AI Diplomatic tricks

[bedlam28]

Hi, I just had a frustrating situation, and would like to know if its just the game dynamic or if I have a ‘please kick me’ sign on my back.

Playing as the Egyptians, I had slowly built up my army stacks, so that I had 1 per city to attack and besiege the Armenians.
I was Allied with the Sythians in the North, Macadonia in the West and Carthage in the South so my borders were all currently safe.

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/RomeTW 2006-11-08 12-48-41-87.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=RomeTW 2006-11-08 12-48-41-87.jpg)

I moved my armies in place and besieged all of the Armenians cities at once. Supposedly crippling their economy ready for my attack.
However, about 2 turns in, when all my equipment was made and I was ready to attack I suddenly had a ceasefire from Armenia forced upon me.
Lost all that time, and effort. It took me some time, but found that it was because they had Allied with Sythia.

:help: Question: How comes I can NEVER get a neutral country to ally with me if I am At War with one of their Allies.

Ok so ceasefire; I move most of my armies South after my diplomat finds that the Scipii’s have taken Carthage / Thapsus / Lepcis Magna and are heading towards Cyrene, which is Egyptian soil !

And of course, Armenia decides to besiege ME ! cheeky beggers ! But, now we're at War again, but now I am no longer Allied with Sythia because ‘ I have broken the alliance’ and yet Armenia and Sythia are still buddies.

:help: Question: How can Armenia attack a mutual ally of Sythia and yet I as the innocent party get told off ?!? whilst they continue as Allies.

Now I cant Ally with Sythia because ‘It is not in our best interest’.

If someone knows how to manipulate the Diplomacy on this I would appreciate the advice.

Thanks all.

[avatar]

Tamur's Diplomacy Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36993) may have the answer you are looking for. Personally I get trade rights with every faction I can, and ally with few to none. Never trust an alliance with a neighboring faction.

[Quillan]

Some of it is by design, and some of it is either a game bug with the post BI patches or the "I'm the player. Kick me." sign. Prior to BI (or patch 1.3), you COULD ally with an ally of your enemy, and it would end the war instantly. However, whoever attacked would be kicked out of the alliance subsequently. Since then, using your situation as the example, Armenia wouldn't be able to ally with Scythia. However, that doesn't seem to work both ways. Scythia could offer the alliance to Armenia, which would end the war if accepted. The problem is the "broken alliance" isn't working like it used to, and I can't help but think it's broken. Now, instead of the party who attacks being kicked out of the alliance, it always seems to be the human player.

To use an example from my own experience, I was at war with the Seleucid empire. The Seleucids were allies with Scythia. My diplomat, talking with Scythia, didn't have the Alliance option even show up on the diplomacy screen. However, a few turns later, I was contacted by a Scythian diplomat who offered an alliance. I accepted and the war ended. When the Seleucids attacked again, I was out of the Seleucid-Scythia alliance.

[bedlam28]

Thanks Avatar for the link, I checked it out but it didn't help too much; probably as its a big begger to read through. I will have to pick it up again
:book: :dizzy2:

Quillan, its good to know its not just me, and I think its more frustrating because the human player cant manipulate the Diplomacy the same way as the AI does. but hey I'm just kicking Armenia's butt anyway :laugh4:

Any way that people know to get round this would be a great help...

[Ower]

In me experience it´s always the fraction that is attacked which is kicked out of the alliance. (when I noticed, i started to use it, to keep useful alliances, from faling apart. :sneaky:
I have 1.5.

[Claudius the God]

I read a while ago that to encourage a healthy relationship, use diplomats to contact allied factions - even if you have no reason to ask or give anything... the simple act of saying 'hello' to your allies keeps the relationship healthy and makes it more unlikely that they will break the alliance...

this is why you sometimes see foreign diplomats saying 'hello' with their diplomats but not asking or requesting anything from you...

[Ciaran]

Still, I second Quillian, if you go to war with someone, and your ally is allied with that faction as well, it´ll be you who loses his alliance (not that I ever got what alliances are good for, except, perhaps, to trigger a war by scripted backstabbing - I had once a game as Egypt where I deliberately didn´t ally with any neighbouring faction. After some time, the Numidians came around, pleading for an alliance, offering cash and whatnot. I took the deal, and the very next turn they attacked. That led me to the belief that some backstabbing at least is hardcoded).
In MTW the rules were simple: the one who lost the first engagement lost his allies (not all, of course, only those who had to choose sides), which led to the infamous "Naval Incident" tactic used by the AI to break up alliances. Maybe this rule existed in earlier RTW versions (I´m not entirely sure about 1.2), but since 1.3 it´s definitely gone.

[Kralizec]

if you go to war with someone, and your ally is allied with that faction as well, it´ll be you who loses his alliance

Maybe that's often the case, but not always.

In a campaign with Pontus in RTR Platinum (based on RTW 1.5) I had been at war with the Seleucids since 2 turns after the start of the game. They were allied with the Armenians. When I sent a diplomat towards the Armenians I found that I was still able to propose an alliance despite this.
They accepted, and I promptly got a ceasefire with the Seleucids.

Hostilities resumed shortly afterwards, but I forgot wich side started it (might have been myself)
Regardless, the Armenians supported me.

[Mooks]

Told simply ; the RTW diplomacy system is really really sad. It has huge flaws in it, and isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Blame CA, not your fault.

[bedlam28]

Thanks guys, especially to Holy Bandit for the "not your fault" bit.

I really have learnt to dispise the Diplomacy. I have never betrayed an Ally and only attacked once I have been betrayed, and then I kill them hard and brutally to send a message.
But I always seem to get that I'm untrustworthy or not in their best interests.

AI however, betrays without consequence it seems.
After the Scipii's attempted to attack my Southern borders (I'm :egypt: ), I have been in a brutal battle, year after year with them and have currently beaten them out of africa and taken Carhage and Thapsus. I have been Allied with Numidia for years and years, helping them against the Carthagians and generally being a good neighbour.
Of course they have repaid my kindness, support and loyalty by attacking Lepsis Magna whilst I fought over Carthage. So now I have a war with them and whilst they have no hope of winning they refuse to have peace! :furious3:

Hmm, not looking for advise any more I think; merely Venting.... ho hum.
Feel free to add advice if I'm missing anything :egypt:

[Caius]

Told simply ; the RTW diplomacy system is really really sad. It has huge flaws in it, and isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Blame CA, not your fault.
Yes, you become a protectorate and you cancel the alliance, it is useless

[SSJVegetaTrunks]

this is why you sometimes see foreign diplomats saying 'hello' with their diplomats but not asking or requesting anything from you...

I always thought that meant they were trying to bribe my cities. I guess I was wrong.

[jhhowell]

I always thought that meant they were trying to bribe my cities. I guess I was wrong.

No, you were right. Example: if a WRE player keeps the Duke of Britain (forgot his name...) in Eburacum, his loyalty will quickly improve because the Celtic diplomat will try to bribe him and the city every turn. Perhaps even more important is the law bonus some of those loyalty traits carry with them. ~:)

[Caius]

Why they can try to bribe you when you are sieged and you cant negotiate with settlements sieged?
A RTW bug?

[jhhowell]

Why they can try to bribe you when you are sieged and you cant negotiate with settlements sieged?
A RTW bug?

More likely an AI cheat "feature". Not sure I've seen that one myself.

Here's a question: am I crazy to think that a faction reduced to a single small city, the faction leader, and a light cavalry unit should agree to peace with the #1 military power in the world who just smashed 12 units and two faction members? Particularly when said superpower offers the defeated faction their starting capital back as part of the deal? Heck, by my reckoning they should become a protectorate and like it, but I'd settle for a ceasefire and trade rights.

Likewise one would think the WRER and their single province peasant army would accept peace with the WRE, but no... ~:angry: What does the Empire have to do to get a buffer state in Germany, anyway?! ~;p

[Ower]

I think it's because they have an ally, i never been abble to get a protectorate from someone who has an ally.

[rich19]

I've had some big problems. While playing as egypt, pontus only attacked one of my cities on the same turn as I accepted a ceasefire they wanted! I eventually tried refusing the ceasefire and proposing one myself a bit later, which solved it for a bit (they declared war soon after, though).

[Fate]

I found a great way to make money whilst playing on my last campaign on RTG.
I was the Ilberians, and id been kicking ass, working my way towards taking carthage fromt he scippii, and fighting the jullii in southern gaul, but the senate and the brutii had no beef with me, so every turn i called for a ceasefire in exchange for 5000D a piece off them, after a while, that free ten grand a year begins to add up....

[jhhowell]

I found a solution to the problem of converting a defeated enemy into a buffer state! :2thumbsup: As might be expected, the solution has nothing to do with diplomacy - as far as I'm concerned RTW doesn't have a diplomacy system, just a diplomacy gui. Seriously, if one can't negotiate peace treaties, there's no diplomacy in the game... Those "diplomats" should be called "trade attaches" or something.

Anyway, the trick is to attack the defeated enemy's last city, but fight only long enough to kill off all their faction members. Then retreat, and there's a fresh rebel province covering your border. The down sides are that you're technically "defeated" and thus don't get to recover your wounded (i.e. none of the kills you suffer come back at the end of the battle), you can't trade with your border buffer province(s), and more distant potential enemies can just walk over and attack without worrying about declaring war or fighting an actual faction with normal faction members. But it's the only way to get the desired buffer state...

Also note that this is a perfect way to eliminate horde-capable factions. The test case I've been so frustrated with was the Franks. I imagine Saxon, Burgundian, and Lombard players would find this info very useful (if they don't already know). As would imperial players like myself who want to make barbarian neighbors go away but don't want to take their land.

Ower: alliances were not the problem. They basically don't exist in BI. The starting WRE-ERE alliance is broken by the AI within the first ten turns, and the very common ERE-Goth alliance has never amounted to anything in any of my games.