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IRONxMortlock
10-24-2006, 07:59
EDIT - Doh! Mistakes in the title! Should read: Is a purposeful campaign to demonise Muslims being launched?

I've seen so many sensationalised stories in the media recently about Muslims that it's really starting to get suspicious. I'd been thinking about creating a thread like this for awhile but today I read this article (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/102306A.shtml) and it sums up what I've been feeling very well.

Long Black Veil: Tony Blair's Dangerous Game of Muslim-Bashing
By Chris Floyd, TO UK Correspondent
t r u t h o u t | Report

Monday 23 October 2006

I

For centuries in Britain, each sentence of death was accompanied by a strange ritual. Before handing down the verdict, the judge would first take a piece of black silk cloth and put it on his head. With this rather bizarre and ancient drapery covering his powdered wig - itself a relic, a cultural fossil carried into modern times - he would then render the prisoner into the hangman's care.

In such a guise, the black cloth once represented the full, dread measure of state power. Today, however, a cloth of similar size, shape and color - worn across the faces of a small number of some of the most vulnerable members of British society - has become a target of that same dread power, after Britain's high and mighty unleashed a sudden, thunderous sneak attack on the nation's Muslim minority, centering the campaign around the tabloid-ready symbol of the veil.

But although the carefully orchestrated furor over this seldom-seen scrap of material has been so ludicrously disproportionate that even the Blair-fawning New York Times cried foul in a recent editorial, the campaign - and its disturbing implications - go far beyond the issue of religious vestments. Indeed, the veil row is just a covering for what appears to be a deliberate, wide-ranging program of diversion and division, aimed at creating a scapegoat - "strangers in our midst," "the enemy within" - to bear the blame for the sins of the Blair government: the fear, repression, guilt, lies and rancor produced by the abomination in Iraq.

The anti-Muslim campaign is not merely rhetorical - although the heated rhetoric from Tony Blair and many of his ministers has certainly been bad enough, giving a patina of respectability to more extremist viewpoints, now seen as a legitimate part of the "national debate. (Much as the button-pushing imbroglio over immigration in the United States has transformed fringe white-power advocates into respectable media figures, lauded by the likes of Lou Dobbs and Arnold Schwarzenegger, and welcomed in the halls of Congress.) No, Blair's Islamophobia-fest has bite with its bark: not only the on-going evisceration of civil liberties, which has fallen almost entirely on British Muslims, but new measures as well - such as the Stasi-like plan to induce university professors and staff to spy on Muslim students and report all "suspicious" behavior to the security organs.

The plan, uncovered by the Guardian on October 16, has already been sent to "selected official bodies for consultation" and will be foisted on Britain's universities in December. It acknowledges the fact that the program will make academics feel they are "collaborating with the 'secret police,'" but still urges university staff to be pro-active in their spying and informing on the activities of "Asian-looking students." (In British parlance, "Asian" usually denotes someone of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi descent.)

Far from being abashed by this revelation, the Blair government has openly embraced the program. To be sure, Education Minister Ruth Kelly - a member of the zealous religious order, Opus Dei - says it's not really spying; it's just "monitoring" the activities of certain students in order to "protect" them from extremists. But for some reason, Kelly's maternal concern has failed to allay the fears of those captured in the state's benevolent, all-seeing eye.

The program is "potentially the widest infringement of the rights of Muslim students that there ever has been in this country," Wakkas Khan, president of a national Islamic student group, told the Guardian. "It is clearly targeting Muslim students and treating them to a higher level of suspicion and scrutiny. It sounds like you're guilty until you're proven innocent."

Here, of course, Khan has defined the organizing principle of the Bush-Blair "War on Terror," where thousands have disappeared into prisons and torture rooms without charges, without defense, and very often without any evidence whatsoever, beyond perhaps the word of a paid snitch, a bounty hunter, a personal enemy or an over-zealous security op looking to make his bones. Blair, like Bush with his warrantless surveillance program (to cite just one of many tyrannical examples), is simply bringing the Terror War home.

II

What is surprising, however, is the suddenness of the current campaign, and its blunt, even coarse nature. It exploded out of nowhere with an article in a small regional paper, an October 6 column written by the local MP, Jack Straw - leader of the House of Commons and former foreign secretary. In the latter capacity he was one of the prime enablers of the illegal invasion of Iraq, serving as a key conduit between Blair and Bush as they connived to manipulate their nations into war - a deceitful process well-documented by the Downing Street Memos.

In his column, this paragon of moral rectitude complained about veiled women coming to his office seeking constituent services. The fact that he couldn't see their faces made him feel all wiggly, Straw said (in so many words), and he found it hard to communicate with them. They should all just stop it. In fact, UK Muslims in general should stop being so strange and separate, and try much harder to assimilate further into British society.

As was no doubt intended, Straw's comments instantly ricocheted around the national media, where they conveniently knocked the frenzy of violence and chaos in Iraq off the front pages. The article also dovetailed, again most conveniently, with another minor story, about a young teaching assistant who had been fired for refusing to remove her veil in front of male colleagues, although she didn't wear it in front of students. Another Blair cabinet minister leapt showily into this strictly local matter, backing the school's action - even as yet another Blair minister publicly denounced British Airways for demanding that a Christian flight attendant remove her cross while on duty. BA actually prohibits the wearing of all jewellery on chains by attendants, not just crosses, but this point of fact was lost in the fine media frothing about the airline's "religious discrimination" against Christians - jeremiads that appeared alongside angry calls for "banning the veil."

As the days went by, more Blair ministers joined the fray, which spread from attacks on the veil to stern lectures on the Muslim community's stubborn refusal to integrate properly and its collective failure to denounce terrorism with sufficient self-abasing rigor. These grievous shortcomings were leading to "dangerous divisions" in British society, the Blairites said, and fuelling the alarming rise of hard-right factions like the British National Party.

Here was an echo of old hate-mongering campaigns. Who was responsible for Germans' hatred of the Jews, according to the Nazis? Why, the Jews themselves, of course, swanning around with their weird get-ups and strange rituals and their terrorist conspiracies. As Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland noted this week, "I try to imagine how I would feel if this rainstorm of headlines substituted the word 'Jew' for 'Muslim' - I wouldn't just feel frightened. I would be looking for my passport."

Tory leaders - sensing that Blair was, once again, outflanking them from the right - leapt into the breach. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, berated Muslims for fostering an "involuntary apartheid," adding that their intransigence was breeding national division that "could corrode our society." The security organs also got in on the act, with a leak to the Times about an unnamed "terrorist suspect" who avoided capture for a few days "by allegedly disguising" himself in a burka.

Meanwhile, Tony Blair - the most ostentatiously Christian prime minister in Britain since William Gladstone prowled the streets in his off-hours looking for prostitutes to save - kept quiet for days as the official furor grew and eventually, inevitably, spilled into the streets. Attacks on Muslims sharply increased, the Independent noted. One mosque was set on fire, another was battered by a brick- throwing mob, who then stabbed a Muslim teenager. Several Muslim women had veils torn from their faces in the street, while verbal assaults and threats escalated.

Finally, Blair broke his silence in order to ... calm the storm? call for unity and tolerance? urge the nation to move on to more important matters? No, of course not. Instead, he heaped more coals on the fire, at one point even refusing point-blank to say that a Muslim woman in a veil could make a contribution to society. "That's a very difficult question," he said. Having thus segregated these women from the rest of society, relegating them to the status of useless parasites, he went on to denounce the veil as a "mark of separation."

Blair's hypocrisy here is compounded by the fact that he is probably more responsible that any other individual for fostering religious divisions in British society today. He has lavished state funding on a vast expansion of "faith-based" schools, each under the rule of single religion - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Greek Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventist - excluding most children of other faiths. Yet it is a 24-year-old teaching assistant in a veil - not Blair - who is fostering religious "separatism."

At every turn, it seemed, the British Establishment - an overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male, closely-knit network drawn almost entirely from a tiny group of elite schools and universities, and ensconced in unassailable sway and privilege, including the full, dread power of the state - was condemning a tiny, overwhelmingly powerless minority for the social and political ills of the nation.

III

But what is the true context of this asymmetrical "debate?" The numbers tell the story. There are approximately 1.6 Muslims in Britain - 3 percent out of a total population of more than 60 million. And of this miniscule minority, only 5 percent of British Muslim women wear the veil. In other words, this "mark of separation" that is now, suddenly, "corroding" British society is actually rejected by 95 percent of all Muslim women. It plays almost no part in Muslim life in Britain.

Nor does any kind of tolerance for violent extremism. An extensive survey of British Muslims just released - to almost zero notice - by the 1990 Trust shows that the number of those who believe that terrorist attacks are "justifiable" is between 1 and 2 percent. (You could probably find a higher percentage of Americans who believed that terrorism against, say, the "Zionist Occupation Government" or illegal immigrants or abortion clinics - or Muslims - was justified.) Violence and extremism are thus rejected by 98 percent of all British Muslims; but evidently this is not good enough for Blair and his ministers.

Terrorism by Islamic extremists poses a real threat, of course, although in Britain, case after case of ballyhooed terror scares and high-profile SWAT team raids have turned out to be false alarms, in which one innocent man (a no-doubt "Asian-looking" Brazilian) has been killed and two other innocent men have been wounded. But this threat pales in comparison to the decades-long terror campaign waged in Britain by Irish nationalists, which, when added to the government's "counter-terrorism measures," killed more than 3,600 people - and was supported by a substantially larger margin than 1 to 2 percent of Britain's "Irish community." The assimilation of "Asian" Muslims into British society has in fact been far more successful, more peaceful - and more voluntary - than the centurieslong, still-ongoing struggle to integrate the Irish "minority."

Moreover, the campaign is clearly counter-productive. If you make the veil a primary symbol of Muslim identity - and then lambaste the Muslim community as a whole - you are thus ensuring that more women will take up the veil, as a symbol of defiance and pride in their community when it is under attack. You will strengthen the hand of the very extremists you profess to be rooting out from society, while fanning the flames of racial hatred among the majority ethnic group: a major strategic mistake.

That's assuming, of course, that your actual goal is a well-functioning, tolerant, peaceful society. If however, your real aim is to use fear and suspicion in a desperate bid to stay in power, why then, this deadly game of Muslim-bashing is a master stroke.

Thus the launching of this campaign of demonization and diversion is no mystery. As the "War on Terror" loses its effectiveness as a fearmongering political tool for the Bushist-Blairite axis - as it is more and more discounted by the British and American publics who can clearly see that it has been used to justify a horrendously murderous war in Iraq and the destruction of civil liberties at home - the "Coalition" leaders are having to resort to more and more primitive methods to keep accountability at bay.

After all, we are talking about two highly unpopular political factions with the blood of more than half a million Iraqis - and thousands of their own soldiers - on their hands. To sustain themselves in power, they cannot appeal to the truth, which damns them; they cannot appeal to morality, which shames them; they cannot appeal to their national ideals of liberty and openness, which they have trampled and discarded.

They have nothing left to offer but fear - fear of the "other," fear of the strange, fear of minorities, fear of a woman walking down the street with a black veil over her face.

Chris Floyd is an American journalist. His weekly political column, "Global Eye," ran in the Moscow Times from 1996 to 2006. His work has appeared in print and online in venues all over the world, including The Nation, Counterpunch, Columbia Journalism Review, the Christian Science Monitor, Il Manifesto, the Bergen Record and many others. His story on Pentagon plans to foment terrorism won a Project Censored award in 2003. He is the author of "Empire Burlesque: High Crimes and Low Comedy in the Bush Imperium," and is co-founder and editor of the "Empire Burlesque" political blog.


It would appear muslims are being setup to be scapegoats but for what reason? Could it be to convince the population they need to give away more of their freedoms to the government and allow it more power over their lives?

Justiciar
10-24-2006, 08:49
Purposeful? No. Incidental? Yes.

BigTex
10-24-2006, 09:25
Why not. JFK was killed by 3 bullets. The jews secretly control the world. The templars treasure is hidden in New England. President Madison was gay. Elvis is still alive. Emelia Earheart was taken by alliens. Area 51 is home to a exterestrial colony. This may assist you, http://peyote.org/. The ark of the kovanent is located in syria. The invasion of iraq was for oil. The X-Files was a documentary. Hitler was stout vegetarian. Winston Churchil had a fling with the Queen......
_________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

BigTex
Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

Fragony
10-24-2006, 09:36
These guys are good, they think they are holding adds for falafals, oh boy

http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam2.jpg

Idaho
10-24-2006, 09:55
Yeah but that group of people pictured account for about 40 people in the whole country - and half of them are probably MI5 :grin:

Scurvy
10-24-2006, 10:22
Of course not, it's just recently there has been a fair bit if muslim/western friction which stems from various roots... certainly not a purposeful campaign :2thumbsup:

IRONxMortlock
10-24-2006, 10:57
Yes, perhaps there's no campaign to dehumanise Muslims? The media just panders to what an ignorant and xenophobic population demands?

However in the article provided above, the following statement is made:

What is surprising, however, is the suddenness of the current campaign, and its blunt, even coarse nature. It exploded out of nowhere with an article in a small regional paper, an October 6 column written by the local MP, Jack Straw - leader of the House of Commons and former foreign secretary... In his column, this paragon of moral rectitude complained about veiled women coming to his office seeking constituent services. The fact that he couldn't see their faces made him feel all wiggly, Straw said (in so many words), and he found it hard to communicate with them. They should all just stop it. In fact, UK Muslims in general should stop being so strange and separate, and try much harder to assimilate further into British society.

As was no doubt intended, Straw's comments instantly ricocheted around the national media, where they conveniently knocked the frenzy of violence and chaos in Iraq off the front pages. The article also dovetailed, again most conveniently, with another minor story, about a young teaching assistant who had been fired for refusing to remove her veil in front of male colleagues, although she didn't wear it in front of students. Another Blair cabinet minister leapt showily into this strictly local matter, backing the school's action - even as yet another Blair minister publicly denounced British Airways for demanding that a Christian flight attendant remove her cross while on duty. BA actually prohibits the wearing of all jewellery on chains by attendants, not just crosses, but this point of fact was lost in the fine media frothing about the airline's "religious discrimination" against Christians - jeremiads that appeared alongside angry calls for "banning the veil."

I agree with the author that Straw's comments were intended to make headlines. The question is what was the motive? Would having the 5% of Muslim women who wear the full veil stop doing so really improve relations between ethinic communities in his constituiency? I feel that there must be another explanation.

Fragony
10-24-2006, 11:03
How about sparking a much needed discussion, that could be the motive. Personally I think the exact opposite is true, the media could write a whole lot more, subjects galore. Like the almost civil war in paris.

Scurvy
10-24-2006, 11:24
I agree with the author that Straw's comments were intended to make headlines. The question is what was the motive? Would having the 5% of Muslim women who wear the full veil stop doing so really improve relations between ethinic communities in his constituiency? I feel that there must be another explanation.

I agree, Straw made his comments hoping to start a dialogue between the muslim community and the rest of the general population. The problem was the timing, at the moment the government isnt too popular with the worldwide muslim community - i suspect with the case of the veil muslims would have been more willing to change 5-10 years ago.

Frag: For once the media have got it right, they realize that the best thing for muslim relations is good media coverage, and that by having too many anti-islam articles they would start to look xenophobic (i honestly cant spell that). + the riots in France don't really effect us :2thumbsup:

Reenk Roink
10-24-2006, 12:10
It's all about what gets reported/covered widely and what doesn't... (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1019/p01s03-wome.html)


CAIRO – Sohail Nakhooda says Islam has a problem getting its message heard.

Thirty-eight Muslim scholars from 20 countries sent a letter to Pope Benedict XVI urging mutual tolerance and respect over the weekend, and 500 prominent Muslims signed a religious ruling rejecting violence against civilians on Tuesday. Neither got much publicity. (my emphasis)


But when Al Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, issues his latest bloodcurdling threat it dominates the airwaves. Mr. Nakhoodas doesn't deny that a problem exists inside Islam, but says that a violent fringe is coming to represent the whole of the religion in Western eyes.

macsen rufus
10-24-2006, 12:19
xenophobic (i honestly cant spell that)

.... honestly, you can :2thumbsup:

Jubilation T Cornpone
10-24-2006, 13:22
Yes, there is. I just can't understand why Muslims would do that to themselves. You'd think they had enough problems without starting that sort of campaign....

Navaros
10-24-2006, 13:57
Society makes it "cool" to demonize Muslims as long as it is done discreetly and without using overt language. Any demonizing of Muslims done in a "wink wink, nudge nudge" kind of way is the cool thing to do according to most people in this day and age.

Purposeful campaigns to demonize Muslims happen all the time, they are just veiled under cagey language.

Lemur
10-24-2006, 14:13
I just don't know about this one. If you have a group of people within your nation who have a few cultural practices that are, I dunno, against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage) the (http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/432) law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing), and they harbor a tiny minority who, I dunno, want to kill everybody, how would you know when the demonization started?

As for the veil, I don't want to sound like an American blowhard, but immigrants should expect to adapt to their host culture, not the other way around. If I moved to Britain from the U.S., should I be allowed to carry firearms because that's part of my culture? Or should I be a big boy, and adapt to my new country?

And why exactly are the British so afraid of offending Salafists? It's not like they don't want to drink your blood already ...

Don Corleone
10-24-2006, 14:13
SIx months ago there was an outcry and several thread whining and moaning about how Tony Blair and the rest of New Labour had handed over the keys to the Kingdom by appointing several prominent muslims to the role of 'advisor' to try to help improve muslim-anglo relations. Now you're all jumping over to the other side, claiming that the New Labour government is really out to get the Muslims? Which is it?

Did I miss something?

P. S. You may not have noticed, but each of the three link words in Lemur's post is a separate link.

Redleg
10-24-2006, 14:15
Society makes it "cool" to demonize Muslims as long as it is done discreetly and without using overt language. Any demonizing of Muslims done in a "wink wink, nudge nudge" kind of way is the cool thing to do according to most people in this day and age.

Purposeful campaigns to demonize Muslims happen all the time, they are just veiled under cagey language.

Well don't you find its a little more discreet then the language from certain clerics of Islam who demonize the west, and have done so for a number of years?"

yesdachi
10-24-2006, 14:21
I don’t think there is any organized campaign against Muslims but I do think there are more people getting disgusted with the actions of the radical Muslims in their areas and speaking out. The majority of people don’t like the increasingly violent Muslim situation and their representative government is letting them down by not dealing with it, now is not the time for political correctness. If this problem is not addressed with drastic action very soon all of Europe will burn in civil war just like the suburbs of Paris do now. Don’t believe me just ask a French policeman, if you can find one that is alive.

The longer the representative governments of the western world ignore the people they represent, more of them will abandon their current political party and seek out parties of action, like the radical “white” parties who many people don’t like everything about but they do at least like their aggressive desire to confront the radical Muslim situation. The people will not stand for the week face of their current governments, but it may be too late. Without swift action history books will paint these days as the beginning of the great religious/race wars that are sure to come.

In order for multiculturalism to work the cultures must desire assimilation without assimilation multiculturalism will fail and with the increasing percentages of immigrants, civil war is almost guaranteed. Immigrants must be assimilated or drastically dealt with, I am not suggesting killed (but I’m sure many will if action is not soon taken) but rather evicted or given their own land or something drastic, there will be no easy or popular answer but one needs to be given. :2cents:

Devastatin Dave
10-24-2006, 14:25
So its not really the Muslim terrorists that are causing all these problems around the world, it's a campaign within the media, government bodies, etc, that are causing Muslims to be demonised.
Wow, that makes about as much sense as volunteering to retrieve dead qual at a Dick Cheney hunting party.
Maybe we should ask the French police force who've been attacked over the past year about the campaign to demonise Muslims. I say we publish our findings in cartoon form, Dutch style and bring marshmellows for the flames that will certainly follow.
Nah, Muslims (the "radical" type, I guess) are doing a fine job of demonising themselves without our help.:yes:

Fragony
10-24-2006, 14:29
It's not necesary that they assimilate per se, we aren't the borg collective. Just behave, and don't expect any special treatment because of your believes. Can't get a job in a stripclub with a burqa, accept it. There is no need to demonise (western)muslims, they are much better at doing that theirselves with their seemingly complete lack of respect for anything that isn't islamic. We have a big hindu community as well, never noticed them. Sometimes there is a wedding here and a lot show up.

Spetulhu
10-24-2006, 14:46
So its not really the Muslim terrorists that are causing all these problems around the world, it's a campaign within the media, government bodies, etc, that are causing Muslims to be demonised.


Probably not an organized effort as much as the old "bad news sell" effect. You don't hear much about the reasonable ones because they don't make noise and that's just not newsworthy.

macsen rufus
10-24-2006, 16:31
There is certainly something going on amongst our (UK's) police forces -- note the recent "leaks" regarding the no Ramadan arrests and won't guard Israeli embassy "stories", both of which were designed to stir up anti-Muslim feeling, and both of which HAD TO have come from serving police officers. Seems like the attitudes of the bad old days haven't been completely "politically corrected", after all.

Certainly people are more ready to extend the vices of Muslim terrorists and extremists to all Muslims than they were to blame, for example, all Irish people for the excesses of the IRA or INLA.

yesdachi
10-24-2006, 16:34
There is certainly something going on amongst our (UK's) police forces -- note the recent "leaks" regarding the no Ramadan arrests and won't guard Israeli embassy "stories", both of which were designed to stir up anti-Muslim feeling, and both of which HAD TO have come from serving police officers. Seems like the attitudes of the bad old days haven't been completely "politically corrected", after all.

Certainly people are more ready to extend the vices of Muslim terrorists and extremists to all Muslims than they were to blame, for example, all Irish people for the excesses of the IRA or INLA.
If they are not actively opposing them it is easy to draw lines connecting them.

macsen rufus
10-24-2006, 17:10
Easy .... but wrong

Reenk Roink
10-24-2006, 17:26
If they are not actively opposing them it is easy to draw lines connecting them.

This is the exact same logic that bin Laden uses to justify attacks on American civilians...

Sasaki Kojiro
10-24-2006, 18:10
This is the exact same logic that bin Laden uses to justify attacks on American civilians...

https://img63.imageshack.us/img63/5854/zingjk3.jpg

yesdachi
10-24-2006, 18:12
This is the exact same logic that bin Laden uses to justify attacks on American civilians...
From his perspective he is right. Praise Ala.

Fragony
10-24-2006, 18:19
From his perspective he is right. Praise Ala.

From his perspective there aren't any innocent muslims either then, Bin Laden lead the way.

Prince of the Poodles
10-24-2006, 22:02
I would think the only campaign being launched to demonize muslims is being launched by the muslims themselves.

Bombing high rises, cutting peoples heads off, rioting for no reason, and generally being the troublemakers of the world are not good for a group's public image. :idea2:

Scurvy
10-24-2006, 22:04
here's the problem, you have to differentiate between muslims and muslim extremists

rory_20_uk
10-24-2006, 22:16
What is an extremist? IMO demanding to wear a veil at all times is extreme.
As are religious leaders who demand the death of writers.
There are far more barbaric countries that are Muslim than any other single ideal (excluding areas of anarchy).

I Ken Livingstone said that we're obviously picking on Muslims as we're not asking Jews to take off skullcaps, Christians to take off crosses etc. He managed to miss that many mslims cover thier hair - and no one has said that is a problem. It's merely the veil.

"Hoodies" can be attacked by all, and they are fair game. Those that wear a far more alienating garment can't be as obviously we're against the religion.

Stop playing the man, not the ball. I am against anyone that goes around wearing something that obscures their face. Be that a baraclava / motorbke helmet / veil. Muslims at the moment are bieng the most obstinate and non compliant regarding respecting the countries that they came to of their own free will.

~:smoking:

Scurvy
10-24-2006, 22:55
so your saying all muslims are extremists?

Mooks
10-24-2006, 23:50
I dont think we need to try to demonise muslims. They are doing that themselves for us.

Crazed Rabbit
10-25-2006, 00:36
A pathetic article; a biased editorial, written by a biased person for a biased organization that makes a mountain out of a molehill.

Jack Straw saying maybe Muslim women shouldn't wear veils is demonizing them?

Talk about making a huge mountain out of a molehill. Unsurprisingly, the author also throws in the obligatory Nazi reference and accuses people criticising wearing of the veil of being similar to hating Jews. Not to mention, he also distorts the truth behind the British Airlines and Cross incident.


This is the exact same logic that bin Laden uses to justify attacks on American civilians...

No, it isn't. He justifies any and all attacks against the west because of who we are, not because of what politics we support.


I just don't know about this one. If you have a group of people within your nation who have a few cultural practices that are, I dunno, against the law, and they harbor a tiny minority who, I dunno, want to kill everybody, how would you know when the demonization started?

As for the veil, I don't want to sound like an American blowhard, but immigrants should expect to adapt to their host culture, not the other way around. If I moved to Britain from the U.S., should I be allowed to carry firearms because that's part of my culture? Or should I be a big boy, and adapt to my new country?

And why exactly are the British so afraid of offending Salafists? It's not like they don't want to drink your blood already ...

Darn straight.

Crazed Rabbit

Reenk Roink
10-25-2006, 00:52
No, it isn't. He justifies any and all attacks against the west because of who we are, not because of what politics we support.

:laugh4:

Yes, terrorism's main cause is a hatred for freedom... :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Crazed Rabbit
10-25-2006, 01:05
Did I say that? Or are you just incapable of coming up with a real response?

Crazed Rabbit

Reenk Roink
10-25-2006, 01:28
Did I say that? Or are you just incapable of coming up with a real response?

No need to respond to something so mistaken... :laugh:

As I recall, he didn't see the need to attack us because of "who we are" in the 80's... :wink:

Del Arroyo
10-25-2006, 02:02
As someone who more or less recently gained the ability to read in Arabic, I will say that I postponed judgement for a long time, like about until the point where I was reading Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya every day. And my feeling is, that quite frankly, Islam, as it is understood and practiced by a vocal majority-- NOT how it is outlined in the Qur'aan, mind you, a book which is big on atmosphere and low on specifics-- is pretty daggone evil.

Or not evil, per se, any more than Fascism was evil-- it was and is the acts of a minority that are evil. To be more specific, Islam is the perfect theology-- it is self-confirming, you believe in it because it is the truth, and you follow it because it is the way. Whereas other major religions get bogged down in distracting superstitions and lesser saints, Islam goes straight to the point. God is God. He is everything and the only reason for existence. Mohammed is His Prophet (sullallah 9alayhee wa sallam) and the Qur'aan is His word. Why would you want to do anything other than follow its teachings, the perfect and most pure and most happy way of living? Unlike in Christianity, no particular explanation is offered. It is simply unthinkable.

And herein lies the problem. There is no flexibility. Which is how you end up with the teachings of a kind, generous and tolerant man being twisted into a moral code which through its rigid enforcement betrays its most sacred roots.

So is there much misunderstanding of Muslims and Islam? Yes, of course. But is there smoke without fire? _____ (Enter your own response here.)

IRONxMortlock
10-25-2006, 02:09
A pathetic article; a biased editorial, written by a biased person for a biased organization that makes a mountain out of a molehill.


Someone finally read the article although as is typical of the right-wing echo-chamber; didn't argue against much of its specifics.



Jack Straw saying maybe Muslim women shouldn't wear veils is demonizing them?


The authors point is it that appears Jack Straw's comments have little to do with the tiny fraction of the population of people who wear veils and more with trying to vilify Muslims in general.



No, it isn't. He justifies any and all attacks against the west because of who we are, not because of what politics we support.


I don't normal do this kind of emoticon response but seriously dude - :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Anyway, back on topic:


I just don't know about this one. If you have a group of people within your nation who have a few cultural practices that are, I dunno, against the law, and they harbor a tiny minority who, I dunno, want to kill everybody, how would you know when the demonization started?


This seems to be the problem here. Generalisation. Yes, some Muslims break the law. So does an element every ethinic group but that doesn't make them ALL criminals. The vast bulk of Muslims are peaceful, law abiding citizens and they are being (I believe pursposfuly) lumped in with a tiny group of fanatical zealots who happen to share a belief in the same God.


As for the veil, I don't want to sound like an American blowhard, but immigrants should expect to adapt to their host culture, not the other way around. If I moved to Britain from the U.S., should I be allowed to carry firearms because that's part of my culture? Or should I be a big boy, and adapt to my new country?

If, for example, a Texan were to drive around with a .50cal machine gun mounted on the back of his truck after immigrating to my country I would definitely be against it - it's against our laws for him to do so regardless of what he did back home. If he wants to wear a 50 gallon hat, snake skin boats with spurs and chaps everywhere he goes I would have no objection.

I expect an immigrant to my country to obey our laws. I only expect them to alter their cultural practices should those practices be unlawful. Wearing a veil doesn't break the law (at least not in my country). In fact, I think immigrants should be encouraged to maintain their own customs and languages. I believe having a culturally diverse population will eventually create a more tolerant and open minded society.

Seamus Fermanagh
10-25-2006, 04:02
Wow, that makes about as much sense as volunteering to retrieve dead qual at a Dick Cheney hunting party.


Retrieving the dead quail would put you down range from Cheney -- which is apparently safer than being in the shooter's line next to him.:oops:

Crazed Rabbit
10-25-2006, 05:29
As I recall, he didn't see the need to attack us because of "who we are" in the 80's...

I suggest a history book, or a cursory knowledge of the '80s. Try and think about who was occupying Afghanistan at that time, and why that might affect Osamas' ability to attack the US.

Also, read what Osama has to say, circa May 1998 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html):

We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets, and this is what the fatwah says ... . The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims.


The authors point is it that appears Jack Straw's comments have little to do with the tiny fraction of the population of people who wear veils and more with trying to vilify Muslims in general.

Really? How so? That seems like a very biased analysis to me. How is saying that he would prefer veiled women to take off their veils vilifying Muslims, especially if only a tiny fraction wear veils? Jack Straw's comments started out with very little publicity according to this article.

Crazed Rabbit

Reenk Roink
10-25-2006, 14:24
I suggest a history book, or a cursory knowledge of the '80s. Try and think about who was occupying Afghanistan at that time, and why that might affect Osamas' ability to attack the US.

Maybe you should read up on who was helping the resistance against the USSR. From this resistance evolved bin Laden himself... "Enemy of my enemy"...


Also, read what Osama has to say, circa May 1998 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html):

Pretty much sums it up... Everyone is a "Jewish" occupier or supporter...

Compare with the view that it is easy to "connect" every muslim who is not "actively opposing them" with the terrorists (ignoring multitude of denounciations, condemnations, and fatwas against of course :rolleyes:)...

Fragony
10-26-2006, 11:32
More war incidents in Stalingrad Paris

http://www.lefigaro.fr/france/20061026.WWW000000246_nouveaux_incidents_en_banlieue_parisienne.html

'A Nanterre, vers 22 heures, alors que le bus 258 en provenance de la Défense faisait halte avenue Clémenceau, plusieurs personnes cagoulées s’y sont engouffrées. Les agresseurs ont alors projeté un liquide inflammable dans le véhicule avant d'y mettre le feu et de prendre la fuite.'

Well they set a bus ablaze with the passengers in it. Passengers made it :balloon2:

Fragony
10-26-2006, 11:58
ps no passengers in bus my bad. Got to work on my sensationalism.

IRONxMortlock
10-26-2006, 12:11
Well they set a bus ablaze with the passengers in it. Passengers made it :balloon2:

Who is they? Muslims? All 1 billion of them?

Fragony
10-26-2006, 12:23
Who is they? Muslims? All 1 billion of them?

No of course not that is silly, just the 99.999.999 that ruin it for Dariush.

Anyways, what the media that campaigns against muslims always forgets to mention is that they don't set the cars with a quran in it ablaze. It's just rediculous to say that is has nothing to do with it. It's an intifada in Paris, was all waiting to happen of course, millions still haven't seen their xbox360 in full HD.

Crazed Rabbit
10-27-2006, 02:18
Maybe you should read up on who was helping the resistance against the USSR. From this resistance evolved bin Laden himself... "Enemy of my enemy"...

The US had nothing to do with bin Laden, who was funded independently by the Arab states and such.

Crazed Rabbit

Brenus
10-27-2006, 08:27
“I believe having a culturally diverse population will eventually create a more tolerant and open minded society.”
I did believe that as well. "Once upon a time it was a country named Yugoslavia". It is the introduction of a Serbian movie named “Lapa Sela Lepo Gore”, which can be translated as Pretty village Pretty Flame. I would have translated Pretty Village burn nicely.
Back to the subject: this movie is about the war in Bosnia. The start is the building of a tunnel under Tito and the celebrating of the brotherhood between various communities. Muslim, Orthodox and Catholic were sharing the same land, born in the same hospital, going in the same schools during more than one century. They speak the same language, which is a difference with emigrants. They are from the same ethnic background; most of them are Slaves, even if you find other so-called ethnicities and religions. And you know what? All exploded. Tito allowed for keeping power purpose each community to keep its own traditions, even created a Muslim nationality. And when the economical difficulties and more political freedom came, it turned ugly.

If there is one lesson we have to learn from former Yugoslavia it is this one: work on the system. Never assume it is done for ever. It is not because you built a Mosque or a Church, or what ever Cultural Centre and forget to listen the noises from the streets under Political Correctness that the problem is solved.
The first act of war in Mostar by the Croats was to destroy the bridge between the Muslim and them. The first act of peace of the Croats is to build a BIG cross on the mountain above Mostar.
Same thing is Skopje, Macedonia, I have to say.
More you have differences, the more you increase the opportunities of clashes.

“Who is they? Muslims? All 1 billion of them?”: I know France got the biggest Muslim Community in Europe (well, excepted European Muslim Countries as Albania, Bosnia and Turkey, of course) but still the figures are around 2 millions.
This figure show that to choose “Intifada” to describe what happened in France is at least exaggerated.

“The US had nothing to do with bin Laden”:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Tribesman
10-27-2006, 08:29
The US had nothing to do with bin Laden, who was funded independently by the Arab states and such.

By "and such" do you mean the New York and Arizona offices ?
Or do you mean that he got some of his funds through the MiS who got their money from the CIA ?

BigTex
10-27-2006, 08:50
Maybe you should read up on who was helping the resistance against the USSR. From this resistance evolved bin Laden himself... "Enemy of my enemy"...

Bin Laden evolved prior to that, he had become an islamofacist outside of Afghanistan. The USA assisted the Taliban resistance to the USSR and their puppet communist regime. Bin Laden an Alqueda were there near the end but didn't recieve much in the way of support, even the Taliban disliked them. All in all it was a war well worth fighting, but it is not were islamofacism started. You need to start looking into the European colonial period of the middle east to find that.
__________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

BigTex
Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

Tribesman
10-27-2006, 09:09
Bin Laden evolved prior to that, he had become an islamofacist outside of Afghanistan. The USA assisted the Taliban resistance to the USSR and their puppet communist regime. Bin Laden an Alqueda were there near the end but didn't recieve much in the way of support, even the Taliban disliked them.
Slight problem there Tex , the Taliban were formed after the soviets pulled out , and after Massoud and Dostrum had kicked out the "puppet" government .
Is your watch ever so slightly out ?
As it seem to be giving you the wrong time .~;)