The seriousness of marriage alliances [Archive]

Tamur

11-13-2006, 18:55

hi all,

I am wondering, do we have any data on whether alliances forged (or strengthened) by the marriage of a princess actually do live up to the manual's statement that "A marriage alliance is serious, and both parties are expected to honour the deal." ?

I don't have the game yet, just reading the manual and wondered whether the manual writers were merely waxing poetic here.

maestro

11-13-2006, 19:09

Odd - I hadn't noticed that marrying my pricess into a faction gets me an alliance. Maybe it's only when you marry a member of the royal family: I always seem to only be able to find unmarried generals. :dizzy2:

Jambo

11-13-2006, 19:42

It has to be the faction heir. I got a marriage alliance with the English this way...

Tamur

11-13-2006, 22:18

Is that alliance holding well, Jambo? Perhaps you haven't played into that game enough to know, but it would be interesting to know whether those sorts of alliances can truly be relied on.

Jambo

11-13-2006, 22:34

Yeah, it lasted surprisingly well! In fact I was beginning to worry about the soppy English. Relations did worsen eventually and war broke out, but not for about 50 or so turns.

Basileus

11-13-2006, 23:22

Best way to get a good alliance in my opinion, every time ive used marriage to seal an alliance its been sollid, alliances other wise break easely otherwise.

ulyanov

11-21-2006, 07:24

I had Milan as a marriage ally for 50 odd turns. Last turn they turned and attacked me, even though my King is married to the milanese princess. They found a lone General on a bridge and attacked with 6 Spearmen, 4 or 5 Genoese Crossbows, some other foot soldiers and a General. About 900 men in total.

My General was all alone, but the Garrison of Antwerp (3 Longbows, one town militia, 2 dismounted knights and one mailed knights) came out to support him (I had to manually control them, though) Total about 400 men.

Because the garrison was coming in later I couldn't deploy around the bridge, so I had to hold back. Fortunately the milanese general sent his crossbows first, so I was able to rout one unit with my general, and hurt another bad with the mounted knights before I had to pull back from the spears.

After that, I let him come on to my bows, who did a good job, till the milanese general got stuck into one of them. I was able to get him off with 75% losses only after charging with my general. Meanwhile my dismounted knights were hurting the spears, and the mouted knights were hurting the crossbows.

I finally got the entire enemy army to rout, and took everyon prisoner. Final result was 800 losses to 100, from a battle of 2:1 odds, and I still only got a "Clear Victory" damn. Not sure if that is because I'm on the default difficulty (hard?) or becuase the bridge gives an auto-antiheroic flag or what...

But anyway, back on topic...

The Marriage alliance was broken by an opportunistic attack by the #1 military power vs the #2 military power. Thanks to Milan's loss of 800 men (they refused ransom) I am now #1 militarily... :D

reconspy

11-21-2006, 08:30

Yeah, marriage alliances are solid. Now, that does not mean that the AI won't "backstab" you - they will. But there is some logic to it (or maybe it's wishful thinking).

(H/H) As France, I kicked off the game by marrying the princess to the heir of England. Now, the alliance between our two kingdoms was solid for 50 turns. War only broke out when my King died. Why is this relevant? Well, in this situation the English now had a claim to the French throne (have a look at the family tree in this situation and you'll see).

Now, is this a conincidence or something else? Who knows? But in some ways, it does make sense. Unfortunately, the AI is not able to (or maybe unwilling to?) break the agreements first which results in them getting bad reputations. But then, maybe that's part of the whole "surprise attack". :smash:

derfinsterling

11-21-2006, 08:50

In MTW, you supposebly were able to get the lands of your ally if you married your heir or a princess to them and all of them died (supposebly, because in all my MTW games the no family ever died out).

Does this happen with marriage alliances in M2TW as well?
I've got one now with Sicily - had to pay them through the nose to get that alliance, but I had the cash and I really, really needed some allies. Since my diplomats can't negotiate squat, I took them on on their offer.

Widget Maker

11-21-2006, 11:20

Well I married my faction Heir off to the HRE to improve relations (along with 15000 bribe), They promptly seiged my closest town a couple of turns late. All it did was give a Normal alliance, better relations may have given trade rights as well , can't remember 100%

chunkynut

11-21-2006, 13:11

I've had 2 alliances by marriage and both were stead fast until my ever expanding assassin training scheme hit the spainish (first alliance) and the polish (second alliance), diplomatic faux pars were made by me (I tried to kill a family member ;) ) so I got a war with spain and a uneasy peace with poland.

I've been the one who back stabs so ...

Kobal2fr

11-21-2006, 13:58

@reconspy : I've had the reverse in my last campaign - as the English I managed to have Constance (the 5 charm princess the French start with) marry my not-so-charming prince. The alliance held until 1150ish, so roughly 35 turns, until they marched on Caen but I do believe I asked for it :

First, I had trained my assassins against theirs (didn't get caught and killed, but failed twice so maybe they knew it was me), and then I'd seen whole stacks move around the Paris region, brushing the frontier then going back for a few turns before that. I figured they really wanted to have a go, but the marriage thing held them back. I built a small army in Caen just in case, then the Council asked me to take Bruges. I didn't really want to since I first wanted to finish with the conquest of the British Isles, but I needed the money, so off I sent the army, leaving a skeletal garrison inside. Next turn, bam, French invasion. Like I said, I asked for it.

Don't think it had anything to do with succession, though former-prince Rufus was indeed king at the time.

KARTLOS

11-21-2006, 16:01

as the poles i married a russian princess at the begginning of the game. this alliance held for the entire campaign on h/h. this is despite the fact that i severely restricted the russians expansion as i took all the baltic and steppe cities for myself.

danfda

11-21-2006, 16:04

I played a camp as the English and got a marriage alliance with France on the very first turn. It lasted until about the tenth turn. So much for being considered extremely important. The only good thing that came out of the mess was the Froggies got excommed...

Flavius Gonzo

11-21-2006, 19:55

I had a similar situation as danfida did, but I don't think it counted as a marriage alliance. As the manual says, a princess has to marry a faction heir for this to count.

Arifel

11-21-2006, 20:46

Important or not, it seems only do-able at the beginning of the campaign, and then all heirs will be already married, rendering your princesses useless as diplomatic tools (besides as plain diplomats).

It would be so nice if marriage can be arranged for 2 or more heirs in line so that they don't have to wait until their 40s and have already married local women before being considered for arranged marriage....

Anyhow, it is very difficult to see how having multiple marriages between 2 factions affect their relationship. One game as Spain on M/M, I kept all my family members from marrying so that when one of them becomes next heir, I can arrange one.

During that campaign I've managed to have 2 marriages with France, 2 marriages with Holy Roman Empire, 2 marriages with Portugal and 1 marriage with Venice. It seems that a diplomatic marriage ends when the couple dies of old age. These factions all considered me to be "Amiable" for a while without having to bribe them. But then they went to war with each other, I didn't cancel alliance with any of them, and that dragged down my relationship with all of them. After that, they proceeded to turn on me one by one just like every other game.

I don't try to get diplomatic marriages any more. It's just not worth keeping the whole family celibate until they make it possible to choose heir or at least arrange marriage for the 3rd and 4th in line for the throne.

Whacker

11-21-2006, 20:52

Sir Robin

11-21-2006, 23:31

I have been able to get descent alliances with marriage but it does depend on the situation. As a Byz, H/VH, player I usually aim for Hungary first. They usually betray me 50 to 100 turns in no matter what.

However I have had alliances with the Turks that lasted for 100 turns or more.:dizzy2: That just doesn't make sense to me since the Venetians usually betray me less than twenty turns after signing an alliance no matter what.

I usually try to get two marriages with Hungary and this keeps them off my back for a while. Marriages can make the peace last longer but they will turn on you sooner or later no matter what you do.:juggle2:

maestro

11-21-2006, 23:58

In my latest campaign as the English (H/VH), my very first move was to marry my faction heir to the French princess to enable me to have years of peace with the Froggies and build up my forces whilst i take a few rebel settlements to start with. Only thing is - i'm about 30 turns into the game and the French got excommunicated. The Pope, with whom I have 9/10 standing and who is my ally, has asked me to break my alliance with the dirty, heathen Frenchmen. I think my standing with the Pope is good enough for me to ignore him and keep the alliance. I am "reliable" in diplomacy and don't wish for that to change. the Pope can be bought or relations improved with religious acts and I think maintining my alliance with the French is more to my benefit, especially since the Danes have just invaded ~;)

Marquis of Roland

11-22-2006, 00:52

Playing English, got me that french princess right off the bat and frenchies haven't attacked me since. 1st crusade started about 10 turns ago though so not too far along yet. However, after my king takes my only full stack to crusade, frenchies move a 3/4 stack snooping around angers looking shady.

"The French cannot be trusted!" ::smash:

P.S.
Wonder if the alliance ends when the happy couple dies :skull:

Whacker

11-22-2006, 01:12

P.S.
Wonder if the alliance ends when the happy couple dies :skull:

Doubtful that the alliance ends, but nevertheless an outstanding question, and one that you should post right away to the research wizards in the campaign mechanics research thread, post-haste! It would be good to know if one or both of the couple dies, if the alliance weakens any. Also, it'd be great to be able to see the actual values assigned to the relationships between factions, through either something that extracts them from a savegame, or even better, a console command that can let us view and/or change them. :2thumbsup:

Shimmeringsea

02-01-2007, 10:09

On two occasions my council has suggested that a marriage between my English princess and one of the English generals would be favourable - and the faction has between 6 and 10 turns to arrange the matrimony and complete the mission. How do you arrange it?

The princess character does not see the general character as being available for marriage - I've tried shacking them up in the same castle or town, kept them together on campaign - but come the final turn allocated by the IA, the mission is deemed failed. Any suggestions would be welcome...

Mark:book:

sapi

02-01-2007, 10:55

You might have better luck entereing diplomacy with the faction and seeing if you have any relevant options.

Shimmeringsea

02-01-2007, 12:12

Thanks for quick respons: I didn't make my explanation very clear - I am playing as English faction; the council suggests that one of my English generals wishes to marry an English princess...arrange the marriage in xx number of turns (6 to 10 turns). As mentioned above, I've replayed the saved game a few times and have tried the princess diplomacy options when she is in the vicinity of the said general, she doesn't see him as being available fo marriage. I've stacked them together in towns, castles and the cornfield - now't happens. The mission fails.

Is there any other way to promote the marriage?

Thanks
Mark

SnowlyWhite

02-01-2007, 12:34

right click on the town where your guy is with the princess; you'll be shown a portrait with the general in cause and 100% chances of success for marriage. Press the button on the right side of the panel.

Regarding alliances:

- I think that the solidity of the marriage is very much wishful thinking. But, ok... maybe it holds better(again, I couldn't really realize, the unpatched diplo ai is sooo random is hard to figure anyway);
- it's the only way to ally with someone who's at war with one of your current allies. Use it to save a faction(for instance, I'm allied with many who all jumped on hre; I want to save hre - I move my princess, marry their guy, bam, alliance, all my allies end war with them automatically). Obviously, this is only so good, because they'll soon jump again on them, but meh...
- regarding the dificulty of getting a marriage; CAMP one of their cities! That after the 1st turns; camp their city, have your princess enter diplo each turn, and when you notice that you can get a marriage(when there's a new faction heir)... press the button;)

Emit_Flesti

02-01-2007, 14:27

This is an interesting topic. Actually, I have yet to experience a solid alliance with an AI faction. Of course, I'd like a breather every now and then, but on midgame I'm always at war with all the faction on my borders. Happened in all my campaigns, long and short. I didn't really see any difference with marriage alliances. In one of my Portuguese campaign, I was fighting the French and conquered all the way up to Rennes. I had a marriage alliance with the English but they still attacked as soon as we shared a border. This is Total War, not Total Diplomacy.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an alliance feature like CIv4 and AlphaCentauri, in which you could coordinate your attacks with an ally against a mutual enemy??

Yun Dog

02-02-2007, 08:19

Ya battles with your ally by your side are rare now

in the ol mtw they used to happen alot because of the strat map, all you had to do is both move into the same province on the same turn

now its very unlikely you and your ally will have armies that closely spaced on the strat map

on princesses - as the spanish I wed the portugese for alliance - its like turn 100 and we are still tight

but I am playing Lusteds LTC 2.1 mod

I also wed a english general and caused him to defect - see my who is Barnaby Longe thread in the AARs forum

Snoil The Mighty

02-02-2007, 09:52

Well, yes they are serious sort of. I didnt read through all the posts so I'll beg pardon if this is old news, but it can be the basis of a really solid alliance, but in my experience only if done with that first set of princesses. I don't know if the fact that princesses are 'broken' currently impacts this much, but as princesses after the origianlly spawned batch are all charmless and invite terrible traits upon those who marry them it would behoove anyone to NOT marry your man to their girl after the original lot is played out. (the other way works great on the supremely rare occaisions you can get a hated enemy to marry your nastiest, laziest, most haradin Princess-which is sadly all of them after your initial ones) The main reason this is limited to early deals is that most heirs are married before this can come into play though, after that first era. All that being said, most of my best alliances aside from the pope have been marriage alliances that I can recall. I think France ganked me fast once when I was England, one of my first campaigns, but even at that it was after I hemmed them in on all sides and had spies in all their settlements, including a couple who got caught, so....

Ciaran

02-02-2007, 11:42

But then they went to war with each other, I didn't cancel alliance with any of them, and that dragged down my relationship with all of them. After that, they proceeded to turn on me one by one just like every other game.

Oh, you have to do that yourself? I was wondering, for I had several occasions where my allies went to war with each other, but I wasn´t asked to support one or the other. One nice thing, though, Protectorates seem to survive the outbreak of hostilities between me and my vassal´s ally (which is a great improvement, though I still miss the option to make a faction dissolve their alliances).

LordKhaine

02-02-2007, 18:19

In MTW, you supposebly were able to get the lands of your ally if you married your heir or a princess to them and all of them died (supposebly, because in all my MTW games the no family ever died out).

That happened to me once. I gained all of scandinavia that way. Came to me as a bit of a suprise when it happened.

As for the subject, yes I've found them more stable. In one game I had an ally with 2 marriages between our family. Needless to say that alliance lasted a long time.

Maurus

02-02-2007, 19:35

In one of my spanish campaigns (H/H), I had a marriage alliance with bith the danes and the french,

Now the french were being destroyed by the relocated english (they had been kicked out of the british isles by the scots), so I decided to do something about it, and attacked english holdings in northern france (after getting military access from the desperate french), however I didn't wanted to take any chances and so I decided to reinforce my french frontier garrisons and I sent a diplomant to give money every turn so to keep the relations at perfect with the french, also I gave the first territory that I got conquered back to france, however before I could get a seconds one, the french attacked one of my frontier cities and thus betraying me, needles to say I apologized to the english and proceeded to wipe the floor with france

Evere since that, I never bothered again with marriage alliances, though I may give it a try again as this happened before the patch, perhaps with the patch the AI actions will be a little more logical :sweatdrop:

grapedog

02-22-2007, 03:21

I haven't really had a long time to test it, but I had an alliance with the Polish. I got a princess and married her off to the faction heir of poland, when I mouse over the little faction description where it shows reliability and relations it now shows that we have an alliance and 1 marriage between us. I'm hoping they honor it, I have quarrel with the Polish nor was I planning on it. Perhaps a marriage can strengthen a current allaince, but a marriage between two factions who were not allied previously is not as strong?

Kind of like the point system for guilds for example. having an alliance is 10 points towards not stabbing you in the back. Having an alliance then adding a marriage strengthens that bond? I don't know for sure, I'll have to see how plucky the polish are feeling in another 45 turns or so.

Sapper

02-22-2007, 12:04

I have fought a couple of campaigns as French on vh/vh and have found the marriage alliance resulting from marrying off the French princess to Rufus, the English heir, in Caen at the start an excellent way of reducing the number of fronts you have to fight on.

edbenedict77

04-01-2011, 15:41

Late to the party as usual, I now have a marriage alliance with the Milanes, (i'm playing as the English), My King Rufus the Tyrant is at the ripe old age of 60, will have to see if Milanese will break this marriage alliance once my king dies, cos i do have a common border with Milan.

Beggarman

04-02-2011, 04:26

At best, it seems you can get two marriage alliances. But Marriage Alliences do seem rather robust: I went from being poor or abysmal with england as the HRE, to being Good, and it held for a fairly long time. It's important to make sure you're not untrustworthy, If you can stay remotely normal or even nice to people, you can maintain marriage alliances for a long time.

Then again, as the HRE I've been able to hold an Alliance with the Pope and Hungary for 50+ turns. Gifting "attack rebels" to both and the occasional 1k or so florins(about every turn for a while, often alternating), I've been able to keep the Pope and Hungary very happy, giving me a rather free hand in Italy. Strangely enough, remaining friends takes more effort than teeing people off :D

Myth

04-04-2011, 08:14

It depends on your difficulty setting primarily. On VH your relations with other countries decline with time no matter what. Therefore even if you have 3 princesses married to them and two of theirs are to you the AI will still backstab you.

Beggarman

04-04-2011, 22:43

Yeah, well, in order for an alliance to last for a while, you have to put effort into it. I only play Very Hard Campaigns(battle difficulty may vary), and I can usually maintain atleast ONE alliance for the majority of the game. I do make an effort to keep my Faction Leader Chivalrous, and if my Heir starts getting too Dreadful, I'll crusade/jihad to fix that problem. High Chiv Faction Leaders help your relations. Then I make as many alliances as possible, as soon as possible, and try to keep them going. In Europe, it's pretty easy to get a host of alliances early on, though maintaining them with expansion is problematic. In the Middle-east, it's not so easy: there's no Neighbors except rivals. And with the Mongols on the way, I can't let the Turks or Egypt sit on their lands and manage them poorly: I'm going to need that money, as either faction. And gifting a few K of florins every now and then goes a loooong way. In my HRE game that I never finished, the Hungarians turned on me after 70ish years of Alliance, but I maintained healthy relations with them for that long, by tributing them every now and then.

Try it sometime. If you keep a high Chiv King, don't start ANY wars, and have around 5 alliances, you can generally salvage atleast 2-3 by the mid-game. Also, don't expand too fast, or everyone will hate you! Also, Avoid taking territory that you ally considers "theirs". This means you can't go expanding into Metz and Dijon as the HRE, for example. The French consider those territories "theirs" and will eventually attempt to reclaim them.

Seriously, try a campaign where you DONT start wars, Maintain a high Chi

edbenedict77

04-25-2011, 01:18

sorry about late posting, but in my present game as h/h hre, my starting marriage alliance with danes, lasted 15~18 turns Only :( they came knocking at frankfurth with a big army heahed by a captain so easily beat them back with 3 start general :) the trick is to attack the "captain's unit and kill/capture him, the rest just routs :D, i'm taking the game quite slow. So far 18 regions at 59th turn, and have been excommunicated Only once for 1 turn when i took rome, with pope defending it :) :) (my "game win" requirement as HRE!) and now trying to get into a marriage allaince with the poles but since i have a common border province they are quite reluctant and my heir is becoming an old bachelor :( i think it's quite hard to get marriage allaince later on in the game, but then again i maybe wrong :)