A little Idea... [Archive]

Filibustería

11-13-2006, 03:09

Sorry for my english...
I was thinking in the possibilities than M2TW offers and I had an idea for a mod:

It takes place in the 1400's, featuring as main faction a still surviving and decadent Roman Empire, which didn`t fell before the barbarian invasions.
The Gauls, Germans and Britons would be independent, but they wouldn't have adopted the roman culture as they did in reality. Gunpowder and new tactics would be combined with the Ancient warfare.
here I made a Roman Soldier :
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/Rome_Renassaince_1.JPG

Eastern factions would have evolved too, Parthia would be a huge and powerful Empire, and a new Carthage would have been founded by intellectuals and aristocrats that hated Rome, transforming it soon in a significant power again...
The Roman Empire would have been largely reduced due to the invasions, but not completely lost.
I havent created other factions cause its useless unles someone is interested by my mod...
Here is the current map idea:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Roman_new_empire_1.JPG
Perhaps some new carthage pikemen?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/Carthage1.JPG

Im not a modeller, nor a skinner or scripter, but i want to inspire people into this idea, that can be used or even chaged a little to create a great mod.
Thanks

caius britannicus

11-13-2006, 19:32

Hrm, interesting. Oddly enough I have been developing a concept (over the last couple months) for a medieval 2 mod that sorta has the same idea. However it goes a little farther back in setting up the factions. I've actually written alot of the new history already and developed alot of the equipement. For instance here is a drawing from about 3 weeks ago:

https://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4730/morealexconceptsdd7.th.jpg (https://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=morealexconceptsdd7.jpg)

I was alittle worried that my unique idea was now out in the open and I would have to work with someone else with a competing vision. Now I am wrestling with announcing an actual mod or still staying quite.

Filibustería

11-13-2006, 21:43

But do you think it could work?
What equipmenthave you developed?
Are those drawings yours?

caius britannicus

11-13-2006, 22:31

But do you think it could work?
What equipmenthave you developed?
Are those drawings yours?

Why couldn't it work. It just requires someone with experience. In the end my idea differs greatly from yours as I have rewritten the history alot including the factions that are in places like England, france, germany, eastern europe, africa and spain. I have reshaped religions and cities omitted historical characters or re-written what they did. Where as yours basically take rome before the barbarian invasions and just move it towards the medieval period.

Equipement wise I have basically been working through developing the evolution of alexandrian era greek equipment to the medieval era (thats what you see in the drawing, those are concepts for various greek inspired helmets). Currently I have started developing the roman medieval equipment based off early imperial and late republic arms.

And yes, the drawings are mine.... whose else would they be?

Filibustería

11-14-2006, 00:31

Wow it seems that you made a lot of work there, and those drawings are amazing! It would be much more fair if we respected your original idea and work.:beam:
But you said germany, england, france.
Do you think that if the roman empire hadnt fell, they would have been created anyway?
I mean, if the empire hadnt fell, the imperial system would remain, so the feudalism wouldnt have been created, cause the payment system wouldnt have mixed with the german one. I think,that the gauls, britons and germans would have confederated in three important semi-barbaric tribes, adopting new warfare methods but still remaining celtic and magical, threatening the roman empire constantly.
But i am no researcher,:no: perhaps you have good reasons for putting those 3 countries, so tell me what you think.
In my original idea, i had planned the confederated germas as this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/Germanic_reinassance_1.JPG
Not that warhammer-ish, but somethimg like that.

caius britannicus

11-14-2006, 01:28

when I said germany, england and france I was referring to the locations not the kingdoms. The history I am developing is rather elobarote. For instance Britannia in my history is conquered by the roman empire in 115BC (which is an empire already, long story part of the histories) and held as a province until 750ish AD after a 10 year struggle with Northmen Invaders. Roman presence on the mainland however allowed the Northmens kingdom to flourish and by the start date of the mod would have under its control the entire island. The faction itself would draw its influence from viking culture however it would be modernized a bit with a bit of roman influence in it. This is the sort of thing I am developing for those regions. Its not so muched based in historical fact but more on imaginative what ifs.

Filibustería

11-14-2006, 01:35

Ah ok.:2thumbsup:
Could you paint-draw a map specifiyng the limits of the empire and the staring date of the mod according to your original Idea?
Thanks.

caius britannicus

11-14-2006, 01:43

I'm still in a wip, I've only developed brief histories for factions outside of the Roman and Alexandrian empires and even they are works in progress and subject to change. However I can put together something. This idea of mine isn't ready for production any time soon. Probably won't start tangible work (aka modelling, textures, maps and coding) until the spring and only if its a feasible project. Mtw2 is an improvement over RTW but I don't know exactly how modible it is.

EDIT: Heres my initial idea on starting locations for the Roman and Alexandrian Empires

https://img390.imageshack.us/img390/9514/ideamapyp3.th.jpg (https://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ideamapyp3.jpg)

Murfios

11-14-2006, 02:46

Don't you think Baabarians by that time be more organised? You know, you could actually replace that wooden shield with a breast plate of crude iron. It works better stoping bullets than the shield.

Another Thing: I like the idea of Carthage being like a rebel empire that loathes Rome. Its so original.

Filibustería

11-14-2006, 02:49

Hey that map is great how did you make it???
Besides of Roman and Alexandrian empires, and northern-conquered britain, what other factions would it be?
I think you should include some real ones like turks, they could have perfectly conquered those regions whether the roman empire had fell or not....

I have a question..
Was Jesus born according to your story?

Murfios

11-14-2006, 03:08

caius britannicus

11-14-2006, 03:12

you know, he could have been born, but not crucified because only romans used that punishment. Greeks actualy respected jew and would have found a logical explanation to solve the problem. Jesus could had just lived and died normaly. His religion would have been forgoten. If Jesus would to have existed, that could be an explanation.

Indeed, what I have developed religion wise is fairly similiar to this. I don't delve into the history of christ but what I did decide upon was that christianity never really got anywhere past a cult following in israel. The romans never adopted the religion and so they maintained their pagan ways. The Greeks under Alexander eventually diefied him and he replaced Zeus atop the pantheon. However, to add some variety I have left Islam. Now some would say how did islam develop without a christian religion? What I have decided is that islam would have developed out of judaisim from captured Jewish slaves. I haven't fleshed it out entirely but thats the direction I am heading.

Hey that map is great how did you make it???
Besides of Roman and Alexandrian empires, and northern-conquered britain, what other factions would it be?
I think you should include some real ones like turks, they could have perfectly conquered those regions whether the roman empire had fell or not....

In my history factions outside of roman influence remain, however they will be slightly different. Polish and russian factions would exist, with slight changes along with a native iberian kingdom and arab west african faction. I've also thought of having the mongol invasion already occuring and in an attempt to secure its borders the Alexandrian EMpire has given the Mongols some of its territory in a peace agreement.

Murfios

11-14-2006, 04:42

caius britannicus

11-14-2006, 04:44

Cant you start making this game for R:TW? Besides, MII:TW will need:
ABOUT:
3.1 procesor
1g ram
128 Video Card

And not many people will get it, that will make alot of RTW gamers unhappy and will continue to play it until they get money.

I'm done with RTW, it has far too many limitations and the more I hear about MTW2 the more it seems to fit my needs with this idea. Plus, as I mentioned production is at least 4 months away. By then RTW will be long forgotten.

Antagonist

11-14-2006, 21:08

Very interesting idea, if a little unorthodox. I must admit that I'm a fan of alternate history, fun way to combine real knowledge with imagination. :book:

I actually made a small mod for Mount & Blade with a similar premise, I think it was too far out for most of that game's mod community, but it might still be up there somewhere. Reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who thought Romans with muskets might be an interesting idea...

Anyway, keep developing the idea and maybe it will go places. Good luck.

Antagonist

Filibustería

11-14-2006, 22:44

could this work for an Alexandrian Late XV Century Knight?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Greek_reinassance.JPG

NagatsukaShumi

11-17-2006, 11:31

I must say I am very impressed by this idea and I think it has huge potential, I am infact a bigger fan of "make believe" modifications than I am historical ones because they are so unique, you go into the game completely devoid of any knowledge of the environment in these case and you come out as a real fan of the work, I would if I had the means and time convert my own works into Total War as I think they provide such an interesting alternative.

Hopefully this will come to fruition caius britannicus, I will certainly look forward to it.

caius britannicus

11-17-2006, 17:48

Its gonna be a task. Especially if modelling turns out to be an ordeal. Although the plan is to utilize CA orginal meshes and add the odds and ends to them instead of trying to develop original meshes. But that sort of thing is months in the future. Right now its all about developing the histories and concepts.

Fil: Its not a bad idea for a late XV century helmet. Part of the Companian Guard Cavalry maybe. I haven't really developed later armor as I am working right now to develop the earlier stuff. For instance here are some helmets from a few weeks ago (they predate the drawings I posted above) as well the top four are early thracian great helms designed to be used with the Companian Guard Cavalry:

https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7084/morealexhelmetslh3.th.jpg (https://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=morealexhelmetslh3.jpg)

The bottom two are infantry designs.

Myrddraal

11-18-2006, 00:43

This is a mamoth project, but it could be very cool. Good luck with it :thumbsup:

Filibustería

11-18-2006, 02:35

Fil: Its not a bad idea for a late XV century helmet. Part of the Companian Guard Cavalry maybe. I haven't really developed later armor as I am working right now to develop the earlier stuff. For instance here are some helmets from a few weeks ago (they predate the drawings I posted above) as well the top four are early thracian great helms designed to be used with the Companian Guard Cavalry:

https://img239.imageshack.us/img239/7084/morealexhelmetslh3.th.jpg (https://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=morealexhelmetslh3.jpg)

The bottom two are infantry designs.

Great designs, again!
You said earlier stuff. Does that means 1100-1200 AD or 600-800 AD?

caius britannicus

11-18-2006, 05:01

ya 12th-13th century.

Murfios

11-18-2006, 06:15

You know, mixing ancient greek phalanx formation military tactics and 12th century military tactics, it could turn out to be a ground-supported,heavy, long barrel musket tactics by a bayonet. in this case more like a spear. So, Greeko Fallango Musketeers could be firing, while being protected with a spike wall. THey would no be easy target for cavalry as other infantry.

Hoplon could be replaced by a chest guard. Heavy helmet could also be replaced, by a segmented similar looking helmet, this time made out of steel, not bronce.

Filibustería

11-18-2006, 16:58

You know, mixing ancient greek phalanx formation military tactics and 12th century military tactics, it could turn out to be a ground-supported,heavy, long barrel musket tactics by a bayonet.

It would be a good idea, but i thing that there weren't muskets in the 13th Century.

And oter thing... If there is no christianism, there can be no 13th or 15th century...

caius britannicus

11-18-2006, 18:25

Filibustería

11-18-2006, 19:22

With my histories, Alexanders empire brought increased trade from China. Therefore advances in gun powder technology arrived in europe several hundred years earlier. It is my intention to include muskets from the vary beginning (or close to it) and then use them as the catalyst for stronger plate armored soldiers etc.

Oh, well then, could this work?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/83/Alexandrian_phalanx_musket.JPG

Reloading would be a HUGE problem, though.

caius britannicus

11-18-2006, 22:33

Heres a finished concept of a unit for the Alexandrian Empire:

https://img469.imageshack.us/img469/8011/hypaspist2ndclasshn5.th.jpg (https://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypaspist2ndclasshn5.jpg)

Hypaspist 2nd Class. He is a member of the Homeland Guard, a division of the finest greek soldiers the empire can collect. Their sole purpose is to protect the greek homeland stretching from Illyria to Byzantium. They were permenatly stationed in Greece after the Roman invasion of 173BC in retaliation for the Alexandrian conquest of Sicily following the 2nd Greco-Roman War.

Murfios

11-18-2006, 23:30

It would be a good idea, but i thing that there weren't muskets in the 13th Century.

And oter thing... If there is no christianism, there can be no 13th or 15th century...

You are right. But we need to be based on real time dates to be comprehended.

With my histories, Alexanders empire brought increased trade from China. Therefore advances in gun powder technology arrived in europe several hundred years earlier. It is my intention to include muskets from the very beginning (or close to it) and then use them as the catalyst for stronger plate armored soldiers etc.
I had a similar idea in mind.

Oh, well then, could this work?
Thats exelent! One detail though, they cant be sitting while firing, its too unconfortable and they cant fire with precision now that they dont have proper support. To be able to reload, they could have a musket that breaks, reload it like a normal one, then flip it back on to make a long one.

Early on, the Alexandrian Empire could have adopted the firelance from china. The "Greek Fire Lance". Was Ghenjis Khan born it your History? If he was, he could have taken a part visible in the map.(If he had not died)

caius britannicus

11-18-2006, 23:48

"Early on, the Alexandrian Empire could have adopted the firelance from china. The "Greek Fire Lance". Was Ghenjis Khan born it your History? If he was, he could have taken a part visible in the map.(If he had not died)"

As I mentioned above, the mongols very much attacked. The Alexandrian empire hit them dead on. However, like in actual history the mongols cavalry was far superior to the heavy cavalry and pikemen infantry of the Alexandrian Empire. Several crushing defeats forced the Alexandrian Emperor to abandon territory and pay a tithe based on the empires yearly taxation to the mongolian Khans to ensure the empires safety.

Filibustería

11-19-2006, 00:31

[QUOTE=Murfios]
Thats exelent! One detail though, they cant be sitting while firing, its too unconfortable and they cant fire with precision now that they dont have proper support.[QUOTE]

You're right, but they could sit once they have fired to properly recieve the cavarlt charge.

Throumbaris

11-19-2006, 00:31

Caius i have to say i love fantasy stories like that and i would love to help with some concept art. Perhaps you should make a thread of this? Also are the armor styles equivalent to early until late medieval historic ones or are you matching different eras with different ages?

Lusted

11-19-2006, 00:45

Certainly an interesting concept you guys have, and great work on the concept art Caius. You seem to be mixing alexander era greek helmets with Byzantine troop styles. I might try and see what i could do with the Romans, basing helmets off of the late roman era helms perhaps, or does the Roman army develop differently in your story.

Oh, and i hope to see some Companions who have a Kataphraktoi look thrown in for good measure.

caius britannicus

11-19-2006, 01:38

With the romans I'm having a creative block... well sort of a creative block. I haven't really decided what I want to do. The late roman helmets seem to translate better into medieval style helmets but I don't like the armor they use. In the end I may take the helmets from the late empire and use the armor from the early empire. Its hard to say how the romans armor would have evolved with no presence in greece. No dacians to fight means they would have had considerably less armor and would have likely remained in their chainmail throughout their history. At the same time however in my histories wars with the Alexandrians and carthaginians create an empire a hundred years earlier in history creating an expanding empire much sooner. But I'm concentrating on finishing an alexandrian unit list (full conceptual design) before I move onto the romans. Gives me more time to think about stuff.

Lusted

11-19-2006, 01:50

Some ideas:

As they would have been fighting the Carthaginians and Alexandrian Empire, i would expect to see them still using chainmail, maybe with some breast plates thrown in. They would likely have developed longer swords as those can cut the head off of a pike. Shields may have become flatter, more oval in shape as the legions developed into anti-phalanx troops with oval shields to push aside the pikes and longer swords to cut off the pike heads. They would also likely have anti-cav spear units, maybe even making their own version of the phalanx. In response to the Alexandrian empires companinos and Thessalians they would likely have developed their own counter unit of elite cavalry, with small shield strapped to arm, double handed lance, hamata/squamata armour and graves. Helmets im not sure about, maybe late Roman/early republic influenced?

Murfios

11-19-2006, 22:28

Yes, with no Dacia present, their helmets would be flimsy, and with no greek present their sector segmenta would be rather crude, or plain. Chain mail it posible to have been forgotten, just because its making is slow and expensive.Their shields howerver, could have been not flat but bent in. This would help to mantain the pikes from the Alexandrians in jammed in the shield while they would chop the wooden shaft.

Note: Throught warfare, romas would have eventualy develp warfare similar to that in reality, throught trial and error.

caius britannicus

11-21-2006, 04:00

more concept art for alexandrian units:

https://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3559/hypaspistfirstclassqz4.th.jpg (https://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypaspistfirstclassqz4.jpg)

Hypaspist First Class, also known as the Silver Shield Guard. These men form the household guard of the Alexandrian Emperors. They were first formed under Alexander the Great and eventually formed into the elite fighting force. True to their name their kite shields are still emblazened with silver for the vergina sun, while they carry a short spear and sword for combat.

Murfios

11-21-2006, 04:15

impresive

Xxl3o0mxX

11-21-2006, 04:33

Damn, I haven't posted here in a long time but that is just how much this has intrigued me. Please post more pictures and information as I REALLY enjoy looking at all of these pictures and reading about this. I think it would be a VERY good idea to first create a very extensive database and backstory of this world and group all the pictures together to create a large database and then move onto modding as the large database would really draw people into this. If you have a large amount of information and pictures I could set you up a little website for it if it gets big enough. Good job man.

Murfios

11-23-2006, 20:01

Muslim religion could be changed into "Allajians" worshiperas to Ala, and other local gods. It would be strange that muslims where existent.
BTW; we will need a starting date....How about the "sight of Helios" when a comet bashed the earth and people thought it was helios, or something like that...

caius britannicus

11-24-2006, 17:21

More concept art:

https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6468/hypfirstcalssfulljp6.th.jpg (https://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hypfirstcalssfulljp6.jpg)
Phalanx Guardsmen seen here carry swords and bucklers. They originally used by Alexander himself to protect the flanks of the phalanx. However, in antiquity they wore heavy bronze cuirasses and carried large hoplon shields and thus were terribly imobile. As time past and wars continued to flare up between the alexandrians and romans the need for mobile defensive troops arose. The shield bearers were made into a light infantry, wearing chainmail and leather for armor while their large shield was replaced with a smaller lighter wood shield. They still perform the role of protecting the flanks and gaps in the phalanx (hence the name Phalanx Guardsmen), however because of their mobility they can easily engage the romans as well as maneuver behind defensive lines to strengthen an weak points in the line.

https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/341/theurophoroism5.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theurophoroism5.jpg)
The Thureophoroi of Alexanders time were heavily armored javelin throwers. They carried lighter armor then their hoplite brethren but were extremely capable soldiers. During the later half of the Alexandrian empires life, as gun powder began to flow into the empire from china this unit adopted the hand cannon. Their heavy armor and massive stopping power (thanks to the hand cannon) makes them a formidable opponent on the battlefield.

Lusted

11-24-2006, 18:19

Great work as usual Caius. I wish i could draw as well as you can.

I particularly love the fact that they look Alexandrian Greek, but mixed with medieval stuff. This is especially true of the thureophoroi.

Dave1984

11-24-2006, 19:20

I think this mod has fantastic potential. Looking forward to more concept art, and with any luck a finished project in the future!

Murfios

11-25-2006, 00:24

Nice

caius britannicus

11-26-2006, 16:13

More concept art

https://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2366/militiainfantryjg5.th.jpg (https://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=militiainfantryjg5.jpg)

Militia Infantry. Wearing a leather jerkin over top their tunic, these men are certainly not the best armored troops at your disposal. Their link to the past comes from the glaive they carry for a weapon. Over the years armor and weapons were passed down from father to son. In many cases the sword of choice was the falcata eventually as the weapons aged the hilts would break or rot. Because the peasantry was too poor to have it refashioned into a falcata many times they would attach it to a broken spear shaft. Eventually this design became the weapon of choice for the lower classes of the Alexandrian empire.

NagatsukaShumi

11-28-2006, 00:18

As usual, some brilliant artwork there. Certainly one of those projects to look out for! Looks like your developing your ideas very well.

Casuir

11-28-2006, 17:54

What I have decided is that islam would have developed out of judaisim from captured Jewish slaves. I haven't fleshed it out entirely but thats the direction I am heading.

Theres no real need to involve slavery, Judaism was widespread in the Hejaz at the time of Muhammad, probably more so than christianity and as such would have had a greater impact on him. The town of Medina for example was largely jewish on his arrival there.

Bohemians

12-05-2006, 23:03

Caius, I have a french medieval fantastic comic that has some units that are pretty much a mix of Greek-Byzantines-Medieval troops you might want to have a look at... I can scan it to send you the pictures if you want... let me know.

Btw, one Fine idea it is... some historical-fantastic world to rule the world ! :D

If you have the mongols already in the game, you might want to use that trigger to get someone else involved... like the Aztecs invading europe from the west ! ;)

I just read this french guy Jacques de Mahieu who strongly beleive that Vikings lived in southamerica... and that they came down here as early as 967 AD !!! First to Mexico with some 700 Vikings of both sex... and that 20 years later he left Mexico to go to Venezuela and Colombia... And suposedly they went down the rivers and finaly installed themselves in the shores of the Lake Titicaca, and founded their colonial capital their called : Tiahuanacu. And with the help of the Aymaras and the Quetchuas conquered a big piece of land up to chile, where the Diaguitas from north of Chile around 1290 revolted and finally killed most of the whitemen and burned down their capital city in Titicaca. But some 10 years later, a few of the faithfull native got together and built a city in El Cuzco and founded the Inca Empire...
Anyway, to make this short, even if the idea is pretty wild, he selfconvinced everyone he found many signs of this coalision and mixture... but my point is, you could have some VERY original units coming back to europe from the west this time, with very original skins...

The book is called "Drakkars on the Amazon" (The Vikings in the Pre-columbian America) from Jacques de Mahieu.

At your service, Bohemians The Arrawak Viking Guard

nikolai1962

12-06-2006, 07:12

Great idea.

lolalot222

12-06-2006, 13:09

without the dark ages would the carthaginians or greeks discovered teh americas? And also will the alexandrians and carthaginians have elephants. An idea for the alexandrians is make them appear very little and be very expensive symbolizing that you got them by trade.

paullus

12-11-2006, 23:47

caius, there weren't any thureophoroi "of alexander's time."

now, if he lives longer in your alternative history, then he'd have to come back from babylon to fight the invading galatians (unless they kept their alliance with him), so then in your alternate history he could end up with thureophoroi during his lifetime.

interesting idea, good luck with it. i imagine its the sort of thing that could be very popular with a lot of people. i for one have always had a lot of fun with the counterfactuals.

keravnos

12-13-2006, 12:02

I am just going to wish you good luck. Creative vision is yours and yours alone. The others are just helping to refine that. BUT IT IS YOUR VISION, that can push this through. Hope you don't lose heart on this, since it is SUPER KEWL... :2thumbsup:

Murfios

12-15-2006, 21:44

Norsemen did land on America, but the legend says that they where exterminated because they sold milk to the natives and it gave them cramps because they where not used to drink it. However, im not sure if they did established themselfs, or if they invaded someone.

Faenaris

12-21-2006, 14:28

Just taking a quick break from studying and I stumbled onto this thread.

This idea is pure gold! The possibilities, the fun, the creativity ... This mod is on my watchlist.

Murfios

02-04-2007, 05:05

Bump...When we get the tools, you could start development. I would like to join you both. If you do accept me, toghrthrt with some other ten people it could have an very good potential. We could be the next Europa Barbarum.:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

Edit: Ill make some concept art on Medieval Roman Legions. It can be fun for both of our art styles to clash, and later solidify into actuall potential.