View Full Version : Am I the only one finding the battles boooooooring?
Kadagar_AV
11-18-2006, 00:34
I used to be the type of player who could play custom battles forever... I did so in shogun, medieval and rome.
Now though, in medieval 2, I find it sooo uninteresting.
The archers refuse to fire where ordered to (and unless AI bugs as it usually does they only get one salvoe off).
Knights you order to charge usually stops some yards away from the target, and wander around aimlesly...
When units face of, only 10 out of hundred or so actualy fight, the rest stare threatingly at the enemy...
THE AI SUCKS AND THE NEW CODE MAKES COMBAT RANDON AND UNINTERESTING.
sorry for saying. I am a BIG fan of total war, but the combats in this edition is just 100% boring.
No, you're not alone.
I'm actually in the exact same situation, and it ruins the game for me (a game as dependant on battle as MTW2 is quite destroyed when the battle make you fell asleep...).
I actually tried to point this in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72326), and pointed the suspect (spacing between fighting units) in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72480), but there is (for now) a surprisingly low number of people who seems to have noticed it.
Dutch_guy
11-18-2006, 00:48
Hmm I can't say I've been experiencing those problems you seem to have.
My archers always fire at the enemy on which I tell them to, but obviously the amount of salvo's depends on the speed (IE: running or walking) the AI orders it's troops. Also, I've been hearing numerous things about that passive AI, but I have yet to experience that myself. That said, CA announced they'd fix this in the next patch, so have a bit of patience on that one.
My knights don't always engage the target I ask them to, could be because those arrogant knights have a will of their own ~;). but other than that they use their lances when I ask them to, and use their swords when I order them to. So no obvious problems with those either.
Your third point,
Well, maybe you put your units on guard mode (first two ranks fight only, depending of course on the unit depth) or lined your units up in too deep a rank. And it wasn't the case in the previous games that all the soldiers would fight at once, you should know that considering you played all the games. In Rome you had soldiers facing the other side, while their comrades where fighting mere inches to their other side. And in Medieval only the first rank would actually engage, the others would just await their turn. Now, obviously there is room for improvement in this game, concerning the fighting of individual soldiers. But I daresay that will be so in all the games to come.
You conclude the AI sucks on what basis ? The above mentioned ? Or have I missed something.
It's common knowledge this isn't chess quality AI, and I don't think a lot of players who frequent these boards actually fear or lose (to) the AI. But saying it sucks because of reasons which may even be ones own fault is a bit harsh. Even if it is one's own opinion.
:balloon2:
those arrogant knights have a will of their own ~;). but other than that they use their lances when I ask them to, and use their swords when I order them to. So no obvious problems with those either.
How is this done? And to what purpose?
Your third point,
Well, maybe you put your units on guard mode (first two ranks fight only, depending of course on the unit depth) or lined your units up in too deep a rank. And it wasn't the case in the previous games that all the soldiers would fight at once, you should know that considering you played all the games. In Rome you had soldiers facing the other side, while their comrades where fighting mere inches to their other side. And in Medieval only the first rank would actually engage, the others would just await their turn. Now, obviously there is room for improvement in this game, concerning the fighting of individual soldiers. But I daresay that will be so in all the games to come.
Just follow the links I gave, and see the screenshots yourself. They are quite telling.
Perhaps that in RTW too not all the men in a unit were fighting, but at least all the ones in the front were, and they were in a much tighter formation, making a mélée looking like a mélée.
Here, they seem to simply wait for their turn, and occupy a HUGE space for nothing, with a front-line made of one man every 5 metres. Ridiculous and killing any excitement the battles could create...
Kadagar_AV
11-18-2006, 01:05
With AI I meant own unit reaction when you order them.
It just doesnt feel like they do what I tell them to. When I play custom games, I find myself quiting the battle before it ends out of boredom, something that has never EVER happened before...
I dont feel "in control" of my troops, I dont think it's fun to watch the fights.
I mean, I ran a testgame when I first got the gaem just to see the graphics. I took one unit of knights (me) and oen unit of peasents (computer).
I just wanted to watch the mayhem... You know, like in RTW.
Result when I pressed charge was: Knights strolled forward... stoped some yards away from target. The peasents strolled in and some 10 of them started fighting my knights. Some 3 min later the peasents had lost too many men and ran, my knights chased them to map edge but didnt really manage to kill the last ones off.
I had expected something like the scene from LOTR where the riders of Rohan charge the orc flank...
Instead I got a *yawn*
BeeSting
11-18-2006, 01:12
Don’t let Hollywood educate you.
Dutch_guy
11-18-2006, 01:13
How is this done? And to what purpose?
Just follow the links I gave, and see the screenshots yourself. They are quite telling.
Perhaps that in RTW too not all the men in a unit were fighting, but at least all the ones in the front were, and they were in a much tighter formation, making a mélée looking like a mélée.
Here, they seem to simply wait for their turn, and occupy a HUGE space for nothing, with a front-line made of one man every 5 metres. Ridiculous and killing any excitement the battles could create...
Lycan:
If you meant how you make them couch their lances, it's done by simply clicking once on an enemy. When close enough the knights will use their lances, and charge the enemy. If you double click on a foe, the knights will charge in using their swords.
Akka:
Well, I have seen such 'gaps' occur sporadically during combat. But thus far, only in sieges. And I don't quite see how this detracts from the gameplay. Or from the overall perception of the game. And as mentioned in your other thread, maybe this is the realistic approach ? I wouldn't know, and I don't know if it's for the best. But it doesn't ruin the battle for me, or for that matter the game, when I see this happen.
The initial charge is a bit less..hectic...than in Rome. But I think that's because you see less legionaries perform a jumping attack on an enemy. In M2 the units charge, and try to perform their killing moves. Which seems a lot less frantic then it happened in Rome.
:balloon2:
Kadagar_AV
11-18-2006, 01:31
PS: I dont get my facts from hollywood movies, TBH I'm a history etacher here in sweden :book:
Well, I have seen such 'gaps' occur sporadically during combat. But thus far, only in sieges. And I don't quite see how this detracts from the gameplay. Or from the overall perception of the game.
I can confirm that such huge spacing happens everywhere. It's simply that it seems that, to fight the "blob" of RTW, they made it so that fighting men need a large space aroung them.
Sure, no more "blob" due to this spacing, but no more mélée, which is quite ridiculous.
How does it detract from the gameplay or the game ?
Hu, well...
No mélée ?
In a medieval setting ?
Seeing basically 5-10 duels while it's supposed to be two formations of hundred of men crashing one into another ?
How can I immerse myself into an epic battle if there is such ridiculous spacing between my men (spearmen with a 5 m spaced formation ? Please !)
And as mentioned in your other thread, maybe this is the realistic approach ? I wouldn't know, and I don't know if it's for the best. But it doesn't ruin the battle for me, or for that matter the game, when I see this happen.
No, it's not realist. Formation of units have staying power partly because of the press and mass of men. Sure, you don't necessarily need the macedonian phalanx, with being men being shoulder-to-shoulder to maximize the "hedgehog effect" of the pike. But even the sword-wielding roman legion, with an admitedly "spaced" formation to allow men to fall back between the lines, weren't having such huge gap between them.
A formation so loose means that any tighter unit can simply trample them and push them off their way. It's not even a "loose" formation, damnit, it's a LACK of formation, they simply advance one by one in the direction of the duel and take their place each in turn. How this can be realist in any way when it comes to UNIT formations, movement and fighting ?
The initial charge is a bit less..hectic...than in Rome. But I think that's because you see less legionaries perform a jumping attack on an enemy. In M2 the units charge, and try to perform their killing moves. Which seems a lot less frantic then it happened in Rome.
Not only that, but the charges are much less powerful too, barely pushing men one step or two. I don't think that a cavalry charge should be absorbed so easily, and I don't think it's realistic for a horseman to have so little kinetic energy...
grinningman
11-18-2006, 03:26
With AI I meant own unit reaction when you order them.
It just doesnt feel like they do what I tell them to. When I play custom games, I find myself quiting the battle before it ends out of boredom, something that has never EVER happened before...
I dont feel "in control" of my troops, I dont think it's fun to watch the fights.
I mean, I ran a testgame when I first got the gaem just to see the graphics. I took one unit of knights (me) and oen unit of peasents (computer).
I just wanted to watch the mayhem... You know, like in RTW.
Result when I pressed charge was: Knights strolled forward... stoped some yards away from target. The peasents strolled in and some 10 of them started fighting my knights. Some 3 min later the peasents had lost too many men and ran, my knights chased them to map edge but didnt really manage to kill the last ones off.
I had expected something like the scene from LOTR where the riders of Rohan charge the orc flank...
Instead I got a *yawn*
I think that you are just not used to the new way you have to control troops in M2TW. Charging is very different to RTW. When you give the order to charge with cavalry, the unit starts walking towards the enemy, then they lower their lances and speed up, then finally charge at full speed. This needs a considerable amount of room to get up to charge speed - if you just click to attack close to the enemy the cavalry will leisurely walk into combat.
For foot troops charging, they again start to walk towards the enemy, and then pause when they are close to them. At this point the front rank changes to a charge animation, and then charges forward. The rear ranks then follow. It seems quite difficult to pull off a successful charge with foot troops, especially against an enemy that is trying to charge you. I've found the easiest way is to charge an already-engaged enemy.
I much prefer the way charging works in M2TW to RTW, I can't just band box my cavalry and attack, I have to carefully set things up. When you do set up a perfect cavalry charge, it feels a lot more satisfying.
A correctly executed cavalry charge is very much like LOTR scenes :)
I think the only thing that is somewhat bugged are charges, I like the general combat and the way it plays only charges sometimes mess up completely. At times I noticed this is because AI troops turn their backs for a short second and that makes my trrops switch to chase mode so they stop charging, but sometimes they just do something else for no good reason and do not charge correctly, apart from that I like the combat.
Biggus Diccus
11-18-2006, 06:05
I totally agree with Akka on this one. Charging with infantry makes only for the first two lines to actually engage the enemy, the rest just lug around in the background watching the spectacle and making some defensive stance. This might be what Akka refers to as units spacing out. I have found that I have to make a infanty-unit run behind the enemy target and order the attack when all the men on top of the enemy to actually have my infantry engage in melee properly. This happens both in sieges and regular field battles.
Regarding charging cavalry I almost don't bother anymore. Lately I have started to use cavalry to chase routers or melee other cavalry only, because of the issues with charges.
Another thing about the combat-system in this game: why even bother displaying the stats of units? For the most part the stats don't tell you anything how they will perform against each other. You only know this through trial and error. I engaged a unit of Armored Swordsmen head on with a unit of Pilgrims (this was on Med, no generals) and it managed to pin the swordsmen and perform extremely well, considering the stats.
Kadagar_AV you dont need to use capital letters to get your point across. And spell properly. It might make people roll their eyes less when they're reading. The main complaints I have with the game will hopefully be resolved in the next two weeks or so. That is not to say that I don't agree with you. I just dont agree with the way you said it.
I have found that I have to make a infanty-unit run behind the enemy target and order the attack when all the men on top of the enemy to actually have my infantry engage in melee properly.
Well, actually...
I just tested that a few minutes ago, and it seems that, though the two units are in fact piling one on another... their soldiers simply don't fight !
There is the same number of "duelists" as when you tell them to attack in a regular fashion, who fight, and all the other just stand here doing nothing, while being on top of the ennemy 0_o
It's really disheartening -_-
SoupNazi
11-18-2006, 09:15
i totally agree.the battle animations although pretty nice in movement, are too slow motion...the men should move much faster while fighting..and the battle lines should intertwine....when 2 large formations of soldiers charge against each other...they don't glue up in a straight line leaving the others idle
i dont find the game boring but yes my archers dont always fire when you tell them to and my knights sometimes stop and wonder aimlessly it sucks.
and i dont think my archers engage in melee.
My experience is that Archers fire when and where I tell them to but their salvos are far too slow - especiialy for 'Retinue Longbowmen' who in reality could do at leastt 4 a minute.
They used to be able to shoot their 2nd arrow whilst the first was still in the air.
Battles now are much more about micro management. Spaces between fighting units happen, but only if you do not handle units right. It is just getting used to a new style of playing. I think it is far more realistic. Keeping formation was very important in medieval battles, it is now too in MTW2.
Even nowadays still a few men still the fighting, the rest just stand and watches.
Akka you can find plenty of tips in the forums how the units properly charge, You will find out that a right charge can be devastating, vaporizing units in less than 30 seconds. Even heavy infantry.
Many siege battles I play, the AI tries to push through my lines, all units packed together, also in battles on normal battlefield by the way.
By now hundreds have whined about the passive bug, well we know that by now, why bother again complaining.
RTW was silly, you just had to bang your units against another units and you could go and have a coffee. MTW2 battles are a lot more fun because of the micro management.
Dave1984
11-18-2006, 12:03
My experience is that Archers fire when and where I tell them to but their salvos are far too slow - especiialy for 'Retinue Longbowmen' who in reality could do at leastt 4 a minute.
They used to be able to shoot their 2nd arrow whilst the first was still in the air.
In reality (opening up a can of worms) they were expected to be able to get off ten aimed arrows a minute, and there are several examples throughout the Hundred Year's War when English and Welsh longbowmen were sent home because they couldn't do so.
Debe2233
11-18-2006, 12:25
I do understand why the units need the spacing to stop the dreaded blob and how its accurate to real life but it sure does look stupid, and its frustrateing when your men sit around 20 meters away from the actual fight chatting away about the weather, at least make them LOOK like they're trying to join in.
And as for the charge... ugh... the front row runs in fine and the rest sit there scratching their heads and slowly moveing up i had one instance where only 1 man ran into the enemy unit the rest gently strolled up without a care in the world, have the front rank fight only, fine no problem... but again make the rest at least look like they're trying!
Missile troops dont seem to get much fire off... i think their rate is a little slow but generally ok just maybe a tad more on the range.
Other than the general look of the fight it seems good, better than RTW i just wish there was a bit more aggresiveness to the battle sometimes.
Daveybaby
11-18-2006, 12:27
Re: archers not aiming where you tell them to: There seems to be a bug where if you tell an entire group of archer where to aim they ignore you. If you select each archer unit one by one and tell them who to shoot, they seem to do what you tell them to. Yes, its a hassle, but its not a game killer.
Re: Charges not working. They work fine, YOURE JUST NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If you do it right they work pretty much every time. And theyre devastating when they hit - we're talking reducing a full unit of dismounted knights down to a handfull in a few seconds.
This isnt RTW. Get it right and you massacre the opposition - but the risk is there that your charge gets messed up and your knights get slaughtered.
Newsflash: Knights no longer uber unit. Thank god.
Of course i could be wrong, and it works perfectly on my machine and not on anybody else's - but from the posts i've seen its mostly people just running their knights at the enemy. THAT DOESNT WORK. WALK DONT RUN. (not shouting btw, just... um.... emphasising ;-) ).
Re: foot units not engaging, getting that here too on occasion.
Re: archers not aiming where you tell them to: There seems to be a bug where if you tell an entire group of archer where to aim they ignore you. If you select each archer unit one by one and tell them who to shoot, they seem to do what you tell them to. Yes, its a hassle, but its not a game killer.
Re: Charges not working. They work fine, YOURE JUST NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If you do it right they work pretty much every time. And theyre devastating when they hit - we're talking reducing a full unit of dismounted knights down to a handfull in a few seconds.
I think the archer thing is a side effect of the semi-intelligent battle line management where you select your entire line and click the enemy line and they automatically choose targets instead of all piling onto the one you clicked.
what's the trick to make charges work? I double-click the enemy, they run up and then stop to adjust formation and stroll into the enemy with swords out. I single-click the enemy, sometimes they just walk all the way up with swords out, sometimes they stop and pull lances and start charging but they almost always stop for formation and end up walking in with swords. it still fails most of the time even if the enemy is standing still and your knights are a good distance away facing directly at them.
wedge formation seems to work more often but generals can't do wedge.
the spacing thing is really annoying in city battles where the enemy has somehow massed a huge block of spears in the middle of a street and the heavy infantry attacking them will space out so there's like 10 guys fighting 60 spearmen and your units take horrible casualties.
Daveybaby
11-18-2006, 15:10
I think the archer thing is a side effect of the semi-intelligent battle line management where you select your entire line and click the enemy line and they automatically choose targets instead of all piling onto the one you clicked.
That would be great if it only did it when, say, 'fire at will' was on.
what's the trick to make charges work? I double-click the enemy, they run up and then stop to adjust formation and stroll into the enemy with swords out. I single-click the enemy, sometimes they just walk all the way up with swords out, sometimes they stop and pull lances and start charging but they almost always stop for formation and end up walking in with swords.
ALWAYS single click, NEVER double click. You also need to let your unit form up first, i.e. stop them far enough away, facing the target, wait for formation to stabilise, then click the target once and leave them to it. Yes, its a pain to set up, and requires a bit of time and space to do it in (which your enemy might not allow you to have) - but IMO thats a good thing - cos when it works its devastating.
And given enough space I find it works pretty much every time. Carnage ensues in enemy ranks.
wedge formation seems to work more often but generals can't do wedge.
Only just occurred to me that possibly which shape formation you use also makes a difference - i always use 2 deep wide formation. I've also noticed that once your cav get tired they wont charge as effectively (or maybe they only get a couple of charges before their lances are broken or something) but by that time i'm usually using them to chase down routers.
Marius Dynamite
11-18-2006, 15:23
Am I the only one finding the battles boooooooring?
No you are definetly not. I find the battles very boring. I have no idea why I find them boring though. I loved RTW and RTR battles. Perhaps It was because I loved the factions and the unique fighting styles. I also loved NTW online battles. With M2:TW its just not as fun. It could be because of the lagging in larger battles or the Sprites, I'm not sure. The bad Sprites on Cavalry has certainly put me off. I am thinking back to RTW and RTR and the many fun battles I had. I think the M2:TW graphics are not ready for a TW game.
I am hoping MTR will be more fun, or maybe the patch.
ALWAYS single click, NEVER double click. You also need to let your unit form up first, i.e. stop them far enough away, facing the target, wait for formation to stabilise, then click the target once and leave them to it.
Only just occurred to me that possibly which shape formation you use also makes a difference - i always use 2 deep wide formation.
tried that, didn't work. general's unit is sitting a good distance away from a peasant unit, facing directly at them in 2-deep line, mouseover shows "ready" instead of marching. and yet single-click still results in a lazy stroll into the front lines most of the time. other times they start charging and then stop like 20 feet away even though the formation is fine.
when the charge actually goes off it kills at least 1/4 of the peasants and usually causes a rout, but I can't get them to reliably charge because of the constant formation nonsense.
I haven't noticed any difference in success rates with 2-deep or 4-deep formation, but most of the time you're better off with 2-deep for maximum impact and more guys actually fighting after the charge instead of picking their noses in the back of the formation.
Daveybaby
11-18-2006, 15:58
Hmmm... okay well i guess i take it all back then. Weird - seems to work pretty reliably for me.
Just last night had a lone general attacked by a single unit of dismounted feudal knights. Was a bit nervous cos i knew that if i messed up the charge i was toast. 20 cav vs 60 dfk - after first charge down to 11 cav vs 18 dfk - a couple of cav lost when the charge hit, the rest before i could pull them back to regroup. 2nd charge routed the dfk.
H/H campaign, btw.
Gonna have a bit of an experiment tonight, methinks - see if i can get it to actually fail consistently.
I'm begging to agree.
My battles always consist of just shooting at the enemy standing still until my ammo is used up, and if anything is still standing then, charging with all my infantry = win. I need the patch soon D:
If you want to get the AI moving due to bug, just attack his shooters, on many occasions AI counter charges in full force.
Marquis of Roland
11-19-2006, 01:57
No problems with arrow fire at will mode, but I have big problems with guns on fire at will mode. For some reason when enemy gets into close range they don't fire. Defensive stance is on, skirmish is off.
As far as cav charges go, I have the "wandering around" problem about 50% of the time, most likely cuz 1 or 2 enemy infantrymen is fighting one of the knights on the fringe of the formation, it screws up the charge from AI perspective maybe? Not sure myself for now.
There are some bugs when moving groups over rough terrain; I expect them to change formation to maneuver around some rocks but i don't expect them to stay in that formation once they're in the clear.
Even with all of these problems I enjoyed the graphics and animation very much and I hope they fix the gameplay issues soon
This is one of the things that is really killing the game for me at the moment. The "realism" argument for the massive spacing is, to put it politely, a load of codswallop. Maybe the proponents of this theory arn't thinking of the same thing as I am, but when a perfectly formed unit charges into the enemy (if you can call it charging, I too am getting "lets stroll into the enemy line" syndrome with my units, and that is single-click attacking from quite a large distance away) and then stops mere feet away to space themselves about four to five meters apart so they can by butchered, I call that a bug. This happens all the time in sieges and less so in field battles. So massive street battles turn into complete fracas' as the attacking units are pushed together and the dreaded spacing takes over. So while the defending unit has a nice tight-knit group of spears defending, all of a sudden my units of Dismounted Knights gather up speed for a fearsome attack, and then they all stop, about 5-10 walk into combat and the rest all stand back making sure no-one invades their space. So now you have maybe 5 or more knights fighting a full unit of spearmen. Lovely.
I actually have taken to telling my units to march beyond the unit they are fighting to so that they walk into combat. And this doesn't always work as the foremost men try to push through the defenders and get hacked to pieces. This seriously needs to be addressed.
Another thing that's annoying me considerably at the moment is unit movement on walls. Tonight, for example, I deployed my archers on a segment of wall that looked likely to be attacked by a ladder. But the sneaky AI runs the ladder to another section of wall on the other side of the gatehouse when the battle begins. Fair enough, so I click on my unit a send them running to defend that part of the wall instead. Now, for whatever reason the unit breaks into a long chain of running men (obviously), BUT as soon as about 35% to 50% of the unit reach the target every man in the unit stops where he is. And even if you double click on the target position again, they'll run a little bit until the main chunk of the unit reforms itself onto the slightly-altered target and then stop again. And then, since maybe 50% of of the unit is strung out along a few lengths of curtain wal in groups of ones and twos they refuse to fire upon the incoming enemies. This isn't a usualy problem, but one of a myriad of 'quirks' that I'm experiencing with walls in sieges. On another occasion, because some of archers were stuck at the bottom of ladders (litteraly 4-5), while the rest was formed on the walls, the entire unit refused to open fire.
And one of my pets hates is that if your siege towers are interrupted in any way while they're being set against the walls they are rendered useless. This happened me at Caernarvon when the AI ran a unit out of the gates to intercept the men pushing my siege tower. They charged just when the tower was at the wall but the men had not yet climbed it. Obviously I ordered my men to engage the enemy that had attacked them before climbing the tower, but after they had dealt with them they refused to climb the tower (I tried telling them to attack units atop the walls, clicking to move them to the top of walls, telling them to 'pick up' the tower, but nothing worked). Another glitch is when you order more than one unit up a tower by telling two units to attack an enemy on top of the wall. They'll climb it alright, but if the enemy is destroyed before all the men have climbed the tower the units can 'freeze'; it becomes unresponsive (presumably because they target of their attack command no longer exists, meaning the remaining men at the foot of the tower or in the tower stop moving and the entire unit becomes locked up).
Since these problems are situationally-specific, they only occur at certain times and less so now since I have guessed most of the triggers and avoid causing them where possible, but it puts severe restrictions on how you use your units if you have to think "Oh, I don't want to tell them to do that just yet or they might lock up on me, I'll wait till the tower is completely clear".
And all of this before I even get to how cavalry chase down routing units! It's horrendous. Instead of them chasing off to slay the cowards on a madcap gallop (which was the general form of pursuing fleeing enemies at the time, rather than forming up and using the gradual, perfect charge), they seem to go everywhere BUT into the enemy. Instead they splay off in all directions, or run back and reform and then charge (by which time they have no chance of catching up before the enemy flees over a boundary), run parallel to the unit they're supposed to be butchering, or some other wonderfully abstract form of stupidity a lab full of chimps would be hard pressed to outdo. Some of these are bugs left over from RTW too, which makes it doubly puzzling as to how they managed to survive years of developing the same basic code.
...
Anyway, you'll have to excuse my rant. It probably comes across like I hate this game, but it's the complete opposite. I think the battles have the potential to be fantastic except there are certain kinks with the way units move and function. The campaign is superior in every way to Rome, except for a few things (assasins slightly weak, uber-powerful inquisitors spamming everywhere, the "factions relations: Abysmal" quirk whereby after getting into a war it becomes nearly impossible to get the AI to ceasefire even under the most generous ortheatening circumstances), but after playing for a few days the various glitches can really begin to destroy the experience. I understand most of the campaign bugs and the passive AI will be fixed in the first patch, but the lack of mention of this unit spacing bug has me slightly puzzled. M2:TW is, in my experience, the best Total War game to date. Yet some of the gameplay makes the game awkward and ponderous where it should be fluid and responsive.
P.S. And to think I registered here especially to make this post :sweatdrop:
Hello everyone :2thumbsup:
I'll have to agree about the movement of units on walls, but you have to admit.... Its been improved a lot from RTW. It still is somewhat lacking, however.
Don't get me wrong, i think this game is awesome, one f the best i've ever played, but there are a few things that, if changed, could make for a much more enjoyable playing experience.
In my opinion, the main factor is the almost complete disregard of armor. Is it just me, or is armor worn to deflect enemy blows? The one hit KO's by peasants at fully armored knights seems a bit off to me. Maybe this was aceptable in RTW, where all the units were a lot less armored.
I think MTW was pretty good in this respect, where units would swing repeatedly at other units, a lot of their blows glancing off their opponents armour. And even without armour, i think it would take more than one shot to drop an opponent.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i'm just simply annoyed at seeing units standing about, taking their time, carefully deliberating before attacking, and when they attack, their attacks seem to be perfectly aimed as to kill their oponent (usually) in one shot.
adembroski
11-19-2006, 06:22
Not only that, but the charges are much less powerful too, barely pushing men one step or two. I don't think that a cavalry charge should be absorbed so easily, and I don't think it's realistic for a horseman to have so little kinetic energy...
This has been driving me nuts. It drove me nuts in Rome as well. We've gone from an era when Infantry was dominant and Heavy Cav was an after thought to an era where Heavy Cav is everything and Infantry is a supporting unit, and it seems the developers got each backwards. Apparently stirrups don't count for much to this game.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
11-19-2006, 07:15
It's not the *moving* of the units of walls that gets me, it's the *placement* of them on walls. RTW let you make nice neat rows, but M2 throws your guys into these disorganized, hideous, uneven rows of men that leave huge gaps in the formation. Putting units on walls feels like playing a game of Tetris, as I try to get all the neat little purple dots to line up correctly.
Charges seem to work fine for me. I saw a unit of peasants (not the best comparison I admit) vanish in the dust of a General's charge. Strill awesome I say. My biggest compaint right now must be city and castle assaults. Castle assaults are bugged without a doubt. The AI simply does not know how to attack the second and third walls without YOU having to make them. Today I say the damndest thing: The AI destroyed my first wall with 3 units of catapults. They just sat there till the end and came out to take the next set only when I was already reclaiming the first gate. Does it do that on Hard or Very Hard?
littlebktruck
11-19-2006, 09:22
I think charges are plenty powerful--I've done custom battles with knights (take your pick) against highland rabble on grassy plains and all but 2 of the rabble destroyed in the charge--the problem is that charges are prohibitively difficult to get right. I think it makes sense that orderly charges do the most damage, but it's just silly when the whole unit pulls up in the face of the enemy because they aren't in immaculate line.
Despite some minor glitches I conclude that battles are much much more rewarding than RTW. Much of the moaning is a matter of taste.
AI shows some intelligence now, despite some minor glitches which have been in all Totalwar games, STW, MTW and RTW. It reminds a lot more of MTW and even the sheer frantic fun chaos of STW battles
AI pins down flanks, attacks with infantry as the first wave, backed by cav, uses it's shooters at the same time. Not always, but just as much as in MTW or STW.
AI attacks from behind, uses a second line of infantry to protect it's rear, unlike RTW where all you had to do was a wall of spears against your enemy and get behind it with cav, voila battle was over.
Siege battles are better and for the first time of all releases I like them. In STW, MTW and RTW I found them tedious boring.
AI uses arty with maximum effect and can be devastating. Made me loose some battles.
AI chooses better units, only if it is under economical pressure it starts to use cheaper units.
Yes there are some bugs, but I do hope one remembers the 1.5 hour battles of MTW where with a full stack army your were able to beat AI armies ten times as big as yours with an endless stream of reinforcements.
STW had some weird things too.
The stunning graphics do add an extra layer to the gameplay, the slow motion charges of which people complain are only if you follow a unit charging with the camera zoomed in. And I must say it looks extremely good, unlike RTW where you had unrealistic midgets on steroids running around the battlefield, their leggs moving as fast as Roadrunner. Whats the point of having nice graphics if you have to pause the game to have a look.
Maps are bigger and of more tactical depth, graphics here are again much better and do add to the game experience.
Weather has improved, some effects are stunning and finally the fogg which was so beautifull in Shoggy is back. Would like to see more weather influence though, heavy units sticking in mud, etc.
Controls are somewhat better, pace of battles are slower, something the vast majority of players wished for.
Would like to see more impact of fatigue on VH.
I do think some complaints and demands are rather unrealistic and will be a step back towards RTW. If you have been playing STW, MTW and RTW don't expect wonders from the AI. Nothing can replace the human brain.
MTW2 is an outstanding game, way beyond RTW which indeed was a bad game. Without the passive AI bug I would have lost many more battles.
Much more as in MTW or RTW anyway.
Want to have fun battles: play on VH, use minmal UI, switch of the radar, arrow markers and unit info caps, which leaves you much more guessing about what's going on.
Take a hilly map, switch on dense fog or heavy rain, take ten cav units, 50% horse archers and make sure the AI has a solid metal box of 15 units and horse archers. Havent had so much fun since Shoggy.
1. In RTW the kill rate was too fast and the unit which charged was usually the winner after 2 secs. I almost never dound my self watching the moral of a fighting unit.
In M2TW I must constantly keep an eye on the moral of fighting units and reinforce those that are wavering or shaken.
2. In RTW I had a home rule. Never pause the game to give the AI a brake.
In M2tw Iam many times forced to pause in many crucial moments.
3. In both RTW and M2TW I was disappointed when I was attacked. The disappointment source in RTW was that I was forced to play another battle knowing that I was just win while in M2TW I am frustrated that the computer keeps pressure on me.
4. The charge thing is true. In order to make a good charge you must move close your cavalry, organize it and then charge. If you just double click the enemy unit when the cav unit is 400 m away then the knights will just skirmish. But if you pay attention to your knights and organize them 50-60 meters before charging then the reward is a devastating sweep. It is realistic and when it is done right a knight unit can even take down almost entire units in 2-3 secs.
4. The charge thing is true. In order to make a good charge you must move close your cavalry, organize it and then charge. If you just double click the enemy unit when the cav unit is 400 m away then the knights will just skirmish. But if you pay attention to your knights and organize them 50-60 meters before charging then the reward is a devastating sweep. It is realistic and when it is done right a knight unit can even take down almost entire units in 2-3 secs.
That you have to properly organize your knights to make a really devastating charge doesn't bother me in the slightest.
That your knights suddendly lose all weight and all ability to push off the way lone infantrymen because they aren't in proper formation, this I have a problem.
I often see men and horses skidding on the same place because blocked by a peasant, and that's just not right.
Even disorganised, several horsemen arriving at full speed should have a kinetic effect and have an impact.
It doesn't have to be devastating, but it should have an effect.
Yes, I do understand that you must set up knights well before charging. I have been doing this and I will admit that when they do get the charge right the effect is devastating. However, it is so infinetly difficult to get the exact setup it becomes incredibly frustrating trying to organise a charge. Even when you think "Yes, they're lined up well and all ready in formation with," you hit the charge button and sit back expecting to be amazed, only to be dissapointed when some knights get held up by arrow fire, "clipping" another unit, lone stragglers from disarraryed formations or any other a hundred tiny little things and the entire thing turns into a shambles. Sometimes it turns into a shambles without any visible reason.
Besides the knights, I'd just like to ensure this stay on-topic; the unit spacing in combat drastically needs to be fixed. If you don't believe it does, then just look at the screenshots posted earlier in this thread. It's a sight that I'm getting too used to.
As stated and referred to earlier, problem shown in screenshots are easily solved during battle. I do not understand that the whole community was whining that RTW was too easy, now that MTW2 is slightly more difficult, they yet again they start whining that it is too difficult. The MORE I play MTW2, the LESS problem I have with unit spacing. It is a matter of control basically. It is not a bug.
Even the cav charge using their spears you get with double clicking, depending on speed, distance, movement of enemy and wehter your cav comes out of melee.
I cannot be the only one having that experience. Yup, more factors to consider, which makes it thank god more difficult to win battles.
I'm not "whining" because M2:TW is more difficult than R:TW. Quite the contrary, I am one of the TW-unique group of gamers that sighs with pleasure when they see AI-controlled armies completely dominate me with out-manouvering and effective attacks.
But okay, taking a step back maybe the problem iswith the way I'm controlling my units. I have tried looking through threads and applying the notes on how units charge in the new game but I'm still getting the spacing problem. Care to tell/show me how you control your units to avoid this problem?
Much appreciated,
Wiz
As stated and referred to earlier, problem shown in screenshots are easily solved during battle. I do not understand that the whole community was whining that RTW was too easy, now that MTW2 is slightly more difficult, they yet again they start whining that it is too difficult. The MORE I play MTW2, the LESS problem I have with unit spacing. It is a matter of control basically. It is not a bug.
Even the cav charge using their spears you get with double clicking, depending on speed, distance, movement of enemy and wehter your cav comes out of melee.
I cannot be the only one having that experience. Yup, more factors to consider, which makes it thank god more difficult to win battles.
I don't recall anyone talking about difficulty.
Maybe you would like to actually read a thread before patronizing, thank you.
And the problem of "handful of dueling" is EVER present.
Even when all the men are cluttered on top of others, just zoom in and notice that there is the majority of them doing nothing, and only a tiny minority actually fighting.
Biggus Diccus
11-19-2006, 18:29
Well, actually...
I just tested that a few minutes ago, and it seems that, though the two units are in fact piling one on another... their soldiers simply don't fight !
There is the same number of "duelists" as when you tell them to attack in a regular fashion, who fight, and all the other just stand here doing nothing, while being on top of the ennemy 0_o
It's really disheartening -_-
I never saw that, to be honest I never zoom in on battles anyway. But if what you say is true it is really stupid. I did seem to get better results with my method instead of simply attacking though.
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