View Full Version : Which faction has the worst starting position?
BaldwinIV
10-29-2006, 16:09
How did you think, which faction is toughest to play (according to its starting position)?
IMO this is Portugal.
I agree Portugal is on nr. 1. Those two separated provinces.... they 'd better start of with some superior military force so they can break through either spanish or moor territory and unite their lands.
Nr. 2 I guess is Scotland. After that it becomes blurred, but I think the Milanese may be in for a rough ride as well.
Egypt I think will be most boring (to start with)... sit there, take a zillion rebel provinces and build them up.... yawn.
ProudNerd
10-29-2006, 16:25
France surrounded by nations that hate them and my first target for me when i play england in my first campaign! :D
Comrade Alexeo
10-29-2006, 16:26
I said Scotland. They're stuck on a wee little island with only one city and facing the powerful English...
Portugal is a close second. It comes in at #2 because I think its possible that the Spanish will be more concerned with the Moors at first, allowing the Portuguese to cautiously build up...
Faenaris
10-29-2006, 16:27
While portugal really is in a dire position, I still voted HRE. They have a larger empire, thus a larger border and a lot of other nations in the vicinity. Granted, there are some rebel provinces who figure as some kind of buffer, but still. :)
I say Byzantines.
I remember from MTW1 that those guys were difficult to play because of the location.
Not to mention the fact that you always get crusader armies in your lands stealing your troops.
Then the golden horde comes and it gets even worse.
Turks also bad
satchef1
10-29-2006, 17:54
Its got to be the Portugese, their only possibility of survival is if the Castile-Leonese and Moors keep each other too busy for them to notice Portugal. The Scots have it pretty bad too but at least they have easily defendable terrain and if they strike when Englands back is turned the British Isles are theirs, and it will take some fighting to get them out of their again!
I say Byzantines.
I remember from MTW1 that those guys were difficult to play because of the location.
Not to mention the fact that you always get crusader armies in your lands stealing your troops.
Then the golden horde comes and it gets even worse.
Turks also bad
The Byz have an easy starting position in MTW1, Turk-stopping bottle-neck at constantinople, rich provences, easy expansion into the rebel steppe provences via the black sea. Its the easiest starting position in the game
Remember its starting position, by the time you have crusaderes and Mongol you will have built up quite a lot. I say Portugal because you can't expand far without running into other people, followed by Scotland because you share an island with the English and apart from the one province to your North and mayby Nothumberland you have to go to war with England to expand.
ProudNerd
10-29-2006, 18:14
While portugal really is in a dire position, I still voted HRE. They have a larger empire, thus a larger border and a lot of other nations in the vicinity. Granted, there are some rebel provinces who figure as some kind of buffer, but still. :)
im not sure of the exact positions. Is there a map where i can see where each faction starts?
ProudNerd, check out:
https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtw2map2qh7.jpg
Darth Nihilus
10-29-2006, 18:28
While Portugal's starting position is not easy, I think the most difficult starting spot is the HRE by far. Portugal does have a somewhat difficult starting spot, but I wouldn't even put it in the top 5 hardest. The HRE has many potential enemies that it has to deal with at once. Dealing with 1 or 2 enemies is not nearly as difficult as fighting 6 at one time.
Plus, if you are winning with Portugal, you have natural borders that you can expand to in the Iberian peninsula. If you are winning with the HRE, you have no natural borders. Not to mention, the Iberian peninsula is a lot more wealthy that the land in central Europe. I am baffled that Portugal has even been veoted for.
Azog 150
10-29-2006, 18:32
I voted France because its surrounded by 3 potentual super powers who arnt exactly there good friends.
Zenicetus
10-29-2006, 18:33
Egypt I think will be most boring (to start with)... sit there, take a zillion rebel provinces and build them up.... yawn.
I agree about the start for Egypt, but the mid-game could get interesting. Build up a big navy, then launch an invasion across the Med, due north. And in the end game, it would be fun to see Egypt take on the Aztecs... especially if Egypt doesn't get much in the way of late-game firearms tech. Although, that's probably one of the last factions I'd play. Too many others are more interesting to start with.
P.S. Portugal definitely looks the hardest, unless the deck has been stacked with superior starting units, or some economic bonus (marine trade, maybe?).
Burakius
10-29-2006, 18:43
Hungary and Portugal. Hungary is surrounded by 2 countries. And Portugal is obvious ( and historically ridiculous)
And in the end game, it would be fun to see Egypt take on the Aztecs...
There's an interesting scenario!
To Darth Nihilus: I think your observations are correct, however we were discussing starting positions. The HRE starts with a good set of territories and plenty of rebel provinces nearby. There's no worry about being taken out early. Portugal, on the other hand, seems to have very little room for mistakes early on. Sure, if it manages to survive for a while it may eventually find itselve in a good position, but that seems a big 'if' considering the intial setup.
Amon_Zeth
10-29-2006, 19:24
Poor ol' Portugal looks like it's pretty bad off, what with being surrounded and all. France is second, being hemmed in by some very hostile people.
ProudNerd
10-29-2006, 19:42
ProudNerd, check out:
https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtw2map2qh7.jpg
wow thanks thats a really great map its very clear. Looks like the ports do in fact have an awful start the hre has Constantinople so it should have a huge eco. There sure are loads of rebel provinces.
I guess I would have to agree on portugal. Simply because they have no room for expansion whithout risking war whith neighbours. If hispania would have consist of more provinces then it would have been better.
.. and thats another fact that I can se.. to few provinces.. I se alot of places where I would like more of them. Hopefully the modders of M2TR will add a few more like they did in RTR. But I am sure it will be fun anyway :2thumbsup: .
I am not sure who comes as 2nd though, France seems to begin whith more provinces than any other faction. However being that large at the start makes them an easy target by many smaller factions situated around them. And to have many hostiles around them could be pretty challenging.
BaldwinIV
10-29-2006, 22:42
.. and thats another fact that I can se.. to few provinces.. I se alot of places where I would like more of them. Hopefully the modders of M2TR will add a few more like they did in RTR. But I am sure it will be fun anyway :2thumbsup: .
I counted 102 provinces at all. But this isn't very significant...
Randarkmaan
10-29-2006, 22:58
And in the end game, it would be fun to see Egypt take on the Aztecs...
The Egyptians have powerful cavalry, armour, steel weapons, firearms (they had firearms in MTW, Mamluk handgunners + the other ones), cannon (as most every other faction). It would not be much different from the Spanish fighting the Aztecs... Though it would look very different! And it is a scenario I would want to realize...
I think... Scotland has a difficult starting postion. The Turks can also get bad, most of the time all the Crusades directed at the Egyptians will have to go through you, and they are sort of in the way of the Mongols and probably the Timurids also.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
10-29-2006, 23:03
Portugal and spain. they Both stuck together between France and Alhomads (If I remember right). That why I play as Germany or italy more often,even poland.
Burakius
10-29-2006, 23:48
The Egyptians have powerful cavalry, armour, steel weapons, firearms (they had firearms in MTW, Mamluk handgunners + the other ones), cannon (as most every other faction). It would not be much different from the Spanish fighting the Aztecs... Though it would look very different! And it is a scenario I would want to realize...
I think... Scotland has a difficult starting postion. The Turks can also get bad, most of the time all the Crusades directed at the Egyptians will have to go through you, and they are sort of in the way of the Mongols and probably the Timurids also.
Will Timurids or Mongols come in later in the game??? I didnt knew that :O
Basileus
10-29-2006, 23:57
I would go with Portugal aswell, after my first campaign with the byz i´ll propably play them.
CaesarAugustus
10-30-2006, 02:08
https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtw2map2qh7.jpg
Whoa, that is a lot of rebel provinces. Great map though.......:2thumbsup:
I'd say the top three are Portugal (surrounded), France, and Venice (all hemmed in by superpowers)>
Zenicetus
10-30-2006, 03:26
The Turks can also get bad, most of the time all the Crusades directed at the Egyptians will have to go through you, and they are sort of in the way of the Mongols and probably the Timurids also.
A quick question about Crusades, since I never played MTW:
If you're holding provinces that are in the path of a Crusade, like the Byzantines or the Turks, do the Crusader armies just move across your territory without any effect (as long as you're not at war with the faction), or do they try to conquer it as part of the Crusade?
If it's the latter, and you're strong enough to be a deterrent, does the AI bypass the land route with ships?
I know we don't know exactly how M2TW will work... just wondering about how this was in MTW.
ProudNerd
10-30-2006, 03:30
Will Timurids or Mongols come in later in the game??? I didnt knew that :O
Mongols will but they are not repeat not playable. Yes this caused an outrage..for others i prefer to play somebody with more amour less cowardly tactics and guns!:smash:
Hurrah! Baghdad is in! That makes me happy. :thumbsup:
Well I wish I'd seen that map first, as I now agree with most here that the Portuguese probably have the hardest starting position. (I voted for the Polish instead--guess I'm still stuck in MTW mode. ~:rolleyes: )
After the Portuguese, I would say the Scots are probably a close second in terms of diffculty of position. They'll probably have a hard time fighting over York with the English, and I doubt Inverness is going to rake in the cash....
BaldwinIV
10-30-2006, 09:34
A quick question about Crusades, since I never played MTW:
If you're holding provinces that are in the path of a Crusade, like the Byzantines or the Turks, do the Crusader armies just move across your territory without any effect (as long as you're not at war with the faction), or do they try to conquer it as part of the Crusade?
If it's the latter, and you're strong enough to be a deterrent, does the AI bypass the land route with ships?
I know we don't know exactly how M2TW will work... just wondering about how this was in MTW.
You could allow them to cross your lands without a fight and lose of territories. The other way was to crush them once and forever :devilish:
ciprianrusu
10-30-2006, 13:35
IMO i think that the toughest ride will be with the portuguese.They have 2 provinces separated one from the other, and the moorish empire breading on their neck. Challenging indeed. The second i think will be the scotish.Stranded on the north side of the map, next to the more powerful english, and not that many resources.Number 3 on this top, well... tough, but i think that the milanese are taking the bronze medal. To tiny and surrounded by powerful neighbors.
Ianofsmeg16
10-30-2006, 16:15
Why dont the english have york?
I'm saying The scots or The HRE...Scots have one small, poor province and can be easily overwhelmed by the english...and the HRE has a large, fragile union and can be quickly surrounded by the French, Danes, Italian States, poland and hungary
Vladimir
10-30-2006, 18:32
HRE, as always. Let's see if the AI can play them this time. Playing them in MTW you have to exterminate a faction to secure the peace with them. No forgiveness for the Germans.
Phalaxar
10-30-2006, 19:04
France I'd say was toughest, because she has some decent but not great lands - good enough to be desired but not good enough to be an immediate powerhouse.
Portugal, I'd say, was alright - with a bit of luck she could survive and do very well. Ally with Spain immediately, attack the moors to take Corduba (such a lovely province!), build up defensively, take on the Spanish, and they're sitting pretty in that peninsula.
If you leave Spain to itself, just remember: in MTW that other little Spanish faction always did alright for itself - not that I can remember the name!
All the others, I think, can just about survive. France I see as most likely to go out of the game.
Although I suppose the Holy Roman Empire is in a very similar position to France. :yes:
Edit: obviously it depends where the player starts. I guess I'm thinking in a game with no player influence. :sweatdrop: Can't of course say that for sure without seeing the campaign AI.
I voted for Scotland cause they've only got one city and they'll be at war with the very powerful English Empire until they are wiped off the map :dizzy2:
JonnyTheRipper
10-30-2006, 19:27
Is this map historically correct? What year is it? It seen pretty strange.
Kavhan Isbul
10-30-2006, 19:57
The map is as historically incorrect as it gets. There are just way too many rebels, making for a boring opening - each faction has access to plenty of rebel cities, and in the beginning it would be a scramble for lands and centers, suiting a game about the 19th century colonisation of Africa rather than Medieval Europe. I will not game the game until some decent mods come out with a more ralistic starting map.
That being said, back to the topic. I actually think that what applies to the Portugese, applies to the Spanish. Especially if the Moors decide to attack them early or simply take the rebel cities on the Iberian peninsula quicker. A nightmare scenario for the Spanish is for the Portugese to take Zaragoza, while the Moors get to Valencia first. Pamplona seems closer to zaragoza than Toledo, and even if the Spanish take Valencia, they will be squeezed between the Moors and the Portugese - not a great position.
The Scotish actually are in a good position - if they take York, they only have one province to defend against the English (who might be in war with the French on the mainland). The HRE and the French are in a complicated position - plenty of initial lands means they will have to consolidate and defend before they can expand (unless the French can take out the English quickly and the HRE can do the same with Venice). I wonder where the richest lands will be. If cities in the North-East yield poor income, it may turn out that the Novgorods are in the worst starting position, despite being surrounded with plenty of rebels - if they cannot get the funds to develop well before a Western or Southern super power emerges and the Horde arrives, then they would be the hardest faction.
Darth Nihilus
10-30-2006, 20:50
I completly agree with what the above poster said about France and the HRE. Portugal and Scotland don't have the easiest starting spots, but neither are they the hardest. One provence factions are never hard to manage. Portuagl has natural borders after conquering the Iberian peninsula, and is very easily defended. Same goes for Scotland and the British Isles. They get way, way easier after just a few conquests. With the HRE (and France to a lesser extent) there is no reprieve after winning a few battles because there are no natural boundries. I.e. after defeating the Franch and the Italians, then come the English and Spanish. Or if you go the other direction after defeating Poland and Hungary, there is no natural border between you and the Byzantines and Novogorod. We haven't played the game yet, but based on what we have so far it is the HRE no contest. Saying Portugal has the most difficult spot is like saying Aragon had the most difficult in the original MTW. It's nearly the same thing. Another thing people seem to be forgetting is that the Iberian Peninsula is far wealthier than the central European lands of the HRE.
Novogorod could possibly be very difficult too if the area is poor.
I would say HRE. Starting out, it's not so bad. However, in a few turns, you could be bordering as many as 7 other nations (Venice, Milan, Hungary, Poland, Denmark, England and France). It should be interesting.
Portugal has the toughest position based on just starting lands. However, if you can manage a quick strike against Spain, their position becomes good easily. I think difficulty of starting position should take into account whether you can make it a lot better in a few good moves.
Darth Nihilus
10-31-2006, 04:31
That was very well put andrewt.
satchef1
10-31-2006, 12:51
ive changed my mind, a quick look at the campaign map and i think Venice will have the hardest time. HRE to the north, Hungary to the north-east, Byzantium to the south-east, Milan to the west. Those are some unfortunate neighbours!
Scotland isn't that bad, especially since they can grab three provinces easily. They have a link from Edinburgh to Ireland. If they go into Northumbria first they could capture it whilst making smaller forces for Ireland and Inverness which nobody else can conquer early on in the game.
The worst position goes to the HRE. Hopefully the AI will know how to play them well this time. I would like to see some epic battles trying to invade a massive and well played HRE! :D
Portugal. Split territories, neighbours to two potential superpowers in the Muslim Moors who can attack them without fear of Papal condemnation, and the Spanish who are in easy striking position of both Portugal and Naverre which they could hit at the same time easy.
To survive I'm betting that you would need to either buddy up with one against the other, which opens more problems. Do side with the slightly apparently more powerful Moors (open to debate that one) or the same faith Spanish who you can't attack without excommunication? If Portugal can survive the early stages though it'd be a good position, close to the New World, great trading position to both the Med and the north and far from the Pope and any marauding bands of super-calvary factions coming from the east to kill and plunder indiscriminately. But then, what's the chances of the latter happening....
LegioScythia
10-31-2006, 22:48
Scotland isn't that bad, especially since they can grab three provinces easily. They have a link from Edinburgh to Ireland. If they go into Northumbria first they could capture it whilst making smaller forces for Ireland and Inverness which nobody else can conquer early on in the game.
The worst position goes to the HRE. Hopefully the AI will know how to play them well this time. I would like to see some epic battles trying to invade a massive and well played HRE! :D
i agree with you HRE is more or less in the middle of europe so it can be attacked from almost every side another thing was the fact that almost all the generals were disloyal there was time that i had a civil war each 5 turns :wall:
I voted Portugal.It really sucks having a non-united kingdom :shame:
PseRamesses
11-02-2006, 07:39
Portugal with Scotland as runner up.
Richard The Tiger Heart
11-02-2006, 10:05
I dont think Portugal has the worst starting position. They can be attacked from north, east and south but they cant be attacked by west unless theres an amphibius invasion.
The HRE can be attacked on every direction and has powerful superpowers near it like France or the rich Italian Republics. Its still is the most difficult.
Second would be the Byzantines which have their main provinces separated by the bosphorous strait. Sounds like the Crusaders and Seljuk Turks could give you a bad time.
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