View Full Version : Desertion from crusades (was "Holy Crusaders Derserting bah!")
LordMorgan
11-16-2006, 22:41
Ok so as the title hints I have accepted a holy crusade to help preserve Christianity and our sexy blonds. Any hoo I quickly secured some ships and moved my men from london to Jerusalem mind you which is the quickest way. I had several units desert on me. Must have been fake christians with no faith I guess. In any case I am now besieging the city of Jerusalem with the majority of my army. However why did I lose the armies I did? I mean I am moving fast as I can here lol. Portugal and Poland are moving in as I besiege as well I hope for an interesting battle. My first holy crusade yay!!!
I also just realized that there are additional forces that can be bought once you land in Jerusalem before you start your siege. Guess you gotta play around with it a bit. I still say they shouldnt have deserted "oh yee of little faith."
I suffered desertion sailing round northern Spain. Was that where it hit you? I figured it was because technically, I was sailing in the opposite direction to the Holy Land. BKS suggested sailing from southern France, which would avoid that problem - provided you are far enough in the campaign for it to be a suitable staging post.
BTW, I'm not sure I am getting the "sexy blonds" reference. Or that I want to. :inquisitive:
Polemists
11-16-2006, 22:48
I have never suffered desertion then again my guy's name was Wolfgang THE CRUSADER hahaha :)
LordMorgan
11-16-2006, 23:16
I suffered desertion sailing round northern Spain. Was that where it hit you? I figured it was because technically, I was sailing in the opposite direction to the Holy Land. BKS suggested sailing from southern France, which would avoid that problem - provided you are far enough in the campaign for it to be a suitable staging post.
BTW, I'm not sure I am getting the "sexy blonds" reference. Or that I want to. :inquisitive:
Ok so I could hopefully get france to give me permission to move my armies to the southern french shore then pick up my ships? hmmm Interesting.
What I did was cut south east towards the Balkans then hired a mercenary fleet and went straight to Jerusalem in 3 turns.
Doug-Thompson
11-16-2006, 23:40
Dumb question: Does the piety of your general affect your Crusade's desertion rate?
i did the southern french way, and asking them for permission, LOL just march through who cares wot they think. i marched my crusade straight through france to the coast near marsielle (sp) bought merc ships, sailed halfway there, landed bought some more merc ships (was worried about rebel pirate fleets) then got back on my boats and went the rest of the way, got there with no troubles, took the holy city which was sadly defended by 1 genearl and 1 unit of saracen militia. and procdeded to build as many religious buildings as i could lol. its up to like 80% catholic now :D and my 16 year old general who started the crusade is now my king with like 8 command 7 chiv, 7 piety :D and i also have the st johns head quaters in the holy city :D :D
Cheers Knoddy
Basileus
11-17-2006, 00:49
Ok so I could hopefully get france to give me permission to move my armies to the southern french shore then pick up my ships? hmmm Interesting.
You don't need permission to pass from Christian factions when you're crusading and you can always buy mercenary ships near any coast usually, so if you don't want to take the land way get to marsellie buy some merc ships and sail towards the holy land. I suggest you don´t add any agents on the crusading army either cause you will lose your extra movement points heh i found that out the hard way.
LordMorgan
11-17-2006, 01:20
What I did was cut south east towards the Balkans then hired a mercenary fleet and went straight to Jerusalem in 3 turns.
HmmI like this way. Sounds very very quick it took me about 12 turns all the way around spain by boat lol. But I made it lol.
You don't need permission to pass from Christian factions when you're crusading and you can always buy mercenary ships near any coast usually, so if you don't want to take the land way get to marsellie buy some merc ships and sail towards the holy land. I suggest you don´t add any agents on the crusading army either cause you will lose your extra movement points heh i found that out the hard way.
the downside of going overland is that if the crusade ends for whatever reason and your army is still in the middle of your neighbor, it'll trash your relations unless you can get them to give military access (or you're already at war). also that whole "oops I ran into another army and lost all my move points" thing.
also you only get 2 mercenary cogs at crusader price, plus 2 at the normal price, and that's not going to cut it against half-stack egyptian carrack fleets if you have the misfortune to run out of movement within range of one.
the best solution would be to have a good-sized fleet waiting in the mediterranean, then send your army overland. no desertions from sailing the "wrong" way and no risk of losing your entire army to the huge enemy fleets, but with the added cost of having a fleet sitting next to Italy the whole game.
Anyone know the difference between how many turns it takes to march from Denmark to Jerusalem compared to sailing there?
If they're on a ship sailing in the ocean, how in the world did they desert, did they jump overboard and just swim for shore? I mean its one thing for men to desert, but its not quite making much sense to do so AFTER you've shoved off.
I had the same thing... I went the spanish route... my conclusion was that I perhaps saled to late that way... and the later you leave.. the more of them desert (whereto on the ocean btw if your fleet keeps ist size, do they swim that well in armor?).
By the time I was in landing distance Antioch was taken by the french, my allies... grrr... so I wait a little till the french army starts to wonder around and steal their city (and imiidiatly sack the castle close to it to be able to make better troops).
the french mad of course... but putting a faew armies on their border made them send their princess in affort to become friends again...
perfect situation.. since I didnt attack egypt my ship can sail & trade there and the french are still my friends :)
oh.. and the pope... he told me to leave the french alone after I sacked antioch.. and I am.. for now *grin*
but darn.. how appealing is paris to have as a city, so central, perfect staging area for more!!
Anyone know the difference between how many turns it takes to march from Denmark to Jerusalem compared to sailing there?
I am currently marching from denmark to Antioch and is taking about 12 turns. What I have learned(the hard way) is that the longer it takes to get there, the better chance for desertion. GO DANES!!
I've had massive desertion problems. Even moving toward the objective with full movement points (Angers to Antioch) I was losing troops each turn. When I'd bump into a d*** rebel or the silly Milanese would block me, I'd lose 300 or so men a turn. I never made it to the target, for Venice got there first. My next crusade was from Angers to Tolouse, and I lost men on the first turn because apparently I didn't lay seige fast enough. Whatever; I lost the seige battle anyway. :laugh4:
I've had massive desertion problems. Even moving toward the objective with full movement points (Angers to Antioch) I was losing troops each turn. When I'd bump into a d*** rebel or the silly Milanese would block me, I'd lose 300 or so men a turn. I never made it to the target, for Venice got there first. My next crusade was from Angers to Tolouse, and I lost men on the first turn because apparently I didn't lay seige fast enough. Whatever; I lost the seige battle anyway. :laugh4:
https://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/Officerpuppy_/medieval22006-11-1600-18-22-00.jpg
My faction leader, Pope....some guy (I've gone through at least 5 popes already)
An update to my campaign, I don't remember what year I am in but gun powder is relatively new. I control Corsica, Sardina, and most of Italy except for Naples and some other town near Florence. My greatest threat is from Millian, they are very untrustworthy and declare war on me every so offten curtailing my ambitions.
Some advantages of being the Papal States:
1)Whenever the pope dies, I just elect a new one from the cardinals.
2)Inqusition......need I say more?
3)Declare crusades on a whim
4)Extra leverage in diplomacy using the reconciliation option
Disavantages:
1)Serious lack of faction leaders, I have at least 2 or 3 left alive and ageing quick with no replacements in sight.
2)The Council still retains some power, when a crusade is made, where etc.
I have been thing about this a bit and maybe this is actually more historically accurate than crusades in MTW. Desertion were common especially on long trips. So far I have noticed desertion is more common with mercenary armies.
Aquitaine
11-17-2006, 19:26
It'd be one thing if you just lost a few to desertion every turn (like in MTW). But it specifically says that the mechanic is that they desert if you don't make enough progress. You'd think sailing around Spain and through Gibraltor would be common enough that they'd have caught it and adjusted their algorithim for 'are you making progress' accordingly.
Bob the Insane
11-17-2006, 19:35
Yeah, measuring progress as to whether you are closer to your target at the end of the turn than the beginning is a bit simplistic...
Though I have not found too many issues with walking from England to Italy and picking up mercenary ships there...
nameless
11-17-2006, 19:42
It's faster if you just run through the balkans and cross the landbridge from the Byzantine Empire into turkish lands, get a ship, and sail the rest of the way.
Why the heck would you go all the way around spain?
Crusader units cannot engage catholic units so they'll leave you alone and your movement points mean they usually won't catch up with you.
The catholic factions may not ATTACK crusading armies, but the zone of control of military units still stops them. Going overland, you have to have spies act as scouts for the army, so they can avoid concentrations of troops. Running into an army WILL stop you, and from what lots of posters have said, that stoppage translates directly into desertion. I'm still playing Byzantium, so I have no direct experience with this, but it looks to me like moving from the north to the south coast of France and sailing from there would be a lot easier than trying to make it through the area of Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy, where Genoa, Milan, and Venice are located). Lots of troops move through there.
I hope one of those guys invented the life preserver and brought enough for all the other deserters.
Zenicetus
11-19-2006, 21:20
the best solution would be to have a good-sized fleet waiting in the mediterranean, then send your army overland. no desertions from sailing the "wrong" way and no risk of losing your entire army to the huge enemy fleets, but with the added cost of having a fleet sitting next to Italy the whole game.
A standing fleet in the Med could also serve a dual purpose of blockade, for crippling the economy of an enemy. I used port blockades a lot in RTW, and I assume it would have the same effect in M2TW.
Zenicetus
11-19-2006, 21:25
The catholic factions may not ATTACK crusading armies, but the zone of control of military units still stops them. Going overland, you have to have spies act as scouts for the army, so they can avoid concentrations of troops. Running into an army WILL stop you, and from what lots of posters have said, that stoppage translates directly into desertion.
I read a post somewhere here that said you can avoid armies blocking you, by drawing out your movement line, watching your army march, and hit Backspace to halt if you see an army that might block you. Draw out the line again (assuming you have movement points left) and the game will compute a new path that avoids the blocking army's zone of control. Haven't tried it myself, just passing on the info. It sounds like you'd want a spy scouting ahead too.
I've had massive desertion problems. Even moving toward the objective with full movement points (Angers to Antioch) I was losing troops each turn.
Um, did anyone watch the Crusade's DVD that came with the game? 60,000 troops left for Jerusalem, about 10,000 made it. Loosing troops on every move due to "desertion" could translate into starvation, heat exhaustion, dehydration, and the fellows who just said F-this, I'm going home.
Although Med 2 could've chosen a better word than "desertion" everytime...
The only problem being that a spy has less movement points than a crusading army :inquisitive:
Ibn Munqidh
11-19-2006, 21:43
:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
After leading a huge crusading english army through the Pyranees, towards my goal of Tunis, once I crossed gibraltar, my entire army deserted, not to mention those who deserted on the way there. This made the pope hate me, put my faction leader in danger, and cost me alot of money, as most of the original units in that army were elite ones, not to mentions those mercs I hired.
How do you keep a crusading army intact?!!!:smash: I must mention that my king had no piety at all:oops:
The Spartan (Returns)
11-19-2006, 21:52
i cant wait to get this game.
You should find this thread usefull :)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72402
The only problem being that a spy has less movement points than a crusading army :inquisitive:
That's true, so what I do is attach the spy to the army. Seems to do the trick. It's handy if he's got some experience to increase his vision range too.
That works? I thought that since technically any attached agents arn't "on crusade" with the army the movement for the entire stack would decrease to the agent's pace rather than the spy getting washed along at crusader speed. But then again, I havn't been on crusade for about fifty turns...
IrishArmenian
11-19-2006, 22:38
i cant wait to get this game.
You and me both, Spart...God's Grace
That works? I thought that since technically any attached agents arn't "on crusade" with the army the movement for the entire stack would decrease to the agent's pace rather than the spy getting washed along at crusader speed. But then again, I havn't been on crusade for about fifty turns...
Technically you should be right. I think whenever you attach agents to an army, regardless of purpose, it will slow the movement per turn down alot. Same goes for foot soldiers vs. mounted. Thats why its always better to send an army of mounted to another city if its being besieged, it'll get there much faster.
Probably does slow 'em down to the spy's speed...can't recall right now...however, it's a lot better going slower than getting stuck in another army's zone of control and having a bunch of units decide you're a slacker and leave.
Get to the Med coast doing that, then chuck them on a ship and away you go...and if you take the spy along for the ride, there's always a chance he might open some gates for you. Unless the Hungarians got there first again o' course.
Goofball
11-20-2006, 17:09
Even though my crusade that started in Denmark makes steady progress towards its destination (Tunis) every turn, troops have been deserting like mad. Last turn over 50% of my troops left. Total pisser.
Anyway, I'm thinking that to prevent this I will move my crusade onto a ship to take them the rest of the way there. I mean, there's no way troops can desert from a ship at sea, is there?
Anybody know if this will work or not?
Bob the Insane
11-20-2006, 17:13
Troops still desert form the boats...
I have been crusading from England by overlanding to italy and then hiring mercenary boats for the rest of the journey and I have had only minial issues with desertion. You just have to be careful with the route the crusdae takes on land to provent the 'Path blocked' instances...
Goofball
11-20-2006, 17:20
Troops still desert form the boats...
:dizzy2:
Well done, game designers. That's about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Oh well, thanks for the answer Bob.
`Sure they camn desert by boats.
Do you really think you can cramp 8000 men on 1 boat?
Its a fleet of ships, and im pretty sure part of the army could desert just by sailing of in a boat
Doug-Thompson
11-20-2006, 17:30
From far-away Denmark or England, I'd put eight units and a general on a boat, sail all the way to the Mediterranean coast of Spain or to Italy. Then I'd step ashore on a Catholic coast, declare Crusade, hire some Crusader units, step back on the boat and go the rest of the way by sea.
Also, do units with only one or two men left count toward the eight-unit limit?
Re: Stupidest thing.
I'm stuck on a boat, have lost my faith in the Crusade, and say to my self, "Self, as soon this boat finds some land, I'm deserting."
You've lost me, even though my rear may still be stuck on the boat for now.
Once as Portugal I joined a Crusade with a full stack army in Tripoly and my army was loosing to desertion 3 units per turn :thumbsdown: I'll never join a Crusade again.
In the old MTW if the Crusade army moves trough a province with high piety it grows and if it moves trough one with low piety it looses troops. Probalby it's simular?
Bob the Insane
11-20-2006, 22:07
You know as a pure abstraction thing, I don;t think that all deserter from the crusades have given up on crusading, they just don't think you are going fast enough and thus leave you behind and head off on their own...
ViolentRebellion
11-20-2006, 23:22
Though I'm new to the Total War series, I've found the best way to prevent desertion in my Crusading armies, is by asking the Pope to declare a crusade before he does by himself.
Usually by about turn 20 or 30 there will be a faction excommunicated.
Before you ask, build up your relationship with the Pope with bribes (gifts) or building lots of Priests and killing heretics/witches or converting a non Catholic area.
Then have the Pope declare a crusade on one of the Excommunicated factions on the continent. It will be much faster to get there thus less desertion.
On my new H/H English campaign that I started today, I used that tactic to take Angers from France and will use it to take Paris next available option to ask for a Crusade.
Provoke other nations to attack you and get exommunicated, than ask for a crusade against them. Its the best way to win the Crusade, increase your standing with the papacy and prevent desertion.
Doug-Thompson
11-20-2006, 23:31
Good catch, ViolentRebellion.
This need to be checked out and confirme, if true.
BTW, I haven't had any desertion problems in my limited experience with Jihads.
GeneralAsh
11-21-2006, 13:47
I have been crusading from England by overlanding to italy and then hiring mercenary boats for the rest of the journey and I have had only minial issues with desertion. You just have to be careful with the route the crusdae takes on land to provent the 'Path blocked' instances...
I sailed from Southern France and never had a problem with desertion. The problem with sailing from Italy (in my game anyway) is that you risk getting your General killed by an Inquisitor.
However, once I had taken Jerusalem, I launched all my future crusades to the Holy Lands from there.
From far-away Denmark or England, I'd put eight units and a general on a boat, sail all the way to the Mediterranean coast of Spain or to Italy. Then I'd step ashore on a Catholic coast, declare Crusade, hire some Crusader units, step back on the boat and go the rest of the way by sea.
I play as Denmark and I find joining the crusade when in your homeland and then simply marching to the target takes less time than going there by boat when not on crusade. I think the crusading army is given a significant boost to its movement speed...
Since I marched the entire way from Denmark to Jerusalem I don't know if this bonus also applies to ships. If it is you might be better off by marching down to Constantinople and taking a marc ship from there.
Doug-Thompson
11-21-2006, 17:31
I play as Denmark and I find joining the crusade when in your homeland and then simply marching to the target takes less time than going there by boat when not on crusade. I think the crusading army is given a significant boost to its movement speed...
Since I marched the entire way from Denmark to Jerusalem I don't know if this bonus also applies to ships. If it is you might be better off by marching down to Constantinople and taking a marc ship from there.
Playing as the Egyptians last night, I had a Polish crusade march on me from Armenia. Obviously, they must have crossed the Black Sea by ship.
Sending a Danish Fleet to the Black Sea, perhaps with an army to capture a province in the area, might not be a bad idea.
MrWhipple
11-21-2006, 17:33
I have only fought 2 crusades so far and I love them! They were 2 different campagians as English and went by sea all the way. The first was led by a faction heir with a ton of piety and the second was with a snot nosed kid just out of nappies. The first was a rousing success and the second went to heck (where you go if you don't believe in Gosh) in a big hurry with most of the troops bailing on me before we rounded Spain. So my guess is that leadership has a lot to do with the whole formula.
In period times dersetion from a crusade was a fact of life. Some crusades never even got off the ground and just fizzled when they hit the first snag. like every thing else in the game, one man's bug is annother man's feature.
VAE VICTUS
11-23-2006, 08:00
as the english, the bleeddin pope tells me to join this crusade or its purgatory and excommunication for ye, so i does it, makes me army, at edinburgh(how is that spelled?) then hires some merc ships and heads for the mainlad, and i am promptly attacked by bloomin pirates and lose my whole fleet and my crusader army...the next turn the pope pleased with my piety gives me 1000$....saved me some trouble and the army sucked anyway...will that work everytime?
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