Rate the game: the initial verdict of Orgahs [Archive]

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econ21

11-17-2006, 14:55

Marks out of ten, please. Only vote if you own the full game - I don't want this to be based on the demo or second hand impressions.

I know it's very early days, so the poll will close in a week and maybe we will revisit this question in a month or two.

Summary comments welcome too, although no CA bashing please - imagine folk were rating your own work and be polite.

Edit:: I've just been reminded that juniors can't vote. If they post their rating here, I'll edit the results when the poll closes to include them.

I am not going to voice my own opinion at this stage or Screwtype will bite my head off. :croc:

Whacker

11-17-2006, 14:58

Spendius

11-17-2006, 15:22

7 for me too. The major RTW issue, the AI, has not really been improved, but the rest is all good to me: graphics, the pope, faction and their units...

Faenaris

11-17-2006, 15:32

I gave it an 8. There are some little issues to be dealt with, but on the whole, I'm loving it!

EDIT:

Examples of little issues:

- In custom battles, when you buy two Venetian Heavy Infantry unit and you upgrade one of them, there is a reversal in the battle itself. My un-upgraded unit had "plate armour" while the other one appeared to have "heavy mail". I haven't noticed much difference between the two units, I'll go check it out once I boot M2TW again.

- Why do you need a Mason HQ (level 3, 1 per world) guild in order to train Russian Berdiche Axemen? If a CPU manages to get it first, I can't train those nasty shock troops at all. Unless I missed something in the recruiting tree.

- Charges are not consistent: sometimes I can do a fantastic charge and at other times, my units just walk over to the enemy and stab them. The circumstances were the same in both battles.

- Having perfect relationships with a faction after giving some money (went from good to excellent) and being attacked the very next turn is a bit annoying. It is a random "glitch", but I had it happen a couple of times and with different factions.

- Forcing an enemy to become your vasal is still a bit too hard to accomplish (Down to one city and after being beaten a couple of times in a row, they are willing to accept a ceasefire, but not to become my vasal. Maybe they're just stubborn)

- Dismounting knights should have been in the game. It probably won't get added in a patch, but I can dream, ja? ~:)

- Assassins are a bit underpowered and aren't worth the investment. It takes a long time to get them to a decent level and you can then lose them on a easy target. Random numbers, aye, but I have never gotten an assassin past 5 stars. And those inquisitors are nasty. Also, it is kinda annoying to lose experience because of one failed mission.

- Inquisitors are killing machines. Low piety characters get the axe REAL fast and having an Inquisitor near your gate is scary. Maybe this is a feature, but if it isn't, a bit toning down would be nice.

- In-accurate traits and triggers system. It's like being a "good farmer" and a "bad farmer" at the same time. I don't know the specific traits from the top of my head, but it would be nice to see traits cancel eachother out.

- Weird lag in sieges. Most have reported it happend because a lot of CPU units want to climb the same ladder. I had it happen when my men were doing the sieging and they were on the ground, withdrawing from the field.

There were a couple more, but my notes are a bloody mess. ~:) Now, these are just minor points to me. If CA doesn't fix them, no biggy for me. If they do fix them, the game gets a 10 from me and my assured devotion to CA for years to come!

TB666

11-17-2006, 15:33

10 out of 10
The more I play the better the game gets:2thumbsup: .
Good AI(when the passive bug doesn't appear), smooth performance, excellent graphics and awesome battles.

Dutch_guy

11-17-2006, 15:39

Did not vote yet, as I've only just got the game and am busy playing my first campaign.

However, if it's not too much of a problem please also include examples of ''missing features'', ''annoying bugs'' and ''other little details which are missing''. Doesn't need to be a page long list, and we can't force you to do so, but it is a good point of reference.

:balloon2:

Arbaces

11-17-2006, 15:43

4...

Darth Nihilus

11-17-2006, 15:46

I gave it a 10 out of 10. There are a few bugs, but nothing that a patch can't fix. I'm caught off gaurd on how the diplomacy actually works good in this TW game. Its very nice.

Whacker

11-17-2006, 15:46

However, if it's not too much of a problem please also include examples of ''missing features'', ''annoying bugs'' and ''other little details which are missing''. Doesn't need to be a page long list, and we can't force you to do so, but it is a good point of reference.

Per Mr. dutch-type-person-guy's request, I submit the link to my write-up as my list of examples: :book:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72319

I had played the game for about ... 6-8 hours at that point and wrote that over the course of playing, so some of my opinions and whatnaught did change as time passed.

Cheers!

Garnier

11-17-2006, 15:49

Lusted

11-17-2006, 15:51

(they never said when)

They did, the first patch is going to come out in about 2 weeks, it was delayed so more fixes could be included in it.

Sir Robin

11-17-2006, 16:21

8 out of 10

There are some issue but, overall, I have been very pleased with it. Somethings, like no Titles, have been a bit disappointing but most, like retrainable mercenaries, has really been a treat.

Will go to a 9 out of 10 if the patch fixes many of the bugs and does not introduce new ones.:juggle2:

danfda

11-17-2006, 16:47

I'd like to have gone 7.5, but I couldn't, so it was a 7. Very fun, much better AI (camp map and battle, IMO), beautiful graphics, runs very smoothly on my machine. I still have quibbles about some small things (lack of titles, reaction time for units when they take so goshdarn long to respond to your commands, etc) but overall I think it is a vast improvement over Rome. Still prefer the original MTW, but I like this one too. :2thumbsup:

EDIT: Ooh, and the lack of unit roster diversity too. Ugh. I can't see why it had to change so much from MTW, but ugh, just ugh.

chunkynut

11-17-2006, 16:48

9/10

I love it as I have every other TW game, I find them far superior to other strategy games.

The improvements are fantastic, diplomacy - although difficult - is much improved.

My only gripe is what I had with MTW and RTW that patching will be a slow and painful process and shouldn't be necessary with adequate testing. Anyone remember the units you could get in MTW (like crossbows) when they weren't supposed to appear at the start of the campaign.

If I were to think about a multiplayer campaign then the score may go down but as yet they have never said they would implement one so this is the game.

IRONxMortlock

11-17-2006, 17:03

7 out of 10. :2cents: Generally I consider myself to be generally forgiving when it comes to this, but it's simply got too many bugs and missing features at this point can't can't be ignored or overlooked.

I only received the game last night and I haven't progressed far but I agree with the above statement. 7/10 thus far.

Akka

11-17-2006, 17:27

7/10 too.

Could be much better, but there is some points that really put me off :

- Battles are lethargic. Due to huge spacing, weak charges and small units, they aren't of epic scale and they seem to be half-hearted fought. It really brings down the game for me. Units also seems to be made out of paper, they die so easily...

- Unit roster seems just bland. I much prefered the unit diversity of MTW1. Some parts are better in MTW2 (Byzantine with lots of cavalry, yeah), but the generic "militia" everyone get is quite boring after a while.

- The whole adoption rampage. We should be able to recruit plenty of GENERALS, not adopt everyone and their neighbour in the family. It really seems quite absurd, especially in medieval times where blood ties were much stronger.

- As a side-note, the voice acting for pre-battle speech is ugly. The general speak softly in a low voice, while he's supposed to encourage all his men on a whole battlefield...
The roman speaker in RTW was much more convincing.

- Much "fluff" from MTW1 is absent (units descriptions are illustrated with an ugly 3D model rather than the beautiful and immersive drawings ; you can no longer assassinate your own characters ; no early/middle/late eras to start with).

Aside that, the graphics are top-notch, the music is excellent, THERE IS FINALLY THE RETURN OF THE SPECIAL MOVIES YEAH !, the limitation on recruiting is a nice idea, the castle/city difference is interesting, the whole Pope is much better done, the "missions" adds to the background.

Plenty of good things, but some of the ugly flaws really have to be patched to make the game enjoyable.

Faenaris

11-17-2006, 17:44

magnum

11-17-2006, 17:48

Picked 9. Wish I could have picked a 9-. =)

In another post of mine I called it a B+ for the current release. Hopefully any patches will take it up to A- or even A ( a true 9.)

Djurre

11-17-2006, 17:51

Zatoichi

11-17-2006, 18:09

Well I'm happy with it so far. Yes there are some niggles, but I've had more fun in the first week with this game than I did with RTW. It's still early, and I'm keen to see what the patch addresses in a couple of weeks, but I'll go for a 9/10 so far.

Some of the issues that people are having don't seem to be impacting my current campaign too greatly, and I can overlook them and enjoy all the goodies and great atmosphere that CA have brought to this game.

Whacker

11-17-2006, 18:38

The cavalry issue makes it rather unplayable to me. With the enemy cavalry being tanks, and mine being babys, every battle comes down to trowing in everything youve got. and waiting for the win.

that sucks. ill vote after they patch it. in 5 weeks or so ;)

[Rant mode on]

OK, I'll start off by saying I'm not picking on you specifically Djurre, but I am going to use your post as an example to make a strong point. :grin:

Folks, PLEASE vote at this point in time! The community and most importantly CA *must* hear your opinions on this game as it stands right now!

The reason I state this is because of a very very big problem with the gaming industry right now, which is releasing beta/non-gold quality software to the public under the guise of "we'll patch it later." I can remember back in the day, when doing things like this was considered shameful as opposed to the status quo, and fans/gamers would give the publishing houses that did this unholy hell for doing so, and it actually affecting their sales by doing so! Please note that this is my now-firm assessment of this game, it was rushed out the door and in it's current state, is simply not what should be considered "gold" or "release" quality code. Also, I certainly do not blame the developers for this, this problem is usually driven by upper management. Further to add to my case, there are those of us who personally know game/QA testers. From my experience, these people are very bright and thorough, so the odds are that a bug slipped past them is slim to none, the most likely scenario is that the game was knowingly shipped with them. This is, unfortunately, becoming an industry standard.

Not voting and judging the game *now* is completely unfair to yourselves (your opinions must be heard, even if it is very low!), your fellow gamers, and to the businesses that we are giving our money to in exchange for a complete product. Don't sell yourselves short. I firmly believe that it is possible to offer firm criticisim in a professional and constructive manner, whilst still getting across a strong message and not "bashing" the company in general. "Bashing" is one thing, letting them have it for giving you a product that doesn't meet your expectations is another!

An example I will give is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for the PC. When this game shipped, it was garbage, the game breaking bugs were so numerous that it was near impossible to play. It took Bioware and LA several months to fix it, but with the 1.03 patch the game truly became what it should have been to begin with, and was finally worthy of the honors, awards, and accolades heaped on it. The point being, it shouldn't have been released that way.

Please vote now and let your opinions be heard!

[Rant mode /off]

osb0t

11-17-2006, 18:38

5 of 10

As of yet at least. Reasons:
No battle AI, bad campaign AI, ridiculously demanding on my pc(which I thought would run it ok on medium... but nope. sparse unit rosters, horrible pathfinding, strange un-epic battles, unbalanced, few to no open field battles, big castles lag and you don't really fight in most places, same as RTW: bash the gate, rush for square, end.

I have not noticed any of this.

The battle AI has been fine with the exception of the passive AI which is caused by fielding masses of archers. The campaign AI is far better than Romes, the only issue I have seen is lightly defended castles, I believe this is caused by the AI putting too much value into the defenses of the castle. The performance has been amazing for me it runs better than RTW, I do have a fairly hefty computer but knocking the game because your system isn't up to snuff really is silly.

I have experienced no serious pathfinding problems, the battles have been epic when massive armies clash. The balance seems spot on to me.

If you are experiencing no open field battles, I kindly suggest you seek them out. The objective of an AI army is to capture a city, you can choose to allow them to siege and assault, or you can choose to meet them in the field. If you always sit inside your walls then obviously you will not find any open field battles. I have had on several occasions had large stacks surround a sieging army and then have the defenders sally forth.

Huge cities lag for me, this is simply due to the size of the cities and all the stuff that needs to be rendered.

Siege assaults are always a huge fight if the enemy has garrisoned the town. They fight you on the walls. They retreat to the next ring of defences and fight there, and then they retreat to the center of town and fight at the town square, this is assuming you successfully take each section of the castle.

I have found the AI to be much more capable both on the attack and on the defence. Once the passive AI bug is fixed I dare say that many people will be getting their asses handed to them because the sloppy battle AI of the past 3 games is not even close to as intelligent as it is in this game.

Finally I would like to mention something that I heard mentioned in another post, it has to do with game performance and AI. Someone suggested that the AI calculations in the game are sacrificed to give playable framerate. In all the threads I have read in which someone states the AI is non-existant or terrible, they also complain about the performance of the game. Alternately, in all the posts in which people are praising the AI the game runs flawlessly on their machines. I don't know if this is the cause of this apparent lack of AI, it is however a substaintial coincidence in either way.

Deathboy

11-17-2006, 19:09

7/10 for a TW game 12/10 by normal standards.

Only 7/10 for a TW game, because I haven't been completely swept away by the evolution from RTW as I was from MTW - RTW also the bugs everyone keeps mentioning are annoying, the 1 turn to 2 years annoyed me and although it is moddable (and I have) it means that the game is mis-paced, lastly I am annoyed that in order to get a campaign map I have to spend another £15 on a collectors eddition, when this should be standard.

Although it might not sound it but I am generally very happy with the game, and with a little more thought CA could have fixed most of this and made it a 9/10.

Darkmoor_Dragon

11-17-2006, 19:21

6 out of 10

Whilst this is potentially the best Total War game too date it has to be said that the state of the code upon release is very poor.

Given the new backers behind CA for the series and the pre-game hype, it is, once again, very disappointing to find that numerous bugs and balance issues have been allowed through into the initial release that really should not have been allowed and are immediately obvious - all to the effect of detracting from the game from one degree to another, culminating in potentially game-stopping features.

Game documentation is also very poor and I personally feel that the fans and buyers of the game have been left to hang out whilst CA take their time with a patch, parts of which are urgent enough to have required a Day1 patch.

Familiar territory perhaps, but even so - a truly great game waits in potential form on my PC whilst I return to play NWN2 instead.

Until that patch, AND assuming that patch fixes a horde of issues, 6 is all it deserves AT THIS POINT IN TIME and in its CURRENT state.

Potentially though? 9+

PS

I am also bitterly, bitterly, disappointed that Suicide Generals have been removed from the game. This regular feature of all previous games and expansions was a constant joy to harangue CA over and its absence is a blow to all those who wish to berate CA for making all the same mistakes over and over again. Will they never learn?!!! :laugh4: :charge:

PPS - The "No reinforcements as your CPU is crap" is probably the most badly conceived idea I've ever witnessed in a PC game.
It that can not be turned off, or coded out, then score it as 0/10. Seriously, it's THAT bad an idea.

IceTorque

11-17-2006, 19:46

9/10

Gameplay, is fun, challenging and so immersive.
Music, Is outstanding.
Graphics, Simply amazing.
System requirments I still find it hard to believe it runs so smooth on a 4 year old PC.
AI-Battle map, Much improved, and still being tweaked. Getting surprised by the AI hiding units in the trees just never gets old.
AI-Strat map Much improved.
Support Patch already on the way, does'nt seem to be any one patch rule as was the case with previous publishers, thank you Sega.
Multiplayer/Australia Just too much lag, even for a 1v1 game.
General comments Love the way the units move on the battle map, it just looks so realistic. Absolutely love the siege battles now, the big Citadels are very challenging and above all are Fun.

Criticisms, Apart from some minor issues that are already being addressed in the first patch, I have one very big complaint, and that is. This game is too addictive, I can't stop playing. :2thumbsup:

Polemists

11-17-2006, 19:57

I gave it a nine like most people I mean I just love this game so much. The battles are better, I can't count the number of epic battles I've had. Thousand men against a thousand last chance to hold the frontier against other powers. Now sure the AI sometimes still doesn't orchasterate a perfect attack plan, but I think it's far better then rome. I've had ai try counter charges, flanks, encirclement, even bait and lure one time.

Yea inquisitors are a little annoying and having your own pope dosn't seem to quite offer the power I thought it should. I mean early on it's great, like when he sent his army to help me. However second time I got my guy to pope he kept forcing me to go on crusades and hating me lol. Though this may be just because it's later game.

Diplomacy is far better, people finally offer ceasefires and alliances,and it's nice to have princess option when you have a faction hier and new emperor pop up quick.

This game could have been better, anything can be better,but this game rocks in my view, great battles, great campaign, new features, even a new faction in campaign not from mtw(if you dont' know who this is I won't spoil it). Lots of good stuff in here :)

I love assassins, soley for movies, the failed snake movie is classic :)

FesterShinetop

11-17-2006, 21:15

BIG 9 out of 10. Best TW game yet and if they put out some good patches it will be very close to a 10!
:2thumbsup:

econ21

11-18-2006, 01:58

OK, I hope it's safe to post an opinion without being accused of skewing the poll. I gave it a 9/10. Best TW game out of the box, IMO.

I'm on turn 70 of an English VH/VH campaign and it's really retaining my interest. I'm the most powerful faction but still have not yet reached the "tipping point" you get to so easily in some of the early TW games. The strategic maneouvring feels very like MTW. I have a full stack on a bridge outside Hamburg, but the Danes have parked two stacks next to their fortress. Neither of us wants to attack (I rashly attacked once before, in a similar situation, and it was mutual assured destruction).

All across my frontier, there is a nice tension between trying to push on and trying to protect what I have, all amplified by Papal missions to cease and desist. The economy is also tight - it's a rare turn I can keep each settlement building.

I was starting to feel the battles might be getting easy, then I lost Metz and my King a turn or two ago. With equal odds - and providing I can't just shoot it to death - the AI often inflicts heavy losses on me. Typically a couple of even fights and I'm looking for a second army.

I am especially pleased that the Pope now likes me, after I paid him 7000 florins. I really want to get a crusade off (although I am preparing Rhodes to be a staging post). I guess diplomacy may still work at VH, but you just have to work hard at it.

Ironically, the stuff I am not that keen on is the chrome - the music, the voice overs, the gluey "feel" of the combat (the unit cohesion bug thing), even the graphics don't grab me as much as some of RTWs mods. In this it reminds me again of MTW - forget the superficial stuff, appreciate the gameplay.

Dooz

11-18-2006, 02:54

Gave it an 8/10. Great game, but a few bugs and other minor problems keep it from being a 9 or 10. However, I think with a few appropriate patches and other upgrades here and there, it'll easily be a 9. And dear sweet lord, I can't wait to see mods pop up for this one. It will literally be a whole new world. Just imagining EB2 or even medieval realism mods in the vein of EB or RTR, makes my mind explode with anticipation.

littlebktruck

11-18-2006, 08:39

I think I'll give it an 8. The fact that cavalry are so finicky is a big problem for me, but otherwise I don't have any serious complaints. Hopefully that will be fixed soon.

I find the decision to make troop recruitment independent of population somewhat curious, but I like it in a "makes my job easier" sort of way (I've never been particularly good at total war games to begin with).

PseRamesses

11-19-2006, 12:48

Gave it an 8 but I´ve never felt this ambiguous. Love the graphics, the battlefields and the cities are great! But this feels more like an extension of BI than something completely new. Battlewise I see no real improvement from RTW which is really dissapointing. They simply took the RTW engine and re-dressed it. Well, just have to wait for the next title and see if a real leap in the games development occurs.

Daveybaby

11-19-2006, 13:28

Gave it 8 cos its miles better than RTW - would be a 9 if it wasnt for the bugs and minor missing features (which will hopefully all get fixed eventually) and would be an easy 10 if they'd included stuff like naval battles and MP campaigns.

TinCow

11-20-2006, 13:19

9 due to only minor bugs (the worst we have is the passive AI, and that can be avoided manually). Best OOB TW game.

econ21

11-20-2006, 13:34

...minor bugs (the worst we have is the passive AI, and that can be avoided manually).

What do you recommend doing to avoid the bug? Playing England, I am reluctant to foreswear shooting the AI to death as with the longbows that's kind of England's thing. But is there something short of that which can be done?

OmarPacha

11-20-2006, 16:05

The game is not worth more than 6, some things really give the impression it has been
released in hurry just to meet the 2006 budget needs.

First of all, Agents:
- Inquisitors are too powerful and must not burn 2-3 kings a game. This is of no
historical truth and even, sometimes it makes to laugh.

- Merchants are useless; they lose always their activity after just 1 round as an AI merchant approaches them.

- Assassins kill ratio is too low on basic targets (approximately around 23%) really
low especially if compared to MTWVI chance to kill, if I correctly remember about 76%.

- Movements on strategic map are to be reviewed, a priest that blocks an army's path
sincerely is unbelievable (I may believe of a fascinating princess).

And then, many things in castle assaults may be fixed, such as attacking units coming up the walls when door is open or waiting there with defender units are far in the city core.

I completely agree that some games are published while just thinking of the first patch.

Greetings

Doug-Thompson

11-20-2006, 16:36

At least a 9 so far. I'll vote after completeing a grand campaign. Work and family life are powerful distractions.

Kagemusha

11-20-2006, 23:40

Kage is giving 9 out of 10.
I have played the games from the release of STW and i think that M2TW has something that quite wasnt there specially in Bi, atmosphere. I love how the game looks like and little things like battlefield weather give a lot to the atmosphere. Last night in my HRE campaign i danced around an army of three reb units with my single generals unit on hilly terrain on complete fog. Charging out from the fog and vanishing in there again until they were all running to their mothers. Today i played a custom battle between HRE and Spanish with late units in thunderstorm. The artillery fire and arquebus barrages on advancing tercios was awesome with thunder and lighting above my rain soaken germans. The units look great and most of them realistic. The cities,castles and the battlefields are just plain beutifull. The AI is not as bad as it was in RTW/BI,but ofcourse its not up to against an human player unless it outnumbers me significantly. There are still many bugs and fine tuning but i hope some will be fixed on the patch. To be honest i bought the game in order to mod it,but now i have been playing the vanilla version with on big smile on my face. Im satisfied.:bow:

Doug-Thompson

11-21-2006, 16:58

I gave this puppy a 10.

Is it perfect? No. Is it the best historical strategy game on the market, in any format? Absolutely. Is it a vast improvement over RTW in every regard? Absolutely.

Were our complaints and requests taken seriously and addressed? Absolutely.

Did CA turn away from fantasy and drop laughably stupid units like Egyptian chariots in Roman times and bare-breasted warrior witch women who shriek while their hair's on fire? Yes, Yes YES, thank the mighty gods of computer simulation, yes. Bull warriors and such nonsense have disappeared, an absolute triumph in the fight for plausible historical seriousness and not having your game spoiled by obvious, ludicrous fantasy elements.

The tactical combat is not up to the realism and detail of such hard-core sims as Combat Operations, for instance, but it's far, far better than RTW. Movement and kill rates now make generalship in these battles mean something.

Last night, I made a mistake in a battle and the AI quickly and appropriately punished me for it. That was refreshing. I'd left my general's unit alone, something I commonly did on RTW, and the enemy's crusader knights lunged for him. It was too massive an assault to be random. I had to fight hard and won the battle, but lost my general. I also had time, though not much, to do something.

This game is head and shoulders above RTW, it's only competitor at this level of history-based gameplay.

De Montfort

11-21-2006, 17:05

I'm not allowed to vote in this due to my lowly forum status - but I have been playing Total War since Shogun was released and I rate it as a 9.

Sure there are some gameplay issues that could be improved, but the amount of enjoyment I've had out of the game in the first week and a half makes it worth a 9 even when there is room for improvement.

I did prefer the old style campaign map (the one in M:TW) as I felt it had a better atmosphere and the slightly gamey presentation of the new one doesn't really fit with the gritty attempt at realism in the battles themselves. But it's not an enjoyment wrecker, just a matter of preference.

Got my money's worth already - what more can I ask for (well, ok a patch or two would be nice).

Spino

11-21-2006, 19:48

In its current state I give MTW2 a 7.5 out of 10 which, by my standards, is very good.

Pros:

- Immersion - MTW2 scores huge on the immersion scale. The ambience/immersion factor that was sorely missing from RTW is back with a vengeance. Absolutely love the plethora of audio cues and the long overdue reintroduction of video cutscenes to the TW series.

- Tactical AI - After playing a number of custom battles where missile troops were minimized or equalized in order to prevent the passive AI bug from ruining the experience it is painfully obvious that the tactical AI has been drastically improved over previous TW titles. I was extremely pleased that I had to throw the bad habits I developed from RTW:BI's battles out the window. I was astounded to see the AI handle its cavalry and missile units so effectively! I really can't wait for the upcoming patch to fix the passive AI bug.

- Strategic AI - Still needs work but overall it is much more sensible than RTW:BI. Greater consolidation of AI armies on the campaign map and I haven't spotted those pitifully understrength family member led armies roaming the countryside. Now unless I'm suffering from delusions the AI seems to be more effective at utilizing strategic chokepoints and other defensive terrain to its advantage. More often than not I have noticed hostile/neutral AI armies backing out of range when my superior strength armies were in the area. Noticed a French army opt to sit on a bridgehead near a Portuguese citadel for several turns rather than risk combat with a nearby Portuguese army that would have certainly defeated it in open terrain (yes, France and Portugal were at war at the time).

- Missions - Excellent implementation and I love the fact that you can get missions from a variety of organizations. I also love the variety of awards. Far superior to the Senate mission system in RTW.

- Popely Potpourri - Love the Pope, College of Cardinals, Crusades and all the religious & political intrigue that goes along with it. Really well done.

- Sensible AI generals - No more suicidal general charges! Hurray!

- System Performance - Even on my creaky Athlon XP 2400+/Radeon 9800 Pro/1gig RAM/120gig 7200rpm HD system MTW2 runs surprisingly well. Sure I had to turn stuff down but not nearly as much as I thought I would (the demo ran like frozen crap compared to the release version).

Cons:

- Passive AI bug - I am currently playing a campaign as the English and thanks to this bug I've won numerous battles and sieges where I should have had a much more difficult time. Unfortunately thanks to this bug I no longer have the motivation to continue my English campaign until the patch comes out.

- Strategic AI silliness - The strategic AI is far superior to that in RTW:BI but it's still a bit dodgy. I still see the AI sending understrength armies to besiege my cities loaded with superior numbers of troops. On the other hand I haven't seen a single AI army dumb enough to take on an overwhelmingly superior army in open combat... WTF? What's worse is the barbarian horde AI seems to be totally fudged because since the Mongols have appeared they've done jack squat. My memory is a bit hazy right now but I don't think the Mongols have managed to take a single province in the 30-40 turns since they appeared.

- Peasants - The old AI Peasant spamming from MTW is back! Not nearly as bad as it once was but it's still disappointing to see the AI blow cash on these units when it could be purchasing more useful units instead.

- Piety - The appalling low Piety levels (and lack of improvement in Piety) for family members, even those in cities with advanced religious buildings and Theologian Guilds, leads me to believe the Traits system is a bit broken. If it were working properly people wouldn't be so angry over the Inquisitor issue.

- View Settlement Option - This option is curiously absent from MTW2. Considering how much effort was put into MTW2's graphics I really want this option back. I really want to see some of my larger cities and castles in all their 3D glory.

- Muslim 'dullards' - The Moors and Egypt seem to get the short end of the stick in terms of being 'fleshed out'. The Moors with their bland unit roster seem to suffer the most. I think the Almohad faction from MTW was more interesting than the Moors in MTW2.

The great thing about MTW2 is aside from the nasty Passive AI bug it is extremely solid. Comparatively speaking RTW was in virtual shambles when it was released. Should the upcoming patch effectively address the passive AI bug as well as other obvious issues I will gladly bump my score up to an 8.5 or possibly 9.

MTW2 is shaping up to be the best TW title in the series. One thing for sure is that MTW2 has set the bar awfully high for the next TW title.

maestro

11-21-2006, 21:15

I'd love to give it a 10 - it has sooo much promise. A few balance issues like uncontrolable inquisitors and the Ai still not being entirely sensible on the campaign and the horrendous, embarrasingly poor (as in, the worst ever in a TW series) unit cohesion (!) mean it gets an 8 from me ~:)

Marquis of Roland

11-21-2006, 23:04

8.

Sounds like everyone agrees more or less the pros and cons so far, so I won't get into that.

As far as the effectiveness of AI, the tactics the human player uses often exposes how good/bad the AI is. If your tactics present the AI with an opportunity, it can do some pretty good things. An example from one of my friend's battle: open field in middle, flanked by a U-shaped forest on the border, he sets up battle line in open field, with cav on flanks like normal. AI sends main line to engage center, while sending some spear units through the U-shaped forest, they pop out of woods and wipe out cav while player is occupied with the frontal attack. As a result, AI ended up with 3 or 4 units behind the main battle line, and lots of casualties ensued :skull: .

Kekvit Irae

11-21-2006, 23:30

I originally voted 7, but now that I've played it over, I wish I had voted 5. It's just a lackluster RTW with horrendous video requirements. Sorry, I'll stick to RTW if I wanted to play RTW.

Grimmy

11-22-2006, 02:46

I voted 8/10. It's another TW game and much like the previous TW games it's got depth and re-playability so no worry about the bang for buck angle from my perspective. That's always worth at least a baseline 5/10 rate. The baseline includes the graphics, general game concept.

I like the new angle on working to take and hold the Pope spot to make life easier. That's a +1/10.

Adding in traders and "trade war" aspects is another +1/10.

The new recruiting system is something I'm still getting used to. I'm the kind of player that habitually keeps as many stacks of soldiers on hand as I can afford, just in case. This new recruit system means I can start working on weaning myself off that and I'm enjoying that so far. +1/10

The bugs and glitches are to be expected. Games are getting so complex that the idea of a bug free release is gone the way of the dodo but I have faith and confidence that the CA folk will address and fix them and what they dont find and fix, the game community will so +/-0 on that.

The AI and sea battles I've lumped into a -1/10. Those were design decisions so I feel it fair to give em a neg tic on that. It may well be a decision that added many new players to their buyer base at the expense of some of the more hard core players and sometimes those decisions just have to be made. It aint a game killer for me, since I'm no where near a hard core so I only hit em for one point on that.

The unit roster is a bit sparse and there seems to be a few of the nearly same units (weapon, stats, special abilities on the early level English spears, for example) with different names and slightly different looking unit cards. That would be a hit for another point off the top but the mod community will fix that so it's a point that can be picked up later.

So my end score is 8/10 with a possible 9/10 later. The one lost point is due to AI and sea battle design decisions.

Wishazu

11-22-2006, 03:58

Well what can I say :) 8/10 I`m very impressed with M2 bar a few little things which after looking through the buglist on here most of them seem to be covered already and will hopefully be addressed in the first patch :)

Im playing my first campaign as the English on VH/VH and I`m addicted(Its very annoying for my girlfriend) For a while I thought I was going to be defeated, something that never happened to me on RTW vanilla. Anyways Ive pulled through the hard times and I`m racing to get the 30 more provinces I need before the time is up.

My biggest gripe with the game is the 200 or so turns to complete it. Is there any way to change this? as I do constantly feel like I`m racing against the clock rather than sitting back and watching my empire slowly grow untill it covers the face of the Earth.

AussieGiant

11-22-2006, 07:42

In my opinion game developers are being forced by publishers to use the "Community" are part of the QA process.

Bad idea!!

The game gets a solid 7, and with the free QA processing from us, will raise it up to 8 or 8.5 depending on how good our work is and how good CA can impliment the patches.

Everyone should take heed of Whackers comments. This could come back to bite "US" in the rear.

Sadly this is CA's "best out of the box" version to date, barring STW.

You know how the misbehaving pupil in class acts up for months.

Then the pupil suddenly behaves and has praise heaped on them by the teacher while you sit around doing the right thing and are lost in the crowd.

THAT is what everyone needs to make sure doesn't happen.

CA has done a great job. They have obviously handled their Publisher better and have learnt a great deal since the activision days.

But, be wary of blowing sunshine too far up too many places. Don't play down to the level of the competition. Keep your standards high, demand them of yourselves AND others!!

Good job CA.

The future looks better after the near "Titanic" sinking Rome produced. M2TW was a critical "next step" and you sank the 10 foot putt. I'm looking forward to the 18 footer already :shakehands:

sapi

11-22-2006, 08:12

It's a good game and only the die-hard fans think it's 'bad'. In all seriousness i suggest they return to playing hl, cs and pong ;)

Lehesu

11-24-2006, 01:36

edit

Yun Dog

11-24-2006, 08:50

I dont give 10s...ever

so its 9.5 from me

For all the guys that have tirelessly explored all rpoblems they can find in the game... you have my pity

your denying yourselves that woderful honeymoon period when you first get a game and its sooooo cool... particularly this game... which is beautiful

any issues (which I am happily yet to discover and have no intention of reading posts/threads exposing them) I them regard as minor - as long as I can play the game and enjoy it

for those concerned about the state of the game releases and bugs - feel fortunate you didnt buy Ceasar iv - goto to be the worst game release EVER

Gump

11-24-2006, 23:04

I give it an 7.5 now, but after they patch a few little problems I would give it a 9 :)

econ21

11-25-2006, 00:17

OK, poll closed - I added in the votes of the junior members who expressed a rating (interestingly, they were less enamoured than the members).

Overall, it seems a favourable rating from Orgahs - mainly 9s and 8s, and by my standard an 8 is still a good game.

It will be interesting to see how it stands up over a longer period. I am hoping the patch(es) will make it even more highly rated.