Ouch! Help with huscarles

[Tony Furze]

Im playing as the Irish in a vanilla VI campaign on Hard-I ve come up against the Saxon Huscarles and,while I have the armour piercing units, they get scared just looking at those guys. (I do,too). So they don t even get a chance to throw their javelins.

Some bonnachts did a good allout all-or-nothing stand 1 on 1 on a hill as a side show but I lost the battle overall.

Any advice at how to shake these guys (the huscarles) in their armour?

[r johnson]

Cavelry, once an enemy cavelry charge against my huscarles wiped out nearly all the troops with only around 5-8 troops still alive running for there live (quite rightly). Some reason huscarles are useless against cavalry, must be the huge axes.

[Tony Furze]

Thanks, r johnson.

What sort of cav were they? The Irish are a bit poor on Cav as it is having only Royals (small unit) and horsemen (not the best cav) but I think I can muster up some mercs-Viking Raiders and my favourite, the Mtd Sgts.

[Geezer57]

Your best infantry matchup as Irish against Huscarles are your Gallowglasses, preferably led by a high-command General and supported by javelin-tossing troops (Kerns or Bonnachts). You'll want to take advantage of every tactical plus you can find: terrain (be higher than the Huscarles), outnumbering, flanking/rear attacks, constant missle fire, etc.

Gallowglasses are armor-piercing and have higher charge and attack values than Huscarles, although their defense, armor, and morale are lower. As long as they stay fighting, they'll damage the enemy. So upgrade them as much as possible, especially for morale, as otherwise they'll run before finishing the job!

Try to fight all your battles against Huscarles defensively - let them come to your battle line, wearing them down with skirmishing tactics (Kerns & Dartmen). If a Huscarle unit veers off course from your main line and starts chasing a skirmisher, so much the better. That takes him away from the focus of the fight and just tires him out - when he does finally arrive at the battle, you'll hopefully have defeated the rest of his friends and will outnumber him significantly.

Also remember that your troops cost much less to build and maintain than Huscarles. You can build two Gallowglass units for every Huscarle, and their combined support every year is lower than theirs. You may not win every battle, but as long as you damage them sufficiently, you'll win the war in the long run.
:smash:

[caravel]

Some sound advice from Geezer there. I agree entirely, with that strategy. You should try to improve the Gallowglasses morale as much as possible and try to use them as flankers. The best cav to use against Gallowglasses are the Royal Bodyguards or the Mounted Nobles. You can position defensively forceing the Huscarles to come to your Bonnachts, inflict as much damage with those, then charge them head on and in the flanks with your cavalry and bring the gallowglasses into the rear. They shouldn't last long. Unfortunately these sort of extreme measures are needed to deal with Huscarles as they're an insanely overpowered unit that can wipe the floor with anything else in that the opposition can throw at them. If you fight them one on one with any other unit you'll lose every time. A single Huscarle unit has the capacity to chew through about 4000 peasants, 3 units of Royal Bodyguard or about 5 units of Celtic warriors before breaking into a sweat.

[Derfasciti]

I am not very experienced with this but i've heard that Irish dartmen, or any missile units, are very good against them. Hope that little tidbit helps.

[bamff]

Derfasciti is right - dartmen can do the job (as I discovered to my cost) - but Geezer57 is also right - the key is numbers!

You need to be able to engineer a situation where you have a few expendable units to pin the huskies down so that your little armour piercing dudes can do their deadly work. Yes, you are going to suffer casualties - but you have to break a few eggs if you want to make a cake, right? Ideally these "pinners" need to have sufficiently high morale to cop the beating that they will have to wear...otherwise you are just courting disaster. So hold them still, then get your dartmen and bonnachts into position to rain death on the saxons.

Another issue worth noting - Huscarles, with all of their heavy armour will tire a lot quicker than your speedy Irishmen. Run 'em around for a bit to wear them out.

[Martok]

I am not very experienced with this but i've heard that Irish dartmen, or any missile units, are very good against them. Hope that little tidbit helps.
GAH! Nasty Irish Kerns bring death to my beloved Huscarles. (I can't kill what I can't catch.) GAH! :dizzy2:

[Peasant Phill]

About those viking cav raiders, don't use them unless your the vikings or you desperatly need some fast cav. They are the worst cav in the game, only good for chasing routers.

[caravel]

I am not very experienced with this but i've heard that Irish dartmen, or any missile units, are very good against them. Hope that little tidbit helps.

Dartmen throw darts, not javelins, so Bonnachts or Kerns would be better. The Bonnachts, being a full size unit, can hurl a full volley so they deal more potential damage. Also the javelins are armour piercing as opposed to darts which are not, IIRC.

[naut]

Also remember that your troops cost much less to build and maintain than Huscarles. You can build two Gallowglass units for every Huscarle, and their combined support every year is lower than theirs. You may not win every battle, but as long as you damage them sufficiently, you'll win the war in the long run.
:smash:
Sounds like a war of attrition.

[Geezer57]

An exercise recommended for players new to skirmishing: set up a custom battle, for the AI take a single Joms Viking (an uber Huscarle) at 725 florins, for yourself take a pair of Irish Kerns at 250 florins. Set your Kerns far enough apart that the Joms can't attack them both simultaneously, but close enough that they can both reach the enemy with javelins.

Learn to recognize when the enemy unit has picked one of yours as a target, then take the other Kern off skirmish and target the Joms for missle attack - let the other Kern stay in skirmish mode and run. Keep this up as long as possible, only taking manual control of your target unit if it gets close to a map edge or corner - you don't want to let it get trapped, as it will be chewed up beyond salvage if it gets stuck in melee. If one unit runs out of ammo, try to get the enemy to switch targets, so the one with javelins can chase/fire instead. Never engage in melee until both Kerns are out of ammo, and the Joms Viking is totally exhausted, then (and only then) attack simultaneously from flank/rear. Done right (it requires lots of micromanagement), your cheap skirmishing force will defeat an elite force costing almost three times its own.

It's much easier using faster mounted units like Pictish Mounted Crossbows, but can be done (with practice) by most foot skirmishers. Once you've won with foot skirmishers, you'll learn to love almost any fleet armor-piercing missile troop against slow heavily-armored foot elites. It's almost like the "dance with Death" in bullfighting, where the two opponents are physically completely mismatched, but the outcome can determined by skill and cunning.

One side note: javelin troops find it much easier to target the enemy if they are stationary (and preferably at an elevation to the target). This often requires some sort of "pinning" unit, to fix the enemy in place. The preferred type for this duty is a strong spear unit, but unfortunately Viking Invasion is short on selection for this type. There are Fyrdmen (available to Mercians, Northumbrians, and Saxons), Viking Thralls (Viking faction only), Dismounted Nobles (only 40 men - all factions except Welsh & Viking) - but none of these are widely available nor particularly strong. In a pinch you might substitute sword/polearm infantry (Celtic Warriors, Militia Sergeants, Urban Militia, Woodsmen), but don't expect them to last long. As Irish (where this discussion first started), I really think your best pinning unit are the Gallowglasses, although they're better suited (as mentioned) for flanking, and need to be given every morale/defense boost you can find. Other than a few royal elites, there really isn't much to choose from in VI for holding troops. In the late stages of the game, sometimes maximum upgrades to Celtic Warriors or Fyrdmen will seem to make do, but that isn't an available option at the start. Which is why I stress learning to skirmish, to harass and harry your enemy before he gets to your main line. Every dead Huscarle who never reaches your position for melee attack is one less to worry about. And the more tired they are, the better for your rested troops.

EDIT: going from memory and depending on the Yaz Units Master Tool has its disadvantages - I completely overlooked Spearmen/Armored Spearmen for the Irish (they're not listed in Yaz for the Viking period, at least in the version I downloaded). Thanks to Kralizec for pointing out the omission - obviously, Armored Spearmen would be a better choice for holding against Huscarles.

[mfberg]

Since they are the Saxon Huscarles, and not the Viking Huscarles your enemies have to pay good money to get them. If you have a good base of operations you can get a decent mercenary army to take through your enemies' lands as economic warfare. Being on the attack against half a stack of Huscarles is easier than being on the defense.
If you see mercenary archers or crossbows buy them and keep them for use as the firing units and retreat them off the field when they are out of ammo. Other mercenaries are meat shields, a good way to cut costs, and if they all die, too bad.

mfberg

[Tony Furze]

Thanks for all the advice.

Unfortunately I lost to the Picts yesterday...however Im going to begin again today loaded with your advice.I love the Irish units and its just a matter of practice with them (plus upgrades) to make them sheeee-ine.

Thanks again.

[Kralizec]

Why doesn't anyone mention the armoured spearmen? Pin, then throw javelins in the enemy's backs. AS aren't an uber unit so you should work quickly, but I'd be surprised if gallowglasses lasted longer :inquisitive:

[caravel]

Why doesn't anyone mention the armoured spearmen? Pin, then throw javelins in the enemy's backs. AS aren't an uber unit so you should work quickly, but I'd be surprised if gallowglasses lasted longer :inquisitive:

You're right, I've used that tactic in the past. It's a long time since I've played a VI campaign. It is a viable tactic and you're far better off pinning with AS and flanking with Gallowglasses.

[naut]

Why doesn't anyone mention the armoured spearmen? Pin, then throw javelins in the enemy's backs. AS aren't an uber unit so you should work quickly, but I'd be surprised if gallowglasses lasted longer :inquisitive:
True.

[Tony Furze]

Well I ve started again.

The united Ireland part is easy enough- capturing all the provinces of the main Island. I ve also managed to get some 5 star gens to boot by bribery.

Last time I did a poor job of invading the mainland of Britain-I invaded several places at once.

Also, making money with what I have is not too hard. Its the invasion that has to be planned...

[caravel]

You need to achieve naval superiority and invade southern England first with your entire force, leaving only peasant garrisons in Ireland (fleets of longboats protecting your coasts). If you don't do this, and start sparring with the Picts or Scots in the north, or messing about in Wales, then either the Mercians, Saxons, or even the Northumbrians (though they're not usually as much of a problem) will probably conquer up to the Scottish borders and meet you there with several stacks made up of a good proportion of Huscarles. You will then have the unenviable task of fighting your way through that lot from north to south, probably losing alot and suffering many revolts and reappearances of the Scots and Picts in the North.

Train about 12 bishops at the start of the game and send 6 to Hordaland and 6 to Jutland and leave them there. If they get assassinated replace them. These are likely to be the only Bishops you'll need. When you have high valour spies you can send them there also. If the provinces rebel continuously, with your spies help, the Vikings may eventually lose and get eliminated. Send in your emissary, bribe the rebels, train peasant garrisons, and build any happy buildings to maintain loyalty and disband those units you bribed. Two extra provinces, albeit cut off provinces, and one less Huscarle producing pain in the rear.

You should only invade Great Britain when your economy can support it. It is very important to tech up to longboats and secure your coasts first, then expand your shipping to form a trade network. Once you're even moderately strong at sea and can produce ships from all of your provinces you should ruthlessly attack the Viking longboats and sink them all, alliance or not. This will serve to paralyse them and stop their raiding.

Don't invade from the south west coast, particularly Cornwall (West Wales). Instead take the route of William the Bastard of Normandy and land in the south east, spreading out quickly and taking Wessex. Invading via Cornwall may throw you into war with the Welsh and it is also easy for the AI to defend that choke point.

It is a good idea to ally with the weaker southern English faction, usually the Saxons, though not always and assist them with attacking the Mercians if the opportunity arises (it may not). Never let either of them get too strong.

Leave the Scots, Picts and Northumbrians until last. It is doubtful if the Northumbrians will make much headway against the Scots and Picts. Once you've conquered up to the borders your enconomic and military strength will be enough to deal with them easily. The Welsh should be absorbed directly after you've dealt with the Saxons or Mercians.

[Tony Furze]

Great guide/advice for my 100th post,Manco Capac!

You ve put some structure to what I was gradually beginning to work out-deal with the Vikings somehow. I d tried an alliance which they ve refused.

I was already working out (during afternoon tuitions) that Id need to secure the coast.

The invasion advice is great, as well as the bishops idea.

Looking at the Irish rosta, it ll require some skill to win battles since they ve no good cav and long range missiles.
I ve already seen my kerns beaten up by a bunch of armoured spear rebels in Munster.

Thanks so vey much.

[Biggus Diccus]

Looking at the Irish rosta, it ll require some skill to win battles since they ve no good cav and long range missiles. I ve already seen my kerns beaten up by a bunch of armoured spear rebels in Munster.

If you are desperate for archers just build a couple of inns and recruit them as mercenaries. If you build a Horse Breeder you can recruit 2 valor Horsemen, which are just as good as 0 valor Mounted Nobles/Royal Bodyguards. Remeber that Kerns/Bonnachts have very low defense, so try to flank and throw your spears before melee. And Kerns/Bonnachts/Gallowglasses have all 0 morale, so give them some morale upgrades.

It's been a while since I played the Irish in VI now, but I think I based my armies on Armored Spearmen, merc Archers and the occasional merc Crossbow/Mounted Crossbow, Gallowglasses/Bonnachts/Horsemen for flanking and Kerns for skirmishing/flanking.

[caravel]

You ve put some structure to what I was gradually beginning to work out-deal with the Vikings somehow. I d tried an alliance which they ve refused.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over alliances. They're rarely worth the effort. Accept any alliance that's thrown at you, unless you intend to go to war with that faction soon. Breaking alliances lowers your faction leaders influence so isn't good. If an enemy wishes to ally with you, accept it as they will probably break alliance again. If you wish to break an alliance cleanly before going to war, first try to ally with that faction's enemy. Then the alliance will be finished.


I was already working out (during afternoon tuitions) that Id need to secure the coast.

The Irish have the advantage of an isolated territory, like the Vikings, that can be protected (except the vikings don't need to protect their's as you can't get there) by fleets. Allowing your faction a stronger position and considerably more security. This is why the Irish are classified as an easy faction.


The invasion advice is great, as well as the bishops idea.

The Bishops will convert the population to Christianity, and if they don't cause a revolt or two they should cause the Viking leader himself to convert, putting an end to the raiding.


Looking at the Irish rosta, it ll require some skill to win battles since they ve no good cav and long range missiles.
I ve already seen my kerns beaten up by a bunch of armoured spear rebels in Munster.

Well the javelins are much more affective against huscarles than ordinary bows, due to their armour piercing ability, it just takes a bit of getting used to. Kerns are simply skirmishers, they'll probably always lose against Fyrdmen and Armoured Spearmen in melee.


Thanks so vey much.

:2thumbsup:

[Tony Furze]

Well I dominated the seas and got together a reasonably good and affordable army.

I wasn t able to attack the SE coast as the AI (having, no doubt , read these posts) didn t put any ports all around that side.

So I waited...and waited. Still no ports.

I took the plunge and invaded some little islands way up north held by rebels. Going south into Scotland was easy...I trumped the Picts, my archenemies.

The Saxons had gone , and the Vikings were neutralised by those bishops and my ships.

Then my economy began to teeter. When I finally attacked the Mercians, I was well in the red and the Mercians blockaded my ports paralysing what little trade I did have.

At that I knew I wouldnt be able to revive the economy and gave up.

[Pericles]

Huscarles are indeed very overpowered units in VI.

So what I did was increase their cost from 475 florins to 575 florins. This will make them more expensive to recruit by me and the AI.

In addition, I made them buildable as mercenary troops. This will help when I play one of the weaker factions. Not many show up, and they are expensive (about 400f to purchase, with 150f upkeep). Even so, it is good to know that you might be able to recruit one or two Huscarle mercenary units that will help out when the Mercians hit you with 5-6 Huscarle units in an attack. At the very least they will be units of last resort to help stop the "Sherman Tank" of the ancient period.