Moors? Like Elmoheads?

[Bullethead]

While I wait another week for pre-ordered M2TW to reach the boonies where I live, I've been reading in here. And one thing I've noticed is that nobody's put up a guide about playing as the Moors. I find this interesting, because back in the MTW day, folks were drooling all over their equivalent faction back then, the Almohads (which back then we called the "Elmoheads" after a prominent forum member of those times).

So what's it like playing the Moors/Almohads/Elmoheads in M2TW? The MTW version had some killer early/cheap infantry, the AUMs (Almohad urban militia), and with them could do some serious damage. OTOH, they had to be strong everywhere because an amphibious Crusade could land anywhere in North Africa at the drop of a hat. At least in the right hands. If you look way back in the MTW Almohad guides, you might find an example of what could go wrong with that faction when under my control :scared: I've been looking forward to expunging the shame of that game since I learned that M2TW was coming out.

[IrishArmenian]

Yes, it seems few have played as the Moors. I wonder what their starting position is like? They have Southern Spain, North Africa, but what provinces/cities?

[danfda]

Nope, no killer cheap infantry. In the two campaigns I've tried (one as the Motherland England and one as the Moors) the Moors have gotten wiped out quickly. Yes, in both campaigns. I got teamed up on by the Ports and French and Spanucks, and I died. It was sad. But it needs to be said that I am a horrid general...

North Africa is actually pretty good in Med2. Marakesh and Tunis seem to make fair amounts of money, and Cordoba is a money-maker if you can protect it. There are awesome merchant sites just outside of Timbuktu (furthest south province in NorAf), gold and ivory, and I was making over 300 florins per turn per site. So, they're worth a try. I am not a good general, and I am still trying to figure out the somewhat silly recruiting trees there are...

Jinettes are thine enemy.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Really? The Moors are rocking in my campaign. They're consistantly ranked in the top 3 along with the Papacy and myself (the Turks.) In fact, they managed to kick the Spanish out of Spain and take over the entire peninsula, and are pushing into western europe now. Minimap on the bottom left shows:

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8251/0214sp0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

The Moors get Urban Militia, which are WAY better than militia units. They're classified as heavy infantry and have veyr high stats, but they don't seem to be a big threat on the field for some reason.

[Xaziv]

i wonder if their success on your campaign had anything to do with the fact that you were playing as a different muslim faction?

I played as the moors and it seemed their starting armies were not very effective in the early game.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

maybe, I don't think so though. I've only been allied with them for a couple turns. The reason they did so well was because of their very, very effective use of Jihads. Three or Four Jihads were called in my campaign so far, all of them against Iberian cities, and the Moors won them all except one. That one was won by Egypt, who took Leon, and then lost it to the Moors a couple turns later.

I did absorb all of Egypt's fighting power, though. Maybe in your campaign the Egyptians turned and took out the Moors' north african provinces to cripple them, but in my campaign they were too busy fighting me to hit the Moors. So the Moors got an easy, single-front war.

The Moors' biggest problem, though, is their utter uselessness in the Late period. They get no units that can even remotely match the late period units of the Turks, Russia, or the Catholic factions. I'm surprised they're still doing well. Even though it's only 1192 in my game, I set the time scale to 1.00, so everyone is starting to get their late-period units now. I guess we'll see if the Moors manage to get pushed back.

[shifty157]

I played the beginnings of a campaign as the moors. YOu dont have to worry about Egypt because its far away and seperated by big provinces and desert.

The big problem with the Moors is that they have no real heavey units in the beginning of the game so youre easily outclassed man for man by the Spanish and Portugese. You do however start out with a fairly large empire (4 provinces, 2 castles 2 cities) and if you develope these correctly you can really start making alot of money.

Its a really good idea to open up two fronts as quickly as possible. One in Iberia against the Portugese and Spanish (though not both at once because youll be stomped) and one in the east to take Tunis, Sardinia, Corsica, and eventually Italy.

The other big problem with the Moors is that because youre muslim, none of the christian factions want to ally with you so its really only a matter of time before christian factions on your borders declare war on you even though you may be much stronger than they are. If you play well then this shouldnt pose too much a problem (seeing as how youd probably be declaring war on them before too long anyway) but it can be rather frustrating because the constant declarations of war dont really give you much time to breathe. This can get especially bad once youve conquered France and get into the heart of EUrope because suddenly youll find yourself with many enemies all across youre rather large borders.

As someone else said, jihads will be your best friend for the early part of the campaign because suddenly you can have a very large army and not have to pay a nickel of upkeep. Of course once you get past the Pyrennes you lose this ability because i believe you can only call a jihad on a province that is mostly muslim.

Like i said though. Youre big lack as the Moors as any real heavey units so unless you can manage to get your hands on some (as mercenaries or any other way) youll want to make sure that you go into battle with a sizeable numerical advantage. Its also generally better to wait out seiges because generally even if you could win the seige youd take too many casualties in the process leaving at best with a long pause to rebuild your army or at worst completely open to counter-attack. Getting access to artillery evens the ground somewhat in seiges so that you can open several breaches to gain the numerical advantage and avoid bottlenecks like ladders and seige towers that can often turn into massacres with such lightly-armored troops.

Basically you have to refine the art of maintaining the pressure of an offensive while avoiding major battles as much as possible. WHat this results in is alot of maneuvering of your armies and alot of hit and run tactics. You have to leapfrog your armies across the map. WHat i mean by this is have your armies work in pairs. One army will move in and seige the next settlement while the other goes beyond that settlement and harasses the enemy to keep their attention diverted away from helping the beseiged settlement because more often than not the strength of the beseiged force and the relief army is more than enough to overpower your seiging army. But if you can catch the relief army in the field with another army then you should be able to crush it. EVen better is if you divert the relief army and lead it on a wild goose chase until its too late and the settlement is yours. What can be good at this is armies composed entirely of cavalry because of their much larger movement rate on the campaign map. YOu can lead a diversionary raid and seige a city in the heart of their empire and then at the last minute (have a good spy network to keep track of all enemy movements) before the relief force comes to destroy your army lift the seige and escape into the fog of war only to turn up a turn later at the gates of another city. Just be very careful not to fall into ambushes and always know exactly where all your enemies are. If worse comes to worse and you get trapped then keep some cash reserves to hire up all the mercenary infantry that you can.

Fleets become incredibly important for this tactic as well. It is incredibly important that you have a powerful navy and that you keep an iron grip on the seas at all times. Fleets are the only area where you are on the same ground as the Europeans so it shouldnt be too difficult to do this especially because the AI doesnt seem to spam fleets anymore like it did and because you dont have to spend countless turns chasing defeated fleets across the map because they just wont die. Its a very good idea to keep at least one 'amphibious' army that you always keep at sea. That way in a pinch you can land the army anywhere that its needed to cause some havoc and generally piss the AI off and then just as quickly it can escape beyond the AI's reach. The other reason for a strong fleet is to blockade the enemy. Blockades are an incredibly useful tool at denying your enemy income and less income equals less armies which should help to even the field a bit so that you arent at such an overwhelming disadvantage.

[IrishArmenian]

Could you copy this and paste it into one of froggy's guides? That would be a big help to everyone. I would, but then I would be credited with it.

[shifty157]

Could you copy this and paste it into one of froggy's guides? That would be a big help to everyone. I would, but then I would be credited with it.

Yeah I guess i could. Its not very thurough or well written seeing as how its all just off the top of my head. Could you point me to her guides? I generally dont read guides myself so i dont know where she keeps them.

[Dooz]

I'm still playing my first campaign as England, but love the Moors. They do have the souped up Urban Militia as in MTW, and they look awesome too. And before I came along, they were dominant, one of the strongest factions of the campaign.

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4811/english1280wm4.th.jpg (https://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=english1280wm4.jpg)
Their influence by the year 1280. The little piece of Africa I own there is Tunis, which I took from the rebels in a Crusade a while back.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8686/eglish1320hk7.th.jpg (https://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eglish1320hk7.jpg)
Then of course came the English...


I love fighting the Moors. Fun units to go up against, like the aformentioned urban milita, and the Sudanese tribesmen and other warriors are awesome to massacre.

[IrishArmenian]

I love fighting the Moors. Fun units to go up against, like the aformentioned urban milita, and the Sudanese tribesmen and other warriors are awesome to massacre.
Wonderland, creator of African Colonialism: Total War.
And for shifty, the guides section:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=185
Because the game is so new, there aren't many thoroughly edited, scholarly masterpieces, don't worry about it.

[Dooz]

Wonderland, creator of African Colonialism: Total War.

Heh, don't know quite how to feel, being the first to exploit slavery in the region centuries before I should. The last city to the south has since fallen and they have a nice slave resource there...

[shifty157]

And for shifty, the guides section:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=185
Because the game is so new, there aren't many thoroughly edited, scholarly masterpieces, don't worry about it.

Thanks for the link. I posted it.

[Waleed]

Once I got the game I started a couple of campaigns as various factions but settled with the Moors to invest my time in a real campaign. I've always loved the almohads in MTW because well I'm Muslim and they also have a good starting position. In M2TW they are more challenging than the Almohads in MTW. I'm now about 76 turns into a campaign with the Moors.

In the beginning of my campaign the Portugese and then a few turns later, the Spanish decided to try to blitz Codoba. After a few defeats and then some very very close victories I managed to stall their advance. Cordoba is an excellent province as there is a bridge crossing from Portugal into it and there are various bridge crossings in the middle of the province and along Leon and Toledo provinces. Taking advantage of these crossings I was able to hold off army after army until I was able to build up my economy a bit and afford to field an army decent enough to actually go on the offensive. Portugal got into a bitter war with France and I took advantage of this and took and Sacked Portugal. From there I had enough cash and cash flow to stage a war against Spain. It was long and protracted but Spain fell too.

Now I have all the iberian provinces in my empire and i'm pushing into Europe. My economy is booming and I have several citadels churning out high quality armies. I've begun to grow an attachment to Crown Prince Abdu'llah as he's gone from a 2 star general to a 9 star general and is now the General I use to spearhead all of my offenses. Micromanaging this game like all Total War games can be annoying but man is it satisfying when it pays off :)

Anyway give the Moors a try sometime, been having a blast playing them, and it's a change from the usual Catholic factions that dominate Europe.

[Spendius]

I played the Almohads in MTW. They could do a very quick start, build up a strong economy quickly (farms & gold mines, then trade), and develop strong early units, but they would not progress with each building, so were very weak in the late game.
I just loved the naphta throwers. I would block big enemy units with a small infantry (like 15 militia), then throw the molotov and enjoy the show !
How do you launch a Jihad when playing a Muslim faction ? No pope panel...

[Griz]

How do you launch a Jihad when playing a Muslim faction ? No pope panel...

there's a jihad button on the info-screen of any imam unit (may be a minimum piety requirement, not sure)

[Bullethead]

Thanks to Shifty and Waleed for their answers to my questions :).


Now I have all the iberian provinces in my empire and i'm pushing into Europe. My economy is booming and I have several citadels churning out high quality armies.

How much of a problem are crusades for you in M2TW? That was always my big problem as the Almohads in MTW. They'd hit me with amphibious crusades all over North Africa while the bulk of my army was in Iberia.

From looking at the map (I still don't have the game), it appears the M2TW Moors start out only owning the western part of North Africa instead of how MTW's Almohads owned all of it up to Egypt. That would remove the problem of a long, exposed rear area. OTOH, if in M2TW you decide to conquer the North African coast, you create this problem for yourself. So it seems to me that unless you have control of the Western Mediterranean with a strong navy, you really shouldn't own much of the North African coast.

I'm thinking it would be fun to get such a strong Moorish navy. Then I'd use it to pillage the whole western Mediterranean coastline, and sack Rome, too. I wonder.... if you keep killing popes, can keep down the number of crusades? Or is the crusade problem small enough to ignore?

[Spendius]

How much of a problem are crusades for you in M2TW?

I'm having a hard time with the byzantine in my turkish campaign, got the first crusade really soon. I saw 2 stacks on their way to jerusalem, but they did not attack me. I hope at least the unsuccessful one will leave me alone.
I think crusades are limited to 1 every 40 years or so.

[Waleed]

I've only had Crusades from Spain when I was skirmishing along their border in the early game. There haven't been too many crusades in my game so far. One Conquered Antioch but I have no idea if they still hold it and that was 20 turns ago. Most of the Catholic factions are locked in a series of brutal wars. France is down to 1 or two provinces thanks to portugal deciding to conquer parts of france as I conquered the province of Portugal. guess Pampolona wasn't providing them enough income to support their army. Sicily, the Ventians, The Milanese and the HRE are all at war with eachother and north italy has been a meat grinder for the last 15 turns at least. England is just North of Portugal but they're garrisoning a lot of troops on their border with the danish who have conquered much of northern germany and parts of Poland and Prussia. Guess the Catholic factions forgot I existed.

As the moors you're to the west of the map far away from the holy land. It's actually a very comfortable place to be. Most North African provinces aren't anything amazing anyway they just would work as a good buffer in case of invasion as it takes a while to cross all the provinces. I've made sure not to build any roads here for that exact reason. I had to go out of my way just to even make contact with Egypt, they're too busy fighting off crusaders and now the mongol horde to even worry about expanding west (if they ever intended to anyway that is). The mongol horde really is a force to be reckoned with in this game. Byzantium, the Turks and Egypt have all forgotten their petty disputes as they've been on the run from the horde trying to mount a desperate defense at any castle, city, brige, or mountain pass they can. Again all the better reason to be all the way in Iberia away from the horde.

[shifty157]

You really dont have to worry about crusades as the Moors. For the most part crusades seem to be focused on the middle east. Even just simple naval invasion isnt a worry either. Most christian factions dont have the disposable income to support the necessary fleet and army to undertake an overseas invasion because theyre too busy fighting eachother.

Basically it seems a general rule now that Sicily, Milan, Venice, HRE, and potentially some others like France will all be bashing away at eachother in northern italy to be worried about you. Of course this doesnt mean it cant happen. After a crushing battle against Portugal early on (i was on the recieving end) Portugal began to gather troops and a fleet together in preparation for invading my provinces in north africa (even though i still owned three provinces in Iberia) which would have been pretty devastating considering the size of their army and the fact that i had no army to defend it. Luckily for me about a turn or so before they set off Portugal was destroyed (though i dont know how). It was a very close call.

But expanding along North africa really isnt a bad idea. Taking Tunis is a must at least just for the easy extra income and as a staging point for later invasions into Sicily and Italy.

[Doug-Thompson]

First Spain, to unlock. They Egypt. Moors next.

[Daveybaby]

Yeah, basically the Moors have got pretty much the easiest starting position of all the factions. Attack who you want without repercussions from the Pope. Far away from the mongols etc. Far away from holy lands. Nicely defensible position.

Which is probably why CA have given them crap units :yes:
I guess you cant have it all.

[Bullethead]

Thanks again for all the reports. Hopefully the Moor Guide topic is now well-stocked, or will be soon :).

From what I gather from all this, the M2TW Moors are kinda like the BI Vandals. IOW, make yourself master of Festung Iberia, let the Europeans beat each other up while you watch, and take advantage of any opportunities that opens up.

How difficult are the Pyrenees to cross in M2TW? Are they like BI where there were only three paths, each of which you could block with a single fort? Or are there more paths now?

[Monarch]

I started a Moor campaign today. I have already taken out Portugal (I took one province of theirs, lisbon, I think in the process I kileld their family, so they were destroyed) and Spain. I've expanded a little East to take Tunis, and have alot of the Iberian peninsula such as Leon, Valencia, Lisbon, Toledo, Cordoba, Granada. Just the two up the top I'm missing, France has taken one, I think I'll be going to war with them soon.

I'm also sieging Sardinia (don't know towns name) and with remaining units after that siege I'll take Corsica.

Compared to the Spear militia Spain/Portugal get early game IMO the Moors do have better infantry. My main positive about them though, when I got m2 I was really looking forward to crusade/jihads, however as England (first campaign) I found you could never crusade where you wanted to because of the pope, and it was also too far away, the jihad system for crusades is much more fun than the catholic system IMO. I decided moors over other Muslim factions because Egypt it just surrounded by rebels early, and the unit rosters of Turks etc didn't appeal.

I'm playing on medium campaign/hard battles btw.