John Kerry showing how liberals "Support the Troops" [Archive]

Crazed Rabbit

10-31-2006, 19:56

Senator McCain Fights Back:

Senator Kerry owes an apology to the many thousands of Americans serving in Iraq, who answered their country's call because they are patriots and not because of any deficiencies in their education. Americans from all backgrounds, well off and less fortunate, with high school diplomas and graduate degrees, take seriously their duty to our country, and risk their lives today to defend the rest of us in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

They all deserve our respect and deepest gratitude for their service. The suggestion that only the least educated Americans would agree to serve in the military and fight in Iraq, is an insult to every soldier serving in combat, and should deeply offend any American with an ounce of appreciation for what they suffer and risk so that the rest of us can sleep more comfortably at night. Without them, we wouldn't live in a country where people securely possess all their God-given rights, including the right to express insensitive, ill-considered and uninformed remarks.

Just another example of the elitist left's disdain and scorn for the military.

CR

Justiciar

10-31-2006, 20:00

You need at least a modicum of intelligence to pass basic training in any western military.
I didn't say or even imply that all soldiers are retarded, for god's sake. Just that militaries go after kids that come out of school with lower grades, because they're more likely to get stuck in a dead end job - which no 15-20 year old really wants. Service in the army comes as an attractive alternative. And Iraq isn't exactly the happiest place on earth at the minute. Seems to be all that Kerry is saying, and I agree. It was poorly worded on his part though. And clearly he's paying for it.

Redleg

10-31-2006, 20:18

I didn't say or even imply that all soldiers are retarded, for god's sake. Just that militaries go after kids that come out of school with lower grades, because they're more likely to get stuck in a dead end job - which no 15-20 year old really wants. Service in the army comes as an attractive alternative. And Iraq isn't exactly the happiest place on earth at the minute. Seems to be all that Kerry is saying, and I agree. It was poorly worded on his part though. And clearly he's paying for it.

So in escence you are retracting your ill informed statement of

Seems like a reasonable statement to make. Militaries the world over see kids with poor grades and "no hope" for a future as their primary target for recruitment.

freedom hating liberals, eh?

Then I must ask have you ever served in the military? My experience sort of indicates that there is a representive ratio of the general population in the military of the United States. Except in the education level which is slightly higher since it does require a High School diploma or a GED to enlist, and the passing of a general appitude test.

Mithrandir

10-31-2006, 20:24

Keep this thread on topic and inline with forumrules : no flaming.

Xiahou

10-31-2006, 20:54

And this guy still thinks he can be president. :dizzy2:

yesdachi

10-31-2006, 21:06

People really need to pay attention to what the individual says and not the party they represent. The only reward for stupid comments is a trip to the sidelines when it comes to the next election.

BigTex

10-31-2006, 21:11

Thats disgusting, so much disdain for a military that he served in and protects him. Good job McCain. Kerry needs to take a bus to some paris superbs.

Justiciar

10-31-2006, 21:14

So in escence you are retracting your ill informed statement of;
Sort of. The first post was off it's intended message. Though I was essentially trying to say the same thing in both posts. That being that armies target fresh-faced kids who've just hopped out of school, seeing the army as their best bet for stability. Often because they haven't got the grades they might have hoped for. That isn't to say a majority, or even a significant minority of soldiers fit that bill. It's just the people that armies aim to bring in, because they're an easier group to bag.

I didn't do particularly well in school, and I've considered joining the army on a number of occasions, as have many of my friends in a similar situation. Unlike a fair few of them I just can't pluck up the balls to go through with it. I agree that I should have picked my words better. Sorry for upsetting you, as I so clearly have. You can put your handbag down now. At no point do I claim that my "ill informed" opinion is gospel.

Your statement here indicates you realize that your statement is nothing other then a cheap shot at something you have never bothered to become informed of.
Silly, true, and needlessly hostile. So I've never joined the US Army, and thereby haven't got any real insight into it's internal workings? Sue me. Doesn't stop me from agreeing with a statement that may or may not be true.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-31-2006, 21:16

A big slice of the generation born from 1946 through 1959 have this model of the military in their heads.

1. The 1960's rules for draft deferrment (college deferrments etc.) really did work to screen many of the "best and brightest" of that age group out of the service. A very high percentage of our HS dropouts and those who couldn't get deferrment production jobs right out of HS were the ones who were sent to Vietnam.

THIS was the era of their teens and 20's, when they thought of serving (or not) and became a defining characterization of the military for them.

2. These were the generation of Vietnam. The Vietnam conflict is the standard by which all conflicts are judged. Any conflict that lasts for a considerable duration must be an incipient defeat. The US is incapable of projecting its power successfully against a guerilla-style opponent.

THIS was the truth of the conflict, the lessons of war as that generation learned it on TV.

3. Using force to impose US policy is immoral and transforms the USA from a force for good into an evil worse than the opposition. What right did the USA have to try to tell the Vietnamese which kind of government should be theirs?

THIS was the moral verdict on the conflict, and serves as a touchstone for evaluating the use of force. Thus, if force is sanctioned unilaterally, it must be suspect. If we cannot get our Allies in Europe -- with whom we share many cultural values -- to agree as to the use of force, we are probably enacting the wrong strategy. Violence, as a moral wrong, should be avoided in all but the most extreme instances (e.g. direct homeland defense).

John Kerry is no more than a product of his times. Thankfully, they weren't a majority opinion then....and aren't now.

Sasaki Kojiro

10-31-2006, 21:17

Everybody knows the only real way to support our troops is to put a nice yellow sticker on your car.

Sasaki Kojiro

10-31-2006, 21:36

But while the students showed proper enthusiasm for Angelides by waving his signs and wooing and booing at the right places, the energy in the room clearly belonged to Kerry. He tookthe stage to roaring applause and left it only to be mobbed by students and reporters.
Kerry charmed the crowd with tales of surfing at Mission Beach and got laughs for a series of one liners, including telling the crowd he had just returned from Texas, "Where the president used to live - now he lives in a state of denial."

Kerry then told the students that if they were able to navigate the education system, they could get comfortable jobs - "If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq," he said to a mixture of laughter and gasps.

The man never could tell a joke. What college was this where he got roaring applause?

Also:

Washington – Senator John Kerry issued the following statement in response to White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, assorted right wing nut-jobs, and right wing talk show hosts desperately distorting Kerry’s comments about President Bush to divert attention from their disastrous record:

“If anyone thinks a veteran would criticize the more than 140,000 heroes serving in Iraq and not the president who got us stuck there, they're crazy. This is the classic G.O.P. playbook. I’m sick and tired of these despicable Republican attacks that always seem to come from those who never can be found to serve in war, but love to attack those who did.

I’m not going to be lectured by a stuffed suit White House mouthpiece standing behind a podium, or doughy Rush Limbaugh, who no doubt today will take a break from belittling Michael J. Fox’s Parkinson’s disease to start lying about me just as they have lied about Iraq. It disgusts me that these Republican hacks, who have never worn the uniform of our country lie and distort so blatantly and carelessly about those who have.

The people who owe our troops an apology are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney who misled America into war and have given us a Katrina foreign policy that has betrayed our ideals, killed and maimed our soldiers, and widened the terrorist threat instead of defeating it. These Republicans are afraid to debate veterans who live and breathe the concerns of our troops, not the empty slogans of an Administration that sent our brave troops to war without body armor.

Bottom line, these Republicans want to debate straw men because they’re afraid to debate real men. And this time it won’t work because we’re going to stay in their face with the truth and deny them even a sliver of light for their distortions. No Democrat will be bullied by an administration that has a cut and run policy in Afghanistan and a stand still and lose strategy in Iraq.”

Spetulhu

10-31-2006, 21:52

Somewhat on topic: I thought you can try to gain permanent residency in the US by joining the armed forces. After serving a certain time you might be eligible for citizenship. Isn't this true? And wouldn't this be a method for people to get into the US when they have no other means of doing so?

CrossLOPER

10-31-2006, 21:56

Redleg

10-31-2006, 22:04

Silly, true, and needlessly hostile. So I've never joined the US Army, and thereby haven't got any real insight into it's internal workings? Sue me. Doesn't stop me from agreeing with a statement that may or may not be true.

No need for me to sue you. If you found the statement needlessly hostile maybe you should review what you have wrote, and do a little actual research on the subject before agreeing with a politican who is saying something that is ridicolous to score politicial points with the ill informed.

Now a moderator as asked me to edit my previous statement - but I shall wait until I see a retraction of your own comments first.

Mithrandir

10-31-2006, 22:07

Keep this thread on topic and inline with forumrules : no flaming.

I hate it when I have to repeat myself.

No personal attacks allowed.

Tribesman

10-31-2006, 22:10

Senator Kerry owes an apology to the many thousands of Americans serving in Iraq, who answered their country's call because they are patriots and not because of any deficiencies in their education.
A slight problem there , patriotism can be a deficiency of education .

Justiciar

10-31-2006, 22:30

No need for me to sue you. If you found the statement needlessly hostile maybe you should review what you have wrote.
Done. Can't see anything wrong with it. I've expressed a view point, and acknowledged that it may well be wrong. Afterall, it's ill informed, like you said.

Redleg

10-31-2006, 22:34

Done. Can't see anything wrong with it. I've expressed a view point, and ackowledged that it may well be wrong. And you're still throwing your toys out of the pram.

Incorrect -

Crazed Rabbit

10-31-2006, 22:37

Now the American Veterans group is firing at Kerry:

To: City Desk,

Contact: Joseph Chenelly of AMVETS, 301-683-4035, or jchenelly@amvets.org

LANHAM, Md., Oct. 31 /U.S. Newswire/ -- AMVETS' National Commander expressed disbelief and disappointment in the comments by Senator John Kerry Monday.

“For the Senator to suggest that today’s United States military is made up of uneducated men and women who didn’t ‘study hard’ or ‘make an effort to be smart’ is ridiculous and appalling,” AMVETS National Commander Thomas C. McGriff said Tuesday. “The men and women in uniform today make up the most advanced, highly-educated force ever seen. To suggest otherwise is a slap in the face to every soldier, sailor, airman, Marine and Coast Guardsman who has spent countless hours working to better him or herself. This is also an insult to every person and organization who has worked tirelessly to provide our troops and their families with education benefits.

“Senator Kerry should retract his remarks and apologize immediately,” McGriff said after listening to comments made by Senator Kerry at a political rally in Pasadena, Calif., Monday. “It is especially outrageous coming from a member of the U.S. Senate.”

-----

A leader since 1944 in preserving the freedoms secured by America's Armed Forces, AMVETS is the only veterans service organization that represents members of every branch of the military, including the National Guard and Reserve. AMVETS provides support for veterans and the active military in procuring their earned entitlements as well as community services that enhance veterans’ quality of life. More information on AMVETS can be found at http://www.amvets.org.

Media organizations seeking further comment or more information should contact the AMVETS National Headquarters by calling 301-683-4035.

But of course Kerry knows better than those stupid vets.

CR

BigTex

10-31-2006, 22:37

Done. Can't see anything wrong with it. I've expressed a view point, and ackowledged that it may well be wrong. And you're still throwing your toys out of the pram.

He's more then likely angered because you've agreed with a statement that calls him an uneducated idiot. This is why Kerry's statement is wrong, he's calling a large portion of the bravest citizens uneducated idiots, ironically including himself.

Justiciar

10-31-2006, 22:39

But I've said twice now that THAT ISN'T WHAT I MEANT.

:wall:

I'm sorry if that's what you think I'm saying, Redleg, seriously. And if it's what Kerry is saying then I misunderstood him.

CrossLOPER

10-31-2006, 22:41

This is why Kerry's statement is wrong, he's calling a large portion of the bravest citizens uneducated idiots, ironically including himself.
Does that make sense to you?

BigTex

10-31-2006, 22:53

Edited-mithrandirs request.

education if you make the most of it, study hard and do your homework and make an effort to be smart you'll do well. If you don't you get stuck in iraq.

There isnt much not to understand there, he's saying if your in iraq, your not smart, you didn't study hard and you don't have much of an education.

Does that make sense to you?

What portion is not understandable. He called the hundreds of thousands of citizens that served in iraq and the to numerous to count veterans of previous wars idiots. He is also one of those vet's.

CrossLOPER

10-31-2006, 22:56

TWhat portion is not understandable. He called the hundreds of thousands of citizens that served in iraq and the to numerous to count veterans of previous wars idiots. He is also one of those vet's.
I mean do you really believe that the people that are commonly labled as "liberal", including Kerry in this case, truly feel this way?

Redleg

10-31-2006, 22:56

But I've said twice now that THAT ISN'T WHAT I MEANT.

:wall:

I'm sorry if that's what you think I'm saying, Redleg, seriously. And if it's what Kerry is saying then I misunderstood him.

As I stated earlier take a good look at what you wrote, and see how it will be taken by veterns or those that are serving in the armed forces.

Seems like a reasonable statement to make. Militaries the world over see kids with poor grades and "no hope" for a future as their primary target for recruitment.

freedom hating liberals, eh?

as I stated earlier i found it a cheap shot and one based upon being un-informed or as I wrote it initally before it was edited by the moderator.

Your statement here indicates you realize that your statement is nothing other then a cheap shot at something you have never bothered to become informed of.

Which regardless of the moderator's postion on this is not an arguement at the man but one at your arguement. If I was truely angery I would have made a more pronounced statement directed at your specificially not your comment.

lack of being informed does not equate to anything else other then one is lacking information.

Redleg

10-31-2006, 22:59

I mean do you really believe that the people that are commonly labled as "liberal", including Kerry in this case, truly feel this way?

Kerry's problem is that he more then likely does feel this way for numerous reasons. However the majority of individuals that are "liberal" don't believe this way, especially the "liberials" in the military.

Its rather humorous that in Kerry's attempt to pander to a vocal minority within his party, he just stepped into insulting a vast number of people within his own party with his statements.

Kanamori

10-31-2006, 23:03

This is why he lost. His statements were usually able to be taken out of context, and the GOP took advantage in the Presidential race.

I mean do you really believe that the people that are commonly labled as "liberal", including Kerry in this case, truly feel this way?

Of course, it's the most negative interpretation to make; he's 'liberal' and deserves contempt, not objectivity.:smash:

Xiahou

10-31-2006, 23:06

Of course, it's the most negative interpretation to make; he's 'liberal' and deserves contempt, not objectivity.:smash:How else can you interpret it? His words were quite plain.

yesdachi

10-31-2006, 23:10

This is why he lost. His statements were usually able to be taken out of context, and the GOP took advantage in the Presidential race.
They string up Bush with his bass ackward speak all the time. If you dish it out, expect to get a spoonful back once in a while.

BigTex

10-31-2006, 23:24

They string up Bush with his bass ackward speak all the time. If you dish it out, expect to get a spoonful back once in a while.

Spoken for the truth except it doesnt need anymore stretching to see its vileness.

education if you make the most of it, study hard and do your homework and make an effort to be smart you'll do well. If you don't you get stuck in iraq.

That and his previous comments about the soldiers in iraq are quite self explanatory as to why he lost.

I mean do you really believe that the people that are commonly labled as "liberal", including Kerry in this case, truly feel this way?

I'm not commenting as to wether anyother liberal agrees to that. All I am commenting on are his views and his comments, though it sure does seem like the people in that room liked his comments.

Kanamori

10-31-2006, 23:30

In the context of the speech, it is clear that the statement could have meaning other than the literally interpreted 'plain words' he used. Rather than seeking to clarify, the GOP lambasts it. Clearly, phrases do take meaning outside of what literal interpretations of word combination would make. Yes, it is possible that he did intend it not to be a reference to GWB, but there is nothing that shows that, minus the fact that he is a 'liberal'.

Politics, as played out, is absurdly negative.

Kanamori

10-31-2006, 23:32

They string up Bush with his bass ackward speak all the time. If you dish it out, expect to get a spoonful back once in a while.

Not sure why you quoted me... I don't support the absurd Democratic talking points, either.

Sorry for my grumpiness coming through, it is wrong to express it here.

CrossLOPER

10-31-2006, 23:34

I'm not commenting as to wether anyother liberal agrees to that. All I am commenting on are his views and his comments, though it sure does seem like the people in that room liked his comments.
Alright, but I just want to know why your initial response would be "Darn liberal/elitist/democrat!" and not "Why would he say that? Perhaps he misspoke?" Would you not think the latter when Bush butchers his own quip?

BigTex

10-31-2006, 23:41

Alright, but I just want to know why your initial response would be "Darn liberal/elitist/democrat!" and not "Why would he say that? Perhaps he misspoke?" Would you not think the latter when Bush butchers his own quip?

Thats disgusting, so much disdain for a military that he served in and protects him. Good job McCain. Kerry needs to take a bus to some paris superbs.First post. Original response.

As to why I would assume the worste when he says it, is becuase of previous statements along these lines. But hey lets forget all about the "Troops breaking down doors and scaring babies" comments.

Tribesman

10-31-2006, 23:41

There isnt much not to understand there, he's saying if your in iraq, your not smart
And what else is there to say , it ain't smart to be in Iraq .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rWXrbNKWcg&mode=related&search=
Unless of course you think its clever to waste life and limb for some muppets who didn't do their homework .

Xiahou

10-31-2006, 23:52

And what else is there to say , it ain't smart to be in Iraq .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rWXrbNKWcg&mode=related&search=
Unless of course you think its clever to waste life and limb for some muppets who didn't do their homework .
Leave it to Tribesman to come out and insult all of the armed forces.... really disgusting. :no:

BDC

10-31-2006, 23:55

Leave it to Tribesman to come out and insult all of the armed forces.... really disgusting. :no:
How's that insulting? Never smart to be in a warzone...

And whoever organised and planned everything really didn't do any homework. No one can argue with that either.

Tribesman

10-31-2006, 23:57

No Xiahou , what is really disgusting is the idiots in power throwing their citizens lives away on a half baked idea .

Devastatin Dave

10-31-2006, 23:58

And what else is there to say , it ain't smart to be in Iraq .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rWXrbNKWcg&mode=related&search=
Unless of course you think its clever to waste life and limb for some muppets who didn't do their homework .
Thanks for proving my point.
Pretty much people such as Tribesman, Kanamori, Justiciar, and Kerry have a perception that only the stupid and foolish are currently residing in the military. They are entitled to their opinions. But the folks trying to say that Kerry was saying something totally different from what HE ACTUALLY SAID, well, it makes me wonder who the real idiots are in this argument, present company excluded of course.:beam:

Would you care to make another one of your brilliant comments about my "inbreed looks" Kanamori, this might be the best arguement you have this time.:yes:

Redleg

11-01-2006, 00:02

No Xiahou , what is really disgusting is the idiots in power throwing their citizens lives away on a half baked idea .

Which is the way to state the issue, versus the method that Senator John Kerry and the method in which you elected to take with this comment.

And what else is there to say , it ain't smart to be in Iraq .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rWXr...elated&search=
Unless of course you think its clever to waste life and limb for some muppets who didn't do their homework .

Kanamori

11-01-2006, 00:02

How's that insulting? Never smart to be in a warzone...

Unless you intend something to be done that you consider more important than your life... but insults are made in the minds of people who take them...

Pretty much people such as Tribesman, Kanamori, Justiciar, and Kerry have a perception that only the stupid and foolish are currently residing in the military.

*Sigh* If you must play your games...

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 00:06

Unless you intend something to be done that you consider more important than your life... but insults are made in the minds of people who take them...
So I guess you believe that the Veterans that Kerry called stupid are just being overly sensitive. Interesting.:no:

Kanamori

11-01-2006, 00:21

So I guess you believe that the Veterans that Kerry called stupid are just being overly sensitive. Interesting.

Not quite... it only means that some people will be insulted while others will not be. A person can try to insult another person, but they could never necessarily insult another person. It depends on the ideals of the person whom the malice is directed at. For this case to be insult, the person must care that malice is directed at them, because they are obviously not necessarily stupid or uneducated.:book: Whether or not those ideals are well founded depends on the beliefs of the individual, not me.

Redleg

11-01-2006, 00:49

Not quite... it only means that some people will be insulted while others will not be. A person can try to insult another person, but they could never necessarily insult another person. It depends on the ideals of the person whom the malice is directed at. For this case to be insult, the person must care that malice is directed at them, because they are obviously not necessarily stupid or uneducated.:book: Whether or not those ideals are well founded depends on the beliefs of the individual, not me.

Well the actual text of the statement is this.

He then said: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

It definitily seems that once again John Kerry was pandering to a specific population by feeding them the same ill informed information as always. I find his defense of the comment even more telling.

"I'm sick and tired of a bunch of despicable Republicans who will not debate real policy, who won't take responsibility for their own mistakes, standing up and trying to make other people the butt of those mistakes," he said. "It disgusts me that a bunch of these Republican hacks who've never worn the uniform of our country are willing to lie about those who did."

It seems Hyprocrit is indeed John Kerry's middle name.

Del Arroyo

11-01-2006, 00:52

I agree with what others have said-- this is just Kerry. I also think that Seamus F's clarification is very valid.

When I hear this it does not make me mad-- it only makes me shake my head and chuckle. Kerry is a guy who has demonstrated a consistent lack of situational awareness and failure to know his target audience. I voted for him in '04 but I doubt I would again.

Justiciar

11-01-2006, 01:05

Alright. Since that comment was deleted..

Dave, grow up. No one has said that. Redleg's comments were both understandable and justified. That was just ridiculous.

Papewaio

11-01-2006, 01:07

It seems Hyprocrit is indeed John Kerry's middle name.

I thought that was part and parcel of being a politician, changing ones middle name to Hyprocrit.

He then said: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

Not nice, nor accurate.

If I was his speech writer I would have gone down this track as my first draft:

"You know, education as a political leader, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework about all the possible scenarios in the short and long term, and you make an effort to be SMART that is to be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Tangible in goal settings, that means to begin with the end in mind, the exit from Iraq should have been outlined as such. Before going in we should have had a specific goal, that was measurable and this means quantifiable with dates attached, that was attainable, that was realistic and and that was tangible you can do well. The War on Terrorism is not measurable, Hearts and Minds is not Tangible. We needed to have a more realistic and attainable goal, a government that was stable, that was trending towards being more and more democratic in Iraq, this could have been measured in ballots, in free elections from local mayor to entire regions to the entire country, to a tangible self-sufficient local military. If you don't make this effort to have a SMART goal you have a fuzzy goal and you end up with a fuzzy result, in short you get stuck in Iraq."

"What we have to do is not cut and run. We have to take charge, create an exit strategy and work on it. If the strategy means we leave by the end of the year because we have met all the criteria so be it. If the strategy requires that we triple our commitment in numbers of troops on the ground and stay there for the next 15 years to meet our goal so be it. Whatever we do we need to know why, what, when, how we are going to seal the deal. So that we do not expend the lives of our youths in vain, we will win this through SMART leadership."

Crazed Rabbit

11-01-2006, 01:08

/\ I suppose it was only a matter of time (Justicar's pre-edit comment).

It appears people continue to have a problem seeing that people can be successful and want to join the military, they can actually believe in what we're doing in Iraq.

Guess what, guys! Despite your obvious contempt for the military, it isn't full of rejects and drop-outs, it isn't full of people who have no other options in life.

People can be smart and hard working and successful and want to join the military- that's why Kerry is so insulting. It's his base contempt and ignorance of the military.

CR

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-01-2006, 01:09

Justiciar

11-01-2006, 01:14

:no:

You're reading too much into it.

All that I've said.. or intended to say.. is that militaries aim to GO AFTER people of a certain group. Not that they ONLY recrtuit those people. I never stated that all SOLDIERS are fools and idiots. If you're reading it that way, it's your own fault. I've stated MY OPINION clearly. Don't warp and simplify it just to fit your glib remarks.

Kralizec

11-01-2006, 01:40

I think the point Justiciar was trying to make is that in high unemployment areas, the military offers the most viable future for you unless you belong to the small group of kids who only get top grades. And that recruiters know this.
Of course that doesn't mean that the entire military, or even the majority of the military is there because they had no viable alternatives. But it is true for some.

Was Kerry's comment meant for these few unfortunates living in poor neighbourhoods? Or as a broad sweeping insult to all armed forces? Probably the former, but he should have been more careful with his wording.

Crazed Rabbit

11-01-2006, 02:39

Was Kerry's comment meant for these few unfortunates living in poor neighbourhoods?

Considering he was speaking at a large University to students who had already been accepted, paid the fees, and were attending, I doubt it.

Now the American Legion (made up of vets) is also demanding an apology:

To: National Desk

Contact: Ramona Joyce, 202-263-2982 or 202-445-1161 (cell), Joe March, 317-630-1253 or 317-748-1926 (cell), both of the American Legion

INDIANAPOLIS, Oct. 31 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The National Commander of The American Legion called on Sen. John Kerry to apologize for suggesting that American troops in Iraq are uneducated.

"As a constituent of Senator Kerry's I am disappointed. As leader of The American Legion, I am outraged," said National Commander Paul A. Morin. "A generation ago, Sen. Kerry slandered his comrades in Vietnam by saying that they were rapists and murderers. It wasn't true then and his warped view of today's heroes isn't true now."

While addressing a group of college students at a campaign rally in Pasadena, CA., Monday, Kerry suggested that they receive an education or "if you don't, you'll get stuck in Iraq."

"While The American Legion shares the senator's appreciation for education, the troops in Iraq represent the most sophisticated, technologically superior military that the world has ever seen," Morin said. "I think there is a thing or two that they could teach most college professors and campus elitists about the way the world works.

"And while we are on the topic of education, why doesn't the senator and his comrades in Congress improve the GI Bill so all of today's military members - reserves and guard included - can achieve the educational aspirations that the senator so highly values?" Morin said. "The senator's false and outrageous attack was over-the-top and he should apologize now."

Also, a mother of a marine killed in Iraq is demanding an apology:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/10204420/detail.html

Second Lt. Joshua Booth died on Oct. 17. His mother said that what makes Kerry's words so offensive is that they come one day after Kerry called the family to offer condolences.

"We did appreciate the call. I am appreciative of anyone who reaches out to me and to then turn around and say something that is so totally incorrect," Booth said.

As to whether Kerry should apologize, Booth said that Kerry needs to do more to make amends.

"In addition to apologizing, he needs to learn a little bit about what our men and women in the military are actually made up of," Booth said. "We don't want to send that kind of signal, that you only go into the military if you are not good at anything."

Kerry got himself into a deep hole, and he keeps on digging. People are going to realize that the growing number of veteran groups calling for an apology aren't GOP members, they're mainstream Americans who fought to defend out country. The dems might be able to screw up whatever lead they have going into national elections.

Crazed Rabbit

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 03:18

Tribes and the rest of you (not wasting my time to type you ugys names out) who think it's stupid and foolish to be in the military? Oh Really? I guess you want to be blowed to hell by a Country like North Korea whenever your military disbands because of people like you guys (Kerry,Tribes,Kanamori and the rest,whoever"). They the ones who defend your nation,if you don't respect them, then mabye you should go to Iraw for a year and see how it is....

I know I'm going to get warned for that, but So be it, I had my two cents said,and I'll argue more if needed.

To be fair, it should be noted that Tribesy is far more disparaging of the USA's current leadership cadre than he is of the U.S. military. He considers the current administration a collection of what Moltke called the worst sub-class of leader "industrious but stupid." To the extent that he lobs shots at the military it is mostly a call for the military to cease taking orders from a group he views as idiotic, down tools, and go home.

On a larger note, however, Tribesy is also incapable (at least seemingly) of expressing a positive assessment of any political leader or government. His unrelenting cynicism is off-putting, as is his all-too-frequent penchant for quips at the expense of those articulating the other side of an argument.

Slyspy

11-01-2006, 03:59

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 04:09

Seamus your original post in this thread is the only one in it which is clear and reasonable. All the other have posted their normal pointless bickering remarks, which get so tiresome. Don't ruin it by getting involved with the character assassinations which so mar this forum.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Kerry was applying the Vietnam model to Iraq, wherein once the draft started it was indeed the less educated who were less likely to avoid the call up, the model which he experienced from his time in the military.

Of course that may not be accurate in the current situation, certainly not when the armed forces are currently made up of professionals rather than conscripts.

Armed forces and their leaders are always equipped, both physically and mentally, to fight the last war, not the next.

I try to resist. I honestly do prefer a "civilized" argument.

I do think Kerry is wrong in his assessments of US military capability and the parameters for its proper use. On the other hand, the full quotation of his SMART commentary was, to be fair, a considered opinion with some value. I was not one of the GOPers who derided his bravery or his tenure of service in Vietnam.

I live in an area with lots of military. They have their nimrods as does any other sphere of endeavor, but on the whole they are a pretty bright and dedicated group. In modern combat the level of technology required makes it harder and harder to use the strong back/weak brain type in the military.

Incongruous

11-01-2006, 04:17

Originally Posted by John Kerry
education if you make the most of it, study hard and do your homework and make an effort to be smart you'll do well. If you don't you get stuck in iraq.

I belive if one takes more time reading over this sentence, one may see that it deos not in-fact state that only idiots are serving in the armed forces of the United States of America. He has simply said that if you do not work hard or get smart you will end up in Iraq, he did not say, people who get smart and work hard are not the ones that get stuck in Iraq. Did he? I belive he is telling students (quite rightly) to work hard, or they will end up in a job that they do not wan't. Where as people who do work hard, have more options, and if they do end up in Iraq it they are not stuck there, for they are proud to be there. He has not denied that educated and smart people do join the armed forces.

Kanamori

11-01-2006, 04:22

Lemur

11-01-2006, 05:15

If Kerry isn't on Karl Rove's payroll, he should be. Wow, the man is a gift that keeps on giving. This should rally the Republican base nicely.

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 05:36

If Kerry isn't on Karl Rove's payroll, he should be. Wow, the man is a gift that keeps on giving. This should rally the Republican base nicely.
Do you agree or disagree with him?

Lemur

11-01-2006, 06:00

Do you actually care? I disagree with him completely. It's a bone-headed thing to say, both inaccurate and insulting to our soldiers.

I know that's not what you want me to say, though. Don't worry. I'll have an opinion you can get worked up about any minute.

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 06:08

CrossLOPER

11-01-2006, 06:55

Actually, I'm glad you have that opinion, I was just asking, you never know.
Are you targeting him or just what you perceive he stands for?

Incongruous

11-01-2006, 08:49

do your homework and make an effort to be smart

Ther you go, he stated that you do you're homework to be smart. Not because you already are. I would have thought that many would agree with this statement, as underachieving is never a good thing, and that under achievers end up with no options. He did not state.

Do you're homework and be smart. Because only the dumbasses don't so theirs and they end up in Iraq.
He never said anything about a pre-defined intelligence, he actually meant something a person can work on.

meh, I don't lnow if I'm making any sense here.

BigTex

11-01-2006, 09:25

I belive if one takes more time reading over this sentence, one may see that it deos not in-fact state that only idiots are serving in the armed forces of the United States of America. He has simply said that if you do not work hard or get smart you will end up in Iraq, he did not say, people who get smart and work hard are not the ones that get stuck in Iraq. Did he? I belive he is telling students (quite rightly) to work hard, or they will end up in a job that they do not wan't. Where as people who do work hard, have more options, and if they do end up in Iraq it they are not stuck there, for they are proud to be there. He has not denied that educated and smart people do join the armed forces.

No his statement says, if you are not smart, if you dont work hard, if you can't study, you are going to be in Iraq. Sorry, if you arent smart, your generally an idiot. If you don't work hard your lazy. If you can't study, you have no will power. So indeed if you spend time reading it, he actually said if your in Iraq your a lazy meak idiot. It's disgusting and it was not aimed at the disfortunate for which I could possibly see a better worded statement like this helping. Instead it was targeted at college students who only have one week until they vote.

It's a vile an repulsive lump of words gathered into a foul statement. He needs to do more then just apologize this time, he's done this not once but many times before, he's forsaken his fellow veteran's and those still bravely serving.

Scurvy

11-01-2006, 10:18

I can see what hes trying to say to students who are likely to be very very scared by the idea of fighting in Iraq to work harder "or else" he just got it completely wrong :shame:

I dont think he was deliberately insulting to the military, just criminally unthinking - he is of that particular mindset who belive that the army is a bunch of unthinking losers (not true), but very hard for him to cover up - as an extremely intelligent politician (yes, politicians are intelligent) it must be very hard for him to think of someone who doesnt do well in school as a living person.

I belive if one takes more time reading over this sentence, one may see that it deos not in-fact state that only idiots are serving in the armed forces of the United States of America. He has simply said that if you do not work hard or get smart you will end up in Iraq, he did not say, people who get smart and work hard are not the ones that get stuck in Iraq. Did he? I belive he is telling students (quite rightly) to work hard, or they will end up in a job that they do not wan't. Where as people who do work hard, have more options, and if they do end up in Iraq it they are not stuck there, for they are proud to be there. He has not denied that educated and smart people do join the armed forces.

I think i agree with this, he didnt mean to sounds so derogatry, but the way he says it is entirely wrong, apology needed.
(but if he apologises i hope everyone leaves it alone, one of the reasons politicians dont like apologising is because the media just carry on after they've admitted their mistake.)

:2thumbsup:

Major Robert Dump

11-01-2006, 10:50

despite what he may have meant (in all fairness Bush is ripped up for his verbal blunders), John Kerry has officially been PWNZERED. What a tard

Sir Moody

11-01-2006, 11:22

This guy is far worse than bush as when bush makes a verbal slip up we all know its because he isnt the brightest pebble on the beach - kerry doesnt have that excuse, hes a bright man who seem's to have everything going for him politician - he is a veteran with a exemplary military career who has the right background to make it - if only he could keep his mouth shut!

The statement is plainly a mistake i dont believe he thinks the anyone in that military is stupid but i do believe the statement reads that way. He should apologise and explain what he meant fully.

Navaros

11-01-2006, 14:25

I agree with John Kerry's Iraq statement.

That statement is not criticizing everyone who joins the military, rather just those unwise enough to get stuck in Iraq.

rory_20_uk

11-01-2006, 14:50

Surely being against a war is not in any way the same as being against the Military. The Military follows orders from politicians - regardless of what they are (with very few exceptions).

I am against the current deployment of troops, but I am still thinking of joining the TA - if I can get my fitness up and checkups done.

There are many stupid people in the Army. There are many stupid people in Wall Mart.

There are some very clever people in the Army. There are some very clever people in Wall Mart.

What use is intellect in every member of the Armed forces? When soldiers are ordered to attack, a debate on the rights of man is not required, following the orders is. The discussion happens many levels over their heads. The troopers are the muscle, the top brass (we hope) are the brains. Or failing the ones at the top, those in planning hopefully have some ability.

For a politician to come out and say "some people are smart, others aren't. Basically that's determined by your parents, and though nurture can help, you can't polish a horse apple." just isn't going to happen. The pretence of equality needs to be maintained.

Groundpounders are probably less smart, have lower grades and generally did less well at school. College grads enter on commissions (I'd joining the TA as a Captain, if I wait 2 years I enter as a Major).

~:smoking:

Ser Clegane

11-01-2006, 15:06

That statement is not criticizing everyone who joins the military, rather just those unwise enough to get stuck in Iraq.
That's a rather odd statement - as to my knowledge people are not exactly asked if they would like to go to Iraq once they are in the Army

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 15:09

I agree with John Kerry's Iraq statement.

That statement is not criticizing everyone who joins the military, rather just those unwise enough to get stuck in Iraq.
When you are in the military you get ORDERS to go where you go. Its not like you recieve your orders and can say, "Um, no, could I get these changed to Japan". You get orders, you go. If not, you're AWOL.

Slyspy

11-01-2006, 15:17

Dear Sir,

I would rather not be posted to Iraq on the grounds that it might be harmful to my state of health. If you have any desk jobs going in Hawaii please consider me more than willing to do my duty.

Signed

The Unlikely Soldier.

Scurvy

11-01-2006, 15:31

Surely being against a war is not in any way the same as being against the Military. The Military follows orders from politicians - regardless of what they are (with very few exceptions).

I am against the current deployment of troops, but I am still thinking of joining the TA - if I can get my fitness up and checkups done.

There are many stupid people in the Army. There are many stupid people in Wall Mart.

There are some very clever people in the Army. There are some very clever people in Wall Mart.

What use is intellect in every member of the Armed forces? When soldiers are ordered to attack, a debate on the rights of man is not required, following the orders is. The discussion happens many levels over their heads. The troopers are the muscle, the top brass (we hope) are the brains. Or failing the ones at the top, those in planning hopefully have some ability.

For a politician to come out and say "some people are smart, others aren't. Basically that's determined by your parents, and though nurture can help, you can't polish a horse apple."

Groundpounders are probably less smart, have lower grades and generally did less well at school. College grads enter on commissions (I'd joining the TA as a Captain, if I wait 2 years I enter as a Major).

~:smoking:

Long quote, but i like the way this is put :2thumbsup:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-01-2006, 15:57

When you are in the military you get ORDERS to go where you go. Its not like you recieve your orders and can say, "Um, no, could I get these changed to Japan". You get orders, you go. If not, you're AWOL.

argeed. I have Family members who served in the Army,including my dad, and if you get told to go somewhere, you go, plain and simple, stop complaining..

KukriKhan

11-01-2006, 16:18

The man never could tell a joke. What college was this where he got roaring applause?

Pasadena Community College, outside L.A. 370 students attended a "town hall"-type campaign rally for P. Angelides, Democrat candidate for governor. L.A. Mayor & Sen. B.Boxer were also there.

Some Pasadena CC alums:

Jackie Robinson, first African American in major league baseball
William Holden, actor best known for Sunset Blvd. and Sabrina
David Lee Roth, rock musician, (dropped out)
Nick Nolte, actor
Sirhan Sirhan, Robert F. Kennedy's assassin
Michael Dorn, actor, best known as Worf on Star Trek
Verne Winchell, founder of Winchell's Donuts and former chairman of Denny's Restaurants
Nicholas Brendon, Xander on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Jaime Escalante, former Garfield High School (Los Angeles) teacher, whose successful math class was dramatized in Stand and Deliver.
Alex Van Halen, drummer of Van Halen
Larry Shinoda, famed automobile designer

What Kerry was supposed to say (from prepared remarks by his speechwriter):

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

Quite a long way from what actually jumped out of his ad-libbing mouth.

Dude oughtta stick to knock-knock jokes.

Oh... and apologize.

Kralizec

11-01-2006, 16:45

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

That makes a whole lot more sense...

Banquo's Ghost

11-01-2006, 17:03

That makes a whole lot more sense...

It makes even less sense to me - if that's what he meant, why he is defending his earlier erroneous ad lib? If he meant to say the above, why didn't he just apologise for goofing up his speech and for the offense his mistake caused? Yet now he appears to be trying to rationalise a position he didn't even mean.

Why can't politicians ever bring themselves to say sorry? :furious3:

On the other side of the issue, I can't help wondering if the level of anger aimed at the hapless Kerry wouldn't be better aimed at the idiotic hubris that is actually costing soldiers' lives.

CrossLOPER

11-01-2006, 17:11

Why can't politicians ever bring themselves to say sorry?
You lose that ability as soon as you go into politics. If you do apologize for anything that your're not going to get arrested for, you'll be in a much worse position.

Banquo's Ghost

11-01-2006, 17:20

You lose that ability as soon as you go into politics. If you do apologize for anything that your're not going to get arrested for, you'll be in a much worse position.

That seems to be the consensus of the political class. But is it at all true?

In this case, if Kerry had come out and said, "Sorry, I misread my speech trying to make a joke, and I apologise unreservedly to veterans for the implications in what I said. I'll stick to knock-knock jokes from now on," do you think voters would have thought more or less of him?

I take the earlier point about the media, but what could they go on about if he didn't try and spin it? That he's a bit of a verbal blunderer? Such a rep hasn't really hurt President Bush because most voters seem to think he's a pretty straight speaker, one of the boys. A small crack in his intellectual patrician image might actually help Kerry.

Whatever, any apology couldn't have hurt him any more than this episode and his attempts to dig his way out of the hole.

Sure he'd have to hire Kukri as his speechwriter from then on, but there are worse fates. :wink3:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-01-2006, 17:29

News from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13018908/

I find this funny. Politicans are Liars and Crooks, most of them hardly ever try to help us.

KukriKhan

11-01-2006, 17:45

Sure he'd have to hire Kukri as his speechwriter from then on, but there are worse fates.

rofl. OTOH, you did a fine job crafting:

"Sorry, I misread my speech trying to make a joke, and I apologise unreservedly to veterans for the implications in what I said. I'll stick to knock-knock jokes from now on,"

He's still smarting from his botched reaction to Repub attacks during his failed presidential bid, and thinks the thing to do is "Fight back" this time, since the high-road tactic failed last time.

Someone back on page 1 or 2 of this thread (edit: Del Arroyo, post #58) critisized Kerry for being acutely situationally unaware. I have to agree. He mis-read the situation in '04, and he's mis-reading this situation as well.

Spino

11-01-2006, 17:58

News from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13018908/

I find this funny. Politicans are Liars and Crooks, most of them hardly ever try to help us.

Well not all of them but career politicians like Kerry & Kennedy are the absolute worst. I firmly believe that qualitatively speaking, politicians who are either Mayors of large cities or Governors stand head and shoulders above Representatives and Senators. It is much more difficult for a governor or mayor to hide their incompetency whereas a representative or senator can invoke a whole host of excuses to cover up their ineptitude (i.e. it wasn't me, it was bipartisan politics that destroyed that bill! The Democrats/Republicans are undermining our efforts, blah, blah).

Prince of the Poodles

11-01-2006, 18:49

Well I was actually considering voting dem this time.

I have been committed to the republicans since Sept. 11, despite their stance on certain social issues that I can't stand. The Iraq war has not been carried out very well, in my opinion. However, gay rights et al will always take a backseat to standing with the troops, especially in a time of war.

I will now definitely be voting straight (R) this time around. I will never support a party that would nominate for president, in a time of war, a man who feels military members are the least intelligent of our society. Kerry has been consistent about this since he trashed the vets during vietnam.

Im sure things were different when Kerry was shooting vietnamese kids in the back, but these days the technological knowledge US soldiers must possess is far greater than most of the general populace. In any event, its far more difficult than point and shoot.

In vietnam, Im sure a lot of smart people were able to get out of service, but even then, there were smart, intelligent people who sacrificed for their nation. In no context were his words appropriate.

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 18:51

Here's an interesting article on the "stupid" troops that Kerry "supports".
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm

Hi Prince, how's it going...:2thumbsup:

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 18:52

If Kerry isn't on Karl Rove's payroll, he should be. Wow, the man is a gift that keeps on giving. This should rally the Republican base nicely.

The Lemur is spot on with this point.

Polls a month out showed the Dems in a commanding lead -- but these things inevitably tighten as people get closer to actually recording a vote.

Still, most folks were predicting a DEM success with a 1-2 seat margin of control in the House and a toss-up for the Senate.

Kerry's mis-speech has once again allowed the GOP to hone in on their one "winning issue" security. Rightly or wrongly, the Republican position on the War on Terror (KATN when possible) plays pretty well in Peoria and the more passive/internationalist stance of the Dems does not. Iraq is grinding America's collective nerve, The Economy is doing great but with the recent oil-price hiccough/gouge folks are not willing to simply vote pocketbook, Marriage Protection Ammendments and the like are compelling issues only for a comparatively few voters. With Iraq grinding nerves and other issues shunted to the side, the Dems had seemed poised for a return to power.

In short, Kerry managed to undo the hard work of months of Dem campaigning with a few ill-chosen words. The election is now up for grabs and much of the advantages held by the Dems in recent weeks are suddenly suspect.

So, Lemur, how long do you think Kerry's been carrying water for Rove?

CrossLOPER

11-01-2006, 18:53

Well I was actually considering voting dem this time.

I have been committed to the republicans since Sept. 11, despite their stance on certain social issues that I can't stand. The Iraq war has not been carried out very well, in my opinion. However, gay rights et al will always take a backseat to standing with the troops, especially in a time of war.

I will now definitely be voting straight (R) this time around. I will never support a party that would nominate for president, in a time of war, a man who feels military members are the least intelligent of our society. Kerry has been consistent about this since he trashed the vets during vietnam.

Im sure things were different when Kerry was shooting vietnamese kids in the back, but these days the technological knowledge US soldiers must possess is far greater than most of the general populace. In any event, its far more difficult than point and shoot.
never support a party that would nominate, in a time of war, a man who feels military members are the least intelligent of our society.

In vietnam, Im sure a lot of smart people were able to get out of service, but even then, there were smart, intelligent people who sacrificed for their nation. In no context were his words appropriate.
^Post of the year material.^:thumbsup:

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 19:00

...Im sure things were different when Kerry was shooting vietnamese kids in the back,...

Prince:

While I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, and wouldn't vote to elect him dog-catcher, this line is uncalled for. Kerry was, no doubt, involved in "free-fire" engagements in the zones designated for same while serving in Vietnam. He may have been involved in firefights where innocents died, no definitive information exists. There is NO substantive indication that he purposefully targeted children or non-combatants during his service.

If you post in defense of our serving military, it would be better for you to avoid lobbing insults at a decorated combat veteran unless you are damned sure of your information. Save your jibes for his atrocious actions and policies and votes since returning from Vietnam -- there's plenty enough there to justify criticism.

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 19:05

Prince:

While I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, and wouldn't vote to elect him dog-catcher, this line is uncalled for. Kerry was, no doubt, involved in "free-fire" engagements in the zones designated for same while serving in Vietnam. He may have been involved in firefights where innocents died, no definitive information exists. There is NO substantive indication that he purposefully targeted children or non-combatants during his service.

Actually, it was in his own testimony that he commited these acts. Prince is correct, no matter how uncivilised it may sound in a posting. So yes, it would be accurate to call Kerry a "child murdering criminal", he said so himself.:beam:

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 19:09

I think the best part about this is watching the MSM try EVERYTHING it can to explain away this issue. I guess when the media votes 80% democrat each cycle, you have to carry their water as well...

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 19:37

Dave, my proud infidel friend,

I have read Kerry's testimony before the committee in 1971, and have heard the snippets taken from subsequent television interviews.

Even while he was busy mis-characterizing every Vietnam veteran and taking the liberal's moral high-ground for himself as a reformed "sinner" he never acknoledged committing such acts.

He did say he participated in free-fire zone firefights, in harrassing and interdiction fire, using Ma Deuce rounds on people, but never acknowledged his participation in directed fire against civilians or any other simlilarly "clear cut" war crime.

Kerry was more than willing to let every 'nam Vet get tarred with the My Lai brush -- even though anti-war guru Ellsberg admitted My Lai was obviously a singular case that was beyond the pale -- in pursuit of Federal office for John Kerry.

He can be rightly despised for this -- I know I do -- but even Hackworth defended Kerry's service in Vietnam.

I agree with Prince's sentiments, I just like to take a higher tone.

Lemur

11-01-2006, 19:39

So, Lemur, how long do you think Kerry's been carrying water for Rove?
It's astonishing, isn't it? First the stupid, offensive line, and then the arrogant refusal to apologize. Dear lord, if he isn't on Rove's payroll, at the very least he should get a gold-plated watch reading "GOP Forever."

What a freakin' idiot. To think that the last presidential cycle we had this and Bush to choose between. How low can you go?

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 19:39

I think the best part about this is watching the MSM try EVERYTHING it can to explain away this issue. I guess when the media votes 80% democrat each cycle, you have to carry their water as well...

I agree it has been fun to watch. Lucky for us, we can rely on NPR to provide us with simple factual reporting....:dizzy2: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Kanamori

11-01-2006, 19:40

Well, he's been ditched by the Democrats, they'll wait and see how bad it gets before they decide to boot him from the party. Although he could have a point in his attacks that the GOP is really the one to be angry at regarding troop safety, it certainly isn't going to help his image arguing that now, too much has been made of it too quickly for him to stand against it w/ Democratic talking points. He is careless of the impact of his words; he almost brought it on himself.

Anyway, seeing exactly how this plays out will be an interesting study in political sociology. I'd call it PC-disgust.

:balloon2:

PS If anyone could tell me where I led them to believe that I don't appreciate our troops or think that they are idiots, I'd be interested in knowing.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 19:47

It's astonishing, isn't it? First the stupid, offensive line, and then the arrogant refusal to apologize. Dear lord, if he isn't on Rove's payroll, at the very least he should get a gold-plated watch reading "GOP Forever."

What a freakin' idiot. To think that the last presidential cycle we had this and Bush to choose between. How low can you go?

Well, how about giving leadership of the DNC to Howard Dean? Or tapping Lamont instead of Leiberman?

My Lemury pal, it's almost as though the Dems can't function without Bill Clinton at the helm. They've let their fringe define them in a way the GOP never let the Christian Conservative rowdies get away with. It has shot them in the posterior for most of a decade and they still won't learn. Either of the two most recent presidential goes could have been won by the Dems if they fielded a decent candidate against GW.

It's like watching someone hit themselves with a hammer, repeatedly, trying to determine whether the impact of the flat end or the balpeen feels better.

I worry about it, because the lack of solid opposition inclines my GOP to stupidities, sloppiness, and encourages too much arrogance of power. These things are never healthy for a party.

Lemur

11-01-2006, 19:52

Well, there is one bright spot in all this mess -- at least he won't be a serious contender for the Democratic nomination in two years. That's done for as of now.

As for your no doubt astute comments on the Democratic party -- yeah, they're a mess. But they're the only opposition party of any size that we can play off against the corrupt-beyond-reason Republicans. I just want to get away from one-party rule. Please, Lord, let us get away from one-party rule ...

Kanamori

11-01-2006, 20:08

It's like watching someone hit themselves with a hammer, repeatedly, trying to determine whether the impact of the flat end or the balpeen feels better.

That is curious. I would closely pay attention to the pain so that I only had to hit myself once w/ each end in order to know, though.

:juggle2:

Seriously though, a thread that deserves reference: This ONE! (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=71170)

Tribesman

11-01-2006, 20:14

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Tribes and the rest of you (not wasting my time to type you ugys names out) who think it's stupid and foolish to be in the military? Oh Really? I guess you want to be blowed to hell by a Country like North Korea whenever your military disbands because of people like you guys (Kerry,Tribes,Kanamori and the rest,whoever"). They the ones who defend your nation,if you don't respect them, then mabye you should go to Iraw for a year and see how it is....

Just too funny on so many levels.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
.
Though as for your last suggestion , no thanks , only an idiot would choose to get stuck in iraq

Devastatin Dave

11-01-2006, 21:11

Looks like the troops took the "botched joke" well.
http://www.620wtmj.com/images/uploaded/Help%20Photo20061101105508.JPG

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-01-2006, 21:14

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Just too funny on so many levels.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
.
Though as for your last suggestion , no thanks , only an idiot would choose to get stuck in iraq

me? idiot,k bud.. look who's talking :no:

Divinus Arma

11-01-2006, 21:21

https://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1327/iraktq0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Seamus Fermanagh

11-01-2006, 21:27

Priceless. :laugh4: :laugh4:

On another note, it seems that they have a lead on the individual who caused the fire that killed your fellow smoke-eaters. If he's the one, I hope he doesn't see the light of day again this century.

Tribesman

11-01-2006, 21:48

me? idiot,k bud.. look who's talking
Perhaps you should , look that is , look at the words used .
They are plain and simple words .....Though as for your last suggestion , no thanks , only an idiot would choose to get stuck in iraq ...they say exactly what they say .
Do you understand them ?

Prince of the Poodles

11-01-2006, 22:06

He did say he participated in free-fire zone firefights, in harrassing and interdiction fire, using Ma Deuce rounds on people, but never acknowledged his participation in directed fire against civilians or any other simlilarly "clear cut" war crime.

I was under the same impression that Devestatin Dave was; that he had admitted to such things.

However, I have not read the transcript, or done the research you have. Thanks for setting the record straight. :bow:

ps. Still doesnt make him any less of a scumbag.. :no:

Xiahou

11-01-2006, 22:20

I think the best part about this is watching the MSM try EVERYTHING it can to explain away this issue. I guess when the media votes 80% democrat each cycle, you have to carry their water as well...
Did anyone happen to catch Chris Matthews carrying water for Kerry? It was truly amazing. Virtually any time someone said Kerry's remarks were out of line, or he should apologize, ect. He interrupted them to point out the it was clear to anyone that Kerry was really making fun of Bush and he kept reading a quote from an AP story to back it up. Inside of 15 minutes, I think I heard him interrupt his guests 4 times. :dizzy2:

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-01-2006, 22:49

Perhaps you should , look that is , look at the words used .
They are plain and simple words .....Though as for your last suggestion , no thanks , only an idiot would choose to get stuck in iraq ...they say exactly what they say .
Do you understand them ?

I do, and do you understand what I said, or do you need some help?

Tribesman

11-02-2006, 00:46

I do, and do you understand what I said, or do you need some help?
Well I understand that it was pretty meaningless , irrelevant and unintentionally hilarious .:yes:
If there is something else I missed then you had better help and point it out , or has that covered it all ?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-02-2006, 00:55

Everything is meaningless,irrelevant and unintentionally hilarious to you,even though you the one who's doing the hilarious posts,getting a laugh out of you Tribes,really am :).

Tribesman

11-02-2006, 01:06

So despite making the offer you cannot point out anything worthwhile from your post .
Would you like me to go through it piece by piece to see if it can yield any redeeming features , any worthwhile thoughts ?

Tribes and the rest of you (not wasting my time to type you ugys names out) who think it's stupid and foolish to be in the military? Oh Really? I guess you want to be blowed to hell by a Country like North Korea whenever your military disbands because of people like you guys (Kerry,Tribes,Kanamori and the rest,whoever"). They the ones who defend your nation,if you don't respect them, then mabye you should go to Iraw for a year and see how it is....

Truly very funny , but you didn't mean to be funny did you .
You perhaps intended to make a point , but ended up with just some crazy drivel .
Would you like to try and make your point again , but this time actually think about what you write so perhaps it may make some sense .