EB Preview :: Lusotannan

[Krusader]

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.


https://img462.imageshack.us/img462/4681/logoiberia1bvd2.jpg

As some of you might know we announced a third faction some time back. And as some of you might have suspected, it's the Lusitanians or in EB, Lusotannan. Thus the Iberian faction will be focused entirely on the Lusotannan, one of the most known ancient Iberian tribes, if not most known, who made the Iberian peninsula an ill-favoured place to be for any Roman legionnaire during the Roman republic and early empire. This means the Lusotannan will only start with the Lusitania province in western Iberia and the former Celtiberian province will instead be a rebel allied one.
But you think we would announce a preview with only this as the announcement? No of course not. A lot of work has gone into the Lusotannan and you can see the new units below.
Enjoy!!

And of course, many many thanks to Aymar de Bois Mauri for the work on units and the faction itself. Teleklos Archelaou for his work on graphics. But our biggest thanks goes to Sarcasm who has done a tremendous effort on descriptions and research and without him, this faction wouldn't have been so far, and also to Anthony who helped with making a "Lusitanian language" based on Indo-European and it's relationship to the Celtic language variants in play in this region.



https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpghttps://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpg


Factional units


Iovamann:

https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5705/iovamannpresentationcd2.th.jpg (https://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iovamannpresentationcd2.jpg)

Caetranann:

https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2531/caetranannpresentationuv9.th.jpg (https://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=caetranannpresentationuv9.jpg)

Gestikapoinann:

https://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4082/gestikapoinannpresentaths5.th.jpg (https://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gestikapoinannpresentaths5.jpg)

Scortamareva:

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6941/scortamarevapresentatioek5.th.jpg (https://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scortamarevapresentatioek5.jpg)

Ambakaro:

https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2674/ambakaropresentationdw1.th.jpg (https://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ambakaropresentationdw1.jpg)

Ambakaro Epones:

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2210/ambakaroeponespresentatnx6.th.jpg (https://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ambakaroeponespresentatnx6.jpg)



https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpghttps://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpg


Iberian Regional units


Balearic Light Infantry:

https://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7549/baleariclightinfantryprys2.th.jpg (https://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baleariclightinfantryprys2.jpg)


Balearic Slingers:

https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4325/balearicslingerspresentdi8.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balearicslingerspresentdi8.jpg)


Dosidataskeli:

https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4643/dosidataskelipresentatimm4.th.jpg (https://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dosidataskelipresentatimm4.jpg)


Loricati Scutari:

https://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3041/loricatiscutaripresentaly5.th.jpg (https://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=loricatiscutaripresentaly5.jpg)


Iberi Lanceari:

https://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8872/iberilancearipresentatinv0.th.jpg (https://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iberilancearipresentatinv0.jpg)



https://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpghttps://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2809/lusitaniseparator3smalliz9.jpg

Some ingame screenshots of the new standards for Lusotannan and Iberian rebels

https://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3943/lusitanianbannersls3.th.jpg (https://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lusitanianbannersls3.jpg)


Here are the banners for everyone:

First the EB Member (only) signature banner:
https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7064/logoiberia2bsy5.jpg

Then the smaller one you can put in a sig banner with other ones too:
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6347/logoiberia1smallko9.jpg

And if you like userbars instead, here is that:
https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4459/userlusotannan1ts7.gif

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.

Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

[Justiciar]

Bloody hell teh sexeh. :dizzy2:

[Dram]

im blown away by how sweet this is dude

absolutely awesome

is the Loricati Scutari on the left... the one wearing the roman style armour as apposed to the bronze scale, is that a unit for other factions to recruit if they conquer the Lusitanian region?

im really excited now, cant wait for 0.8 :beam:

[Sdragon]

Great stuff! Iberia just became interesting, it'll be a heck of a steup from the last build.

[Antagonist]

Very nice, the quality of the unit graphics themselves is top-notch, can't wait to see them in-game.

I find the names etc. very interesting also. I always meant to ask why EB's Iberian units had such latin-sounding names, these ones sound a lot more indigenous. The "ann" has a vaguely Q-Celtic ring to it.

Any chance of seeing some faction or unit descriptions though? Or will we have to wait? Hopefully not for too long. :book:

Antagonist

[MSB]

:thumbsup:
Now get back to work!

[iberus_generalis]

Go EB!!! GO EB!!!

Viva o Orgulho Luso!! há mais de dois mil anos a desafiar as potencias invasoras!!=)
Long live the Lusitanian Pride!! For more than two Thousand years defying incoming invanding powers!!=)
give them what they need!! =)
how lucky i was for me to come to the net before going to the university city...=) go EB!!!

BTW will we replace the iberia faction or are we gonna be another faction in iberia? it would be fun to have two factions here=)

now im definetly going on to 0.8...just hope there are at least 47 model slots for the units i added to my 0.74.... this just got interesting=)

where can i get a banner of this new faction? i wanna show off my pride in being a descendent of this people...

[Geoffrey S]

Beautiful! Glad Iberia finally has a proper faction.

[Birka Viking]

Realy nice....:2thumbsup:

[Justiciar]

is the Loricati Scutari on the left... the one wearing the roman style armour as apposed to the bronze scale, is that a unit for other factions to recruit if they conquer the Lusitanian region?
They're the Carthaginian version. It says as much at the top of the picture.

[scourgeofrome]

Nice.Now get back to work :computer: :whip: (I just love using these smilies):laugh4:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Go EB!!! GO EB!!!

Viva o Orgulho Luso!! há mais de dois mil anos a desafiar as potencias invasoras!!=)
Long live the Lusitanian Pride!! For more than two Thousand years defying incoming invanding powers!!=)
give them what they need!! =)
how lucky i was for me to come to the net before going to the university city...=) go EB!!!

BTW will we replace the iberia faction or are we gonna be another faction in iberia? it would be fun to have two factions here=) Replacement. For another Iberian confederation, wait for EB2 for M2TW.


now im definetly going on to 0.8...just hope there are at least 47 model slots for the units i added to my 0.74.... this just got interesting=) Hehehehe... :grin:

Sabia bem que não ficarias desiludido... :wink:

[Dram]

They're the Carthaginian version. It says as much at the top of the picture.

i must of lost myself in my excitement, thanks.

[Olaf The Great]

What are those units that look like Cataphracts on Foot?


And how will the Lancarii unit compare to Cataphracts?

Also can you give us the stats on the units?


You know what?
Screw Saka Rauka!
I'm using the Lustianii!

[Olaf The Great]

One more thing.
How many levels of cities will "babarians" and Semi-Barbarians(Like the lustianni)
Same with cesspools and such.
Could a Barb Civ turn into a "civilized nation"
Either way I'm tryin' because The lustiannii should have conquered like the Romans.....

What a world that would be....

[Urnamma]

In EB, the Germans are the only majorly uncivilized faction, with possibly the sarmatians as a close second. The rest have some (mainly large) degree of civilization.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What are those units that look like Cataphracts on Foot?They are the foot bodyguards and last ditch elite unit of the Vasci kings in northeastern Iberia. They were hand picked veteran warriors. The Vasci were the inventors of a type of armour that used small scales overlapping high-quality mail. It was extremelly effective as armour but heavy and proibitivelly expensive. So, only the most reliable and closest men to the king were equipped with it.

Later Romans used this invention as a basis to create their Lorica Plumata. Scales grew even smaller and the armour became even more perfected.

The Iverni, descendants of the Vasci - invaders of southern Hibernia (Ireland) - also used this type of armour among their most elite warriors. These men very often became mercenaires fighting for the best paying Hibernian chieftain. They gained legendary status in Ireland and were known as "noble black warriors" due to the colour of their equipement and their martial prowess. In Hibernia this armour was called Ceannlann ("Fish-Scales") as opposed to the more usual and less effective large scale coats called Iobarlann ("Scale-Jacket").


And how will the Lancarii unit compare to Cataphracts?Lanceari, not Lancarii. As is visible they will be less armoured than any other cata, but with a pretty high morale due to the usual fierceness of the Iberians and to their elite status.


Also can you give us the stats on the units?Nope.


You know what?
Screw Saka Rauka!
I'm using the Lustianii!Hehehe... :grin:

[abou]

Ha! I knew it would be a faction in Iberia - and what an amazing one too!

[Lusitani]

I am ....speechless...is it ok if i shed a couple of tears of pure joy and happyness? :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:
LOL...AWSOME !!!!!!!!!!
We shall rule the ancient world :laugh4:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Barbs have four city levels now.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I am ....speechless...is it ok if i shed a couple of tears of pure joy and happyness? :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:
LOL...AWSOME !!!!!!!!!!
We shall rule the ancient world :laugh4:Ainda bem que estás contente. Esta preview é um pouco dedicada aos "descendentes" dos Lusitanos... :smiley:

[iberus_generalis]

já nao somos tao poucos assim...povoemos o mundo do RTW e matemos os romanos k nos dominaram por tanto tempo, e nos mataram que nem gado depois da nossa conquista....=):whip: :yes: :laugh4:
just kiding, i was trying to make a small addon for EB with the units from ITW a while back ago but sarcasm said they were not that good, so i stoped trying...still use them though, and hope i can import some later into 0.8 and further widen the Lusitannan pool=) i wish i could model so i could help you guys showing our glorious past in the classic age...

translation: we are not so few as it seems=), let's populate the world of RTW and kill the romans that dominated us for so long, and killed us like sheep after our conquest=) :whip; :yes: :laugh4:
just kiding, i was trying to make a small addon for EB with the units from ITW a while back ago but sarcasm said they were not that good, so i stoped trying...still use them though, and hope i can import some later into 0.8 and further widen the Lusitannan pool=) i wish i could model so i could help you guys showing our glorious past in the classic age...

[Lusitani]

Ainda bem que estás contente. Esta preview é um pouco dedicada aos "descendentes" dos Lusitanos... :smiley:

Já tava na altura de deixarmos de ser o patinho feio não? :)

[Kull]

In one fell swoop, the second-to-worst v.74 EB faction has become one of the elite. (Not that this happened overnight, mind you) :2thumbsup:

Aymar has done great work across the mod, but it's not too hard to figure out where his heart lies, eh?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

já nao somos tao poucos assim...povoemos o mundo do RTW e matar os romanos k nos dominaram por tanto tempo, e nos mataram que nem gado depois da nossa conquista....=):whip: :yes: :laugh4:Hehehe... :grin:

Também acabaram por se misturar com os Lusitanos. Tal como fizeram em todo o lado. E depois vieram os Visigodos e Suevos e misturaram-se também. E finalmente as várias etnicidades dos invasores muçulmanos. Portanto os Portugueses hoje em dia não se podem identificar exactamente com os Lusitanos em termos étnicos e muito menos em termos culturais...


just kiding, i was trying to make a small addon for EB with the units from ITW a while back ago but sarcasm said they were not that good, so i stoped trying...still use them though, and hope i can import some later into 0.8 and further widen the Lusitannan pool=) i wish i could model so i could help you guys showing our glorious past in the classic age...Well, these units are just 60% of the factional units for Lusotana as well as some of the regionals. There are still a lot of other regionals to be made. Specially for the northern regions, so you won't have to worry about lack of variety even if you don't add those ITW units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Já tava na altura de deixarmos de ser o patinho feio não? :)Hahaha!! :laugh4:

Dizes isso porque ainda não viste o estado de outra facção que aqui temos. Mas não temas. Todas as facções serão bem representadas. Está nos nossos planos desde que fundámos o mod há quase 3 anos...

[Lusitani]

Hehehe... :grin:

Também acabaram por se misturar com os Lusitanos. Tal como fizeram em todo o lado. E depois vieram os Visigodos e Suevos e misturaram-se também. E finalmente as várias etnicidades dos invasores muçulmanos. Portanto os Portugueses hoje em dia não se podem identificar exactamente com os Lusitanos em termos étnicos e muito menos em termos culturais...


Na verdade e segundo um estudo de DNA recente os genes(linhagem masculina...de pai pa filho, não sei como é em relação aos genes herdados das mães) q predominam são sefarditas e norte africanos(berberes), curiosamente estes ultimos abundam no norte de Portugal e com uma implantação cronologica anterior à invasão arabe...
Atenção eu disse que predominavam...não disse que eram os únicos...antes q começem a espingardar :)

[soibean]

you said that the germans and sarmatae were the least civilized of all the barbarian factions. What about the casse? I can see how the iberian tribes were influenced by carthage and greek colonies, gaulic tribes by rome, greek colonies, and dacia by Greece, but what kind of knowledge would the casse have acquired and from where?
I guess to better restate that question: When you say a civ is the least civilized, how are you comparing it to the other civs? Sanitation, road systems, education?

[iberus_generalis]

ker dizer k somos todos mouros? buuh.. lol, mas isso e contra intuitivo.... n sera antes k os norte africanos tenham os nossos pk alguns lusitanos tenham fugido pa la?e k se e anterior algo n bate certo na historia.... ou entao as invasoes mouras sao anteriores a data k temos aprendido na historia... entao os os genes referentes aos suevos e ostrogodos? eos referentes a romanos e a lusitanos? ond posso ler esse estudo? e k uma das minhas areas de interesse e precisamente a genetica... dizei ai po ppl poder ler=)

tranlation from the portuguese: do you mean that we are all moorish= buuh lol, but that counter intuitive, can't it be that the northern african have our genes cuz some lusitanii run to northe africa? it's because if those genes are here from before the moorish invasions of Iberia, than there is something not right in this story... can it be that the date the teach us in school is not right and the moors invaded sooner? and where are the roman, suevi, and ostrogoth genes? and the ones referent to the lusitani themselves? where can we read this paper? because one of the areas of interests is precisely Genetics...please do say for us ppl to read it=)

[MSB]

Since when was this the "talk Spanish/Portuguese thread"?

[keravnos]

In EB, the Germans are the only majorly uncivilized faction, with possibly the sarmatians as a close second. The rest have some (mainly large) degree of civilization.

As per reality. Let's not forget that the word "barbarian" originally meant "he who isn't Greek". In roman times it became the derigatory word it is today.

Oh, and now I can publically claim that I plan to take those Lusitani Ninjas, Foot cataphracts and the whole lot of those magnificent units and RULE THE WORLD... They deffinitely are some of the most beautiful units I have seen.

[iberus_generalis]

hey don't start with the english talking thread argument, i posted a translation to my post=P don't start ok? english speakers often show the pride they have on their language, and nobody starts flaming... why can't we portuguese do the same a little bit?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

you said that the germans and sarmatae were the least civilized of all the barbarian factions. What about the casse? I can see how the iberian tribes were influenced by carthage and greek colonies, gaulic tribes by rome, greek colonies, and dacia by Greece, but what kind of knowledge would the casse have acquired and from where?Actually, the oldest road system in Europe was made by the Celts. Actually they also invented soap while the "civilized" Romans and Hellenes cleansed their skin with far more primitive methods. Actually, Rome (specially) and Hellas were greatly influenced by the Celts.

The Tartessanian Kingdom of southern Iberia was very advanced before the arrival of the Cathaginians. Their cities with stone buildings and stone fortresses attest to this. Their high degree of art and artisanship was not only extremelly original as well as intricate and avanced.

In regard to tech achievemets do I need to remind you that the best armourers and blacksmiths of ancient times were Iberian? Do I need to remind you that the gladius's complete name is actually gladius hispanniensis?

And I can go on and on...


I guess to better restate that question: When you say a civ is the least civilized, how are you comparing it to the other civs? Sanitation, road systems, education?Precisely. What is your definition of civilized?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Na verdade e segundo um estudo de DNA recente os genes(linhagem masculina...de pai pa filho, não sei como é em relação aos genes herdados das mães) q predominam são sefarditas e norte africanos(berberes), curiosamente estes ultimos abundam no norte de Portugal e com uma implantação cronologica anterior à invasão arabe...
Atenção eu disse que predominavam...não disse que eram os únicos...antes q começem a espingardar :)Tenho de ver de onde vem esse estudo. Embora se perceba porque isso pode acontecer:

-Houve muitas migrações norte-sul e vice-versa através do estreito de Gibraltar muito antes da idade do bronze e mesmo durante, portanto não é estranho a identificação genética comum.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Since when was this the "talk Spanish/Portuguese thread"?Portuguese, please. I see no "crap" Castillian language here... :shifty:

[iberus_generalis]

yyes..if it wasn't for us iberians the world would be a lot diferent than we see it today... if it wasn't us, carthage would have taken rome in the first punic war, rome would nevre have had the gladius, and the scutum, and so on... we tend to be underestimated, but truth be said, much that is considered roman, was invented by us...=) besides, we taught rome what was fear, and terror, in our semi arid lands, irregular terrain, and fearsome warriors=)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

hey don't start with the english talking thread argument, i posted a translation to my post=P don't start ok? english speakers often show the pride they have on their language, and nobody starts flaming... why can't we portuguese do the same a little bit?Nice reply... :thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

yyes..if it wasn't for us iberians the world would be a lot diferent than we see it today... if it wasn't us, carthage would have taken rome in the first punic war, rome would nevre have had the gladius, and the scutum, and so on... we tend to be underestimated, but truth be said, much that is considered roman, was invented by us...=) besides, we taught rome what was fear, and terror, in our semi arid lands, irregular terrain, and fearsome warriors=)Not the scutum. This was a variation of a Samnite design itself influnced by Celtic shields.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

He's certainly talking about the posts that have no english at all, and they were getting numerous there. Just include something english in them at least - it's a bummer to see someone posted something new, opening the thread with a slow connection, and then seeing that you can't read a single word of it. :laugh4:

[iberus_generalis]

don't flame the castellano=p, i may be portuguese in birth, but im 1/4 castellano=) but my heart lies completely on the portuguese 3/4, although i can speak "spanish", i don't identify with them=) but nonetheless i don't understand why after so many centuries portuguese and spanish must be such rivals.. why can't we all get along? why should this rivalry exist between spanish kingdoms and portugal? even after 2000 years we still are rivaling with each other...the pre roman tribes are still alive in the culture it seems...
i thought their scutum had something to do with the shield of the Scutari.... cuz the names is really similar...

[MSB]

Portuguese, please. I see no "crap" Castillian language here... :shifty:
Well, how am I supposed to tell the difference between those two (very) foreign languages?

[iberus_generalis]

portuguese and castillan foreigner languages??? since when they are both some of the most talked languages world wide after english and french... how can that be? where are you from? i might not be that smart but i could distinguish the English from French, and french from italian and greek even if i didn't know nothing about them... Portuguese and Castillan are so diferent as the day is to the night...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

don't flame the castellano=p, i may be portuguese in birth, but im 1/4 castellano=) but my heart lies completely on the portuguese 3/4, although i can speak "spanish", i don't identify with them=) but nonetheless i don't understand why after so many centuries portuguese and spanish must be such rivals.. why can't we all get along? why should this rivalry exist between spanish kingdoms and portugal? even after 2000 years we still are rivaling with each other...the pre roman tribes are still alive in the culture it seems... Yeap. It seems so. But it's more about the language than the people. I just can't get myself to learn how to scratch my throat to make that pronounciation they have.

Besides, there are reasons for the rivalry. They have been trying to mingle in our affairs since ever... :wink:


i thought their scutum had something to do with the shield of the Scutari.... cuz the names is really similar...That is because the word scutum is the roman word for large ovoid shields and the Romans just used that word to designate those they run in to in Iberia. And from that to call the guys carrying them scutari (something like "scutum-carriers") was just a step.

[Lusitani]

Since when was this the "talk Spanish/Portuguese thread"?

Sorry got carried away :)...and btw noone's speaking spanish here :P:smash:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, how am I supposed to tell the difference between those two (very) foreign languages?Foreign? :rolleyes: That is weird since this is an international forum based on a server in the Netherlands. What is "foreign" then?

[iberus_generalis]

spanish languages as well as almost any other language is extremely easy for portuguese persons... im not going to brag, and its a scientificly aknowledge fact that portuguese ppl do to their language and its language characteristics have a lot more easyness to speak foreign languages... if i remember correctly is because our national dialect is a neutral language, wich creates no vices on the tongue, allowing its natives to acomodate more easily to new languages like english, spanish, german, french, italian, russian, and even chinese and japanese... so why can't you get your tongue to twist for spanish? personally i speak british english, american english, castillan, french and italian with no accent whatsoever, its not dificult, all you have to do is think in the language you wanna speak, and speak, and not think in portuguese, than mentally tranlate and speak... it's a trick i learned in the 5th grade with english... many ppl make the thought in portuguese, causing dificulties in the learning and expressing of the foreign language, whereas if you make the thought in the foreign language all together its easier, and faster=)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

spanish languages as well as almost any other language is extremely easy for portuguese persons... im not going to brag, and its a scientificly aknowledge fact that portuguese ppl do to their language and its language characteristics have a lot more easyness to speak foreign languages...True.


if i remember correctly is because our national dialect is a neutral language, wich creates no vices on the tongue, allowing its natives to acomodate more easily to new languages like english, spanish, german, french, italian, russian, and even chinese and japanese...Not exactly. Portuguese language has a particular advantage in that we have many sounds that aren't pronounced in any other language and we have almost all of the ones from other languages. Also, our grammar is very hard and it makes others look easy.


so why can't you get your tongue to twist for spanish?A matter of taste... :wink:


personally i speak british english, american english, castillan, french and italian with no accent whatsoever, its not dificult, all you have to do is think in the language you wanna speak, and speak, and not think in portuguese, than mentally tranlate and speak...Well, but then you're not average in regard to languages. Speaking all of those without accent is quite an achievement. I'm only fluent in English, French and I can scratch the Castillian and Italian.


it's a trick i learned in the 5th grade with english... many ppl make the thought in portuguese, causing dificulties in the learning and expressing of the foreign language, whereas if you make the thought in the foreign language all together its easier, and faster=)Yeah. I do that to. But it also depends on natural ability.

[scourgeofrome]

Can we get :focus: and enjoy the preview of these Iberian guys and telling the team to get back to work so they finish before Christmas:san_grin: (preferably Thanksgiving) is over.:ballchain: :whip:

[MSB]

Foreign? :rolleyes: That is weird since this is an international forum based on a server in the Netherlands. What is "foreign" then?
Foreign is anything that is not the native langauge that the forum was set up in. The forum was set up in English so English is the native language and all other languages are foreign.

[iberus_generalis]

well let's not start... back to topic=) can anyone post some of the infos about the buildings? will there be new 3d buildings for us? can we make textures of the barbarian huts so they look like lusitani stone houses? is this possible to make the skin idividualized with the new culture system of 1.5?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

As I have said yesterday, we cannot make 3D battlemap building different by faction, but only by culture. GUI "skins" are in the same situation. Further, we don't have ANY capability of organizing or creating or implementing any new buildings on the battlemap at this time, because we don't have anyone who is in charge of or is capable of doing it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Foreign is anything that is not the native langauge that the forum was set up in. The forum was set up in English so English is the native language and all other languages are foreign.Ok. Point taken. :yes:

[Mujalumbo]

Holy crap, those Dosidataskeli look like mad, mad dudes, man. Looks like they're tied with the Seleukid Silver Shields for toughest nuts in the game.

I'm glad the Iberian got some attention.

[Kralizec]

portuguese and castillan foreigner languages??? since when they are both some of the most talked languages world wide after english and french... how can that be? where are you from? i might not be that smart but i could distinguish the English from French, and french from italian and greek even if i didn't know nothing about them... Portuguese and Castillan are so diferent as the day is to the night...

Hehe. Not really related, but last summer I went to Mallorca on vacation. While a lot of people there could speak fluently Cattalan, Castillian, a bunch of other regional languages, Portugese, Italian...very few could speak English or German (let alone Dutch), so we ran into some trouble there :oops:
Especially when our rental car broke down :furious3:

Back on topic...looks great guys. The Lusotannan will still not likely be one of my favourite factions, but I bet I'll have some great times crossing swords with them ~;)

[soibean]

Actually, the oldest road system in Europe was made by the Celts. Actually they also invented soap while the "civilized" Romans and Hellenes cleansed their skin with far more primitive methods. Actually, Rome (specially) and Hellas were greatly influenced by the Celts.

The Tartessanian Kingdom of southern Iberia was very advanced before the arrival of the Cathaginians. Their cities with stone buildings and stone fortresses attest to this. Their high degree of art and artisanship was not only extremelly original as well as intricate and avanced.

In regard to tech achievemets do I need to remind you that the best armourers and blacksmiths of ancient times were Iberian? Do I need to remind you that the gladius's complete name is actually gladius hispanniensis?

And I can go on and on...

Precisely. What is your definition of civilized?


I had heard of the soap and road systems of the celts but I didnt know how extensive it was, or even the celtic people were, throughout briton and hibernia. I wasnt aware of the Tartessanian Kingom in Iberia, I was just guessing that they would have been influenced by the Carthiginians by this point in the game since Carthage owns southern Spain. I didn't know how early Spain's expertise in weaponry went. I knew that they were quite respectable in the middle ages but apart from that... nada.

My definition of civilized... I was actually asking what the EB people meant by this and threw out those examples. I consider being civilized as having a legit educational system, health system, transportation system ( same examples as earlier because I know EB has buildings that focus on these areas). Apart from these, caring for and respecting one's people. I dont feel that anything outside of my own culture is uncivilized - which is how many ancient cultures felt so Im trying to talk in their mindset.

I really dont think that helped at all but... yea. I find that a tough question to ask.

[Conqueror]

Holy crap, those Dosidataskeli look like mad, mad dudes, man. Looks like they're tied with the Seleukid Silver Shields for toughest nuts in the game.

Yeah those guys just have badass written all over them. I wonder how well they can fight. Can they stand against Gaesatae?
:thinking2:

[Cheexsta]

These guys look a ton better than the current Iberian troops, and it's good to see a single tribe represented rather than an unrealistic "Iberia" faction (something that the RTR team is also stepping away from - *cough* Gauls).

Out of curiosity, though, how are the Iberian names and words devised? Are they based on a modern language that would have been similar to that of the Iberians?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

What are the evidence for cataphract like cavalry units in the Iberian peninsula?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

"Spain: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."

[iberus_generalis]

the iberian peoples were known by their fierce cavalry...the best horses in the world are originary from Portugal, they are called Lusitans, and are unique to the lusitania, legend says they were already bred in the times of the lusotannan, although historically they are said to be bred since the middle ages... a catraphact cavalry is not that ahistorical, cuz they had extremely good horses, plus they had the carthaginian and hellenic influence to the south and east...
besides the Lusitan is said by all experts to have been a War Horse in it's origin, bred only for war, and thus is known by his ferocity, and lack of fear, making him the horse of choice to bullfighting, and most hippic sports around the world...

the downside is that this strong horses take some time to train, and are only bred in Portugal, in some few latifundia, we call "Herdades"... if you think this is by some chance Bullcrap, and that im exagerating, i advice you to look it up in Wikipedia, Google where ever you want=)

but back to the cavalry of the iberian ppl, well, the romans learned quite a few tricks with us, and soon the elite cavalry of the republic and empire, only used horses bred in lusitania... than the middle ages came, but still the iberian cavalry had quite the renown(jinetes from MTW anyone?), and the portuguese lusitan horse, as well as some other spanish breeds-most of wich were lost through the centuries- granted their place in history, in battles like the Battle of Aljubarrota and others, there was really a type of cavalry called Jinetes that harassed infantary at a distance... but anyway the Iberic Cavalry, spanish or Portuguese, was always and through the centuries a force to be reckoned with, medium to heavy and really mobile...

so yes, if you ask me, a catraphact cavalry unit is somewhat realistic for the iberian factions....=) i thought it was intriguing there was none in 0.74..well destiny corrected that=) :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I had heard of the soap and road systems of the celts but I didnt know how extensive it was, or even the celtic people were, throughout briton and hibernia.Well, there you have it. Historians/archeologists have discovered a long while ago that the fact that most records are Roman/Hellenic tend to not tell the whole story and/or tell the whole truth. Reporting/registering events in ancient times had a high degree of political agenda in it - which is to say, in many ways, bias. Remember the phrase "The adopted morality is the winner's morality."

In regard to specifics, the Celtic road system was in widespread use. It might have been based upon earlier work by prior local inhabitants in many cases. Remains of it have been found in far places as Ireland, Belgium and western France. It consisted of wide (up to 4m) and thick (up to 30cm) plates of weather resistant wood over a foundation of compacted earth and stone, IIRC. It was clearly used by horse pulled cars.

Celtic civilizational advancements can be seen in other places that correspond better to the Roman/Hellenic-centric way of thinking about "civilized" achievements. Places like the vast city/fortress (oppida) of Bibracte or Gergovia. In many of these towns and urban centers real industrial and trade emplacements flourished and were part of a vast network of productive industry that served the needs of all of Gaul and beyond. Rich jewlery, raw metals, weapons, armours, etc...

But imports were just as important as exports. Some very expensive imports were also made. I saw one that was an enormous amphora-shaped container of wine made entirelly in bronze and richly adorned that was specifically ordered to an italian artisan for a high nobility Celtic woman - probably someone very important in Gallic society. It was 1,70m tall and about 1 meter wide!!

But part of this widespread trade can be seen in a funny example:


Do you know what nation was the main foreign importer of wine from Italy during the time period of EB until GJ Caeser's conquest of Gaul?

No? Well, Gaul was.


Do you know the reason the Romans had to keep increasing their wine production to new levels?

No? Well, once again Gaul was. They really liked wine and the italic peninsula was, has is today, a great producer of wine.


And do you know why the Romans wanted to sell to the "barbarians" and why later Caeser exploited a civil war to conquer Gaul?

No? Well, paraphrasing Terry Jones, because the Gauls were "loaded" with gold.


Yes, part of the widespread industry I've talked about consisted on the exploration of over 100 mines of several metals, with many of those being mines of gold.


I wasn't aware of the Tartessanian Kingom in Iberia, I was just guessing that they would have been influenced by the Carthiginians by this point in the game since Carthage owns southern Spain. I didn't know how early Spain's expertise in weaponry went. I knew that they were quite respectable in the middle ages but apart from that... nada.Well, not really since the Tartesanian kingdom is older than the Carthaginian establishments in the peninsula and they ocuppy slightly different regions. In fact, it is the rise of carthaginian power and its influence on trade, as well as its establishment of alliances in the peninsula that really hurts the rule and influence of this kingdom among it's neighbours. It's decay starts preciselly because of Carthage's presence. Before, they were the big boss in the area, but after that the shift of power moves to the cartaghinian controled areas.

If you can read more here:

Tartessos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos)

If you can read spanish (castillian) you can find more info here (if you can't just check some of the pictures):

LA ESPAÑA PROTOHISTÓRICA (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber_01020_iberia_protohist_01.htm)

TARTESSOS: SUS FUENTES (http://www.dearqueologia.com/tartesos_fuentes.htm)

TARTESSOS

El enigma histórico de Tartessos, la mítica ciudad-imperio de la Edad Antigua. (http://www.andalucia.cc/adn/0597doc.htm)

TARTESSOS (http://www.antropos.galeon.com/html/tartessos.htm#intr)

Tartessos (http://perso.wanadoo.es/emilio10/tartessos.htm)


My definition of civilized... I was actually asking what the EB people meant by this and threw out those examples. I consider being civilized as having a legit educational system, health system, transportation system ( same examples as earlier because I know EB has buildings that focus on these areas). Apart from these, caring for and respecting one's people. I dont feel that anything outside of my own culture is uncivilized - which is how many ancient cultures felt so Im trying to talk in their mindset.

I really dont think that helped at all but... yea. I find that a tough question to ask.Indeed it is.

As you can see from what I mentioned above, in regard to tranportation, trade and industry I think we can say the Celts were fairly advanced and surprisingly "civilized" for us Roman-Hellenic cultural heirs.

As for Iberians, no traces of an advanced transportation system were found but their art and metal industry was very advanced. They traded a lot but it was probably more limited in terms of sheer volume due to the aparent lack of a large scale transport system.

What can we say of the Celts and Iberians in regard to the other civilizational terms you mentioned above?

The Celtic educational system was advanced but very different from the Roman/Hellenic one. They relied on oral tradition because they despised the written word - they thought it was as an impedement to a good developement of the tought process and the accumulation of memories. Although for trade and storage records they also wrote. They rellied in the druidic system that was linked to their religion and beliefs. The druidic system was extremelly demanding and therefore only exceptional individuals would became druids. And they took 15 years to achieve this status. The druids usually specialized in certain specific areas of knowledge. Some were the historians of the tribe, others were politicians, others philosophers and wisemen, etc... But the knowledge was not exactly restricted and people in several positions were always advised by these wise men.

IIRC, in Iberia it was different from tribe to tribe but rellied also in wisemen like the celtic druids, although knowledge was not specifically linked to a religious organization and their role, in comparation to druids, was different. They were specialized and there was not a unique central pool of knowledge. Populations were also very supersticious and all of this knowledge/religious habits/education varied quite a bit from north to south.

In regard to equality among citizens what can we say about them? Apart from the Etruscans the Italian populations did not respect women like the Celts. In Rome and Hellas they were deemed inferior. In Celtic and Iberian society they were respected. In both societies, although it is more apparent among the Celts, a women could achieve a very high position of status provided she was inteligent, brave and gathered popular consensus. Even in regard to the political arena. What does this say of the "barbaric" Celts and Iberians?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Out of curiosity, though, how are the Iberian names and words devised? Are they based on a modern language that would have been similar to that of the Iberians?It was a very tough decision the one we had to make. Due to the very sparse remains of the several Iberian languages and the even more sparse remains of the Lusitani one we had to go for a mix of Indo-European Lusitani words and constructions and Proto-Celtic. Sarcasm, Anthony and Ranika can answer this much better than I can since I am no linguist but it was a very, very hard job to achieve. We are, however, happy with the results and hope you like them.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What are the evidence for cataphract like cavalry units in the Iberian peninsula?https://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6486/ebookenglishospreymaa18ms8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)https://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6385/ebookenglishospreymaa180romesenemies4spanisharmies36pol8.jpghttp://img133.exs.cx/img133/136/15mp.jpg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

"Spain: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."Sorry...

"Iberia: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."

Spain did not exist until the marriage between Fernand of Aragon and Isabel of Castille in 1469.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Sorry...

"Iberia: where large armies starve and small armies disappear."

Spain did not exist until the marriage between Fernand of Aragon and Isabel of Castille in 1469.

Actually that was a quote from Napoleon's time, concerning the historical problems involved in taking the Iberian pennisula by force.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Actually that was a quote from Napoleon's time, concerning the historical problems involved in taking the Iberian pennisula by force.Well, then I'm wrong! Sorry... :embarassed:

I thought that was a contemporary Roman quote like the one from GJ Caeser:

"In the west of Hispannia there is a people who does not rule itself, nor does it let itself be ruled by another."

[NeoSpartan]

Finaly IBERIA has a faction I can play! I can now go and play with the faction of my great-grandparents (both mother and father side).

They were all from Galicia Espana! :spain: :yes:

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/Neospartan/mapa.jpg

:knight:.....:horn:...... :charge:....... :boxing:.....:viking:.....:boxing:

[Olaf The Great]

They are the foot bodyguards and last ditch elite unit of the Vasci kings in northeastern Iberia. They were hand picked veteran warriors. The Vasci were the inventors of a type of armour that used small scales overlapping high-quality mail. It was extremelly effective as armour but heavy and proibitivelly expensive. So, only the most reliable and closest men to the king were equipped with it.

Later Romans used this invention as a basis to create their Lorica Plumata. Scales grew even smaller and the armour became even more perfected.

The Iverni, descendants of the Vasci - invaders of southern Hibernia (Ireland) - also used this type of armour among their most elite warriors. These men very often became mercenaires fighting for the best paying Hibernian chieftain. They gained legendary status in Ireland and were known as "noble black warriors" due to the colour of their equipement and their martial prowess. In Hibernia this armour was called Ceannlann ("Fish-Scales") as opposed to the more usual and less effective large scale coats called Iobarlann ("Scale-Jacket").

Lanceari, not Lancarii. As is visible they will be less armoured than any other cata, but with a pretty high morale due to the usual fierceness of the Iberians and to their elite status.

Nope.

Hehehe... :grin:
1:So their the general units?
Thanks for the information.
2:Yeah, I've been playing IB for a while now...
3:Awh....
4:Heheheheh..

[Olaf The Great]

I have a bit of Spanish in me.
My dads side is pure Icelandic since 967, before it was Norwegian.
My Mothers side is half Icelandic, and half Boston, and my American Grandpa is split between Irish and Spanish(or Portugese I'm not sure)

So theres a chance I'm descended from both Vikings,Lustianni, and then the Scotti.

And then the Scotti are related to the the Iberian tribes who..


Man ancestry is confusing...

[Anthony]

The Scotti aren't even a people really, I hate the way people use the term. Scotti was a derogatory Romano-British word for a collection of Irish tribes, and was eventually used in Latin to describe all Gaels (like the king of Ireland in the middle ages was the Scotorum Imperator). However, it's rather inappropriate to say one descends from the Scotti if for nothing else than it doesn't really imply who you descend from. Not all who were culturally Gaels were of Iberian descent. Many would be Gaelicized Britons and Belgae who inhabitted Ireland and wouldn't have had many Iberian ancestors. Also, the first tribes designated Scotti probably weren't very Iberian. The most Iberian influenced tribes were largely southern, where we find their graves and such in an Iberian manner similar to those in Galicia and Asturia.

[vizigothe]

A nice discussion happening here! And it was half on topic. Amazing! Good job guys :D

[Olaf The Great]

The Scotti aren't even a people really, I hate the way people use the term. Scotti was a derogatory Romano-British word for a collection of Irish tribes, and was eventually used in Latin to describe all Gaels (like the king of Ireland in the middle ages was the Scotorum Imperator). However, it's rather inappropriate to say one descends from the Scotti if for nothing else than it doesn't really imply who you descend from. Not all who were culturally Gaels were of Iberian descent. Many would be Gaelicized Britons and Belgae who inhabitted Ireland and wouldn't have had many Iberian ancestors. Also, the first tribes designated Scotti probably weren't very Iberian. The most Iberian influenced tribes were largely southern, where we find their graves and such in an Iberian manner similar to those in Galicia and Asturia.
So much learning.
I meant anywhere in the Irish Island.

[HamilcarBarca]

Just a short note to say well done! The Iberian units are fantastic - and its nice to see the Iberian heavy cavalry properly portrayed (as per the depictions on the Liria pottery). I was a tiny bit dissapointed to see the elite Carthaginian-Iberian foot wear scale mail and roman-style helmets, rather than classic Iberian scale-mail, but I can see why you would do that - it means that that unit can encompass the "refitting" in Roman-style gear that Hannibal did with his Spanish veterans.

The Lusitanians will be an exciting faction, and I hope they bring some competition to the Iberian Peninsula.

I assume that the 'rebel' factions like the Tartessians, Edetani and Carpetanians will have these same skins.

Good Job!

Now Hurry Up and release .08!

H.

[keravnos]

I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own. With Qarthadastim and Hellenic influence being really high and the quality of horses found in Lusotann, it is a logical evolution, backed by facts on the ground.
Besides, why would the Roman empire station troops in Hispania province so many hundreds of Kilometers behind its borders? For a vacation?
It is not just plain luck that the first Roman emperor thatwas born outside of Italia, which is also the best Roman emperor in my view. TRAJAN. He was from the iberian peninsula.

[Zalmoxis]

Nice preview, makes me want to play as the faction after I finish a Getai campaign.

[CountArach]

Woah! Once again, you show why you are beyond any doubt, the best!

[Dooz]

Wow, this is better than M2TW, which had consumed my soul this past week. "EB" has become synonymous with "best thing ever". Now, the only problem is the explosion of the mind that will occur when EB2 comes out for M2.... I mean it's a big problem...... certain death. CERTAIN DEATH!!! :fainting:

[Obelics]

hallo, much compliment to lusitanian people for this preview, i have a question, will it be another iberian faction, or the lusitanian will be the only iberian faction?
thanks!

ps better than m2tw

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Finaly IBERIA has a faction I can play! I can now go and play with the faction of my great-grandparents (both mother and father side).

They were all from Galicia Espana! :spain: :yes:

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/Neospartan/mapa.jpg

:knight:.....:horn:...... :charge:....... :boxing:.....:viking:.....:boxing:Huuu... :inquisitive: Sorry to disapoint you, but the Galaecians of this time difered quite a bit from the Lusitani. They were far more influenced by Celtic culture and had a somewhat different look. You will be able to see this when we insert the Galaecian units that are planned.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

1:So their the general units?No, because the faction is the Lusitani and these are regionals from another area. Therefore they will be recruitable in 1 province at the highest MIC level and be damn expensive. The Lusitani BG will be horsemen - heavy cavalry.


Thanks for the information.No problem. :smiley:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Just a short note to say well done! The Iberian units are fantastic - and its nice to see the Iberian heavy cavalry properly portrayed (as per the depictions on the Liria pottery). Thanks. :pleased:


I was a tiny bit dissapointed to see the elite Carthaginian-Iberian foot wear scale mail and roman-style helmets, You mean ring or chain mail?!... :confused:


rather than classic Iberian scale-mail, but I can see why you would do that - it means that that unit can encompass the "refitting" in Roman-style gear that Hannibal did with his Spanish veterans.Preciselly. That was our purpose. :yes:


I assume that the 'rebel' factions like the Tartessians, Edetani and Carpetanians will have these same skins.The 'rebel' factions will use the Eleutheroi (Independent States) skin.


Good Job! Thanks.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own.Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.

1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.

2)The Lusotan armies were light, fast and had a outstanding ability to spring ambushes in mountainous areas and most of its warfare was based on that. Tell me the usefullness of a heavy cataphract in a rocky mountainous place.

3)The Iberian cataphracts are older than the Roman presence in the peninsula. In fact, it is probable that their creation is contemporary with the first Carthaginian settlements in the Iberian Peninsula.


With Qarthadastim and Hellenic influence being really high and the quality of horses found in Lusotann, it is a logical evolution, backed by facts on the ground.Except when it was the other way around. It is very likely that, based on several text excerpts and archeological finds, the veil mails that the Dosidataskeli used impressed seriously the Greek colonists that fought them. There are written records of this. Progressivelly, this influence traveled across the mediterranean and was actually adopted by the Seleucids for their highest elite foot units as the in-game Thorakitai Argyraspidai tries to demonstrate.


Besides, why would the Roman empire station troops in Hispania province so many hundreds of Kilometers behind its borders? For a vacation?

It is not just plain luck that the first Roman emperor thatwas born outside of Italia, which is also the best Roman emperor in my view. TRAJAN. He was from the iberian peninsula. "First to be invaded, last to be conquered."

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Nice preview, makes me want to play as the faction after I finish a Getai campaign.:smiley:

Woah! Once again, you show why you are beyond any doubt, the best!:smiley:

Wow, this is better than M2TW, which had consumed my soul this past week. "EB" has become synonymous with "best thing ever". Now, the only problem is the explosion of the mind that will occur when EB2 comes out for M2.... I mean it's a big problem...... certain death. CERTAIN DEATH!!! :fainting::laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:



In name of all the guys that worked on the faction and helped build this preview, thanks everyone for your comments. :2thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

hallo, much compliment to lusitanian people for this preview, i have a question, will it be another iberian faction, or the lusitanian will be the only iberian faction?
thanks!It is a replacement. For a competing Iberian faction you'll have to wait for EB2 in the M2TW engine.


ps better than m2tw:pleased: :bow:

[cunctator]

I think horse armor fragments have been found in Iberia. Which means that either Romani used Cataphracts to subdue the Iberian peoples, and especially the Lusotan, or that Lusotann used them for their own.

Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.

1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.


A small addition:

Roman cataphracts appeared even later in history. The first known Roman cataphract unit is "Ala I Gallorum et Pannoniorum catafracta", from an inscription (CIL 11, 05632 ) metioning it's existence in Hadrianic times (ca. 118 -136 AD), after the first wars with sarmatians on the danube frontier and Trajan's parthian war. One thing that can probably be credited to be a result of carrhae and the first Roman parthian wars is the introduction of horse archers into the Roman army.

[Watchman]

I'll just say that those models/skins/whatever are Da Bomb. :rtwyes: But am I seeing things or is that Iovamann dude armed with fire-hardened wooden spears or something ? Kinda Stone Age, isn't that ? :stunned:

That aside, I recall there being something called Scutarii Incursii mentioned in the .74 DMB with the Thorakitai Argyraspidai entry. Those Dosi... dosi... heavy elite guys whose name I can't stop spelling wouldn't have any relation to that ?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'll just say that those models/skins/whatever are Da Bomb. :rtwyes: Hehehe... :grin: Thanks. :smiley:


But am I seeing things or is that Iovamann dude armed with fire-hardened wooden spears or something ? Kinda Stone Age, isn't that ? :stunned: Fire-hardned javelins actually. Called sude by the Lusitani. It might sound a bit like stone age equipement but it was really used in this period by the lowest of the Lusitani warriors. And that is what they are: poor shepperds leavied to fight in an emergency. So, they just prepared a few wodden sticks, packed up and went away. My advice in their use is never ever make them fight in hand-to-hand combat except when you're in dire straits. Any other units will just turn them in to grinded meat - provided they don't rout sooner than that. They are good to perform ambushes, throw a few sude into the enemy and run like hell... :wink:


That aside, I recall there being something called Scutarii Incursii mentioned in the .74 DMB with the Thorakitai Argyraspidai entry. Those Dosi... dosi... heavy elite guys whose name I can't stop spelling wouldn't have any relation to that ?Dosidataskeli. Yes. They are the exact same. But since we are only using latin names for southern Iberians and these are northern Iberian warriors, we have changed their name to a more adequate language.

[Anthony]

Fire hardened wood was still used fairly commonly by some cultures among lower warriors, more particularly among those for who iron was expensive (Germans for example) or not needed in their day-to-day work for a weapon. It's quite appropriate for poor Lusitanian herdsmen, who'd probably not have a clutch of javelins or the like. Fire-hardened javelins would be cheap, quicker to make, and more reasonably part of their war gear than iron-tipped javelins.

Edit; Aymar beat me to it. But I'll add this (in a second edit no less); compare it to the levies of Celts. Celts guaranteed able-bodied adults a spear and often a shield of some sort in every village and farmstead, and some places gave them darts or javelins. They were incredibly rich in the ancient world and had a massive surplus of iron. It was, as such, easy for them to have iron headed weapons for every combatant. The same couldn't be said of many other places, even those with good iron supply, but lacking any guarantee that there would be weapons for everyone.

[keravnos]

Sorry, but you're totally off the mark.

1) The Romans only got interested in cataphracts after they had run into trouble against the Parthians near the time of Carrae.

2)The Lusotan armies were light, fast and had a outstanding ability to spring ambushes in mountainous areas and most of its warfare was based on that. Tell me the usefullness of a heavy cataphract in a rocky mountainous place.

3)The Iberian cataphracts are older than the Roman presence in the peninsula. In fact, it is probable that their creation is contemporary with the first Carthaginian settlements in the Iberian Peninsula.

Except when it was the other way around. It is very likely that, based on several text excerpts and archeological finds, the veil mails that the Dosidataskeli used impressed seriously the Greek colonists that fought them. There are written records of this. Progressivelly, this influence traveled across the mediterranean and was actually adopted by the Seleucids for their highest elite foot units as the in-game Thorakitai Argyraspidai tries to demonstrate.

"First to be invaded, last to be conquered."

1- Didn't the Romans bought off the Seleukids' Cataphracts prior to Carrae?

2- You got me there, none. You would need open ground.

3- That I didn't know. I always believed that Capaphracts were created at the steppes, however logical their evolution must seem. Of course they could have evolved elsewhere, I just didn't know.

So far as Thorakitai Argyraspidai is concerned, since Dosidataskeli existed before them, it could be more than just possible. And that is half the fun and half the frustration. Using incomplete evidence, we need to speculate on some stuff. On the other hand, we may see certain depictions, but we DON'T KNOW!!!

I guess that is why I love EB. Because we get to do that. Speculate (historically!)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

1- Didn't the Romans bought off the Seleukids' Cataphracts prior to Carrae?I have absolutely read no evidence - quite the contrary - of the Roman army using cataphracts before well in to the empire. Notice that I did say they got "interested" but they did not use them until much later like cunctator said. In regard to the Seleucid catas I have no idea of what the Romans might have done with them.


So far as Thorakitai Argyraspidai is concerned, since Dosidataskeli existed before them, it could be more than just possible. And that is half the fun and half the frustration. Using incomplete evidence, we need to speculate on some stuff. On the other hand, we may see certain depictions, but we DON'T KNOW!!!Well, not entirelly. Urnamma has given me evidence of this. Talk to him about it.


I guess that is why I love EB. Because we get to do that. Speculate (historically!)Less than you might think.

[iberus_generalis]

i relation those stories ppl the ribatejo region that the Lusitan horse as i refered earlier, and it's connection to the horses used by the Lusotannan can we assume it's true? cuz although this is a muscled horse, and a big, imponent type of horse, i don't seem to see it being used as ambush, although i know it can be used as a light horse, and his great speed could allow lusotannan to use them, or at least their proto ancestors... cuz although there is the legend that the lusotannan bred the lusitan horse for the first, here in my region (santarém, flood plain/lusitan area) i can't find anything that supports it on the net... maybe any of you historians dedicated to our ancestor may know something???

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

i relation those stories ppl the ribatejo region that the Lusitan horse as i refered earlier, and it's connection to the horses used by the Lusotannan can we assume it's true? cuz although this is a muscled horse, and a big, imponent type of horse, i don't seem to see it being used as ambush, although i know it can be used as a light horse, and his great speed could allow lusotannan to use them, or at least their proto ancestors... cuz although there is the legend that the lusotannan bred the lusitan horse for the first, here in my region (santarém, flood plain/lusitan area) i can't find anything that supports it on the net... maybe any of you historians dedicated to our ancestor may know something???I know little of the relation between the present day and ancient times Iberian horse breeds. But I do know that the Iberian horses were even more famed for its characteristics in those days than they are now.

One note though: these catas were exclusive to the tribes in the area of the Edetani and Bastestani of southeastern Iberia. If you are implying the Ribatejo one's has their descendants you're off the mark. Lusitani never had such heavily armoured horsemen or horses.

[iberus_generalis]

WTF??? alentejo??? since when? the genuine lusitans are bred around the Tagus River, in Ribatejo!! =) Alentejo is good, don't get me wrong, but the genuine Lusitan Horse is Ribatejano....=) loling... i know that in later years lusitan horses have started being bred in Alentejo, but the most important Horse farm for Lusitan Horses in the country and the world are in Ribatejo=)

[Olaf The Great]

No, because the faction is the Lusitani and these are regionals from another area. Therefore they will be recruitable in 1 province at the highest MIC level and be damn expensive. The Lusitani BG will be horsemen - heavy cavalry.

No problem. :smiley:
So...What IS the Lustani General Unit?
Those fancy smancy Cataphract Units?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

WTF??? alentejo??? since when? the genuine lusitans are bred around the Tagus River, in Ribatejo!! =) Alentejo is good, don't get me wrong, but the genuine Lusitan Horse is Ribatejano....=) loling... i know that in later years lusitan horses have started being bred in Alentejo, but the most important Horse farm for Lusitan Horses in the country and the world are in Ribatejo=)Sorry. Wrote the wrong province. But the idea stands.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So...What IS the Lusitani General Unit?Noble cavalry. You'll probably see it in 0.8... :wink:


Those fancy smancy Cataphract Units?No. Those are regionals, exclusive to the southeastern Iberian regions. They represent the elite cavalry forces of the Bastestani and Edetani tribes.

[Watchman]

Fire-hardned javelins actually. Called sude by the Lusitani. It might sound a bit like stone age equipement but it was really used in this period by the lowest of the Lusitani warriors. And that is what they are: poor shepperds leavied to fight in an emergency. So, they just prepared a few wodden sticks, packed up and went away. My advice in their use is never ever make them fight in hand-to-hand combat except when you're in dire straits. Any other units will just turn them in to grinded meat - provided they don't rout sooner than that. They are good to perform ambushes, throw a few sude into the enemy and run like hell... :wink:
:inquisitive:
Cor blimey. So there are troops even more pitiable than the Akontistai and Pantodapoi...

As for the catas, I've read that bit about the Romans paying the ones the Seleucids had left to go away too. It's on the EB site unit description anyway - "They passed into history when most of the unit was bribed by Pompey during his conquest of the east. They formed the basis for the Roman cataphracts of later ages."

But then, one gets the impression just about everyone who was something in the East had at least something that could reasonably pass for a cataphract - Parthians and Armenians for sure and in quite the numbers, wouldn't be surprised if the Pontics at least tried, the short-lived Herodians are mentioned to have fielded heavily armoured cavalry, and later on Palmyrene catas gave the Romans some trouble...

I've got the impression the Romans copied theirs first from the Sarmatians (the equites cataphractii - apparently not all that elite type as they turn up as part of limitanensis regional forces towards the end of the Western Empire) and in a bit different, and heavier, version from their opponents in Asia Minor (equites clibanarii; different type of armour by what I've read, and always part of comitatenses formations if not outright palace units) though. But that's just what I recall from a couple of Osprey books.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

:inquisitive:
Cor blimey. So there are troops even more pitiable than the Akontistai and Pantodapoi...Well, these guys are on level with the Akontistai except for the hitting power of their sude which is lower than the javelins. Crap infantry with a few uses.


As for the catas, I've read that bit about the Romans paying the ones the Seleucids had left to go away too. It's on the EB site unit description anyway - "They passed into history when most of the unit was bribed by Pompey during his conquest of the east. They formed the basis for the Roman cataphracts of later ages."I see. I haven't read all of EB's texts and historical info, you know? :sweatdrop:


But then, one gets the impression just about everyone who was something in the East had at least something that could reasonably pass for a cataphract - Parthians and Armenians for sure and in quite the numbers, wouldn't be surprised if the Pontics at least tried, the short-lived Herodians are mentioned to have fielded heavily armoured cavalry, and later on Palmyrene catas gave the Romans some trouble...Yes, indeed. In the east and steppes the landscape provided ideal ground for many types of cavalry and benefits for their tactical use.


I've got the impression the Romans copied theirs first from the Sarmatians (the equites cataphractii - apparently not all that elite type as they turn up as part of limitanensis regional forces towards the end of the Western Empire) and in a bit different, and heavier, version from their opponents in Asia Minor (equites clibanarii; different type of armour by what I've read, and always part of comitatenses formations if not outright palace units) though. But that's just what I recall from a couple of Osprey books.Different climates (and also local resources) usually forced the Romans to adopt different types of armour in different places. Scale was prefered in the east as opposed to mail in the west. The cataphracts probably just followeed that tendency.

[Lusitani]

Regarding the horse talk....i seriously doubt that they used the actual Lusitan horse. The actual Lusitan is a horse that received some arabic blood and that only happened when the Moors invaded the Peninsula and added that arabic blood on both the Lusitan and the Andalusian. So i think they probably used an ancerter of these 2 breeds.

Now what they probably used was the Sorraia horse...which still exists and faces a serious extintion threat, and apparently its one of the Lusitans ancestors or the Garrano...which also still exists in the mountains to the North...which, in my far from expert opinion, makes some sense since these are mountain horses...smaller but cope very well with mountainous terrain where most of the tribes lived in their settlements( castros/ oppida), they would be also very good horses to use on ambushes and guerrilla warfare.

[HamilcarBarca]

Just a quick question. What happens to the existing array of EB7.4 "Carthage-in-Iberia" models and skins. Do these EB Preview models add or replace the existing selection of troop-types?

H.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Just a quick question. What happens to the existing array of EB7.4 "Carthage-in-Iberia" models and skins. Do these EB Preview models add or replace the existing selection of troop-types?

H.They remain as was planned from the beggining. The 0.74 existing ones are southeastern Iberian regional lower to mid-end units. The Iberi Lanceari and the Loricati Scutari are the higher-end veterans of this same region. But worry not. I intend to retouch the 0.74 ones quite a bit after I have finished the rest of the planned Iberian units.

[keravnos]

Ok, I will.

In so far as the Lusotann are concerned, I must admit that they are really underappreciated. I know you based all your units on facts, not speculation, and that is why they are so beautiful, as reality has a way of being better than any fiction.

That being said, I really believe that once 0.8 is out more people will discover this wonderful faction, explore its magnificent history and APPRECIATE their place in history. EB has never been about ROMANS, ROMANS, ROMANS and ok, maybe even GREEKS *4 and all other races as "extras in red shirts" to fill stuff.

"Barbarians" were people with just different tongue and culture. We still are :laugh4:

[Birka Viking]

Hell now most I also try to play the Lusitanians...:2thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hell now most I also try to play the Lusitanians...:2thumbsup:And you won't have to wait long to do it... :wink:

[Birka Viking]

And you won't have to wait long to do it... :wink:

LOL sounds great man!!! I have a new monster pc with a new ATI x1950xtx 512 card and Intels 6600 core2 pocessor who just want to take a bite of the new 0.8 beta..:cheerleader::balloon2: :dancing:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

LOL sounds great man!!! I have a new monster pc with a new ATI x1950xtx 512 card and Intels 6600 core2 pocessor who just want to take a bite of the new 0.8 beta..:cheerleader::balloon2: :dancing:Well, with that beast, you won't have any lag. I dare say you will have little lag by playing M2TW with that PC...

[Birka Viking]

Well, with that beast, you won't have any lag. I dare say you will have little lag by playing M2TW with that PC...

Problably not..but I wont play M2TW to EB2 is out..I dont like the medievel time age....So I will only play 0.8 when its out. And I also like acurate game play and not some fantasy stuff..:balloon2:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Problably not..but I wont play M2TW to EB2 is out..I dont like the medievel time age....Strange for a guy that calls himself Birka Viking and has a viking avatar...:dizzy2:


So I will only play 0.8 when its out. And I also like acurate game play and not some fantasy stuff..:balloon2:Then, for EB2 you're going to have to wait a bit more.

BTW, maybe our new grass (PROM's grass) will take out a few fps after all... :wink:

[Birka Viking]

Strange for a guy that calls himself Birka Viking and has a viking avatar...:dizzy2:


Then, for EB2 you're going to have to wait a bit more.

BTW, maybe our new grass (PROM's grass) will take out a few fps after all... :wink:

Iam most intrested of the time to 1066 ad when the Viking age ended with the battle of Hastings...And M2TW starts at 1080-1530 ad...and as I said that time isent realy intresting for me...

Well Iam ready to wait for it...especialy when the 0.8 comes out..lol

[Kralizec]

Random question: why do the Iberi Lanceari not wear any greaves or other armour for their legs.

It seems kinda odd to coat your entire horse in mail, wear heavy scales on your chest, and then leave the part of your own body wich is most vunerable to slashing unprotected :inquisitive:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Random question: why do the Iberi Lanceari not wear any greaves or other armour for their legs.

It seems kinda odd to coat your entire horse in mail, wear heavy scales on your chest, and then leave the part of your own body wich is most vunerable to slashing unprotected :inquisitive:Attentive, hey? :wink: Yes, they do have greaves. A lapse on my part when making the unit images. I forgot to turn that layer on.

[Kralizec]

:2thumbsup:

[Lucidus]

Tenho de ver de onde vem esse estudo. Embora se perceba porque isso pode acontecer:

-Houve muitas migrações norte-sul e vice-versa através do estreito de Gibraltar muito antes da idade do bronze e mesmo durante, portanto não é estranho a identificação genética comum.

Edit :( the link is gone)- I didn´t saw their main page,posted by Lusitani : So,here is the summary:

Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation
L. PEREIRA1, 2, M. J. PRATA1, 2 and A. AMORIM1, 2
The analysis of the hypervariable regions I and II of mitochondrial DNA in Portugal showed that this Iberian population presents a higher level of diversity than some neighbouring populations. The classification of the different sequences into haplogroups revealed the presence of all the most important European haplogroups, including those that expanded through Europe in the Palaeolithic, and those whose expansion has occurred during the Neolithic. Additionally a rather distinct African influence was detected in this Portuguese survey, as signalled by the distributions of haplogroups U6 and L, present at higher frequencies than those usually reported in Iberian populations. The geographical distributions of both haplogroups were quite different, with U6 being restricted to North Portugal whereas L was widespread all over the country. This seems to point to different population movements as the main contributors for the two haplogroup introductions. We hypothesise that the recent Black African slave trade could have been the mediator of most of the L sequence inputs, while the population movement associated with the Muslim rule of Iberia has predominantly introduced U6 lineages.

[Lusitani]

Have you guys looked at other links there?
Like this one:



What a load of crap...it just shows how uninformed some people can be...and partial

Link erased ...although i dont really see why...it was just bullshit...

[Foot]

Have you guys looked at other links there?
Like this one:

http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr22p.htm

What a load of crap...it just shows how uninformed some people can be...and partial

Man that is so full of false cause fallacies that I lost count. What a tonne of boring crap.



It only required an influx and absorption of just over ten per cent of non-White blood into mainstream Portuguese society to cause a significant shift in population make-up of that country. This shift in make-up immediately affected Portugal's position and status in the world, with its decline being clearly linked to the absorption process.


The move from the first sentence to the second seems a really large leap of imagination. However thats unfair because this is the conclusion, so lets look at the main body of text.



The absorption of the ten percent Black population into the Portuguese population also identically mirrors the disappearance of Portugal as a world power. The Portuguese of the Age of Discoveries and those of today are essentially two different peoples. The effects of the absorption of the Black slaves has retarded Portugal's history ever since. Today that country has long been acknowledged as the most backward country in Europe with an illiteracy rate of over 30 per cent.


Whaaaaat?

Foot

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, if you can't find any blame in yourself or your own actions, why not blame someone else? Preferably some minority or just anyone else who is different from you. :laugh4:

[Jolt]

Well, that link has a "whitehistory" on it that gives away all the text conclusion.

I always wondered one thing (Btw, awesome awesome units), wouldn't it be ever-so more cooler that in the Gladiator movie people would call Maximus, instead of Hispaniard, Lusitan? It would be much cooler and more realistic, since we all know which people were the strongest in Iberia. Teehee!

[Lucidus]

Disclaimer: my link is exclusively a reference to a medical article about genetic,from:

Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto.

Download the PDF and read it.

(There are no politic or racist conotations there......)
It is a cientific answer to Aymar Mauri question:


Embora se perceba porque isso pode acontecer:....

....Houve muitas migrações norte-sul e vice-versa através do estreito de Gibraltar muito antes da idade do bronze e mesmo durante, portanto não é estranho a identificação genética comum.

[Jolt]

Another thing that is quite intriguing. Since I do have quite a relatively good grasp of the Pre-Roman Era (Me being a portuguese student of archeology)
I have never seen or read anything that resembled Iberian Tribes fielding pratically "Human Tanks", namely the Dosidataskeli. What's their description? Or even better, what's their history? I mean, I would even comprehend the Iberian Colonies of Carthage might have raised several groups of those (For Carthage), but in deep wild Iberia? Never heard, never seen, never read. If Viriathus had groups of those, no wonder he managed to defeat the Romans. Hehe.

[Sarcasm]

They're not Lusitanians. And, as such, not part of the factional roster.

The most common Lusotannan unit will be a spear/javelin warrior protected only by a caetra and [maybe] a leather helmet. As you can see the vast majority of our units will be *very* lightly protected, with armour of quilted linen basically at most. Bronze helmets are a common find, but even those will be rare on our units, just to be on the safe-side and leather greaves are described as common too.

Only the very best troops will have significant metallic armour.

BTW: That site is full of crap. Even if it was true, what is really the problem and how would it be directly responsible for the fall of the Empire? These are the kinds of idiots that should be wiped out from the face of the earth.

PS: @ Jolt » Wild Iberia is such a wrong statement. *Don't* fall into that stereotype.

As for the unit itself, Ranika I suppose was the director for that unit so I'll let others explain. I'm really only responsible for the agile lusitanians.

[Jolt]

I meant "Wild" Iberia to say the areas out of the influence of "Civilized" nations.

[Sarcasm]

I meant "Wild" Iberia to say the areas out of the influence of "Civilized" nations.

I know. But it's part of this mod's objective to show that the concept of "civilization" is relative...



...Quisque Est Barbarus Alio

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Another thing that is quite intriguing. Since I do have quite a relatively good grasp of the Pre-Roman Era (Me being a portuguese student of archeology)
I have never seen or read anything that resembled Iberian Tribes fielding pratically "Human Tanks", namely the Dosidataskeli. What's their description? Or even better, what's their history? I mean, I would even comprehend the Iberian Colonies of Carthage might have raised several groups of those (For Carthage), but in deep wild Iberia? Never heard, never seen, never read. If Viriathus had groups of those, no wonder he managed to defeat the Romans. Hehe.That unit is not a Lusitani. These guys were the foot bodyguards of the Vascii kings in northern Iberia. Very few, very rare and very very expensive. As I had posted earlier in this same thread:




They were hand picked veteran warriors. The Vascii were the inventors of a type of armour that used small scales overlapping high-quality mail. It was extremelly effective as armour but heavy and proibitivelly expensive. So, only the most reliable and closest men to the king were equipped with it.

Later Romans used this invention as a basis to create their Lorica Plumata. Scales grew even smaller and the armour became even more perfected.

The Iverni, descendants of the Vascii - invaders of southern Hibernia (Ireland) - also used this type of armour among their most elite warriors. These men very often became mercenaires fighting for the best paying Hibernian chieftain. They gained legendary status in Ireland and were known as "noble black warriors" due to the colour of their equipement and their martial prowess. In Hibernia this armour was called Ceannlann ("Fish-Scales") as opposed to the more usual and less effective large scale coats called Iobarlann ("Scale-Jacket").

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I meant "Wild" Iberia to say the areas out of the influence of "Civilized" nations.And the Tartessos were what? Paleolitic savages? :inquisitive:

[Kralizec]

Have you guys looked at other links there?
Like this one:

[link]

What a load of crap...it just shows how uninformed some people can be...and partial

I know you're not endorsing them, but I think linking to them (regardless of the reason) is a breech of the rules. You may want to edit your post.

...those idiots. A small pick: Carthaginians were indo-European? LOL, maybe someone should tell them some things about the language they spoke and the general area wich they originated from.

[Jolt]

And the Tartessos were what? Paleolitic savages? :inquisitive:

Hehe. I suppose they wouldn't be within my meaning of "Wild" Iberia.

And that's a nice bit of history I was unaware.
But is there any reknown author (Probably Roman) that mentions them?

[Lucidus]

I know you're not endorsing them, but I think linking to them (regardless of the reason) is a breech of the rules. You may want to edit your post.

...those idiots. A small pick: Carthaginians were indo-European? LOL, maybe someone should tell them some things about the language they spoke and the general area wich they originated from.


Sure,it´s done.Now ask Lusitani to edit his post:my link was not exactly the same.I didn´d read or saw their main page.(I was not aware)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hehe. I suppose they wouldn't be within my meaning of "Wild" Iberia.

And that's a nice bit of history I was unaware.
But is there any reknown author (Probably Roman) that mentions them?You mean the Dosidataskeli? Not Roman. Greek sources from the coastal cities. I believe from Emporion. It seems their hoplites fought them.

[Gazius]

This means the Lusotannan will only start with the Lusitania province in western Iberia and the former Celtiberian province will instead be a rebel allied one.

Er, how does this work? Are they simply not at war with the rebels? Actually allied?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Er, how does this work? Are they simply not at war with the rebels? Actually allied?Yes, through the clever art of our scripter: Attilius. We also can't forget the trait work of BozosLivesHere and the former responsibles and auxiliaries in these two areas. Praise them.

[soibean]

is that why the iberian faction doesnt expand? because in my romani game Ive expanded to the lands that the roman republic had except for the lands of carthage by about 265 and the Lusotannan havent moved beyond their initial province.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

is that why the iberian faction doesnt expand? because in my romani game Ive expanded to the lands that the roman republic had except for the lands of carthage by about 265 and the Lusotannan havent moved beyond their initial province.No. The script is only in regard to the rebels in Celtiberia because in that period there were several periods of alliance against invaders between those two tribal confedarations.

[Dux Corvanus]

Aymar! Where are my Cantabrii? And quit that puny Vascii thing from my sight... it hurts my feet. ~;) (Hope you don't forget who are in the chronicles and who exist mostly in nationalistic propaganda).

Ready to be back. So many things I must be updated, though, I see...

I'd be back earlier, but my "raspy, not to your taste" mother tongue has sored my throat lately. As I can't speak that sleazy, greasy sounding gibberish you, homo pastoralis et latro, do talk... :laugh4:

See u soon in the 'secret chamber'... :2thumbsup:

"I shall be loved when I'm lack'd" (Coriolanus, Act VI)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar! Where are my Cantabrii? And quit that puny Vascii thing from my sight... it hurts my feet. ~;) (Hope you don't forget who are in the chronicles and who exist mostly in nationalistic propaganda).LOL... :grin:


Ready to be back. So many things I must be updated, though, I see...Nice to see you back, Dux!!! :2thumbsup:


I'd be back earlier, but my "raspy, not to your taste" mother tongue has sored my throat lately. As I can't speak that sleazy, greasy sounding gibberish you, homo pastoralis et latro, do talk... :laugh4: ROTFL... :laugh4:


See u soon in the 'secret chamber'... :2thumbsup:

"I shall be loved when I'm lack'd" (Coriolanus, Act VI):smiley: