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View Full Version : Gender is now Personal Choice



Sasaki Kojiro
11-09-2006, 04:52
In NYC (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/nyregion/07gender.html) anyway :2thumbsup:

Separating anatomy from what it means to be a man or a woman, New York City is moving forward with a plan to let people alter the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not had sex-change surgery.

Under the rule being considered by the city’s Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

Applicants would have to have changed their name and shown that they had lived in their adopted gender for at least two years, but there would be no explicit medical requirements.

“Surgery versus nonsurgery can be arbitrary,” said Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, the city’s health commissioner. “Somebody with a beard may have had breast-implant surgery. It’s the permanence of the transition that matters most.”

If approved, the new rule would put New York at the forefront of efforts to redefine gender. A handful of states do not require surgery for such birth certificate changes, but in some of those cases patients are still not allowed to make the change without showing a physiological shift to the opposite gender.

In New York, the proposed change comes after four years of discussion among health officials, an eight-member panel of transgender experts and vital records offices nationwide. It is an outgrowth of the transgender community’s push to recognize that some people may not have money to get a sex-change operation, while others may not feel the need to undergo the procedure and are simply defining themselves as members of the opposite sex. While it may be a radical notion elsewhere, New York City has often tolerated such blurring of the lines of gender identity.

And the proposal reflects how the transgender movement has become politically potent beyond its small numbers, having roots in the muscular politics of the city’s gay rights movement.

Transgender advocates consider the New York proposal an overdue bulwark against discrimination that recognizes an emerging shift away from viewing gender as simply the sum of one’s physical parts. But some psychiatrists and doctors are skeptical of the move, saying sexual self-definition should stop at rewriting medical history.

“They should not change the sex at birth, which is a factual record,” said Dr. Arthur Zitrin, a Midtown psychiatrist who was on the panel of transgender experts convened by the city. “If they wanted to change the gender for all the compelling reasons that they’ve given, it should be done perhaps with an asterisk.”

The change would lead to many intriguing questions: For example, would a man who becomes a woman be able to marry another man? (Probably.) Would an adoption agency be able to uncover the original sex of a proposed parent? (Not without a court order.) Would a woman who becomes a man be able to fight in combat, or play in the National Football League? (These areas have yet to be explored.)

The Board of Health, which weighs recommendations drafted by the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, is scheduled to vote on the proposal in December, and officials say they expect it to be adopted.

At the final public hearing for the birth certificate proposal last week, a string of advocates and transsexuals suggested that common definitions of gender, especially its reliance on medical assessments, should be abandoned. They generally praised the city for revisiting its 25-year-old policy that lets people remove the sex designation from their birth certificate if they have had sexual reassignment surgery. Then they demanded more freedom to choose.

Michael Silverman, executive director of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, said transgender people should not have to rely on affidavits from a health care system that tends to be biased against them. He said that many transgender people cannot afford sex-change surgery or therapy, and often do not consider it necessary.

Another person who testified, Mariah Lopez, 21, said she wanted a new birth certificate to prevent confusion, and to keep teachers, police officers and other authority figures from embarrassing her in public or accusing her of identity theft.

A few weeks ago, at a welfare office in Queens, Ms. Lopez said she included a note with her application for public assistance asking that she be referred to as Ms. when her turn for an interview came up. It did not work. The woman handling her case repeatedly addressed her as Mister.

“The thing is, I don’t even remember what it’s like to be a boy,” Ms. Lopez said, adding that she received a diagnosis of transgender identity disorder at age 6. She asked to be identified as a woman for this article.

The eight experts who addressed the birth certificate issue strongly recommended that the change be made, for the practical reasons Ms. Lopez identified. For public health studies, people who have changed their gender would be counted according to their sex at birth.

But some psychiatrists said that eliminating identification difficulties for some transgender people also opened the door to unwelcome advances from imposters.

“I’ve already heard of a ‘transgendered’ man who claimed at work to be ‘a woman in a man’s body but a lesbian’ and who had to be expelled from the ladies’ restroom because he was propositioning women there,” Dr. Paul McHugh, a member of the President’s Council of Bioethics and chairman of the psychiatry department at Johns Hopkins University, wrote in an e-mail message on the subject. “He saw this as a great injustice in that his behavior was justified in his mind by the idea that the categories he claimed for himself were all ‘official’ and had legal rights attached to them.”

The move to ease the requirements for altering one’s gender identity comes after New York has adopted other measures aimed at blurring the lines of gender identification. For instance, a new shelter policy approved in January now allows beds to be distributed according to appearance, applying equally to postoperative transsexuals, cross-dressers and “persons perceived to be androgynous.”

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority also agreed last month to let people define their own gender when deciding whether to use the men’s or women’s bathrooms.

Joann Prinzivalli, 52, a lawyer for the New York Transgender Rights Organization, a man who has lived as a woman since 2000, without surgery, said the changes amount to progress, a move away from American culture’s misguided fixation on genitals as the basis for one’s gender identity.

“It’s based on an arbitrary distinction that says there are two and only two sexes,” she said. “In reality the diversity of nature is such that there are more than just two, and people who seem to belong to one of the designated sexes may really belong to the other.”

What do you think?

Don Corleone
11-09-2006, 04:57
I refuse to vote in this poll, as it has no Gah option.

lars573
11-09-2006, 05:05
Yes. But ultimately I don't give two poos. Not my genitals. not my problem.

Proletariat
11-09-2006, 05:37
Could it be your twelve year old daughter in the lady's room and someone else's 35 year old genitals using an adjacent and newly installed urinal?

Ice
11-09-2006, 06:02
No, plain and simple. You are who you are.

Kanamori
11-09-2006, 06:16
Do they mean gender or sex? Gender is technically the base 'normative' personality characteristics of sex. Why would anyone ask what you considered you gender anyway? Or is it just a euphimism because we're too pansy to say sex? Anyway, I think that they keep the information piled up somewhere, so it ought to have record of change.

IRONxMortlock
11-09-2006, 07:08
Do they mean gender or sex? Gender is technically the base 'normative' personality characteristics of sex. Why would anyone ask what you considered you gender anyway? Or is it just a euphimism because we're too pansy to say sex? Anyway, I think that they keep the information piled up somewhere, so it ought to have record of change.

From what I remember of one my my freshman undergraduate classes, Gender, Sexuality and Culture, I believe sex is considered a physical distinction while gender is culturally determined and thus open to interpretation.

Samurai Waki
11-09-2006, 07:26
Well you might be a female or male at heart, but if you've got the dangly bits or lack thereof, you belong in your respective Lavoratory.

vizigothe
11-09-2006, 07:32
Hey with modern technology and psychology and all that fun stuff. Why not. I don't really care.

lars573
11-09-2006, 07:38
Well you might be a female or male at heart, but if you've got the dangly bits or lack thereof, you belong in your respective Lavoratory.
In this situation the dangly bits/lack of aren't the issue. How you see yourself, how you act, and how you present yourself to the world is. Forcing them to keep relics from the gender they left behind is not really fair. Making a MTF (male to female) transexual use a mans washroom is a recipe for a beat down. That not cool.

Samurai Waki
11-09-2006, 07:43
then perhaps we should include sex changes as coverable by insurance?

I'm just trying to meet the issue halfway. Not that I have a problem with a guy who thinks he's a chick, or vice versa, it would be kind of a mistake though for... well as Prol stated for a 12 year old girl to walk in on a 37 year old guy in a woman's bathroom, or a 6 year old boy to walk in on "Butch" the Bull Dyke.

Prince of the Poodles
11-09-2006, 09:02
I'm just trying to meet the issue halfway. Not that I have a problem with a guy who thinks he's a chick, or vice versa, it would be kind of a mistake though for... well as Prol stated for a 12 year old girl to walk in on a 37 year old guy in a woman's bathroom, or a 6 year old boy to walk in on "Butch" the Bull Dyke.

Thats why there are stalls. :shrug:

Samurai Waki
11-09-2006, 09:05
Thats why there are stalls. :shrug:

Been to a Public Restroom Lately? For Some Reason a lot of people don't really care whether theres a door there or not *shudders* ...the Horror...the Hoooorrrroooorrrrrr

Prince of the Poodles
11-09-2006, 09:09
Ugh.. point taken. :no:

ajaxfetish
11-09-2006, 09:14
As far as a person's official sex, and such things as birth certificate records, I personally think it should be decided by their combination of chromosomes.

When it comes down to gender identification, or some of the more ambiguous rare chromosome situations (yxx, etc), I've got not firm opinion as yet.

Ajax

Crazed Rabbit
11-09-2006, 09:39
This is stupid for two reasons; it leaves a medical fact up to the feelings of the person, and it erases their history. Getting a gender change is one thing, changing the records to make it look as though you were born that gender is logically wrong.

CR

Ronin
11-09-2006, 10:24
come on people...this should be easy....

a man has XY cromossomes.....a woman has XX....(more complicated cases to be discussed later) and nothing you chop off/add will change this.

well...I guess they can do whatever they want and it doesn´t affect me....but some people are just nutty.:dizzy2:

Andres
11-09-2006, 11:39
I voted "NO".

Gender/sex is determined by combination of chromosomes. Period.

Don't they have other problems to deal with in NYC? :juggle:

doc_bean
11-09-2006, 11:54
a man has XY cromossomes.....a woman has XX....

Not always.

Ronin
11-09-2006, 12:16
Not always.

if you read my entire post you´d see I aknowledged that there are more "complicated" situations....but these are hardly the norm.

doc_bean
11-09-2006, 13:33
if you read my entire post you´d see I aknowledged that there are more "complicated" situations....but these are hardly the norm.

Even if these 'complicated' situations only affect 0.1% percent of the population, that would still be about 10 000 people in NYC. Just because something rarely happens (statistically) doesn't mean it doesn't affect a large amount of people.

Big King Sanctaphrax
11-09-2006, 14:29
Regardless of which sex a person considers themselves, shouldn't your birth certificate be a record of the sex you were when you were born?

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-09-2006, 14:38
No, plain and simple. You are who you are.


Very True. You are who you are, oh well. :whip:

Vladimir
11-09-2006, 14:56
Oy, I can just imagine the look on doctor's faces when their female patient has prostate cancer or his male patient needs a hysterectomy. What a circus. :clown: Although I do suspect that the former will want to receive a colonoscopy MUCH more often.

drone
11-09-2006, 16:48
:gah2: Next thing you know we will have 3 different restrooms, Men, Women, and Whatever.

Andres
11-09-2006, 16:50
:gah2: Next thing you know we will have 3 different restrooms, Men, Women, and Whatever.


:laugh4:

Husar
11-09-2006, 17:10
Next up I want to choose my height and skin colour on my passport myself, basixcally everything, why can't I put a picture of a cockroach onto my passport? I think it represents my original self a lot better.:dizzy2: :wall:

lars573
11-09-2006, 17:52
This is stupid for two reasons; it leaves a medical fact up to the feelings of the person, and it erases their history. Getting a gender change is one thing, changing the records to make it look as though you were born that gender is logically wrong.

CR

Regardless of which sex a person considers themselves, shouldn't your birth certificate be a record of the sex you were when you were born?
You can legally change your name. Right back to your birth certificate. Is that wrong? There are records beyond your birth certificate that contain the particulars of your birth.



come on people...this should be easy....

a man has XY cromossomes.....a woman has XX....(more complicated cases to be discussed later) and nothing you chop off/add will change this.

well...I guess they can do whatever they want and it doesn´t affect me....but some people are just nutty.
It's actually far from that easy. Sometimes a girl born with a vagina is genectically XY (IE a man), and has testicles inside in the position of ovaries. Boys born with deformed genetals are very often given sex changes as infants and raised as girls. Practically at gun point. I was watching a show about such people and this one couple had a son born with malformed male parts and the doctors were practically calling child services because they wouldn't go for a sex change. The doctor even said don't give you baby a name till I've turned him into a her.

King Henry V
11-09-2006, 18:14
http://zzzuuum.no.sapo.pt/LIFE_OF_BRIAN-001.jpghttp://zzzuuum.no.sapo.pt/LIFE_OF_BRIAN-002.jpg
https://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/paladru/brian/LIFE_OF_BRIAN-003.jpg
REG
What?

STAN
I want to be a woman... from now on I want you all to call me Loretta.

REG
What???

LORETTA
It's my right as a man.

JUDITH
Well why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?

LORETTA
I want to have babies.

REG
You want to have babies?

LORETTA
It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

REG
But you can't have babies!

LORETTA
Don't you oppress me.

REG
I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb. Where's the fetus
going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?

http://zzzuuum.no.sapo.pt/LIFE_OF_BRIAN-004.jpg

Kralizec
11-09-2006, 18:20
:gah2: Next thing you know we will have 3 different restrooms, Men, Women, and Whatever.

An Italian MP tried to work on that, when a transgender MP was elected in parliament :laugh4:


come on people...this should be easy....

a man has XY cromossomes.....a woman has XX....(more complicated cases to be discussed later) and nothing you chop off/add will change this.

well...I guess they can do whatever they want and it doesn´t affect me....but some people are just nutty. :dizzy2:

Agreed.

Devastatin Dave
11-09-2006, 20:11
Sweet, I always wanted to be a black woman named Aunt Jemima!!!:beam:

Xiahou
11-09-2006, 20:13
Sweet, I always wanted to be a black woman named Aunt Jemima!!!:beam:
Dave, you can choose your gender- but not your race. Don't be ridiculous. :dizzy2:

yesdachi
11-09-2006, 20:14
Dave, you can choose your gender- but not your race. Don't be ridiculous. :dizzy2:
Michael Jackson?

Crazed Rabbit
11-09-2006, 20:15
You can legally change your name. Right back to your birth certificate. Is that wrong? There are records beyond your birth certificate that contain the particulars of your birth.

We're talking about medical genders here, not names.

CR

Scurvy
11-09-2006, 20:23
- Yes but medical history should be recorded

The_Doctor
11-09-2006, 20:30
Sweet, I always wanted to be a black woman named Aunt Jemima!!!

So your saying your NOT and a black woman called Aunt Jemima.

Now I am really confused.:dizzy2:

Mithras
11-09-2006, 21:21
It seems likely that within a few decades they'll be able to completly alter your gender anyway so the only definition which will mean anything will be be personal perspective.

I'm getting turned into a gorgeous Goth chick first damn oppertunity I get so I can spend all day staring at myself in those kinky cleavage revealing clothes they wear heh.

The_Doctor
11-09-2006, 21:28
I get so I can spend all day staring at myself in those kinky cleavage revealing clothes they wear heh.

Until your female hormones kick in...:balloon2:

lars573
11-09-2006, 23:53
We're talking about medical genders here, not names.

CR
Which both can be changed.



Until your female hormones kick in...
Some men get a sex change then declare themselfs lesbians. Gender benders can be a complecated bunch.

Mithras
11-10-2006, 00:22
Some men get a sex change then declare themselfs lesbians. Gender benders can be a complecated bunch.


Their are a surprising amount who do Retain their fondness for the gender they've now joined. I suppose Gender identity and sexual preferance are actually distinct...which is conveniant for all the time I'm going to spend in front of the mirror.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
11-10-2006, 00:27
Kinda Don't Understand this, but it's because I'm to lazy to win the Article :-/ :)

Devastatin Dave
11-10-2006, 03:29
So your saying your NOT and a black woman called Aunt Jemima.

Now I am really confused.:dizzy2:
Hey, don't stereostye me!!! Jus' cuz I make the best damn syrup in the world that one taste will make you go home and slap yo mamma!!!:laugh4:

Oaty
11-10-2006, 05:15
Guess shes stuck with using the ladies room then

http://www.answers.com/topic/buck-angel

Del Arroyo
11-10-2006, 06:55
You ever hear the expression "If it feels so good it can't be wrong?"

Well, I would say, that if is feels really, really wrong, it's probably... wrong.

Seamus Fermanagh
11-10-2006, 16:23
Sex = physical nature (Male, Female, Hermaphodite)

This is hardwired genetically (XX, XY, XXY and other rarer variants). Among Homo Sapiens, it is not mutable. While alterations can be made in one sex to render the appearance and some of the function of the other sex, no chromosomal level change is possible.


Gender = psychological orientation ("Male," "Female," "You Name It")

People's sense of their own Gender can and does vary. While it is possible to characterize a "baseline" male or female, you would find any number of variants. e.g. Males with a more "feminine" communication style, Women with no desire to birth and nurture and a preference for combat.


I oppose allowing such an alteration of birth records and the like because I am a traditionalist. While discrimination is wrong, I still retain some belief in the value of the traditional roles and see them as congruent with the large majority of individuals. Medical records probably should make assessments of both physical sex and self-perceived gender roles.

AntiochusIII
11-10-2006, 16:42
I oppose allowing such an alteration of birth records and the likeWasn't birth record a document that records your history?

Wouldn't altering them to suit your tastes be something of a fraud, then?

CrossLOPER
11-10-2006, 16:52
I want to be a girl named Misses Lilly.
I want to be a girl who's really pretty.
All the boys will come after me, really.
My how I want to be a girl named Misses Lilly.

EDIT: I'm teh thread killa!

Devastatin Dave
11-13-2006, 16:42
I want to be a girl named Misses Lilly.
I want to be a girl who's really pretty.
All the boys will come after me, really.
My how I want to be a girl named Misses Lilly.

EDIT: I'm teh thread killa!
Can i be your aunt named Jemima?

Fragony
11-13-2006, 16:56
Can i be your aunt named Jemima?

I got just what you need hotlips, you will love this

http://www-old.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~morph/Transformer/index.html

CrossLOPER
11-13-2006, 17:23
Yea, thanks for taking away my title of "teh thread killa". Now I'm back to sugar lips.:shame:

Fragony
11-13-2006, 17:29
Yea, thanks for taking away my title of "teh thread killa". Now I'm back to sugar lips.:shame:

Oh it was supposed to be a threadkiller, my bad, I thought you were killing poetry ~;)

CrossLOPER
11-13-2006, 17:40
Oh it was supposed to be a threadkiller, my bad, I thought you were killing poetry ~;)
lololololololololololololollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllll

Avicenna
11-13-2006, 20:06
Political correctness strikes again!

Divinus Arma
11-13-2006, 22:18
A man who has his penis removed and who has a hole dug into his flesh is just a mutilated man.

Byzantine Prince
11-13-2006, 22:40
Gender is irrelevent.

Mooks
11-14-2006, 03:36
There was a show that my brother was watching about some guys who changed their gender. They interviewed like 8 guys (Or should they be called woman?) - all of them were disqustingly ugly, and had mustouchas.

Bunch of freaks if you ask me :thumbsdown:

Fragony
11-15-2006, 15:17
There was a show that my brother was watching about some guys who changed their gender. They interviewed like 8 guys (Or should they be called woman?) - all of them were disqustingly ugly, and had mustouchas.

Bunch of freaks if you ask me :thumbsdown:

Some turn out pretty well, even freakier that is. Now I am about to be greatly mocked by the dutch members by saying that I personally know this one (friend of mine dates her for some reason, it really is a burden on our friendship that I keep calling 'her' his personal fleshwound)

but then again, since AdrianII is a journalist for a quality newspaper I don't mind selling dirty information about moisterisers :beam:

Fragony
11-15-2006, 15:21
ya I picture comes with that, me want edit.

http://www.tvbabes.com/bigbrother/images/kellygroot.jpg

Andres
11-15-2006, 15:48
Shouldn't this thread be moved?

After all, threads about modding belong in the modding section...

Ronin
11-15-2006, 15:50
I'm getting turned into a gorgeous Goth chick first damn oppertunity I get so I can spend all day staring at myself in those kinky cleavage revealing clothes they wear heh.

Sig worthy! :laugh4:

Moros
11-15-2006, 21:43
Very True. You are who you are, oh well. :whip:
True, I doubt it. I think alot of people aren't who they are.

Kralizec
11-16-2006, 16:06
Some turn out pretty well, even freakier that is. Now I am about to be greatly mocked by the dutch members by saying that I personally know this one (friend of mine dates her for some reason, it really is a burden on our friendship that I keep calling 'her' his personal fleshwound)

but then again, since AdrianII is a journalist for a quality newspaper I don't mind selling dirty information about moisterisers :beam:

Don't be so misogynist!

And you forgot to mention that she was almost beat by a chimpanzee in an IQ test :smash:

Rodion Romanovich
11-18-2006, 10:20
Nice, now I can pretend to be a woman in by birth certificate, but don't do any surgery, and to all women I meet on parties I would say I was a man because they don't need to see my birth certificate. Then I would be allowed to enter women's bathrooms and changing rooms, without surgery and without being unable to be a man at parties! Sounds like a good idea to me :wink: