Neverwinter Nights 2 released [Archive]

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Xiahou

10-31-2006, 22:58

Anyone here get it? I'd like to hear from some of the fans of the first game to get an idea of how the sequel stacks up.

drone

10-31-2006, 23:13

Was that today? Must have just missed it, I went into BestBuy today at lunchtime and scoped out the games, they only had the pre-order boxes out.

Lemur

10-31-2006, 23:43

My local shop says tomorrow. It shipped today.

Xiahou

10-31-2006, 23:47

Yup, both Amazon and EBGames list it as available now. I'm awfully tempted to snag it, but I've already got more games than time- and with the Wii coming out in a few weeks, I want to make sure its of the caliber of the first one before I shell out for it.

Edit: It's also available for download purchase from direct2drive- personally, I'd rather have the physical copy.

Reenk Roink

11-01-2006, 01:16

Going to get it in store tomorrow. :2thumbsup:

This is the game I've been waiting for...

Somebody Else

11-01-2006, 01:48

Now look what you've gone and made me do... I've only gone and ordered that too. Ah well, that's two games coming in the post in the next fortnight or so. No prizes for guessing what the other one is.

Martok

11-01-2006, 03:25

Oh goody. Another game I want to play, but my prehistoric computer won't run. Guess I'll have to keep pinching my pennies.... *sigh*

doc_bean

11-01-2006, 10:19

I heard it's rather buggy.

doc_bean's golden rule for game purchases: don't buy anything released between october and christmas before the first major patch is released :2thumbsup:

drone

11-01-2006, 16:16

doc_bean's golden rule for game purchases: don't buy anything released bewtween october and christmas beofre the first major patch is released :2thumbsup:
Sounds like a very good rule. Rushed games are never fun to play...

Xiahou

11-01-2006, 21:29

Well, they've already got a patch out for it... not sure if that's good or bad though. :shrug:

Lemur

11-01-2006, 23:41

I have a soft spot for Obsidian -- a lot of the original Fallout guys went there. So I picked up NWN2 today, and I'll probably have just enough time to install it and create a character tonight. (Gaming is squeezed in between kiddie bedtime and dada sleep time.)

I doubt my first impressions will be worthwhile. But maybe if I get some time to play over the weekend, then I can say something intelligent. But by then there will be plenty of user reviews out. Oh well.

[edit]

Here's a collection of initial impressions (http://nwn2.warcry.com/) of the game ...

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

11-02-2006, 00:50

Is This Game Any good I might get it for X-mas if it is..

Xiahou

11-02-2006, 01:13

Here's a collection of initial impressions (http://nwn2.warcry.com/) of the game ...That reminds me of one of my concerns with NWN2- the henchmen. It says they're completely controllable- now maybe I'm alone here, but I dont want that. I prefer to get into the role of my character, not having to totally control my party members. I was happy being able to adjust their equipment and give that tactical orders- I don't want full controls since they're supposed to be your companions, not automatons.

Hopefully, it will be well done and won't create a problem. I thought the first game was great and have high hopes for Obsidian.

Martok

11-02-2006, 01:47

That reminds me of one of my concerns with NWN2- the henchmen. It says they're completely controllable- now maybe I'm alone here, but I dont want that. I prefer to get into the role of my character, not having to totally control my party members. I was happy being able to adjust their equipment and give that tactical orders- I don't want full controls since they're supposed to be your companions, not automatons.
I concur. I really don't like to micromanage stuff more than I have to, and I found it was enough just to deal with inventory and whatnot in the original Neverwinter. I wonder if there's an option to automate your henchmen? That would be nice, although I dare not hope for it. :idea2:

drone

11-02-2006, 02:30

I downloaded some NWN2 videos from IGN last night, they have a few that show combat. The vids seemed to show that the gameplay paused every so often to allow you to command all of the party members. Reminded me of a option you could use in a D&D multiplayer game some years back, where the game paused on notifications of damage and detection. It definitely chopped the action up in the videos. Hopefully you can change options to give more autonomy to the party, and let the fights flow.
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/674/674385/vids_1.html

Xiahou

11-02-2006, 05:52

Maybe a bit of good news..

According to Gamespot's (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/review.html) review, it sounds like your party members do take care of themselves for the most part- allowing you to issue commands if they get screwed up. On the down side, they complain alot about the camera control.

Kekvit Irae

11-02-2006, 12:46

I just got it and have been playing it all night. My opinion? If you cant run Oblivion smoothly on High settings (keyword: smoothly), avoid this game like the plague. If you loved NWN, keep playing that, not this heap of junk. Yes, the 3.5 rule additions are great (Monkey Grip + Greatsword + Tower Shield = yum), as are the new PrCs and the new class (Warlock), but it's NOT worth the headache of having to sludge along at 3 fps at minimum settings. As GameSpot said, it's got some pretty hefty requirements for a game that doesnt look all that much better than the original NWN. In fact, it looks worse than the original game at minimum settings.

Somebody Else

11-02-2006, 13:49

Installing now. Looking at the system specs, I could be in for a rough ride... Just about meet the requirements, though it is a laptop I'm using...

We shall see.

Lemur

11-02-2006, 15:19

It runs smoothly on my new rig, but that's hardly a surprise. I was getting some crazy crashing last night, and I suspect it's the Creative X-fi card's fault. Audigy cards are always my first suspect when I get weird crashes. I'll fiddle with the settings if I get a chance to turn it on tonight.

Looks quite lovely as a game. Sorry to hear it doesn't scale to older videocards.

GoreBag

11-02-2006, 17:14

Man, I hate 3rd ed..

Xiahou

11-03-2006, 05:35

I was out doing some shopping today and checked around for NWN2... Target, CircuitCity and Bestbuy were all sold out. My wife wants to check it out, so I still may end up getting it- but from what I've heard so far I might be better off buying the official addons for the original. I understand in their latest update Bioware added mounts.

Bob the Insane

11-03-2006, 14:26

I got it from D2D on the 31st... Almost a 5GB dowload...

Well I have to say it is pretty sweet and the adventure that comes with the game is pretty cool so far.

There has been some whinging about the graphics but I think it is very good in the looks department but you need a pretty beefy machine to make it look that way. If you have the same machine that ran NWN1 okay, then do not expect miracles...

The party members (and I use that term rather than Henchmen because it has more of a BG feel to it than a NWN1 feel) work really well and on the default AI settings (settings can be altered and configured on a per individual level) they will fight and not get to far from the lead character (the lead being the individual you are controlling at the time and not your central PC character). At any time you can hit pause and select the other characters and stack up to 5 instructions for them. You can let the AI do it's own thing completely, broadcast "orders" or disable their AI and take complete control...

The first portion of the adventure is pretty easy (well at least for my good guy fighter and crew) but it starts getting more interesting and challenging once you get to Neverwinter...

I have not played with the Toolset so can not comment on differences but this is definately NWN2, it looks similar and plays pretty much the same way as before.

The visuals are better, not awe inspiring but with lots on new fangled graphical widgets, but this aspect is prectty demanding on you hardware.

The voices of the characters are very well done, but there is quite a lot of disappointment in the recycling of the music and canned sounds (battles, towns, etc) from NWN1...

If you liked NWN1 (and have a decent machine) you should love this. If you are still pinning for BG2 then this story and party system is much better than NWN1 but still more linear and not quite as epic as BG2...

Lemur

11-03-2006, 15:11

I finally got to play a bit. Fixed the crashing (yup, it was EAX's fault). It's pretty great so far, the use of in-game cinematics reminds me of the KOTORs quite a bit. It's astonishing how many dialogues are customized for my character choices. I'm playing a dwarf fighter, and he picked up another dwarf fighter as an NPC. So far I've had three different cinematic dialogues make reference to "a pair of dwarves." Kinda neat.

I've only been able to put an hour and a half into the game; by the time I'm in a position to write a real review, I figure everyone will have played it all the way through.

Vladimir

11-03-2006, 20:05

Man, I hate 3rd ed..

Come on, it's not that baLKIj342...My keyboard seems to have malfunctioned. 3rd edition is a bit anime but some of the mods for the first one are great. Even though MTW was more fulfilling the wealth of options for NWN is amazing. I recommend A Dance With Rogues, wow :gorgeous: :kiss2: :kiss2: :kiss2: ; AND the rest of the adventure is solid. That and other mods make me wish I had continued to learn how to build a module.

I'm really looking forward to this one once it is smoothed out and after an upgrade. I just saw it at Target today. :2thumbsup:

GoreBag

11-03-2006, 22:36

Come on, it's not that baLKIj342...My keyboard seems to have malfunctioned. 3rd edition is a bit anime but some of the mods for the first one are great. Even though MTW was more fulfilling the wealth of options for NWN is amazing. I recommend A Dance With Rogues, wow :gorgeous: :kiss2: :kiss2: :kiss2: ; AND the rest of the adventure is solid. That and other mods make me wish I had continued to learn how to build a module.

I'm really looking forward to this one once it is smoothed out and after an upgrade. I just saw it at Target today. :2thumbsup:

>:-(

A friend of mine got the original the other day. There mere fact that he was third level by the time the tutorial had finished left me totally disheartened.

Pindar

11-04-2006, 08:47

I've never played Neverwinter Nights. I haven't played Oblivian either. What is the difference between the two? Do you who know prefer one over the other, if so why?

Keba

11-04-2006, 09:31

Neverwinter Nights is more like the old Balgur's Gate and Icewind Dale series, whereas Oblivion is ... uh, Elder Scrolls, there's no real comparison.

Oblivion is, essentially, complete freedom. Follow the story or not, your choice, it also tends to be more action oriented.

On the other hand, NWN is more limited, linear, one might say, but those parts tend to be more filled. Unlike Oblivion, the story drives the whole thing forward, opening up new areas, closing off others.

I had some dislike for the original NWN (this was later absolved by the modules) because the story had a lot of parallels (to other game stories) and cliches to it, but it nevertheless was a good game.

I dislike the whole one party member only system, but that seems to be gone. It was next to impossible to play a wizard. You need a fighter to guard you, but you also need a cleric to heal you, and, of course, a rogue is useful for opening doors and chests ... and you can only pick one.:wall:

I like both, but my loyalty is to NWN and the like over Oblivion. A more immersive plot that drives things forward. Oblivion has everything at the starting point (changing only a little), whereas the other actually alter the enviroment. That, and I can't help feeling that characters are better in NWN.

A good example is Oblivion's Siege of Kvatch. You pass by, a guy tells you the city was overrun last night. You play on for a few weeks in-game, and later nobody knows Kvatch is in trouble, despite it being barely a day's journey from the nearest city. You even get soldiers who run up and say they saw smoke from their patrol.

Whereas NWN and the like will put you in a city, then, when all hell breaks loose will replace the city set with a different one depicting the situation.

That said, the stores here are out-of-touch ... they still haven't gotten NWN 2.:help:

econ21

11-04-2006, 09:46

Pindar, I would summarise the differences between NWN and Oblivion as follows:

1) NWN follows the Dungeons and Dragons (DnD) rules pretty faithfully. These are the dominant RPG ruleset and so are pretty sound. Oblivion creates its own idiosyncratic rules, which have some nice features (use a skill more and it develops) but also some quirks (it pays to stand around getting hit, to build up your armour skill). DnD tends to induce you to specialise a character (a fighter-mage is a bad idea) whereas Oblivion shines in allowing you to mix and customise your skills. Personally, I think DnD is made for a party (4+ players) where every member can do their thing; but Oblivion is more suited to a soul protagonist (where one character must do everything).

2). Both games in single play mode revolve around a sole protagonist. In NWN, you have a henchman or two but they never really substitute for a proper party that you can control. In Oblivion, you are largely on your own.

3) NWN has a big multiplayer aspect - you can play online with others if you want and so recreate some of the social feel of pen and paper DnD. Oblivion is SP only.

4) Historically, I would say DnD tends more towards story telling, role playing proper and tactical combat whereas Oblivion is more in the action RPG genre. In NWN, whether you hit an enemy depends on your character's skill not your own; in Oblivion, there is more of a FPS feel where being good at clicking comes into play. Some of the distinction got blurred, as NWN lost most of the tactical combat (when it lost the DnD party) and Oblivion has improved on some of the story/character stuff from Morrowind.

5) The official campaign of NWN is rather bland and unchallenging. Where NWN shines is in the many mods that people create for whole new adventures. Some are absolutely stunning (the Shadowlands/Dreamcatcher series, for example) and rival any commercial CRPG. I get the feeling the Morrowind/Oblivion mods are more to customise the official campaign rather than tell a whole new story but maybe I am wrong.

6) Graphically, Oblivion is pretty drop dead gorgeous, whereas NWN is showing its age and never looked that good (perhaps because it was based around tilesets).

7). NWN has a very powerful editor which allows gamers to make all the great modules that are out. Oblvion/Morrowind shines more in the great world's already created for you - some people called Morrowind a great virtual world simulator rather than a great game and there is some truth to that.

I am hoping NWN2 will keep many of the virtues of NWN (the sound DnD system) but add more of the elements that made its predecessor, Baldur's Gate, so good. That is to say, better plot, characters and more of a party.

To conclude, I would guess that Oblivion appeals more to people who like action RPGs (Diablo?) whereas NWN appeals more to those who like more hardcore RPGs (Baldurs Gate?).

EDIT: Keba beat me to the punch - I largely agree with him. Off-topic: just noticed this is my number 5000 post; glad it is a fairly substantive one!

Kekvit Irae

11-04-2006, 10:24

Let's not forget the most important distinctions:
Oblivion is a first-person shooter RPG with an option to go into chase-cam mode.
NWN is a classic real-time third-person RPG with the option to pause and tactically think out your actions.

It's like comparing apples to bananas. They are both fruit, but totally different.

And congrats, econ, on your 5000GET

Pindar

11-04-2006, 18:07

Thank you Keba and econ21 for your very detailed replies: never having played either I really had no context to judge.

:bow:

Xiahou

11-05-2006, 04:13

I dislike the whole one party member only system, but that seems to be gone. It was next to impossible to play a wizard. You need a fighter to guard you, but you also need a cleric to heal you, and, of course, a rogue is useful for opening doors and chests ... and you can only pick one.:wall::Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...

Kekvit Irae

11-05-2006, 04:43

A character specialized in necromancy (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus) can do some serious damage with spells like Wail of the Banshee. Gnomes make great illusionists because they already have Spell Focus: Illusion, freeing up a feat to spend on something like Toughness or armor proficiency feats for use with Still Spell.

Lone-wolf Wizards and Sorcerers have a better time in NWN than they do with a group in a real D&D game.
Out of spells? If you are playing D&D with a gaming group, you will have to sit out the entire session if resting is nowhere in sight (a constent annoyance in a Living Greyhawk game). If you are playing NWN, one hit of the R button and you are good to go again.
Traps and locks? In D&D, you'll need either ranks in the cross-class skills of Disable Device and Open Locks or get yourself a Rogue. In NWN, Find Traps disables all traps except the quest ones (read: Isle of the Maker) in a huge radius, and Knock does the same for all locks.
One hitpoint? In D&D, no amount of bandages will help you without resting without magical assistance. In NWN, use a healing kit and you are back to full instantly.
Multiple enemies? Isaac's Greater Missile Swarm and Greater Sanctuary.

Keba

11-05-2006, 09:41

Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...
Oh, that doesn't mean I didn't play a mage, rogue or any class, really. I did, I just found it a lot less fun that it would have been with a party. That, and having only one person to converse with left out all the party banter that I came to love so much in Baldur's Gate 2.

Now, if only the damned shops here get this, finally. Last time it took them two months. ~:mecry:

Kekvit Irae

11-05-2006, 09:50

Hordes of the Underdark gave you an extra companion for a total of three party members, and countless mods give you multiple companions. It's amusing to see the witless and witty conversations and rebukes between your henchmen, especially between Deekin and both Arabeths.

Bob the Insane

11-06-2006, 14:04

not quite as epic as BG2...

Quoting myself here but having played further through the campaign and it is pretty darn epic!

Still not a broad as BG2 perhaps but plenty epic!!

Vladimir

11-06-2006, 16:20

Really? My favorite character for NWN1 was magic-user specialized in necromancy. The first few levels were challenging, but she was devastatingly powerful later on...

I’ve found the most satisfying character to play a Rogue, Shadowdancer, Weaponmaster.

Starting off as a rogue is a bit tricky as you may need a henchman or do a lot of cheesy run away, and shoot type combat. This is countered by the fact that you get all the normal rogue goodies to include many skill points and the use magic item ability. The latter lets you cast spells from scrolls making you a de facto mage and later on allows you to use some nice equipment that you normally couldn’t use.

The Shadowdancer can be a bit like Cheesedancer; if the enemy doesn’t have True Seeing you can run away, hide in plain sight, and sneak around to backstab ad infinitum.

The Weaponmaster class allows you to emulate a fighter to give you massive weapon bonuses. A rapier is best for this class as you can use Weapon Finesse with it.

I hope I can create a similar character in NWN2 as it’s the best I’ve found for soloing. Of course, that is, after the price drops considerably. I was able to get NWN diamond for $20.

Oh yes...and this is coming from a former Paladin fanatic.

Vladimir

11-06-2006, 16:34

>:-(

A friend of mine got the original the other day. There mere fact that he was third level by the time the tutorial had finished left me totally disheartened.

What's the problem? All I want is to be level 40 with 1000 hit points. :laugh4:

frogbeastegg

11-24-2006, 15:49

Any update on a patch? I'm waiting for one before I take the plunge. The Bioware forums are running at the speed of an arthritic asmatic snail in superglue, so checking there isn't proving terribly successful.

econ21

11-24-2006, 17:42

Any update on a patch?

There's been two already and a 1.03 beta is available, although I am not bothering with it now. I suspect it will be like NWN1 - almost continual patches, to incrementally add new stuff.

Beefeater

11-24-2006, 18:07

Got it when it came out although I've had very little time to play. Enjoying going through with Hidalgo, my boastful and none-too-bright swashbuckling duellist. He certainly looks the part in his floppy hat.

Justiciar

11-24-2006, 19:13

I've got to say.. I'm really not very fond of this game at all. I can't put my finger on it, but it just feels like a steaming pile of poo. :no:

doc_bean

11-24-2006, 19:27

I've got to say.. I'm really not very fond of this game at all. I can't put my finger on it, but it just feels like a steaming pile of poo. :no:

What other RPGs do you like/dislike ?

Kekvit Irae

11-24-2006, 19:40

I just tried the beta patch, and my framerate just skyrocketed! It's definitely an improvement

frogbeastegg

11-24-2006, 22:51

Ah, might be time to give it a go then.

Reenk Roink

11-25-2006, 00:47

Here's the lowdown on everything the patch fixes... (http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=38772)

New Features

General
• Weapon combos in hotbar: Added the ability to set up dual weapon, weapon & shield, or weapon & torch combos in the hotbar. Clicking the hotbar button for a weapon you already have equipped will unequip it.

• Camera Changes: We’ve made a series of camera changes to this version:
o New options for adjusting sensitivity for controlling the camera by keyboard, mouse, and edge of screen.
o Chase Cam adjusted to work more like NWN1.
o In free cam mode, the arrow keys now pan the camera, and holding down CTRL will zoom and yaw the camera.
o Added bindable keyboard key for mouse look / camera control. This mimics functionality of pressing down the middle mouse button for those without a middle mouse button.

• Graphics Optimizations: A number of new graphics optimizations have been added:
o Anti-Aliasing Support: Anti-aliasing is now supported and can be enabled in the Options Menu. Please note: This could significantly affect frame rate, depending on your hardware.
o Shadow Rendering: Shadow rendering speed has been improved.
o Tree Rendering: Speed improvements to the rendering of trees.
o Water Rendering: Speed improvements to how water is rendered by the engine.

• New Options:
o Buy/Sell Confirmation: You can now turn off the buy/sell confirmation dialog.
o Options menu has been reorganized to support many new camera control options.
o You can now change keybindings in game.

• Database Support:
o The database script functions from NWN1 have been re-enabled. They are now significantly faster in many cases.

Multiplayer
• Improved /t style chat.

DM Client
• Added initial support for hotbar buttons and context menus.
• Added in party bar. It will only list the connected players in the game and not who is in your faction.
• You can now hover over menu items in the Chooser instead of having to click on them first.
• “Very Easy” difficulty option has been restored.
• The DM chat channel is once again available via the /dm prefix.

Scripting
• EffectWildshape() – New function for Wildshape effect.
• GetEncumbranceState () - Added script function to get the encumbrance state of a given player
• GetPlayerCreatureExamineTarget() - Added script function to get the current creature examine target for a player
• PackCampaignDatabase() – A new database feature to NWN2, this will pack the campaign database and purge deleted records from a database.
• GetPlayerTargetObject() – New script function to get the current selected target object for a given player.
• UnlinkDoor() – New script command to turn an area transition door into a normal door.
• Database support has been added, including new PackCampaignDatabase() function.

Toolset
• Added a load screen image previewer.
• Added item icon previewer.
• Area names and tags now default to the area’s file name for new areas.
• The spell tab now shows multiple instances of spells, so creatures can have multiple instances of a spell with different metamagic types.
• Right-clicking while placing tiles now rotates the tile.
• The first column and row of the 2DA viewer are now pinned, making it easier to use.
• Changes on item blueprints will now be propagated to items in creature or placeable inventories, or that are equipped on creatures.
• Added new option to the File menu that allows the user to compile only currently open scripts.
• There is a new panel in the script editor that allows the user to insert scripts from the NWN2ToolsetTemplates folder into the current script.
• Script search functionality changed to bring up all results in one result window and the user can double-click to open up that search result.
• Item cost calculations added to the item properties.
• New visual style.
• Doors now have a flag that allows them to render an invisible area transition (aka an invisible "black door.") This is adjustable in the toolset. This is to address concerns with the “black area” behind open doors and how silly it looked on open gates in the middle of Neverwinter, etc.
• When users enter a string ref, they can also check a box to say that the string ref is from the custom file and the string returned will be from that file instead of the main .tlk table.
• Feminine versions of strings are now editable.
• Hex values can now be used as string references within 2DAs. This makes it easier to use custom TLK files with 2DAs.
• The script editor runs faster and uses less memory.

Bug Fixes

General
• Animal Companions, Familiars, and Summoned Creatures are now unsummoned when a roster member is being despawned. This will address problems where companions can become familiars on transitions.
• Some minor adjustments to the pathing system to prevent characters from being put into illegal areas.
• Split out Armored Caster feat into class specific feats for Bards and Warlocks to properly apply spell failure percentages. This will allow users who add new classes to give them specific armored casting ability easily.
• Some minor fixes to drop shadow rendering.
• The debug DirectX check has been removed – some users had problems running the game, even without the DirectX SDK being installed.
• The game would crash when a module with more than 16,000 objects was loaded.
• Fixed a memory leak related to grass that would occur in certain areas.

Multiplayer
• Fixed issue when a player was resurrected by another player, the “respawn” button would stay up on their screen, and could be used to restore life and remove effects.

DM Client
• Added larger “+” buttons for the Chooser and Creator to make them easier to click on.
• Fixed some issues with keymapping.
• Player list is used instead of the party list when displaying party members on the minimap and areamap.
• DM’s can now area transition while possessing something and the entire faction doesn’t come with them.
• Fixed issue with trying to possess a creature in a different area than the one the DM is currently standing in.
• Fixed mouse action target for Dungeon Masters, so they don't start conversations with everyone. Also fixed highlight, so they can't always highlight themselves.
• DM can now move around while game is paused.
• Moved feats granted to a DM character from being hard-coded to a new flag in the feat.2da, "DMFeat". If it's marked as 0, the DM doesn't get it; as 1, he does.
• NWN database bug: Variables names are now properly truncated to 32 characters in all cases.

Effects/Spells
• If weapon trails are disabled in the options menu, hit and parry visuals are disabled as well.
• Character validation was not taking Spellcasting Prodigy into account for a number of spells wizards learn at first level.
• You no longer get max spells after unequipping an ability boost item, then an extra spell slot item. Also, changed extra spell slot items so that they only grant extra spell slots if you are capable of casting spells of that level.
• Neutralize Poison should not remove Disease and Ability Decrease effects.
• Lowered Frenzy damage to 6 per round.
• You can no longer recover traps with DC 20 or higher if you do not have the Trapfinding feat. If you try to disarm or recover a DC 20+ trap without Trapfinding, you will receive feedback that success is never possible; it is still possible to suffer a critical failure and have the trap go off on you. You can still flag, examine, and set a trap of any DC without Trapfinding; you can also always disarm or recover a trap you set yourself.
• EffectShareDamage() was not actually applying damage to the caster.
• Some fixes to global scripts on how spells affect NPCs, etc., in Hardcore mode.
• Finger of Death affects players in multiplayer mode now.
• Heal spells no longer call a touch attack when cast on undead.
• The Mass Inflict Line of spells now properly call a will save instead of a Fort save.
• The Mass Inflict Line of spells have now been updated to have the same behavior as Mass Inflict Light Wounds in regards to target discrimination and undead.
• Mass Inflict Light Wounds no longer harms hostile undead. Neither will it heal them. The healing effect is only applied to friendly undead.
• Casting Mage Armor on a character who already has Improved Mage Armor applied will no longer remove the stronger spell.
• Improved Mage Armor now correctly provides +6 AC rather than +8.
• The duration on Tymora’s Smile has been corrected.
• The spells Foundation of Stone, Body of Sun, Jagged Tooth, Tortoise Shell, Swamp Lung, Storm Avatar, and Nature's Avatar now properly apply their metamagic abilities.
• Tymora's Smile is now self-cast only.
• Crafting wands, potions, and scrolls was not working for many spells. All spells should now craft properly.
• Soothing Light will now auto-cast when selected.
• Guarding the Lord will now only target other creatures.
• Warlock Darkness now has the same targeting UI as arcane Darkness.
• Mass Heal now has a range of "close."
• The Mass Cure line of spells now uniformly have a range of "close."
• Old behavior for Bigby's 3 was causing some creatures to become paralyzed rather than immobilized in order to simulate grappling. This allowed them a chance to break out on a will save. The paralysis effect has been replaced with an immobilization effect.
• Prismatic Spray was always petrifying, rather than applying a random effect. This is fixed.
• Web and Greater Shadow Conjuration/Web now have the same targeting UI.
• Greater Fireburst will no longer damage the caster on hardcore difficulty.
• Fireburst will no longer harm the caster.
• Iron Horn now properly uses a cone shape instead of a sphere.
• Foundation of stone was calculating its duration in seconds rather than rounds. This has been fixed.
• Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang now can be applied to any animal, beast, or vermin. This includes wildshaped druids.
• Missile Storm will no longer target friendlies on hardcore mode.
• Bombardment now knocks down targets on a failed save.
• Blade Barrier now plays a species specific blood spray when it damages a target.
• Destruction now checks the target for death immunity.

Items
• Changed Holy Avenger bonus damage from 1d6 to 2d6 vs. evil.

Scripting
• AttemptToDisarmTrap() - Returns FALSE if character cannot path to trap instead of assuming they don't have the skill points to do so.
• GetArmorRank - Returns whether an equipped item is ARMOR_RANK_NONE, _LIGHT, _MEDIUM, or _HEAVY
• GetSpellLevel() wasn’t taking cleric domains into account. This has been fixed.
• GetWeaponType() – Lets Keen Edge spell also affect piercing weapons.
• TalentSpellFilter() – This has been standardized in regards to Keen Edge and Weapon of Impact.
• Added script command gr_character_xml run from console that will export character data in XML format to the log.
• Fixed X2_inc_switches constant that was causing the override spellscript and the tagbased script prefix to overwrite each other.
• NPC casters can no longer affect themselves with AOE spells in Hardcore+ difficulty
• NPCs of non-opposed factions can no longer affect each other with AOE spells in Hardcore+ difficulty
• Added additional effects and fixed parameter listing for ga_effect.
Crafting
• 'Medalion of Thought' recipe now gives that item instead of the 'Talisman of Pure Evil'
• The 'Armor of Arrow Deflection' recipe now gives the correct effect and not 'Spell Specialization: Abjuration' on the Armor enchanted
• 'Invulnerable Armor' recipe now give Damage Reduction Effect
• 'Posion Weapon' recipe now give poison effect
• The 'Armor of Spell Resistance' recipes now gives spell resistance effect.
• Crafted wands, and scrolls now give the correct class restrictions based on class spell lists.
• Wands and potions now take into account the class and level of the caster for determining if the max spell level is surpasses instead of using the innate level of a spell.
• removed item cast at item restriction for spell storing devices (wands, potions, scrolls)
• Reduced cost of 0 level spells for wands, potions, and scrolls by half
• Added warlock darkness crafting recipes for Gold Filigree Charm and Infernal Focus
• Number of charges for newly crafted wand now defaults to 50.

Interface
• Fixed a bug where screen edge turning was frame rate dependent, making the camera behave differently based on graphics settings or area.
• Fixed a few minor bugs with mouse selection.
• Save game name will now show up properly when overwriting savegames.
• Fixed issue where gaining bonus feats from items were not causing a refresh of the character sheet.
• The character ‘ø’ has been added to our fonts.
• Context Menu Delay slider and Weapon trail Option are now properly saved and read in correctly.
• You can no longer resize on of the multiplayer chat windows offscreen.
• You can now click past feat selection if you have no feats to select. You lose that feat pick permanently. This was added so characters with low stats in core abilities could process through level up.

Toolset
• Turning off fog along with the “use area far plane” option now works correctly, and will render the area up to the far plane specified in the Graphics section of the Options screen.
• Oriented billboards in visual effects will now render correctly in the toolset.
• Weapon scaling now looks correct in the toolset.
• Fixed a bug with the script and conversation search windows stealing focus.
• Fixed a bug with changes to spells not getting saved if the active tab was changed before changes were applied.
• Level 9 spells are now saved correctly for creatures.
• Font preferences are now saved correctly.
• Fixed a bug where docking windows would snap closed if a drop-down box was used while they were shown.
• Reduction in memory pre-allocation by half. This should address some customer reported issues with the toolset crashing on load.
• Some improvements to script editor speed and reductions in memory usage.
• Fixed a bug where placed instances of stores weren't copying the "infinite" flag for items.
• Fixed memory leak when erasing grass.
• Fixed issue for non-English versions where some required toolset preferences were not being loaded.
• Module variables are now displayed under the “Scripts” category.
• Fixed bug where turning off light spheres would turn off sound spheres.
• Focus wouldn’t change properly when clicking on the propertygrid or the blueprint view. Fixed.
• Fixed crash when trying to modify prefabs in the universal blueprint changer.
• Fix for an exception that could be thrown if a journal was modified from code (like a plugin.)
• Fixed inability to modify camera orientation, Orientation has been re-enabled.
• Some fixes to toolset memory management to improve stability.
• Floating windows that are offscreen will be moved back onscreen on startup.
• Newly-created blueprints will have their template property set to the same name as the blueprint.
• Fixed a bug where creating new item blueprints, assigning them to a creature or placeable, and then immediately placing the creature or placeable would result in the item having incorrect properties.
• Fixed a bug in the script editor where certain NWN-specific data types would confuse the parameter info display.
• Using the “Find All” button in the script search window now displays all results in a popup window. Users can select the matching script/line they want to view.
• An estimated value for the cost of an item (before appraise rolls etc) has been added to the properties of items.
• Updated look and feel of the tab controls.
• Fixed a bug with the “Save” button in the world map editor. It will no longer corrupt map images.

The folks at Obsidian addressed every major issue with the game. :smiley:

I'm going to hold off downloading the beta and wait for the official patch, as I'm not having the problems like others, but if they worry you, give it a go!

Justiciar

11-25-2006, 20:43

What other RPGs do you like/dislike ?
Well that's the odd thing.. I loved Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, found Icewind Dale to be brilliant, and even enjoyed NWN1. All of which had a lot in common with NWN2. But for some reason it just doesn't have the same kind of feel that those games had. Just feels like bland AD&D, jam-packed with cliches. Well.. I say that, but I haven't played the single player game at any great length. Nor do I intend to. :no:

frogbeastegg

11-26-2006, 11:50

Anyone want to help a frog build a plan for her character? The UK manual is completely useless, a flimsy little pamphlet which tells you nothing about the character stats, classes, feats and whathaveyou. There's no link to a PDF manual in the NWN2 start menu folder either. I don't even know what classes and so on are in the game. Not impressed. :rtwno:

I want a character who is similar to one I built in Baldur's Gate 2 (kensai/sorcerer) or to the one I had in the original NWN (I can't remember what he was! Think shiny knight in armour with the ability to cast fireballs; he had little devil-like wings too for some reason), or even to my character in KotOR (jedi who fights with his lightsabre for most of the time but wades in and blasts with the force in tough battles).

I want a character who:
- Is human! I am not going to be some weird freak. I hate elves.
- Is of one of the good alignments.
- Uses a sword. Vital, this. A nice longsword or katana or something, not a silly rapier. Possibly paired with a shield, maybe, if he's not using a two-handed weapon.
- Has a good amount of HPs and will be able to survive quite easily.
- Perhaps wears nice shiny armour, like plate. However, if he's got enough protection without armour then I'll be happy without it as long as there's something I can make the character wear to look vaguely decent. I'm not wandering around looking like some farmer or generic NPC.
- Can fight respectably, handling most combat situations through the infinitely renewable free resource of Stabbing Things.
- Can break out some hefty magic in dire situations. By magic I mean big fireballs of doom, not all this turn undead rubbish. Buffing spells are acceptable as an additional line to damaging spells, as are enemy nerfing ones.
- Can do a bit of healing, perhaps.

I need to know everything - classes, starting stats, when to swap classes for best benefit, which skills, feats and traits are good and which should be avoided, etc - because the documentation has left me entirely blind, and because I only dabble with AD&D when there's a good PC game which uses it. The last I played with this specific system was a couple of years ago. I know it's very easy to hamstring your character by doing something simple, such as swapping classes one level to late. I want to start this character and go right through to the end of the game with him on my first go. No restarting because he's not good enough, or I made a mistake by picking skill X not skill Y.

Thanks.

Kekvit Irae

11-26-2006, 17:44

If you want just a sword monkey in heavy plate, I'd go with either a fighter or a paladin. The paladin can cast a few spells later on, and has access to Cure Disease, and immunity to fear and disease.

Unfortunately, you also want someone with lows of magic, and not the clerical kind either. So I'd take one level of paladin and then advance in sorcerer (both classes make extensive use of Charisma), so not only do you have a sword and armor, you can cast your spells you want. Unfortunately, not only are you one level behind pure sorcerers, you'll need the Still Spell metamagic feat to be able to cast in armor without your spells miscasting due to the arcane armor penalty. This means that a third level fireball will need to be prepared as a fourth level spell, increasing the level you have access to it from 5 (for third level spells) to 7 (for fourth level spells), AND you still have that paladin level tacked on so you will have to have a total of 8 class levels.

However, clerics are not the happy-happy heal-heal casters they were in Baldur's Gate and other games. Clerics in NWN can hold their own with spells, AND can cast them with no armor penalty (being divine, not arcane). Most of your first and second level spells will be buffs (which, because you are a cleric, can be converted to heal spells on the fly without praying for them), which is not a bad thing, actually. Grab yourself the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat so you can wield the big toys, grab the Strength Domain to buff yourself up in the heat of battle, and then take Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance as buff spells to make yourself more powerful than a fighter equal to your level. Once you hit a certain level, you will have access to excellent offensive spells such as flamestrike. If you want to use a sword and a shield, get Monkey Grip as a feat so you can wield that greatsword or greataxe in one hand and a shield in another (or, even better, two greatswords if you have the duel-wielding feats)

Being Human, you get a free feat automatically, so I suggest you put that into Luck Of Heros. Unlike the PnP version, LoH gives you not only +1 to all saves, but +1 to your armor class. Your second feat is negotiable, but I primarily take Dodge for an extra +1 armor class.

If you want to go cleric, you stats should look similar to this:

Str: 12 or above (for melee potential)
Dex: 13 (in full plate, the max dex bonus you can get is only +1, and you can get Dodge at 13 dex)
Con: 10 or above (again, for melee potential)
Int: 12 or above (clerics get lousy skill points, intelligence will help offset this)
Wis: 16 (you will be increasing this as you go along, so 16 is really all you need starting out)
Cha: 12 or above (for turn undead and diplomacy)

For skills, diplomacy and lore is a must. Being able to talk your way out of a fight, and being able to identify that uber magic item you just found are vital.
Healing is optional, but if you are going cleric, you have no need of this.
Two cross-class skills I definately would pick up are Use Magic Device (to wield all the magic items you cant use and cast from arcane scrolls like FIREBALL) and Tumble. Every five ranks in tumble you buy, you gain another +1 to your armor class.
Spellcraft is a good skill to have if you are mindful of enemy spellcasters. It will boost your saving throws against magic in the same way tumble boosts your armor class, every five ranks.

econ21

11-27-2006, 01:03

Frogbeastegg: the way DnD works in 3rd edition, it is rather hard to get a decent character who can wield a sword and throw out fireballs in a pinch. The whole system is geared up around class specialisation, with a party making sure all the bases are covered. If you want a fighter-mage type, you are better off with Morrowind/Oblivion.[1]

That said, the compensation of NWN2 is that you do have a semi-decent sized party this time round. You have your character plus 3 others, any of which you can instantly jump into to micromanage - just like KOTOR, which IIRC, you have played. So my advice based on what you say, would be to go for the fighter or paladin that Kek mentioned and let one of your party members break out the fireballs when needed. (By the same logic, your other two members should ideally be a cleric and a thief, to make sure all bases are covered). I'm undecided what character to go for but may go for a fighter-paladin dual class, which should probably get most of the pally's advantages while getting a few more fighter feats and giving me a few more choices on level up.

However, if you do want to persist with the fighter-mage idea, you might check out the eldritch knight. Or indeed, the red dragon disciple. These are prestige classes that seem to combine melee and magic. (The eldritch kngiht explicitly; the RDD gets amazing stats bonuses that really help in combat.) Note that with high dexterity and magic armour (plus some of the protections like stone skin etc), you can get a decent armour class and defensive ability even without the full plate etc.

One other thought - you could check out a druid. They are beefier than a mage, but have a decent amount of offensive magic.

The character creation process in NWN2 is very informative, BTW.

There's also a very nice excel character builder you could try - it's the CharacterBuildCalculator for NWN2 (CBC2), made by Kamiryn:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2Other.Detail&id=9

I also found the gamespot guide Part I excellent - really good on how to buff up your party.

[1]The reason why the fighter-mage idea is not great in 3rd ed, is that the number of experience points you need to go up a level depends on your character level, not your class level. So a level 19 mage can choose whether to have a level 1 fighter's powers as well or get a the 20th level of mage. With mages, at each level, the mage gets more and more powerful - the higher level spells are great and you get more lower level spells too. So typically, you would rather have more of those cool spells than a few hit points. And a 10 fighter-10 mage would normally get whooped by either a 20 level fighter or a 20 level mage.

The other perennial problem is penalties for casting magic in armour. Do you really want to be stripping off your plate in a dungeon, just because you might fancy flinging a fireball?

Plus mages have really lousy to hit chances.

Kekvit Irae

11-27-2006, 01:29

I have yet to see anyone go for full Fighter. Too many feats. That's one of the main turnoffs of the Fighter in the original NWN. Unless you are going for Weapons Master and need all those combat feats, going even 10 levels of Fighter is a waste for the sole reason that you will not be using all those combat feats you gain. More than likely, you will only be using a few (read: Improved Knockdown) exclusively and leaving the rest behind. In the PnP version, a high level Fighter can deal some serious damage using their feats tactically, but other than the feats, there is no additional benefit to increasing your level in Fighter except for the high Base Attack Bonus and hit points. And even then it's a good thing to go into something else like Rogue (for Sneak Attack and skills), Paladin (for immunities), or Ranger (for those who like duel-wielding).

Druids are a decent choice for a mix of melee/magic, but they suffer in that they have a lack of choice in armor and weapons selection, whereas Clerics can wear full plate from level 1. They do, however, recieve an animal companion at level 1, which is a very good thing for Druids who are thinking of going into Rogue (read: Sneak Attack). Once they hit level 5, however, they stop being the bastard child of the party and start becoming tanks thanks to Wild Shape. A pure Druid at level 20 is an army all herself.

In my personal opinion, I absolutely love my Weapons Master. I am unsure if the benefits of Keen stacks with Improved Critical in NWN2 (it was changed in 3.5 to not stack), but Weapons Master is still a force to behold. 6 levels of Fighter to gain the required feats with a focus in scythes. Thanks to NWN2, scythes are no longer exotic weapons, and thus no longer need an extra feat to specialize in. A 6th level Fighter / 7th level Weapons Master can turn the critical range of the scythe from x4 into 17-20/x5 (1 for Improved Critical or Keen, 2 for 7th lvl Weapons Master). If Improved Crit does stack with Keen, it further lowers the crit range to 16-20. But by far my favorite weapon for Weapons Master is the Greatsword. At 6lvl/7lvl, this weapon goes from 19-20/x2 to 15-20/x3 without stacking Imp Crit and Keen, and 13-20/x3 with. Combine that with Monkey Grip and duel wielding, and you have a lot of damage potential right there.

frogbeastegg

11-27-2006, 22:42

Ah - red dragon disciple! That's what my Hordes of Underdark character ended up as, hence the little wings. He wore full red plate armour, a steel bucket helm trimmed with red, wielded a longsword which had red hilt furniture for some reason, and a shield of some sort. Not only did he look rather awesome, he slaughtered everything and anything the expansion threw at me with ease with only Deekin for back up. :yes: Most enjoyable character I've taken through a AD&D game. IIRC he didn't have to take his armour off to cast either ... think it was a matter of picking spells carefully, or having a feat to enable it, or something. If it were possible to rebuilt this character I’d love to use it again in NWN2. Anyone got any guesses as to how I managed it?

Having given it a day's thought I have decided the notion of being a cleric isn't as rancid as it was with the old rules. If I can't find anything which appeals more I'll try it; it doesn't sound bad by any means, only it lacks a certain ... spark. How easy is it to get a cleric wielding a sword? In the old games they simply couldn't, and the Gamespot guide says they can't use most bladed weapons. Also, what about prestige classes and potential good dual class options? :wishes once more that she had some decent documentation for the game!:

Druid? :shivers: The idea of being a tree-hugging hippie who wibbles on about nature being wonderful while morphing into bears and tangling people up with vines is not appealing. I'd rather be an elf, heck even an elven ranger, than a druid.

the way DnD works in 3rd edition, it is rather hard to get a decent character who can wield a sword and throw out fireballs in a pinch. The whole system is geared up around class specialisation, with a party making sure all the bases are covered.
~:( I heard that the 3rd edition rules were there to let you create the kind of character you wanted, without the rigid and annoying confines of the older rulesets. So good mages in armour were meant to be do-able.

As for Oblivion, I prefer something with a good story. Morrowind was fine for a dabble, but ultimately it couldn't hold my interest.

I played - and loved - KOTOR. Went through it start to finish 3 times at least. Didn't finish the second one though; too buggy, too unfinished, and the plot suffered badly from the game being rushed out the doors. One of the most disappointing games I've ever played.

Kekvit Irae

11-27-2006, 22:54

Yes, 3rd edition and 3.5 rules allow your mage to wear full plate and still cast spells, as well as your cleric to wield anything with a blade. The problem is that these benefits are offset with penalties. Your arcane mage in full plate is going to receive a MINIMUM of a 45% chance to fizzle any spell she casts while in full plate (lighter armors = less penalty). Moreso if she uses a shield. And your cleric wielding a greatsword? She'll have a -4 penalty to hit because she isnt proficient in it.

In NWN, however, things are slightly different. In this case, you cant wear armor or use weapons you are not proficient in. Mages cannot wear full plate without having to take all three armor proficiency feats (Light, then Medium, then Heavy, plus Shields if you want to wear one) or one level of Fighter/Paladin. Your cleric cannot wield that greatsword without taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat or one level of Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian.

However, for the cleric it is easy enough to do that since humans get a free feat at first level. Put that feat into Martial Weapon Proficiency and you'll be able to use any non-exotic weapon in the game. For a mage, take Silent Spell feat and you'll be able to bypass the miscast penalty.

econ21

11-28-2006, 00:18

Ah - red dragon disciple! That's what my Hordes of Underdark character ended up as, hence the little wings. ....If it were possible to rebuilt this character I’d love to use it again in NWN2.

To be honest, if you have played through HoTU, you know 99% of what you need to build a good character. Both NWN and NWN2 were 3ed DnD - IIRC, what's changed is the move from 3.0 to 3.5, which seems a rather minimal revision; plus NWN2 has some of the character creation stuff introduced in Icewind Dale 2 (sub-races). I suspect you could rebuild your character, although there is a level 20 cap to contend with.

Having given it a day's thought I have decided the notion of being a cleric isn't as rancid as it was with the old rules.

I was surfing Bioware's forums today and someone was arguing that clerics were the uber class in 3.0. No one seemed to seriously dispute the point.

Druid? :shivers: The idea of being a tree-hugging hippie who wibbles on about nature being wonderful while morphing into bears and tangling people up with vines is not appealing. I'd rather be an elf, heck even an elven ranger, than a druid.

So you will be glad to hear the romantic interest for males is apparently an elven druid. :laugh4: Maybe you want to rebuild your RDD character as a female this time round?

I played - and loved - KOTOR. Went through it start to finish 3 times at least. Didn't finish the second one though; too buggy, too unfinished, and the plot suffered badly from the game being rushed out the doors. One of the most disappointing games I've ever played.

KOTOR was great. Although I liked KOTOR2 equally. At what point did you give up on it? I actually liked the end - although clearly rushed, it had quite an impact on me. Partly this was emotional - defeating the main enemy at the end was very sad, unlike the triumphant end to KOTOR1. And partly, it was intellectual - because the story was rather rushed and incomplete, and you did not get to see all of it due to the influence system, it preyed on my mind for a few days. Sometimes the absence of closure is good.

Zenicetus

11-28-2006, 02:10

To be honest, if you have played through HoTU, you know 99% of what you need to build a good character. Both NWN and NWN2 were 3ed DnD - IIRC, what's changed is the move from 3.0 to 3.5, which seems a rather minimal revision; plus NWN2 has some of the character creation stuff introduced in Icewind Dale 2 (sub-races). I suspect you could rebuild your character, although there is a level 20 cap to contend with.

Right... the level cap and design of the initial campaign may argue against aiming for something like the Red Dragon Disciple. HOTU started you out at a higher level and then got into epic levels, didn't it? So you could play longer with those higher-end classes.

If the initial campaign in NWN2 is like the first one in NWN, starting at level one (I don't know... I haven't bought it yet), then it would be better to pick a basic class you'll be happy with right away, instead of something you can just begin to get a taste of, when the campaign ends. It sounds like Froggy might like Cleric for this.

Or (as mentioned above), just pick the plate-armored fighter you like, and use a full mage in your party for nuking, since the game is oriented towards a balanced party. You don't have to do everything yourself.

Kekvit Irae

11-28-2006, 02:21

The game starts you out at first level, but it gives you enough experience for second level before the tutorial ends. You'll still get the second level if you skip the tutorial, but you miss out on trying for a +1 Cloak of Charisma.

Yun Dog

11-28-2006, 03:09

you could always try monk for a few levels (if your looking for a kensai type dude) - then you could pick up some druid or sorc for your spell casting - then you could do the old shapeshifting monk build that was popular in 1

one of my faves was a bard/fighter/arcane archer - basically a bow user that could sings songs to inspire her party

Keba

11-28-2006, 13:38

Well, I got NWN2 last week ... and, after a lot of hours spent, I managed to finish the game.

I was kind of appaled that the ultimate sword in the game was weaker than a random hammer I picked up in some ruin ... and I found the ending to be a bit ... well, a bit ... unsatisfying.

Does picking the thieves guild when one comes to Neverwinter over the Guard actually affect the rest of the game as much or not? I haven't tried that yet since my character happened to be a LG Aasimar Paladin/Crusader (with levels of Neverwinter Nine added later). Which, while satisfying, made it damned difficult to finish the game, since he had a habit of dying ... a lot, most of the time.

Lemur

11-28-2006, 21:01

frogbeastegg

11-28-2006, 22:20

[Kek on clerics and stuff, with imput from others]
Oh, go on then. I'll give a cleric a go.

To be honest, if you have played through HoTU, you know 99% of what you need to build a good character.
It was two years ago, and I got most of the character build from the internet, including details like which levels I should swap classes.

So you will be glad to hear the romantic interest for males is apparently an elven druid. :laugh4: Maybe you want to rebuild your RDD character as a female this time round?
Noooooooo! Whatever happened to having several potential partners to pick from?

:froggy glowers: Now I have to wander through 40+hours of game staring at some stupid improbably proportioned female in ridiculous metal bikini 'armour'. :froggy glowers more: Gah! I hate that; it's why I always play as a male character.

:idea: Or I skip the romance. Always feels a bit weird romancing a female character anyway. :sigh: But that would mean missing out on what is usually one of the better subplots and bits of characterisation ...

At what point did you give up on it?
Very close to the end. It kept glitching, the story had gone to wacko land, and I decided that I'd stopped enjoying the game around the half way mark and was liking it less with each play session, so I'd cut my losses and stop. A shame - I really liked the beginning, and the early parts of the mid-game. I played the xbox version, which made the bugs and glitches unforgivable – also unfixable. The real killer was the way the plot got butchered: bits missing, bits unfinished, bits crammed in to paper over the cracks the rest had made. The final effect made me feel as if I were reading a book, the first 100 pages of which were bound correctly, and the remaining 300 had been thrown in the air and stuffed in place in random order with every fifth random page chucked in the bin.

Avicenna

11-28-2006, 22:31

Kekvit Irae

11-28-2006, 22:40

econ21

11-28-2006, 23:38

It was two years ago, and I got most of the character build from the internet, including details like which levels I should swap classes.

Ok, fair enough. But your NWN1 manual - which was pretty good, IIRC - and your internet sources should still be pretty relevant to NWN2 unless you really want to get into the minutae (an extra feat here, a new sub-race there). It's one of the things I like about DnD: the basic character building stuff may not be the best system in the world, but it is a reliable and pretty constant one. So if you have DnD experience - as you have in abundance with HoTU - you can plan a character knowing "how the world works". But then I go for rather mundane builds. I find all those dual wielding, great sword bearing, stone-skinned, red-dragoned, multi-classed epic wierdo builds you get from the internet about as interesting as Arnold Schwarzenegger's body. (Although I know some people have the opposite opinion of both.)

Now I have to wander through 40+hours of game staring at some stupid improbably proportioned female in ridiculous metal bikini 'armour'. Gah! I hate that; it's why I always play as a male character.

I knew there was a reason I usually pick a female character. (Bad econ! :sweatdrop: :whip:)

Actually, from the character creation screens, the NWN2 females looked very nicely attired (as did the blokes). Unlike NWN1, I don't recall a bikini, metal or otherwise, among them. I'm not blown away by the graphics so far, but the starter costumes are really rather fetching.

Very close to the end. It kept glitching, the story had gone to wacko land,

Some parts of the KOTOR2 climax were fun to play through - a palace and a ship, IIRC - but you may have done them. Then it really did go to wacko when you land on some weird planet or asteroid or moon thing. But that part was very short and worth enduring for the last conversation with Kreia, which I found really nicely scripted (it had just the perfect dialogue options for what I wanted to say to her.) And seeing - or hearing - what happened to your companions gave me goose bumps, just like hearing the fate of the settlements you travelled through in Fallout 2.

The final effect made me feel as if I were reading a book, the first 100 pages of which were bound correctly, and the remaining 300 had been thrown in the air and stuffed in place in random order with every fifth random page chucked in the bin.

Someone made the point that part of that was deliberate - the influence system meant you only glimpsed part of the backstory to each character; and the non-linearity meant the plot was revealed in a rather jumbled way. I did not mind it - the incompleteness and confusion gave it an illusion of depth and realism, which combined rather nicely with the brooding "shades of grey" feel of the story.

econ21

11-28-2006, 23:53

I need a bit of education... I got NWN1 along with SoU a while ago, but I'm really confused about the difficulty. I think I'm playing on normal, and having a hard time, doing far far worse than my henchman (the huge orc-human in Neverwinter) with lower damage, lower defence and lower HP. I'm two levels higher, as well. Is an archer supposed to be incredibly weak? I got completely destroyed by the first thing I met in Chapter 2 of the SoU expansion.. AFTER cheating all the way to level 20 (:idea2: ) and getting the best possible equipment from chapter 1 and the intermission (?). I think I did 0 damage.

It's been a while, but I remember there were some tough fights in SoU Chapter 2. (One to get the Holy Avenger was particularly gruelling.) You can always lower the difficulty temporarily to get through a tough spot.

But yes, I think archers are pretty weak in 3rd edition DnD[1] - perhaps especially in NWN, where there is no such thing as "long range". You won't compete with a huge orc with a great weapon, as his strength is added to his to hit probability and damage (the latter x1.5). The 0 damage thing sounds like damage resistance of some sort - e.g. an enemy might ignore the first 10 points of damage. If you have an arrow that only does d8 damage and a little extra, you are out of luck.

Perhaps a thief, who can add sneak attack damage to his arrows, might be more viable as an archer, I don't know. (I suspect kek can advise you better).

I played a paladin in SoU and really enjoyed it. They put in a fair amount of paladin-specific content, so I did not feel merely like a nerfed fighter. The difficulty level was just right, playing with Deekin and my son (a druid): challenging, but not frustrating. I actually liked SoU better than HotU.

[1]Unlike Baldur's Gate 1, where my party of 6 composite bows made RTWs Cretan archers look like kids with pop-guns.

frogbeastegg

11-29-2006, 00:17

Romances in D&D computer games have always been biased toward the majority of the market (IE: oversexed teen males). Thus BGII gives you a choice of three women to romance, but only one guy. NWN:HotU gives you three choices for a male PC (the drow and both Arabeths), but only one choice for a female PC. :blankg:
:yes: Another reason why I usually play as a male character. If you can't stand one possible romance you can nearly always try another.

Then too the characters they give female characters to romance are lousy; there's something a wee bit wrong when you'd rather smack your solitary romance choice in the face with a mace while yelling "Stop whining and sobbing about your childhood and grow some balls, damn you!!". If it's not the sobbing whiny-boy it's the one who goes on and on about his lost love/dead wife at every possible opportunity, only to suddenly announce he loves you more, and will you kiss him now, please. :sweatdrop:

But your NWN1 manual - which was pretty good, IIRC - and your internet sources should still be pretty relevant to NWN2 unless you really want to get into the minutae
I repeat again, it was two years ago :winkg:

But then I go for rather mundane builds. I find all those dual wielding, great sword bearing, stone-skinned, red-dragoned, multi-classed epic wierdo builds you get from the internet about as interesting as Arnold Schwarzenegger's body. (Although I know some people have the opposite opinion of both.)
While I agree with you on Arnie (:looks queasy:) I find the mundane characters a bit dull. I like to build a very potent character, one who can breeze through the game comparatively easily without cheating. On the one hand I'm not a frog who likes being killed over and over in games, on the other I find satisfaction in taking my generic start and making it into something superb.

Someone made the point that part of that was deliberate - the influence system meant you only glimpsed part of the backstory to each character; and the non-linearity meant the plot was revealed in a rather jumbled way.
Nah. I found the problem was caused by all those cutscenes and areas they hacked out and didn't paper over properly. I read the transcripts for those missing conversations, and it showed the original plot to be excellent. The thing we got left with was a pale, garbled remnant in comparison. It was like the cut female/darkside ending for KOTOR, but multipled to fill the entire last half of the game. BTW, that cut ending I really liked - I'd have played through as a darkside female just to get that ending.

Actually, come to think of it, the final straw which made me quit the game was seeing the transcripts for some of the scenes I'd have seen in my game, but didn't because they were hacked out. I was already very unhappy with the game, and seeing how great it could have been and how badly it had been mangled, that was it, frog done. The game needed a lot more time in development, period. It was rushed out and it showed.

There's a massive mod dedicated to replacing as much of this missing material as possible. That says it all, IMO. There was no such mod for KOTOR, or for any other RPG I've played.

Kekvit Irae

11-29-2006, 00:37

Perhaps a thief, who can add sneak attack damage to his arrows, might be more viable as an archer, I don't know. (I suspect kek can advise you better).

A Rogue using a bow is a death-dealer.

The same rules for Sneak Attack apply on a bow as well as melee weapons.
1. You need to be hidden, OR
2. You need to have the enemy not target you, OR
3. You need to go first in initiative before the enemy.

So long as you are within 30 feet of an enemy and one of the conditions apply to you, you will get a Sneak Attack. An Assassin with Hide In Plain Sight is a very dangerous thing when dealing with bows and Death Attack.

Yun Dog

11-29-2006, 04:19

Keba

11-29-2006, 09:59

Keba
some of us are yet to get the game let alone complete it.... anymore spoilers and Im going to get very angry

:smash: :yes:

It's not exactly a spoiler, since, well, you get told the choice immediately after coming to the city ... and I didn't say why. Anyway, you get the first offer in Fort Locke anyway, and you can get there two or so hours into the game (if you like to take things nice and slow like me). Though I do apologize.

I am asking since playing Evil characters seems to lack the subtle evil I like so much ... and too many do-gooders around with their annoying little comments and their annoying little mercy thing. Playing an evil assassin or warlock without a meat shield and healer is only so much fun. So, unless it's really worth it, I'm unlikely to get into the whole evil.

I suppose it's just much more fun to play something you morally aren't ...:sweatdrop:

And I would say, overpowered characters might be needed, I had several encounters that I could only win after several attempts with my rather powerful Paladin/Divine Champion/Neverwinter Nine (whom I'd just looove to have in a pen and paper campaign, but I never play Faerun on principle). There were one or two I simply couldn't win even with a party that could get through a dungeon without taking damage or resting, and I was forced to resort to cheating. And that was on easy. I mean, I like the hardcore rules and all, but things get way unbalanced in that case.

@Frogbeastegg:
Actually, the whole romance thing is rather minor, aside from a single Influence check (I think) at a predetermined point in the game, there's nothing else really, so none of those little monolougues where you have to pretend that you care when you really don't.

Reenk Roink

11-29-2006, 15:50

Ok I have several things, one of them is an extreme spoiler (it will be double spoiler tagged).

First, I usually play a human fighter or paladin, but just looking over the manual, it is clear that a cleric is the way to go. Yes, healing is essentially useless, but take a couple of well chosen domains (fire is essential) and you have a guy that arguably has better spells than wizards (fireball & blade barrier), can wear armor, and has a lot of hitpoints. Plus, if you really want to beat up thugs, take the warpriest prestige class.

Second (this may have some slight spoilers, but it is all character related so don't worry), I really hate when they put romance options into these games. I play the game to kill the bad guy for Gods sake! OK, I guess some people get kicks out of this kind of thing (oddly enough). But when the romance thing is forced upon you, that is irritating. First of all, every female character in the game pissed me off to no end. There is the annoying tiefling rogue who gets mad every time I pass on defiling a corpse; the elf druid stalker, who approves of every lawful action I take (odd since she is neutral); the insane pyromaniac sorcerer girl who I loathed more than anyone in the game; and the weird farm woman who gets latched on to me. Two of them I absolutely loathed (it was resolved in the end but that's a major spoiler :wink:), and the other two I didn't pay attention to as they were lemmings. Then out of nowhere, one of them that I never even payed attention to (was barely in my party) just takes me completely unexpectedly to a quiet place on the wall and offers to bed me? :huh:

Third (This is the major spoiler dealing with the final fight! Do not open unless you don't mind or have already beaten the game):

I need help with:

I am almost finished with the game and defeated Black Garius and the traitors Neeshka, Qara, and Bishop. Then comes the fight with the King of Shadows himself. The original one is easy to take down, as I just focus all my attacks on him. When he goes down however, the multiple spawns show up and just waste me. How on earth am I supposed to beat them? Does it have to something with the statues? Please help! Thanks.

Keba

11-29-2006, 16:47

Most party members get annoying at a certain point, but their comments make it well worth it ... that and the way they treat each other. Except Khelgar who, for some reason, seems to give up disliking the tree-hugger and tail-for-brains, a shame really.

A reply to Reenk Roink, concerning the same spoiler, so don't look unless you've finished the game.

In a way, it does ... the swarms you just have to keep killing until all the statues are cleared. That's the really difficult part of the conflict. The swarms will just keep coming, and eventually, one by one, the statues will clear. The statues themselves refill your special powers, but during this time, they don't do that. After you've gotten rid of the pesky little buggers, you'll have to destroy the statues. Oh, and the traitors are determined by influence, in my case, it was Sand, rather than Qara.

Tamur

11-29-2006, 17:27

Now all I want is this massive towering Red Dragon Disciple with a huge flaming battleaxe.

That's easy. Become a DM. ~:)

Avicenna

11-29-2006, 19:59

I don't have HotU. Also, there's the slight problem of my craving of world domination as the, coincidentally, also red

Russkis.

Lemur

11-29-2006, 21:26

A little side-note, relevant to all of the KOTOR discussion ... (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/28/kotor-franchise-to-continue/)

Avicenna

12-07-2006, 22:22

Doesn't sound positive, though... 2 years after the last one was out and there is still only a possibility of making the game. The last 2 games were 1 year apart. Seems like a ploy to get customers to 'stay tuned'.

:thumbsdown:

Slyspy

12-12-2006, 00:45

Question: If I buy NWN2 will it let be create a dwarven character with glowing eyes who beats up nasties with his bare fists. Because I loved that in NWN, despite the fact that he missed out on all the fancy weapons and armour.

Kekvit Irae

12-12-2006, 07:44

You can be a Dwarven Monk, yes. I dont know about the glowing eyes effect, however.

lars573

12-12-2006, 17:11

I do want to try this but there is only one impediment. Can I configure the game for use with a controller, yes or no? I can't stand RPG's with keyboard/mouse. It's the reason I never got past the first module in NWN1.

English assassin

12-13-2006, 14:27

Hey, I'm a freak then, 'cause for some reason I always wind up playing a dwarven weaponmaster. Couldn't begin to say why. There's just something amusing about a bulldog-type character with full plate and a two-handed sword. It soothes my soul

No. my friend, this is not freakishness, this is good taste (though I prefer Dwarven defender myself). Clerics indeed! All that namby pamby please god can I have a spell stuff. Pah.

My only question would be the sword. What, you don't like warhammers? Axes?? Dwarven waraxes? Vorpal dwarven waraxes?

Ahem. Sorry

can you believe I bought the game and then gave it to my wife to give to me for Xmas? :wall: In my defence I had hoped M2TW would be more diverting that it was. But come Dec 26th, Gimli the Giantslayer will rise again. (Not very high, though, obviously)

econ21

12-13-2006, 15:44

can you believe I bought the game and then gave it to my wife to give to me for Xmas?

It's probably not a bad thing to get it when there is less competition - there seem to be an aburd number of interesting games just out right now (M2TW, NWN2, EB0.8, MoC, DoW:DC etc). The competition meant I put NWN2 aside after finding the tutorial appalling (some twee village fair). But recently I found a little more time for it after the 1.03 NWN2 patch (and while waiting for M2TWs patch). I still haven't got far with Chapter 1, but it seems very promising indeed - has that KOTOR kind of feel (a compelling story, decent characters and simple but tactical combat), which is all good, IMO.

My advice: spend a lot of time planning your character (so you don't have to repeat that appalling tutorial too often), make sure you have a stiff drink before playing the tutorial and then push on to Chapter 1 asap[1].

[1]It's kind of like the opening to the Fellowship of the Ring: the sight of Sauron prancing around like a Power Rangers villain at the beginning was just so wrong, I felt the film might be doomed but thankfully it recovered quickly.

English assassin

12-13-2006, 17:14

Sound advice Econ21, but you are missing the main point: I am in my mid thirties and a father of two. What on EARTH am I doing giving my wife things to give back to me for christmas :beam:

Dark Crusade is good, is it?

econ21

12-13-2006, 17:48

What on EARTH am I doing giving my wife things to give back to me for christmas

Well, I did not want to comment on that. Advice from me on wives and gaming would be like nautical tips from the Captain of the Titanic. :captain:

Dark Crusade is good, is it?

Not sure yet - it is even lower down my "to play" list than NWN2. Both my son and I separately tried the SP campaign, getting humiliatingly crushed by the AI in the first mission. I've found out how to slow the campaign down, though, so I will be back. Probably to get humiliatingly crushed by the AI again. Only this time, crushed slowly.

Beefeater

12-14-2006, 16:13

Cheerfully sticking my oar in here - Dark Crusade is splendid. One of the things about hitting your mid-twenties is finding straightforward storytelling far less satisfying as you become more aware of the complexities of real life, and craving shades of grey or at the very least multiple points of view in stories. If you're in the UK I hope you watched 'The State Within', which is excellent for that. The author George R.R. Martin is good at this, although genre fiction isn't going to be challenging Jane Eyre or Wide Sargasso Sea for character development any time soon.

Back on-topic, Dark Crusade is good, not least because it reverses the trend of the past few years for the Warhammer franchise to revert to simple (unsatisfying) storytelling. Admittedly it's still pretty crude storytelling, but it's better than what went before - see Mark of Chaos for stories that just don't cut it.

Sigh..just can't get used to the idea that Space Marines are nice, cuddly knights in shining armour. They should be more like the Mahdi Army in space - cold-eyed fanatics untroubled by sacrificing billions for the sake of ideological purity.

Ditto for the Warhammer Fantasy Empire - the defenders of humanity should be deeply flawed and often quite unpleasant people as a result of the weird stuff they're dealing with. Much more interesting that way. Makes me nostalgic for the old 'Rogue Trader' rules for WH40k. I used to have them as a teen, and didn't appreciate them. Wish I'd kept them now.

Froggie - are those unexpurgated KOTOR2 transcripts available online?

Oh, on the romances point - I've not seen any really good ones yet - too much chainmail-clad bimbos rubbish, and characters with the depth of wet tissue. My guess is that this will change with time. Until very recently role-playing (whether on computer or otherwise) was a hobby for a tiny minority of people some of whom, let's be honest, were a bit odd.

As the market for CRPGs broadens to include people who are more emotionally grown-up , the stories will grow to accomodate that. This is probably already happening - has anyone else read 'Everything bad is good for you'?

Lemur

12-14-2006, 16:35

No. my friend, this is not freakishness, this is good taste (though I prefer Dwarven defender myself). Clerics indeed! All that namby pamby please god can I have a spell stuff. Pah.

My only question would be the sword. What, you don't like warhammers? Axes?? Dwarven waraxes? Vorpal dwarven waraxes?
I know, an axe would be more appropriate, but I love how oversized the 2H sword looks on the dwarf model. It makes me laugh, and that's important.

But you have a good point; perhaps I'll go with a more traditionally dwarven weapon when I re-install the game.

econ21

12-14-2006, 19:57

A little off-topic:

Oh, on the romances point - I've not seen any really good ones yet - too much chainmail-clad bimbos rubbish, and characters with the depth of wet tissue.

I like the Bastilla romance in KOTOR. I thought the dialogue was delightfully written, with the gentle teasing being funny and in-character. There was also a "bat squeak of sexuality", to use a nice phrase from Brideshead Revisited.

OK, enough of the sissy stuff. Back to dwarves and sharp axes.

frogbeastegg

12-15-2006, 13:30

Froggie - are those unexpurgated KOTOR2 transcripts available online?
Somewhere, yes. I read them back when the game was current. IIRC I followed a link from the original KOTORII topic here to wherever they were. I don't have time to hunt for that link again, but I can give youa link to the original org topic (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31737&highlight=kotor2).

Beefeater

12-16-2006, 11:26

Frogbeastegg, thanks muchly.