway. Very similar situation to what Alexandros faced with Tyros. The batteries of katapeltai allowed his men to pour intense "covering fire" down on the walls, while his engineers and soldiers could approach the walls more safely..
After Motya was razed, Carthage moved its main supply base to Lilibeo/Lilybaeum.

Later it developed into a mural artillery, for knocking down walls..
I assume the belly bow is the Gastrophenes?
Would the Greek "Crossbow" be implemented in 8.0
*Hoping Telekos will reveal another hint here*

How big was it compared to the handler?

[-Praetor-]

How big was it compared to the handler?

Well, you could compare with the curvature of the "U" shaped bracket in the rear part of the device:

http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/GastrophetesPic.jpg

Imagine that that curvature is to adapt to one`s belly, so, comparing, that thing should be about...

:juggle2:

2 meters perhaps? Off course, bellys`s size vary from man to man :beam:

[O'ETAIPOS]

Gastraphetes was about 1 meter in lenght.

We are not plannig this unit. Instead we will have 2 bolt throwing and 2 stone throwing trorsion machines. Romans after Marian will also get slightly better ones in all 4 categories.

The only problem, that we are yet to find way of implementing new machines, so in v 0.8 we will only have proper cards, and 3D graphic will be vanilla.

[Shigawire]

I assume the belly bow is the Gastrophenes?
Would the Greek "Crossbow" be implemented in 8.0
*Hoping Telekos will reveal another hint here*

How big was it compared to the handler?

No, the Gastraphete is obsolete in EB's timeframe. What I meant is that all subsequent catapults were derived from the design of the gatraphete. It was the first catapult/katapeltai, though its purpose was not to knock down walls. Because the word actually means "against-shields."

It was fairly big. I have a rendering of it in one of my ancient siege warfare books. Just imagine the user putting his belly on the curved rear part, using his weight to reload it. It was reloaded with the belly.. hence "gastra-phete", gastra, gastronomical u c? :yes:


Here is one type of large Greek stone projector we will eventually endeavour to make. This one is based on the more expensive Palintonon frame, thus stone-artillery was often referred to as "Palintonon" - though this was not always the case. Some bolt-artillery could also use the Palintonon-frame..

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/images/Palintonon.gif


And that is peanuts compared to Archimedes' 3-Talent stone projector. :skull:

[fallen851]

Does RTR have siege weapons like the ones described above?

[Olaf The Great]

So Gastrophetes are more of a mini-ballista rather then a early crossbow.

I think I understand.

[Tanit]

Also wondering here if EB will be implementing unique racial versions of siege engines like rams. I have seen stuff on how this can be implemented and was curious as to wheter EB had looked into it.

[Shigawire]

Tanit, oh? Care to elaborate?

[Olaf The Great]

Tanit, oh? Care to elaborate?
In Rtr the siege engines had culture specific skins.

[Shigawire]

Oh that.. got confused when he was talking about "racial" siege machines. :laugh4:

Yeah that's the general idea..

[Tanit]

So EB will be looking, at some time, into making different siege engines?

@Shigawire: My error, sorry to confuse you.

[Shigawire]

Tanit, that is correct.

[BozosLiveHere]

IIRC, the different rams and stuff the guys at RTR use were made by CA but for some unknown reason were not used in vanilla. All you had to do to get them was edit the siege engine text file so that they are referenced.

[paullus]

the palintonon is much larger than I had thought it would need to be to launch stones that size. I excavated katapeltai stones roughly that size (comparative to the stone in the illustration) at a relatively small site, and would not have imagined the machine launching them would have been so large. wow.

[Tanit]

I excavated katapeltai stones roughly that size (comparative to the stone in the illustration)

You lucky, lucky......:furious3: :shame:

:laugh4:

I'm in archaeology :2thumbsup: and was wondering where you got to excavate those stones?

[Shigawire]

the palintonon is much larger than I had thought it would need to be to launch stones that size. I excavated katapeltai stones roughly that size (comparative to the stone in the illustration) at a relatively small site, and would not have imagined the machine launching them would have been so large. wow.

As Tanit says, it sounds like a fun job. :2thumbsup:


The Palintonon is nothing compared to the 3-talent stone projector.
79-kg stones. This machine was used in Epimachus' "Helepolis" at Rhodos.
First floor.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/9645/Ogre/Helepolis.jpg

I think that CA did a shoddy job on the artillery in RTW in terms of historical research. But technically they did a pretty good job when considering the fact that theirs was the first game to have 3d-modelled soldiers walking up the stairs of a siege tower, and then onto the wall. Pretty detailed..

But sooo much missing from siege warfare.. artillery is just a tiny tiny part of it, especially at this point in history. Hopefully M2TW will allow more! :yes:

knock on wood:smash:

[Wardo]

:idea2:

So that's where the Tower Chess piece comes from! :clown:

[Tellos Athenaios]

:dizzy2:

Those people who had to push, weren't exactly the luckiest dogs in the world...

Do you've got a picture of Archimedes' masterpiece as well?

[Tellos Athenaios]

A Chariot Ballista :inquisitive:
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/OtherSiegeEngines/Full/CheiroballistaPic.jpg


Not Chariot Ballista, but 'Hand/Arm Ballista'.

[Shigawire]

Not Chariot Ballista, but 'Hand/Arm Ballista'.

The manuballista:
http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Aitor/SMALL/oscarSML.jpg



Those people who had to push, weren't exactly the luckiest dogs in the world...
Most of the time they didn't PUSH, but DRAG. ~:) It isn't certain how the propulsion of siege towers worked, but one of the more convincing theories hold that there was a pully-system set up in front of the siege tower, and that they dragged the ropes backwards to get the machine forward. They also believe oxen were used for this task sometimes.
By the way, I saw a show on Discovery where they recreated a small siege tower at around 5-6 meters (Epimachus' Helepolis was 43 meters), they were amazed at the ease with which it rolled once the ground underneath was prepared and flattened.


Do you've got a picture of Archimedes' masterpiece as well?

Well, I don't have a rendition of Archimedes' 3-talent lithobolos..
But Epimachus' Helepolis also had a 3-talen lithobolos in its first floor.
I have a book with a rendition of this, I can scan it.


So that's where the Tower Chess piece comes from!

In more ways than one! Why do you think the "rook" or "tower" can only move in a straight line? Because the besiegers had to prepare a "runway" for the siegetower many weeks in advance, up to the enemy wall. It could only move forward or backward. It couldn't rotate like it can in RTW.. this is something that annoys me in RTW. :yes:

[Lusitani]

Perhaps they used animals like ox's to push it ...

[Tellos Athenaios]

That idea of pushing of mine came from looking at the picture: I noticed something similar to what's used in ships to raise the anchor.



I saw a show on Discovery where they recreated a small siege tower at around 5-6 meters (Epimachus' Helepolis was 43 meters), they were amazed at the ease with which it rolled once the ground underneath was prepared and flattened.


Well, if you compare the 43 meter monster with the 'tiny' 5 - 6 version: just think of the fact that it needed much, much more square meters, just to keep it from falling. Probably something like 49 or more times more, and that just to keep it up when it was finished - thus without the extra bits that would have been needed to provide for the means of getting it to move, and the extra pressure when people start to use it.


In more ways than one! Why do you think the "rook" or "tower" can only move in a straight line? Because the besiegers had to prepare a "runway" for the siegetower many weeks in advance, up to the enemy wall. It could only move forward or backward. It couldn't rotate like it can in RTW.. this is something that annoys me in RTW. :yes:

If they'd tried rotating the thing, it would have rolled over...

[Olaf The Great]

In more ways than one! Why do you think the "rook" or "tower" can only move in a straight line? Because the besiegers had to prepare a "runway" for the siegetower many weeks in advance, up to the enemy wall. It could only move forward or backward. It couldn't rotate like it can in RTW.. this is something that annoys me in RTW. :yes:[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm..EB Chess?

[MSB]

Imagine that that curvature is to adapt to one`s belly, so, comparing, that thing should be about...

2 meters perhaps? Off course, bellys`s size vary from man to man :beam:
It was actually nicknamed "The Belly Bow" and I think that is what Gastrophetes translates as, however I am in no way sure.

[Shigawire]

Yes Avlvs, it's been stated numerous times in this thread what it meant.

Here are the renditions people requested.

Gastraphete and flexion-based Katapeltikon (as opposed to the later torsion-based) - from ca 399 BC - before the siege of Motya.
https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7324/earlybowmachinesiy1.jpg


This is a torsion-based katapeltikon, and is purely speculative. We do not know for sure if they were actually used in windows of towers and walls like this. But a farmstead in Ephyra (modern Turkey) suggests this possibility.
As you can see, this is torsion-based contrary to the earlier flexion-machines.

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1079/ephyratorsionlv3.jpg



The 'sambyke' (latin sambuca) was an ingenious device invented which took a hybrid approach between the superior protection of a siege tower with the simplicity of a ladder. It was first attributed by Biton to an otherwise unknown engineer called Damios, in Kolophon - present-day Turkey.
It was also mounted on ships by the Romans, allowing them to march right up Syracuse's seaside walls eventually killing the genius Archimedes.

https://img128.imageshack.us/img128/2797/sambucaao6.jpg


Remember when I spoke about preparing the runway for the siege-towers?
Here are the machines they used to do this. They were called "tortoise", or "testudo" in Latin, "chelone" in Greek. Their main work was to fill in ditches.. secondary assignment was to flatten the terrain. This took 2-3 weeks beforehand. Depending on the available manpower, and the size and number of towers.

https://img45.imageshack.us/img45/8741/cheloneck1.jpg



You people asked for renditions of the 3-talent stone projector.
First, I have reiterated time and again that I do not have renditions of Archimedes' 3-talent machine, so I don't understand why people keep asking.
But I do have a rendition of Demetrios' 3-talent stone projector. This was at least 50 years before the birth of Archimedes.

First, to introduce this mammoth artillery, you people surely remember the Helepolis (taker-of-cities) built by Epimachos the Athenian, built for Demetrios I Poliorketes (King of Macedon)? It was built in around 305 BC.. for the siege of Rhodos.

https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2420/helepolisofepimachosjf0.jpg

This is a more likely rendition of it than the first one I showed you.

Allright, now you remember the machine. You can even see the cows pulling the ropes backwards around the pullies in the front, which pulls the machine forward.

The 3-talent stone projector I keep talking about. The largest stone-projector ever built, you can find THREE of these in the first floor of that siege tower. I believe Epimachos, the man who engineered the siegetower, also oversaw the construction of these three 3-talent stone projectors.

This is a rendition of the close-up, from inside the bowels of the Helepolis.

https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4434/3talentprojectorvh6.jpg

[Tellos Athenaios]

These machines really look like some evil genius has been let loose...

But there's something a bit strange about them: how could they possibly remain intact for any but the slightest length of time? I mean, it looks like that if one threw a stone against those 'hybrid' machines, the machines would crash to the ground. And the Helepolis seems to be extremely heavy, yet there don't seem to be much of a solid frame that can handle that pressure.

[Shigawire]

Well, according to this peer-reviewed journal:

David Whitehead, P.H. Blyth, Athenaeus Mechanicus, On Machines. Historia-Einzelschrift, 182. Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag, 2004. Pp. 236; figs. 23. ISBN 3-515-08532-7. €40.00 (pb).

Reviewed by Duncan B. Campbell, Glasgow


The final machine in W & B's 'good practice' section is the helepolis of Epimachus (II.9), the largest siege-tower of antiquity, described by Athenaeus in rather abbreviated form. W & B concentrate on Athenaeus' remark that the tower could withstand blows from a three-talent stone-projector. The point of the comment is surely that this is the heaviest blow that Athenaeus could imagine, although the rather more technically-minded Philon held the opinion that the one-talent machine was far more to be feared. Of course, the helepolis itself was equipped with various catapults, prompting W & B's anxiety about vibrations (137, 190), but there is nothing, either in the ancient sources or in the practical design of the catapult, to encourage the belief that such machines recoiled violently after each shot. On the contrary, any residual energy not carried forward by the missile was dissipated along the bow-string and absorbed in the machine's substantial timberwork.