Diplomacy and Reputations a bit of a rant [Archive]

cfc_kev

11-18-2006, 21:00

It seems to me that the AI has a couple of diplomatic options that the human player doesn't. the game really needs a "warning" option, when a neutral factions soldiers are wandering through your land you need a "transgression" option. it's really frustrating watching them come, knowing what they're up to but if you attack first the pope is mad at you! It'd be nice to have a diplomat go out and tell them they're entering a world of pain if they come any nearer.
It's quite annoying when you get the runt of the faction litter come up to your army and say "give us money or we attack" when you know that 5 turns after their attack they'll be wiped out. so it's also a bit odd that the AI can "firmly refuse" you but you cant do the same.

Does anyone know how your reputation is worked out? When I send out a diplomat mine often comes up as "Very Untrustworthy" but I have never broken an alliance even though plenty have broken with me.

Bob the Insane

11-19-2006, 00:06

I could live without the 'Transgression' option if attacking another faction's army on your land (while they do not have a military access agreement) was seen as a defensive action both diplomatically and by the Pope...

IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer

11-19-2006, 07:22

Comrade Alexeo

11-19-2006, 07:31

https://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1066/m2twturkdiplomacyei6.jpg

Er... maybe that's why?

Have to agree with the original poster; I like how in my HRE campaign that, say, my ally Venice can attack Vienna with no repercussions from either the Pope or from my other allies...

...I can repulse them, and then besiege Venice with my main army...

...and then, right as they're about to be starved out, first have Sicily (both my ally and Venice's) attack me, and then suddenly I find myself having a ceasefire with Venice for absolutely no reason whatever and now facing the Sicilians, who also managed to avoid both the Pope and my allies' wrath...

So, when my army reaches Naples, am I going to suddenly find out that the Sicilians also obtain a magical ceasefire from thin air and then, say, be excommunicated for, I dunno, existing? :wall:

sarjenius

11-19-2006, 10:34

I don't really get diplomacy in this game at all. The AI will get angry at me for reasons that cannot be explained by any currently developed language.

Case in point: after a peaceful series of turns, I am surprised upon the arrival of this message after ending a turn:

A crusade by the pope was announced and they all hopped into the ships to attack you.

..and then, right as they're about to be starved out, first have Sicily (both my ally and Venice's) attack me, and then suddenly I find myself having a ceasefire with Venice for absolutely no reason whatever and now facing the Sicilians, who also managed to avoid both the Pope and my allies' wrath...

Could it be that Sicily has made a ceasefire or an alliance with them this turn? Then it could happen that you get an "enforced" truce with them. After that the attack from Sicily as a partner of Venice makes sense as you are indeed attacking an ally from them (even if you were the first ally). But i think there was a bug reported for that case.

Ciddler

11-19-2006, 11:59

Now I am also playing as Turkey and it was completly normal for me to notice that a whole bunch of nations hated me when a crusade was declared on Antioch. However only 1 nation got through with an army (Polish) the rest had crusade armies but offered me cease-fire agreements, so they only joined the Crusade to impress the pope but lastly did not act on it.

However I would like to know how to improve my stance towards others besides bribes. I was betrayed about 4 times by the egyptians and they got a really bad name for themselves, I however got the exact same stance as he does now even though I was always the one attacked (except for a Jihad on Constantinople). How can I make other nations like me on a long-term basis. I give them money, we even get in alliances but after around 10 turns they just say "hey I like that city" and attack me. No matter what I do I can't get our relations above "very weak".

Debe2233

11-19-2006, 13:51

I think diplomacy is better but far from perfect, the main concern for me being enemies not agreeing to a cease-fire, i was Milan the enemy was Byzantium i had 15 cities they had 3, my power was absolute they were bottom, i offered them 20,000 for a ceasefire... they wouldnt accept it, i mean... WHY i have never attacked them, they got involved because they were allied to an enemy that attacked me at sea when their fleet was nearby.

The reputations as well seems strange, i've never broken an alliance or attacked someone without provocation yet i have an awful reputation... how come?.

On the other hand i find keeping good relations with other factions can be fairly easy and from my personal experience allies which have good relations with you are unlikely to attack unless your in the only direction they can expand.

Sheogorath

11-19-2006, 17:59

Diplomacy does need some work. Take my Portugal campaign for one.
Ive been at war with France since, oh, turn ten.
The French wont give up. They refused to accept a ceasefire on reasonable terms (Oh, lets see, I give you three regions, a lot of gold and my world-wide map for a 'balanced' agreement? Whatever.), so basically Im on turn 60-something now, my politics has mostly consisted of being very angry at Milan, the only state who would ally to me.
Y'see, our relations took a hit for some random reason, they were at 'reasonable'. The following turn Milan, which didnt ally to France (and I had just paid them 2000 gold to get in on the damn war), attacked me by blockading my ports.
W
T
F
?

I got mad at that point, so I sacked Paris and demolished everything in it except the church. Then I let it rebel and sacked it again. Now Paris is a 'minor city' and Im happy again.
I plan to wipe out the remnants of the French shortly.

There was also a phase where we had a French Pope who threatened to excommunicate me every time I sieged a city for more than two turns. However now the College of Cardinals consists of me, Poland, and a single Hungarian.
No assassins needed, I just handed the Pope 5,000 Florins and suddenly French cardinals started to die and be replaced my my own.
Sometimes the AI amazes me ;)

Chrisky

11-19-2006, 19:43

I played a whole campaign as HRE and NEVER started a war, neither by trespassing on foreign ground or sinking foreign ships. My reputation was always really bad, diplomacy only served me for bribing the pope.

It seems to be impossible to get
a) a decent reputation, even though you don't harm anyone (unless they started).

b) (thanks to a)?) no other power accepts anything in the fair range of offers.

I have been attacked by allies (France, Poland and Denmark), alliances had no effect in any case at all.

The only useful thing i found that denying trade rights in the beginning keeps foreign merchants away for a while so you get time to soup yours up...

Overall I must say that whoever tested the game in advance has utterly failed. I just quit the game after having to wait through an attack of danish AI who obviously thought different when on the battlefield... Sorry, getting offtopic...

Lusted

11-19-2006, 19:53

a) a decent reputation, even though you don't harm anyone (unless they started).

Im my Venice campaign my reputation is outstanding, as i never break alliances, always the defender in wars, and do whatever the Pope says. But with the HRE, it looks like most factions are set to dislike you more anyway.

econ21

11-19-2006, 22:28

Im my Venice campaign my reputation is outstanding...

What's the difficuly setting for your Venice campaign? I wonder are you actually conquering provinces? My reputation on VH England is almost universally absymal (except for a heavily bribed Pope) and I've done nothing "wrong" except work towards the 45 province target (through turning the tables on aggressors).

Dooz

11-19-2006, 22:51

What's the difficuly setting for your Venice campaign? I wonder are you actually conquering provinces? My reputation on VH England is almost universally absymal (except for a heavily bribed Pope) and I've done nothing "wrong" except work towards the 45 province target (through turning the tables on aggressors).

The "abysmal" part is your relation with other specific factions. Reputation is another issue all together, which is your reputation as a faction across the board, and can be reliable or so-so and all that other stuff. That's related to not breaking treaties and all that jazz. I have mine at reliable basically by keeping alliances and listening to the Pope (and giving him money once in a while). As far as the relations are concerned, they're all poor or worse, even with my closest allies, and for the life of me I don't know why.

I do know however, giving other factions gifts of the monetary persuasion every once in a while does increase your relations with them. A thousand gold (maybe 2000) pieces will take you up from very poor to reasonable I believe. Until now, that's the only way I've found to really improve and maintain relations... I guess it's kind of realistic in that way eh? Still, I wish there was more that could be done and the rating wouldn't go down the crapper by just doing nothing.

majesticchapel

11-19-2006, 23:41

I can give an example in the exact opposite direction, in my English campaign I comitted about every possible trespass known to man, I broke alliances constantly, exterminated every town i took over and had a personal army of assassins, I also got excommunicated once ( bribed the pope and he took it back). My reputation is "so-so". :inquisitive:

Husar

11-20-2006, 00:04

I'm playing France (m/m) and the HRE, Portugal and Spain are allied, they all attacked me for some time until I pumped them full of money.
I paid them around 50000 each for a ceasefire(anything I try that is not labeled "generous" will not be agreed on anyway) and so far only the Germans kept it, but they are busy with the danes. Portugal just likes attacking me even though I have around 10 times as many provinces as they have. Generally relations with everyone seem to suffer over time unless you make a present now and then. But even good relations don't really seem to stop them from attacking. I was at war with spain, they kept attacking toulouse and all I did was defend, our relation was good it said though they still kept attacking me? Seems like my actions are the only ones affecting diplomacy and the AI just likes war.:juggle2:
It's called Total War after all, right?:sweatdrop:
I'd sometimes really like to have a neighboring ally though, but the only ones who stay allied are factions which don't share a common border it seems.

knoddy

11-20-2006, 00:13

playing english camp on M/M. i have never broken an alliance, although ive had bout 6 broken on me, and yet my reputation is untrustworthy or something like that. its wrong. I had a alliance with the danes from about turn 10, about 100 turns in they attack me, the stupid thing is, they say "they attack when they see a soft target", they attack a city bordering theres that had a full stack of my best units (dismounted knights, armoured swordsmen, retinue longbows).

also, despite being utterly smashed the french would not consider a cease fire at all. i had them down to 1 province with 2 xbow men, a catapault, and a few random family members walking around, and htey still would not accept ceasefire.

so yes i think the reputation thing needs fixing, cos i have done nothing bad to other friendly factions yet im "untrustworthy" what???

Cheers Knoddy

Beefeater

11-20-2006, 14:47

I wonder about AIs that mysteriously won't accept ceasefires.

1. It seems to me that where an AI faction is allied to another AI faction and both are at war with you, neither will accept a ceasefire even in return for land. Neither will they accept cash as a gift. They WILL though accept land as a gift and this can raise relations out of 'abysmal' which may be a step toward a ceasefire.

2. If you are excommunicated or (worse) excomm'd and also the target of a crusade, forget ceasefires. People will have no more truck with you than they will with the Muslim factions, unless they don't share a land border with you.

Lothar the Malevolent

11-20-2006, 15:32

My biggest problem with the diplomatic AI is that it is completely unreasonable when it comes to accepting a ceasefire, even if you have completely dominated them in battle and they have nothing to gain by continuing to fight and everything to lose. It's been a particular annoyance in my HRE campaign. First Venice declared war and sieged Vienna with an inferior army led by their King which I dealt with easily, I then proceeded to take an army to Venice and took that city from them. I've repeatedly offered them a ceasefire but they always regard it as demanding. They have no hope of winning the war (primarily because my assassins are ensuring their troop production buildings are kept in a state of ruin) but it seems I have no choice but to eliminate them.

Milan and Sicily have subsequently done almost the exact same thing, attacking with a small army, being crushed and stubbornly refusing to accept defeat and make peace. And meanwhile there's a german pope in Rome twiddling his thumbs not even bothering to excommunicate the enemies of his Kaiser who helped get him where he is.

I really think diplomacy needs some adjustment, at the very least factions need to know when they have lost a war and try to get out of it. Im not looking for trustworthy and gullible neighbors or anything, I just want rational diplomatic negotiations. And there is quite simply no way im going to pay or donate territory to a defeated enemy, unfortunately thats the only to make peace in many cases at present.

maestro

11-20-2006, 15:42

I'll just add that I, too, am amazed at the way some AI factions just won't give in - but..... I don't mind it. Yeah, I wiped out the French down to the last settlement and yeah, I'm surprised they won't take a ceasefire and they find it demanding whilst my leet army stands outside their gates bashing their shields with their swords... but it's just National Pride. "Weee will not queet til evrrry Ingleeesh peeeg is dead!" Although I find it amusing, on a slightly more serious note - not one faction, ever, has accepted a ceasefire from me - even though I'm "supreme" in power. I've been at war with France, Milan and Denmark now for about 75 turns and they haven't won a single engagement and are only losing territory over time, yet they still seem to think it's in their interest to fight me :dizzy2:

Quillan

11-20-2006, 15:44

I've seen the same thing, and I think I know the cause of it. Over to the side, where it lists faction strength or power, it seems to be a ranking of your overall military might. It doesn't seem to consider what they have facing YOU. In my Byzantine campaign, I purposely stopped my eastern expansion at Adana, but I left two armies there to stop encroachments. Every few turns, a Turkish army appears and gets destroyed. I've twice taken Aleppo from them, destroyed all the buildings and let it revolt. Any time I feel like it, I can walk in and take Aleppo and Edessa (the Turkish capital now) if I'm willing to pay the butcher's bill, but they consider a ceasefire as "Very demanding". The Turks military is still considered "strong", it's just not strong enough.

I have two armies facing the turks, 3 armies at Iasi holding off the Mongols, one in southern Italy (just took Rome after the Papal States declared war on me), a partial horse archer army hanging outside between Venice and Zagreb to deal with northern encroachments, and two full armies acting as garrisons in Venice and Constantinople, plus all the rest of the troops elsewhere. If I decide to take Turkey, he can't stop me, but he won't make peace. The Hungarians were the same. They didn't ask for peace until I'd destroyed pretty much their entire military might, and by the time they did, I was besieging their last city, and said no. Venice asked for a ceasefire in similar circumstances, after I'd crushed their field army and Ragusa was about to fall to my army.

Doug-Thompson

11-20-2006, 16:02

Bob the Insane

11-20-2006, 16:08

Re: Wholescale worsening of relations.

If you're winning, the other factions hate you. It's quite realistic.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the diplomacy changes. However, that's probably because all I really want out of the other factions are trade, map information and an occasional ceasefire.

Oh, well that makes more sense then...

Explains why my relations are generally worsening with factions I have little to no contact with. I mean the Russians for instance. I allied with them near the begining of the game (playing as the English). Despite going nowhere near their territory and not being at war with any of their other allies the relationship with them has started worsening out of the blue...

chunkynut

11-20-2006, 16:41

I had some good diplomatic relations at the start of the game but as I got bigger and more powerful that ended.

I think the largest part of my faction's reputation demise is that my spies and assassins get caught ... when I'm trying to increase their skill. This is obviously a bad move against your allies and probably neutrals too.

Slaists

11-20-2006, 17:45

Could it be that the king's authority is important too? At some point in my English campaign my King's authority was maxed out along with dread and I had a very good diplomat. It seemed like almost anything I offered to anybody was considered to be "generous". It was on medium difficulty, btw.

playing english camp on M/M. i have never broken an alliance, although ive had bout 6 broken on me, and yet my reputation is untrustworthy or something like that. its wrong. I had a alliance with the danes from about turn 10, about 100 turns in they attack me, the stupid thing is, they say "they attack when they see a soft target", they attack a city bordering theres that had a full stack of my best units (dismounted knights, armoured swordsmen, retinue longbows).

also, despite being utterly smashed the french would not consider a cease fire at all. i had them down to 1 province with 2 xbow men, a catapault, and a few random family members walking around, and htey still would not accept ceasefire.

so yes i think the reputation thing needs fixing, cos i have done nothing bad to other friendly factions yet im "untrustworthy" what???

Cheers Knoddy

Quillan

11-20-2006, 18:00

I can understand the degrading of relationships, but the reputation part I don't understand. I'm 180 turns into my Byzantium campaign. In all that time, I've allied with Hungary, HRE, and England (via marriage). I've signed trade rights with every single civilization in the game (including the Mongols). I have not broken an agreement. I haven't declared war on ANYONE, although many have declared war on me. My reputation is "Untrustworthy".

I am exceedingly trustworthy. If I sign an alliance with you, you can guarantee I won't attack you. If I agree to pay you tribute, I won't end it early. You can trust me on that. If you attack me, I will attempt to destroy you. You can trust me on that. If you want to pass through my lands on crusade, I will not scatter small armies around to block you, nor will I assassinate your generals/priests. You can trust me on that. If you run 5 catholic priests into my lands on their own, they will meet with mysterious accidents. You can trust me on that. If I try to end a war with you, and you refuse me, then you ask to end the war when I'm about to take your last city or some major stronghold, I will not agree. You can trust me on that. I am the most faithful of friends, and the most faithful of enemies, also. You can trust me on that.

Doug-Thompson

11-20-2006, 18:12

Oh, well that makes more sense then...

Explains why my relations are generally worsening with factions I have little to no contact with. I mean the Russians for instance. I allied with them near the begining of the game (playing as the English). Despite going nowhere near their territory and not being at war with any of their other allies the relationship with them has started worsening out of the blue...

Well, yeah.~:yin-yang:

You're not interacting or helping them in any way, but are getting more powerful than they are. Makes sense to me.