Question about Pahlava

[oudysseos]

I have been reading The Persians by Maria Brosius, and have a question about the Pahlava faction.

Are the Pahlava intended to be proto-Parthians? Their starting position in the time frame seems to imply that they are meant to be the group that became the Parthians known to Rome.

The question that I have about this is that the Persians/Parthians that Rome had so many problems with were the Arsacids, who, according to Brosius and other sources were the Parni, as I quote,

"In the 3rd century BC ... a nomadic tribe called the Parni, or Aparni, crossed into the northern border of Parthia. The Parni were an Iranian speaking people who belonged to larger confederation known as the Dahae. After a period of an apparently peaceful settlement in Parthia the Parni adopted the name of the province, and became subsequently known to the outside world as Parthians. With their establishment as a political power the term 'Parthia' became a generic term for their empire as a whole, and the term 'Parthians' for the many different peoples who inhabited it."

Whereas the Pahlava do not seem in the least to be the same guys, according to Brosius and some other written sources that I have. The following is a quote from Wikipedia but is a paraphrase of a similar passage in Brosius.

"The Pahlavas are a people mentionned in ancient Indian texts like the Manu Smriti, various Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Brhatsamhita etc. They are referenced in the Mahabharata and the Puranic literature as Pahlavas as well as Pallavas. They were ancient Persian tribe known as Pahlav, who migrated from Persia to west, south-west and southern India and founded the Pahlava dynasties. They are said to be same as the Parasikas."

So the Pahlava faction, in RTW game faction context, is an Indo-Persian faction in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and a not a faction set on a course to replace the Seleukids.

Question then, is, should the EB Pahlava faction actually be the Parni? Or do you guys have something else in mind? Just wondering, not criticising.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

EB Website Pahlava faction history:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_pahlava_history.html

EB Website Pahlava faction start situation description:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_pahlava.html

[oudysseos]

Thanks for the reply, but I had read those pages. I still don't really understand why you chose to name them Pahlava rather than Parni.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Most of these guys aren't around anymore, but here was most of the pertinant conversation about the naming of the faction (a glimpse into the craziness of EB). :laugh4:


Iranian is an ethnic term and also used to indicate a language group.

In the ethnic sense the Persians and Sassanids of Persis are less Iranian than the Parni would be due to the non-Aryan peoples who were present in Iran at the time of the Iranian migration.

As a language the Medes, Persians of Persis, Sogdians, Bactrians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Dahae, Sakae and numerous others are all Iranian languages.

The Persian language was spoken widely, not just in Persis proper. The Dahae-Scyths from whence it is said the Parni came spoke Iranian and where Iranian. The Parni/Parthians spoke Middle Persian the very same language the Sassanids spoke. They spoke a DIALECT of Middle Persian. French is not a dialect of German, nor is English. The drawl of the southern American states is a dialect of English. This does not mean they cannot be understood in England.


Well Pahlav is the Persian transformation of the Old Persian Parthava. This is the native name of the term Parthia(n). This is in the Pahlavi language which is not the original tongue of the Parni tribes. The Parni spoke a language believed to be related to Scythian whereas Pahlavi or Parthian is related to the Median-Persian dialect.

Possible choices;
1.Parthia; english adaption of Greek adaption of Persian term
2.Pahlav; Pahlavi (Parthian) term used 30 years later than game start.
3.Parni or Aparni; Parth. prnwÓ, from parni *parnu-‘old’, *ParnuÓ ‘old man’, ari-parni. Name used by tribe at game start but abandoned within 30 years.

The other choice is Parthava but this is Old Persian and being used by the Province of Parthava and I do not want to use the same name for the faction.

We are left with the choice of using a term, which some 30 years in the future, will be what they call themselves, or using a term which they will no longer be in use in 30 years, or an english term that is well known but non-native.

My personal preferance would be Pahlav/Pahlavi if we are using native names for factions.


Pahlav means Parthia and Pahlavi means the script and language as well as being used as 'Parthian'. Pahlavi was also later used as the name for the Pahlavi dynasty that was overthrown by the Iranian revolution.


IIRC, Pahlavi was the official tongue of the late Parthian court after the Persian revival of the later 1st to the 3rd century AD, and of the Sassanids, where it also became the language of the people of the heartland of Sassanid Persia.

But didn't the Parthians speak another language at first, other than Skythian? Methinks it was Avestan...

Personally I think 'Aryana' would not be correct. The term itself is Old Persian, a language long extinct and nothing but very official in the time of Cyrus the Great already.

The argument of 'Iran' coming from 'Aryana' would be correct in technical terms, since it did, but not in terms of naming our faction. You see, the international name 'Iran' to designate 'Persia' was actually a nazi idea. German ambassadors to Pahlavi Persia encouraged the Persians to adopt that name to accentuate their 'Aryan' heritage. Persian embassies throughout the world adopted the term and from then on the nation was known as 'Iran' (slowly but steadily).


There was a Parthian language, but I don't think it is Avestan. My understanding is that Avestan is the language of the sacred texts of the Zoroastrian religion, which constitute nowadays its only representation (we don't have any other texts in the same language, AFAIK). Those texts probably date to VI BCE and before, but it seems likely that by EB's times the Avestan was already a cult/dead tongue. Avestan belongs to the eastern or southeastern group of iranian languages (together with the Scythian, Sarmatian, Sogdian, Khwarezmian and the somehat less related Bactrian and Saka). Pahlavi, for example, together with Achaemenid Persian (Old Persian) belongs to the southwestern group.

The Parthian language, belonged (together with the Mede) to the northwestern group of Iranian languages. Modern languages in that group are, for example, Kurd and Baluchi. Parthian was one of the official languages used by the Arsacids (what about that, or a suitably iranian version for faction name? Arsakiya?) together with Pahlavi and Greek. For a short while, it remained in use as official language with the Sassanians and in fact most of the surviving material for the language are the Parthian versions that accompany the Pahlavi inscriptions of the first Sassanian kings (e.g, Naq-i-Rustam). Additional material comes from the Nisa ostraka and the Vologaeses inscription. Apparently, the term that language used to name itself was "Parthava/Pardhava".



Heh, I think I like Parni/Aparni. Pahlav is a close second, though, my doubts about it arising exactly from the same facts you mentioned: its not strictly Parthian by its association with Sassanid Persia.


Well the association of Sassanid Persia is of a later age when Parthian accomplishments were celebrated in disguise by Ferdowsi. The term 'Pahlavi' is a linguistic term and the Parthians called themselves pahlavans or `heroes'. The term 'Pahlav' or 'Pahlava' is one I wouldn't mind.
Parni or Aparni is IMO a very poor description of the faction. They are far more than a nomadic tribe and I think that 'Pahlav' or 'Pahlava' best suggests this.


IIRC, Pahlavi was the official tongue of the late Parthian court after the Persian revival of the later 1st to the 3rd century AD, and of the Sassanids, where it also became the language of the people of the heartland of Sassanid Persia.

But didn't the Parthians speak another language at first, other than Skythian? Methinks it was Avestan...

Also, since Pahlavi was the courtly language, we need to choose the name in regard of either the people or the rulers of the empire. That is a hard choice, and I personally haven't decided yet. I'll think about it

~Wiz

Avestan is likely the origin of the Northwestern dialect that Parthian was a part of.

The Parni/Aparnin were members of the Dahae Scyth confederacy and likely spoke the Scythian language or a variant of it. Scythian is a Northeastern dialect of East Iranian as are Bactrian, Sogdian and Sarmatian.

Parthian is a Northwestern dialect of West Iranian most closely related to the Kurdish dialects Sorani, and Kurmanjii and according to Dr. Kaveh Farrokh Mazandarani and Gilani are variations of Pahalvi.

I do not think we need to choose between the people and rulers as they are all Iranian languages and the Parthian language itself is related to Median, Kurd, Mazanderani, Parsi and the Balochi languages. These are all of the Northwestern branch of west Iranian.

The Southwestern or Persid group was spoken by the Sassanid Persians and called Pahlavi. This is descended from Old Persian. The word originally refered to the language spoken by the Parthians (Northwestern) , and later came to be applied to the script used to write Middle Persian (Southwestern).
The Middle Persian Pahlavi script was derived from Aramaic but is not the same as Parthian or Arsacid Pahlavi.


Hmm.
For Parthians I'd have to go with Parni, or Aparni. I don't really like the idea of them using a Persian term, since they were never really considered Persians.

Really? Cause even though they might have spoken Persian, they certaintly get along with the Persian people. That said, you all know more about the language more than I do. It's just that I really don't want them to be Persian wanna bes like in Vanilla, and by using Persian would suggest they were a far more direct descendent of the Arachemids than they actually were.


Pahlavi was a Parthian term stolen by the Sassanids.

BTW neither the Parthians NOR the Sassanids were descendentsof the Achaemenid Persians. The Sassanids were heavily influenced by the Aramaic cultures of mesopotamia. The Parthians were more influenced by the north Iranian and nomadic groups.

Pahlava!

[oudysseos]

Wow. That pretty much comprehensively answers my question. Thanks.

[Kull]

Wow. That pretty much comprehensively answers my question. Thanks.

We definitely aren't "winging it". Any major change is accompanied by detailed discussions, with plenty of back and forth, and much posting of evidence. :2thumbsup: Even small things can involve extensive analysis. And woe betide the EB Team member whose only rationale is something like, "I got it from Osprey" or "This is what google has". Ouch. That can get bloody. :tomato:

In fact, one of the worst criticisms one could ever direct at the EB team is that we "make up history". Nothing could be further from the truth. So I'm glad that Dave took some time away from his busy v.80 tasking :whip: to provide a little insight into how we actually come up with something as seemingly simply as a Faction name.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There are almost 127,000 posts in the EB forum here. Of those, almost 83,000 are posts on EBH - mod development posts. Though we sometimes have a thread about something off topic, and certainly there are posts that drift that way, most all of it is indeed on mod development or administration. So, of the forum here, 1/3 of the posts are in the public part, asking questions, etc., and 2/3 of the posts are in development.

[oudysseos]

This unworthy one humbly submits that he never, ever, ever thought that ye were winging it. He will now preform the Six Respectful Dances of Gratitude and Appreciation.

[Kull]

This unworthy one humbly submits that he never, ever, ever thought that ye were winging it. He will now preform the Six Respectful Dances of Gratitude and Appreciation.

I fully understand - your post was a simple, reasonable question. I just wanted to use this compendium of past discussions to make the point that we DO go the extra mile - and beyond - in search of historical accuracy. It's a very accurate example of how we do things.

One more example, and I'll let it go. One of our Team Members (Dux Corvanus) went out to the Iberian coast and collected some murex sea snails. He then extracted the glands and made a tiny amount of the famous Phoenician Purple dye. And why? Because he wanted to know what it REALLY looked like - and we were later able to use that information when discussing the correct colors for some of our units.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We could start a thread where the public has to guess which one is correct:

EB members, for the sake of accuracy, have:
(a) while filming, killed several hobos to ensure the death animations were correct
(b) extracted glands of murex sea snails to obtain the exact color for the cloth of some EB units
(c) measured the average height of several most common forms of steppe grasses to use in determining the height of same in game
(d) dressed "up" as Gaesatae and visited several small north Italian towns to judge the reaction of locals and determine appropriate amount of (or lack thereof) intimidation and fearfulness to use in mod for the unit

[Corinthian Hoplite]

Hmmm... b)?

a) what's hobos?
d) that would only make the locals have a good laugh :P

[oudysseos]

My wife thinks that I am the biggest geek of all time because I am laughing uncontrollably at a forum post for a video game.

Hobos- Now I can't even say the word without giggling.

You guys rock.

[Conqueror]

We could start a thread where the public has to guess which one is correct:

I am so voting for (d)! ~D

[Watchman]

I am so voting for (d)! ~D
The two most common questions Vladimir Nabokov was asked for the rest of his life after he got Lolita published were "Why'd you do it?!" and "How many years did you get?"
:balloon2:

[Krusader]

We could start a thread where the public has to guess which one is correct:

EB members, for the sake of accuracy, have:
(a) while filming, killed several hobos to ensure the death animations were correct
(b) extracted glands of murex sea snails to obtain the exact color for the cloth of some EB units
(c) measured the average height of several most common forms of steppe grasses to use in determining the height of same in game
(d) dressed "up" as Gaesatae and visited several small north Italian towns to judge the reaction of locals and determine appropriate amount of (or lack thereof) intimidation and fearfulness to use in mod for the unit

Aha. So that's where Ranika went...no wonder we havent heard from him in a while.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It could all be true...
EB is often connected with insanity...
(c) sounds like something shifty could have done for his beloved nomadic factions.