A wuxia question for Orda and other Mongol freaks

[Pannonian]

I've been reading the wuxiapedia translation of Eagle Shooting Heroes (http://wuxiapedia.com/wulin/novels/jin_yong/eagle_shooting_hero/book_1), and I'm fascinated by the accounts of Mongolian life, specifically chapters 3-6 when Guo Jing is growing up. Not being an expert in that area as Orda and some other posters here are, I'm wondering how much of the descriptions of Mongolian lifestyle, structure, battle plans, etc. are based on actual history. I know it's just wuxia and hence pulp fiction, but the details seem to fit with what little I know about the Mongols, such the denary-based organisation of the armies, tactics of surrounding the enemy with horse archers before charging them with spears and so on.

[King of Atlantis]

Well I dont have the time to read all of the chapters so its hard to comment if their information is correct, however I can tell you the things I do know.

Military Organization:
It was decimal. You had groups of ten, which formed groups of one hundred, which formed groups of one thousand, which formed groups of ten thousand(tumen). This gave the mongols unprecendented control over their armies compared contemperaries. The mongols werent the inventors of this technique though, it was an old age tradition in the Asian Steppes.

As for actual combat every mongol would carry a bow. To tradition Mongol religion the blood held the soul, so to get another's blood on you was very frowned upon. As such, in opposite of most cultures, shooting the bow was the honorable way to kill. Obviously, Mongols would have to carry short ranged weapons, and some even specialized in it(Mongolian Heavy Lancers), but a fast majority of the army used the bow as a primary weapon, and were mounted as well. Foot soldiers were almost non-existant, atleast in initially.

Surronding the enemy as you desribed would be one tactic. It was based off the tartar hunt, where the mongols would strech out for miles moving toward the center. This would mean all animals in the area would be trapped by the enclosing army and easily killed. This tactic was converted to warfare, altough the Mongols had to outnumber their foe, as such a tactic would invariably force the army to split out and without the numbers it would be impossible. Fortunatly though, in later years the Mongols would often outnumber their opponent so this tactic could be employed.

As for culture, you belonged to the tribe and the tribe served very much as an extended family. Men could have several wives, but women had considerable rights for the time period. All mongolian families lived in small huts called yurts, which were easy to build and easy to take down. They often owned very little possesions because they were nomadic and had to be able to carry what they owned across vast distances. Their primary animal was the horse as it could live off much less than the cow, and its milk(and blood) could be used for consumption.

Well, thats the general stuff, if you have any specific questions I'll try to answer, but I may have to differ to Orda or someone else with more knowledge on the subject than myself.

[Samurai Waki]

I should add that the mongols adapted their hunting style to warfare even further than KoA explained. The Mongol Armies faced many enemies with superior Armies, the difference is, is that the Mongolians would send scout forces ahead to probe an enemy's defenses, gather information on it's strength, and overall how to best destroy the force before the main Army ever made contact. Whereas other nations of the time would send in the Army, and at the field of battle would determine how to destroy the enemy, without any prior knowledge to an enemy's strength. The Mongolian's were ahead of their time, and had Orda not died, it's probable that the Mongols could've swept through most of Europe, instead after his death, there was little Organization due to the Empire's vast area of control, which gave surrounding nations time to adapt, and ultimately subjugate the former Empire's lands.

[Avicenna]

Good boy, Jin Yong is great!

Basically, it's half-half. Half fiction, half historical. At least, that's what people tell me. Something like that. He mixes up fictional characters with history, so it's more interesting as you can relate to it. For example, the Kangxi emperor has some kind of buddy Wei Xiaobao which is fictional, and Guo Jing is buddies with Tolui as you can see.

The historical details should be real. He writes history books as well.

[Orda Khan]

I read enough to confirm that characters and events are confused. For example, the section where Jebe supposedly inflicted a severe wound to Temujin...

(Note. It was Temujin who bestowed the name 'Jebe' uponTodoge after an incident during a campaign against the Tayichi'ud where he had mortally wounded Temujin's horse. The neck wound was suffered during the early stages of the Jin campaign.)

I would guess that there should be at least some accuracy.

Mongol tactics were cemented under Chingis Khan and the great hunt was one way to hone discipline rather than actual tactics per se. The animals were coralled and nothing was allowed (apparently) to escape; only on command would any killing begin.
Mongol intelligence was very developed for the time and so was the military command. Offices were appointed on merit rather than position and though each individual was responsible for his fellows he was answerable to one commander.

It was the efficiency and discipline of orders issued and received that enabled the Mongol armies to defeat stronger opponents. Their ability to melt away and appear elsewhere often gave the impression that they were vastly greater in numbers than they actually were. This was seldom the case and throughout their campaigns they were generally, considerably outnumbered. Xi Xia, Jin, Song, Khwarazm, Russian states and Europe they outclassed greater odds. They were very quick to learn and were not so arrogant as to ignore benefits that were not Mongolian.


and had Orda not died
Typo....that should read 'Ogodei'

.......Orda

[Pannonian]

I read enough to confirm that characters and events are confused. For example, the section where Jebe supposedly inflicted a severe wound to Temujin...

(Note. It was Temujin who bestowed the name 'Jebe' uponTodoge after an incident during a campaign against the Tayichi'ud where he had mortally wounded Temujin's horse. The neck wound was suffered during the early stages of the Jin campaign.)

I would guess that there should be at least some accuracy.

As it's a novel, the events are presumed to be inaccurate anyway. What I was wondering was how accurate the descriptions of Mongolian life was. The little I know about the Mongols from reading your posts here and other material seemed to fit what Jin Yong wrote about Guo Jing's experiences in the steppes, which made me wonder how much research he did for the novel.

[King of Atlantis]

determine how to destroy the enemy, without any prior knowledge to an enemy's strength. The Mongolian's were ahead of their time, and had Orda not died, it's probable that the Mongols could've swept through most of Europe, instead after his death, there was little Organization due to the Empire's vast area of control, which gave surrounding nations time to adapt, and ultimately subjugate the former Empire's lands.

I disagree. I have doubts how effective mongolian tactics would be in the heart of Europe without any steppe to pasture their horses.

[IrishArmenian]

About the tribes, it was much more about family. Removed families were less respected than the close family. However, Temujin felt this was stupid and biased. He called his allies brothers and his favor lay with those who were loyal to him, not necesarily his family.

[Avicenna]

His kids did end up inheriting though. He gave them high ranks and prestige so they would be loyal. In the end, who ended up ruling the Mongol hordes? The descendants of Genghis, of course.

[Orda Khan]

I disagree. I have doubts how effective mongolian tactics would be in the heart of Europe without any steppe to pasture their horses.
Well there are many opinions on this subject and I for one will not be going over this again. Suffice to say there is ample evidence to suggest they would be equally successful as they were in the steppe-less regions of the Song.

A fictional tale from an historical era should contain an element of accuracy through research but to verify this would require reading the whole thing

.....Orda

[IrishArmenian]

His kids did end up inheriting though. He gave them high ranks and prestige so they would be loyal. In the end, who ended up ruling the Mongol hordes? The descendants of Genghis, of course.
Yes, but all loyal allies (uncles, cousins, brothers, or unrelated ones) were treated the same. He was still very progressive in this sense.

[Conradus]

I disagree. I have doubts how effective mongolian tactics would be in the heart of Europe without any steppe to pasture their horses.

Europe wasn't all forest, so Mongolian armies could've succeeded. After all, Atilla almost conquered the WRE in the fifth century.

[Samurai Waki]

Well we can never really know whether or not the Mongols could've succeeded in Western Europe, because it never happened. The Speculation is, is that the mongols would've been successful where they have always been successful, flat, open, or otherwise sparsely vegitated terrain. the Entire Continent of Europe in comparative size was only a small fraction compared to the Khanate. So we know that administration could've been taken care of easily. I believe the Mongols could have been successful in Western Europe, the problem is, is that Europeans have historically always been a tenuous bunch, and dirty too... Between the irrepressible filth that clogged Western Cities, and perhaps the lack of willingness to obey a bunch of dog faced horse men (this coming from a Medieval European Perspective of Course), might have made the Mongols think twice about staying for too long. Europe could have very well been the Mongol's version of Vietnam, they could win every battle, burn cities to the ground, but their men would keep dying from wretched diseases, and bands of Geurilla esque soldiers, which the Europeans were not above doing if the situation called for it. Its possible that Western Europe would be regarded with a certain amount of disdain by the Mongols, chances are the Mongols would've swept in, stayed for a couple of decades, and then decide to give limited autonomy to certain regions, as soon as the autonomy was granted it would've been back to the old ways as quick as a snap of the fingers, and then the Horde would have to ride in again...and again...rinse and repeat.

[King of Atlantis]

Well there are many opinions on this subject and I for one will not be going over this again. Suffice to say there is ample evidence to suggest they would be equally successful as they were in the steppe-less regions of the Song.

A fictional tale from an historical era should contain an element of accuracy through research but to verify this would require reading the whole thing

.....Orda

I see your point, but I just can't believe the Mongols would have had success in Spain for example. Sure if the Spainards(by that I mean a united Catholic Iberian front, the prospect of a Mongolian conquest would band the people together. If not then I assumeCastile would be the one putting up the field army.) put up an army against the Mongols they would very liekly be crushed, however as pointed out by other users, the Spanish could make occupation hell for the Mongols. That is not to say such a conquest would be impossible, I simply feel it would just be unlikely.

[Pannonian]

I see your point, but I just can't believe the Mongols would have had success in Spain for example. Sure if the Spainards(by that I mean a united Catholic Iberian front, the prospect of a Mongolian conquest would band the people together. If not then I assumeCastile would be the one putting up the field army.) put up an army against the Mongols they would very liekly be crushed, however as pointed out by other users, the Spanish could make occupation hell for the Mongols. That is not to say such a conquest would be impossible, I simply feel it would just be unlikely.
If the Spanish or anyone else made life hell for the occupying Mongols, why wouldn't the latter simply massacre the populations or a proportion of?

[Kralizec]

"If only Ogedai hadn't died" (sic)

I just can't imagine that even if Ogedai hadn't drank himself to death, the Mongols would stay unified for decades longer so that they'd have their hands free to conquer Europe. But that's just my uninformed guess.

[King of Atlantis]

If the Spanish or anyone else made life hell for the occupying Mongols, why wouldn't the latter simply massacre the populations or a proportion of?

Because you can massacre cities, but its kinda hard to do so to rebel forces.