View Full Version : Somalia... The new Afghanistan?
RabidGibbon
11-02-2006, 03:06
I was watching channel 4 news tonight here in england, and they showed an unoffical video, allegedly produced by "The Union of Islamic Courts" in which a fellow holding a AK-47 and with his face concealed by a scarf announced that Somalia was the new Afghanistan and disaffected muslims should go there for training (He didn't say what they should be trained in).
The Union of Islamic Courts denies the videos authenticity, but the video did show training camps of chaps dressed in typical islamofascist terrorist gear (I know this sounds bigoted, but when you see a fellow wearing a face scarf and carrying a AK-47 you only come to one conclusion).
Anyway, do Orgahs think that the Union of Islamic Courts influence in restoring order to Somalia is a bad thing?
Also, in the north of Somalia is Somaliland, a region that declared its independance from Somalia some while ago, whilst Somalia was in chaos, and whilst not being recognised (because African Union nations dont want to accept that the borders set by colonial powers are wrong headed, to do so would reopen many greviances and cause universal chaos) it has, according to the sources I've read, created a democracy uniquely suited to resolving the problems that Democracy faces in Africa.
What happens if the union of Islamic Courts (Which has introduced to Somalia 'Public Executions by Stabbing') starts trying to reunite Somalia by attacking this (to my mind) rather progressive democracy? Or have I been taken in by its PR machine?
Anyway I know theres a lot of questions in the above post, but I just wanted to start a discussion and gather some Orgah's opinions on the matter.
Cheers.
The neighbours are already getting involved. The official goverment, while ineffectual and weak is better than any islamic state. So, essentially, I think we'll be seeing a war over there, the Union of Islamic Courts against the official goverment of Somalia, Ethiopia and a few others.
I don't think the West will be getting involved, at least not until things get very, very blood and far out of hand.
Actually the UIC was founded by businessmen who wanted things to stabilise a bit... And it's done it.
Now I'm totally committed to secularism, but pretty much anything is better than the total chaos that was there before. Assuming the UIC can reign in the more extreme elements within it and remain fairly relaxed about the religious side of things, it's a good thing.
rory_20_uk
11-02-2006, 11:45
As BDC states, they were set up to allow some law and order, essentially to aid business. This fact is on any decent news website.
But you didn't bother. They're "Islamofacists" - obvious, as they've got guns and scarves. Yes, they're soldiers and use AK-47s. And the desert is bloody hot. I'd wear a scarf if I was there. My last hols to a hot clime meant I got badly burnt. And there's the sand.
The Axis and Allies war similar gear in WW2 in the desert, as did Lawrence of Arabia. The link here is the temperature and heat.
Somaliland may be doing well. The rest is a complete mess. Islamic law is a hell of a lot better than what is there now.
Just don't put your own narrow minded prejudice in the middle of an otherwise decent post.
~:smoking:
Ye si think the UIC is overall a good thing (or at least better than anything else)
As BDC states, they were set up to allow some law and order, essentially to aid business. This fact is on any decent news website.
But you didn't bother. They're "Islamofacists" - obvious, as they've got guns and scarves. Yes, they're soldiers and use AK-47s. And the desert is bloody hot. I'd wear a scarf if I was there. My last hols to a hot clime meant I got badly burnt. And there's the sand.
Unfair. The news did make it look a bit bad, and i certainly dont check news websites for stories i'v seen on the news :2thumbsup:
Watchman
11-02-2006, 14:22
Mikhail Kalashnikov's little contribution to the world is pretty much the standard gun for "tupac armies" worldwide. And why not - it's effective, robust, and both the guns and ammunition are available by the ton for pennies. Heck, we Finns use a knock-off (because it suits the climate, and being able to loot the ammo of your only likely enemy is a good idea).
Scarves are a smart piece of dress in arid, sandy climates. Why do you think the Arabs originally used them (AFAIK both the turban and the veil are somewhat degenerate descendants of perfectly functional articles of clotching worn there around the Prophet's time), and desert-dwelling folk like the Bedouin and Tuaregs still do ?
As for the UIC, far as I know they've told the al-Qaeda to take a hike. The damn last thing they want is the Americans wanting to get involved. Anyway, odds are they're an improvement over the assorted warlords who've been de facto running the country for the past decade or more although I won't vouch for them being a better choice than a proper democrtatic regime. Alas, one of those (that wasn't uncomfortably beholden to the warlords, anyway) could be a little difficult to come by in the circumstances.
yesdachi
11-02-2006, 15:02
...announced that Somalia was the new Afghanistan and disaffected muslims should go there for training (He didn't say what they should be trained in).
This seems like an indication that Afghanistan is not a popular destination any more for terrorists. Perhaps it shows that the war there is working to discourage the migration of terrorists to a previously appealing area. Sucks to be Somalia, they are like the one house on the block that hasn’t been treated for roaches.
Banquo's Ghost
11-02-2006, 15:12
This seems like an indication that Afghanistan is not a popular destination any more for terrorists. Perhaps it shows that the war there is working to discourage the migration of terrorists to a previously appealing area. Sucks to be Somalia, they are like the one house on the block that hasn’t been treated for roaches.
No, Afghanistan isn't what it was. All the self-respecting terrorist leaders have moved out of those caves (now to become a tourist resor (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041205/asp/frontpage/story_4089270.asp)t as part of the country's "rebuilding") into air-conditioned villas in Pakistan under the Waziristan accord.
Those that like hardship and self-immolation for real (instead of just encouraging other simpletons) are partying in Iraq.
The Taleban still like it though. :shrug:
I can't really see Somalia becoming a terrorist hide out. The entire population is heavily armed, used to combat, and likes their music and drugs. Whilst the UIC isn't pushing the religious side too much things are fine, I imagine if a Taleban-style organisation took over things would get messy again. Plus after Iraq and Afghanistan no one is going to be stupid enough to let terrorists sit around nearby. Who really wants to be bombed and invaded really?
yesdachi
11-02-2006, 16:48
Who really wants to be bombed and invaded really?
Me Me I do I do... wait a sec... You mean something different than what I was thinking by "bombed and invaded". ~D
Me Me I do I do... wait a sec... You mean something different than what I was thinking by "bombed and invaded". ~D
I dunno, these strange extreme religious types and their odd sexual views...
Watchman
11-03-2006, 00:20
"How much is a 'buttload'?"
- True Meaning Of Life supplicant
"More than you might know."
- The Giver, TMOL guru
RabidGibbon
11-04-2006, 01:34
To address the criticism of my original post, I apologise for the overly histrionic language I used. I was attempting to describe a video that I was acutely aware that I couldn’t show an example of. In my attempt to convey the impression I got from that video I obviously revealed my “narrow minded prejudices”. The point I was trying to make was not that the speaker was wearing a head scarf and wielding an AK-47, but rather that he said “Somalia is the new Afghanistan - All disaffected Muslims should come here for training.” Although admittedly I don’t speak Arabic and am relying on C4’s interpretation - he could have been saying “I an David Hasslehoff’s biggest fan, were can I buy a chest wig?”
What I’m trying to say here, to answer Rory_20_uk’s criticism’s is not that I condemn the UIC for wearing headscarves and carrying AK - 47’s, or for restoring order to Somalia - I’m asking at what price does order come. I know I’m asking this from an ivory tower, but is Somalia not preparing a big store of future trouble in for itself, particularly considering its leader have just announced a jihad against Ethiopa? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6032907.stm
I cant imagine those business leaders who funded the UIC are too happy about that.
macsen rufus
11-04-2006, 14:58
What gives? According to the BBC piece Somalia has had no central govt for 15 years, yet the UIC are fighting the government and the Ethiopians :inquisitive:
No fighting has been reported in either takeover - each side withdrew in the face of the other's advance.
Sounds a lot like "The rebels have decided they can't win the battle and are retreating" Now, where have I heard that before? :laugh4:
Tribesman
11-04-2006, 15:41
What gives? According to the BBC piece Somalia has had no central govt for 15 years, yet the UIC are fighting the government and the Ethiopians
Complicated isn't it :yes:
Basically , no government , lots of warlords , complete anarchy(not in the anarchic sense) , a bit of a bugger soooo...along comes intervention .
The intervention tries to not align with any of the many warlords , so ends up fighting most of them and getting into a right mess (even managing to attack the UN compound since well .... its a compound they have guns and vehicles so they must be warlords right~:doh: )
Then comes talks to try and find which warlords can be bought off to play ball , so that gives the formation of some compliant warlords into what becomes a provisional government .
Trouble is the provisional government does not have sufficient local backing , and carries on as before robbing and killing , but now with foriegn financing , training and arms . Which further diminishes its small local support .
Then along comes a grouping of other warlords whose main unifying factor seems to be their opposition to the provisional government and the foriegn backers .
The results remain to be seen . Will the courts retain their local support , will they split , will they eventually work with the provisional government or would that also cause a split ?
Will the local groups and the various regional backers end up in a more widespread conflict or will they just use Somalia as a proxy boxing ring .
Its not quite a complicated as Sudan , but more complex than Afghanistan or Iraq:shrug:
Banquo's Ghost
11-04-2006, 17:07
Sounds a lot like "The rebels have decided they can't win the battle and are retreating" Now, where have I heard that before? :laugh4:
Don Rumsfeld's exit strategy for Iraq, IIRC. :wink3:
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