Question about captured government buildings

[Arkatreides]

I have been playing EB (0.74) for a few weeks now and while I think I understand most factors of this great mod, the governments still baffle me a little. Here are my questions (I am playing as the Romans)

- When I build a tier1 (or 2) government building I often get no (or very few) units to recruit (for example unless I am in Italy mainland, I cannot recruit any Hastati, Principes, Triarii etc). Is there any point to having these governments outside Italy?

- In Gaul no matter what government type I have, I can always recruit the gallic troops. I can even do this if I leave the captured enemy building intact. In fact my gallic campaign is going great because I have an all gallic troop army and can repair the whole stack at every town I capture. Is this supposed to happen?

- Do captured enemy building function as goverment building? E.g. after taking Carthage I find a tier 1 Carthegian building there - can I use it, or should I raze it and build my own? Again either option seems to give the same result in Gaul.

- Some enemy towns have 2 government buildings (how?) but I can only ever raze one. What does this mean?

Apologies if any of these questions have been answered before, I read all the relevant FAQs but couldn't quite figure this out.

Thanks in advance

[Teleklos Archelaou]

These will have to be very brief answers, from me at least:

1. Roman recruitment is weird. You'll have to wait for reforms to get real roman units outside of your starting provinces. So either build type4 and wait, or build type1, build your cities up through buildings, and send your troops all from your core provinces.

2. the gallic issues you mention won't happen in 0.8. In 0.74 some gallic recruitment wasn't govt building dependent. Just didn't get to it by the time we switched over.

3. Always destroy enemy govt buildings. Always. Only exception is your own that you installed in a town, and then you lost it, and recaptured it. Otherwise blow them all up. Don't ever repair them. If there is more than one, blow all of them up. ALL govt buildings are destructable. Precursors are not. They dont' do anything but let you know when you can build one or not.

[Tuuvi]

What I have always wondered is why should you destroy enemy governments when they appear to do the same thing as your own government?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Because we don't have unlimited complexes, or by god we would have forced you to do this. We would have made them all different complexes. What we can do is damage them 100% when you take it over. You can repair them if you want to cheat. If you want to play with a system that everybody else seems to like and think is pretty realistic though, you'll destroy them and have to decide how you will fix the province.

Other problems can ensue, but I don't care if you suffer from them if you want to cheat anyway and just repair them.

[Arkatreides]

Thank you for the rapid reply.

Just to get one thing straight: Do I need to destroy them to

a) not cheat or
b) prevent weird effects or
c) because they are useless for my faction

Again, thanks in advance.

[Cheexsta]

A.

The government buildingsare the same buildings for all factions, they just have faction-dependent descriptions and UI images. Simply repairing an existing govt building is considered a cheat, yes.

[Tuuvi]

Oh so I understand now. I like to build my own governments anyway, I only repair governments if my army is in desperate need of retraining.

[Dram]

basically they give you the relevant recruitment ability no matter what faction the government building belongs to even when they are damaged, but you dont get the plus or minus bonuses to law/trade etc.

so you need to destroy them to prevent being able to exploit the recruitment.

personally i repair the government buildings when they are the same faction as mine, eg. if playing as the aedui you take a rebel town with an aedui government complex. this is officially considered cheating though i believe. playing as koiine.... err... the greeks, i found a few hellenic local tyrant complexes in some towns i captured as well.

however keep in mind the AI gets to take advantage of this with pretty much every town it takes.

[NeoSpartan]

Well I don't repair the enemy gov't I just re-train my troops, and once the border is a little stable I build my own gov't.

It helps to have ur own gov't, u get some good bonuses.

My main consern is when I build a Type 3 or 4, in region outside my faction's historical area of recruitment... Will I be able to train local mid-leveltroops???? PLZ!!!!!!!!! :bow:

-This is especially a problem in provinces in Egypt and the mid-East where the only thing I can train are Pheraspidai (playing as KH).
-Also in Rome i can't train any unit exept for spies, and in Carthege I can only train numidian cavalry and javerlins. And in Getai territory I can only train Drapanai. (playing with Aedui)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

One of the things I am most waiting for is the repaired recruitment system and AOR. Filled with new units too. :2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

Another thing to remember when leaving the buildings is that in some cases they will cause a culture penalty, so destroying them can be advantageous.

[Obelics]

i could add that if you conquer an huge settlement, with the more expensive barraks, if you build (after have destroyed the previous GOV building) a IV type GOV building (an indipendent state/polis gov.), you have a good range of units available, and it cost you only 2 turns.

[Watchman]

Depends entirely on the faction-region-govtype equation, methinks. Not a few factions can't recruit a jack (except maybe some pond scum level militia unit if they're lucky) over rather large areas; central Italy is basically entirely recruitement-barren for the two Gauls and Qarthadast for example.

I'd recommend getting that Excel sheet that more or less accurately tells who can recruit what where and how, which should be downloadable somewhere around here.

I also dearly hope some kind soul then puts together a similar table for .8, as at least in .74 the in-game building browser tends to have issues showing the higher-level MICs and given how much those cost and how long they take to build, going at it blind might of get a bit frustrating.

Oh yeah, about the govtype buildings. It should be okay to leave them as is if they for one reason or another are your own, eg. the various rebel settlements in Gaul that tend to have the Aedui type 4 when you're playing said faction, right ?

[Kull]

I only repair governments if my army is in desperate need of retraining.

And that exploit is a thing of the past in EB v.80. Government structures are still related to recruitment, but the heart of the matter is the MIC. And a Parthian MIC is just a big pile of mud brick to a Roman army.

The design, testing, and installation of the new Gov/MIC system was an enormously painful exercise. But it did allow us to put a stake through the heart of this particular exploit. :beam:

[Kull]

I also dearly hope some kind soul then puts together a similar table for .8, as at least in .74 the in-game building browser tends to have issues showing the higher-level MICs and given how much those cost and how long they take to build, going at it blind might of get a bit frustrating.

We have plans to make something available. And you will be amazed. :yes:


Oh yeah, about the govtype buildings. It should be okay to leave them as is if they for one reason or another are your own, eg. the various rebel settlements in Gaul that tend to have the Aedui type 4 when you're playing said faction, right ?

Rebels are not given Govs at the beginning of the game. Some may build them, though (At least the steppe rebels do.)

[Watchman]

The assorted Celt rebels (from Armoriae to Odrysai at the least, by what I've seen in campaigns) too. They seem to favour the Aedui ones for some reason.

[Darkarbiter]

Im 99% sure that there are better ways then the current system. Especially after playing 4atw. In 4atw each province has a building that gives + or - to certain things depending on faction. Now you could make it so that the building assumes the form of a goverment building depending on the faction. I dont think that would work units wise though. Although in theory heres a possible fix
(might be BI only im not sure but i doubt it)

Youd need 21 buildings in each province (or just 1 at the start the rest can be put in by scripting). So you have roman ones in roman land at start and for AI they assume the type 1 form for the roman AI. For gallic AI they provide no units and add no bonuses the same as for any other AI and provide no units). In gaul a gallic AI one is put in and assumes a type 1 goverment for gauls (wouldnt provide a bonus for anyone else). I also know you can make it so barracks only work for your faction. Only bad part is youll need to run a .bat file to disable these for the faction the player wants to be.
So apart from making 84 buildings and having to choose government buildings for regions for the AI (havent you done that pretty much allready?) Its pretty easy and it works (well in theory but usually things that work in theory work anyway but then this is just a colaberation of things that allready exist).

Therefore end result.
No exploits
No annoying ppl telling me to destroy a building every time i conquer a province. I can just conquer then build and not worry about which things i need to destroy first.
Admittably a bit of clutter and you need to run the .bat file for the players faction (unless you remove the need to build goverment buildings but i dont think your gonna want to do that)
You have to make 84 buildings but mainly a copying and pasting of descriptions etc
AI builds correct governent buildings (hey it doesnt get a choice!!!)

Seriously why hasnt anyone though of this before?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Darkarbiter, of course you can do things better. EB is awful.

This is my warning to you - stay away from here. Your recent changes on our wikipedia page were the last straw. You are not wanted here, nor are any of your criticisms of us.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The AI always builds the correct government type anyway. No matter what. If it conquers a province it leaves the existent government intact and builds it's own alongside the former. If it starts from scratch it does so according to settlement culture. No matter what you change: if you want something culture based, that is exactly what you get.

[Darkarbiter]

Darkarbiter, of course you can do things better. EB is awful.

This is my warning to you - stay away from here. Your recent changes on our wikipedia page were the last straw. You are not wanted here, nor are any of your criticisms of us.
I was just offering a suggestion. If i said something wrong in that above please qoute it so i wont make the same mistake again. Offering a way to improve something is not a criticism. I have nothing against the government system. I'm just saying there are better ways to do it. If you dont want my suggestions thats your loss. If you do not want me here thats fine but do not mock me. Never in the above did i say anything bad apart from the fact that i find destroying buildings annoying and i offered an alternative. Next time i will offer suggestions to another mod.

[NeoSpartan]

Darkarbiter, ...... Your recent changes on our wikipedia page were the last straw. You are not wanted here, nor are any of your criticisms of us.

wtf did he do????

[Teleklos Archelaou]

"Seriously, why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" We have limitations in the code. There are a finite number of building complexes. We have used them all. No more. There is part of your answer.

"Im 99% sure that there are better ways then the current system." Well, although you may be some type of super modder, and know the code better than about 70-100 of the best modders to work on this game, I hope you'll forgive me if I am 99% sure you're incorrect. We aren't going to do anything that would need a batch file to run either, I'm sure of that. There is the other part.

And like I said in my previous post - the one that you reported - we know you and we don't want anything to do with you, even before you posted negative comments on our wikipedia page. You have cropped pages off our composers websites and posted them, which made them very unhappy also and they fervently requested we do something about it immediately. You can't help but start new threads complaining about this mod over and over:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1286845&postcount=1
About how RTR is more realistic (in this forum):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1303133&postcount=1
About how our battles are unbalanced and not about any tactics:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1288979&postcount=9
About how EB has an "engine" that breaks down all the time, how "RTR is better then EB", about how we have "Eb unhistorical stuff", how we are unbalanced, blech blech blech...:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1247763&postcount=53
You implied our composer was not up to snuff by saying that "she just used samples":
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1229598#post1229598

And to top it all off, you were the first one to post that you saw what our secret faction was and you alerted everyone to it, a few weeks after volunteering to join our mod but being turned down.

This is even in addition to your other complaints about the music being bad (earlier previews than the one you got in a lot of trouble about), and in addition to the fact that you asked to join us on one day, then the next day posted about how we had so many CTDs and how you liked RTR better. YOU are one of our chief problems outside of coding and modelling/skinning, and you have caused us a good deal of grief since July. Time that could be better spent working on other things instead of dealing with your posts and the problems you cause and constantly reading about how we aren't historical at all or how we are incredibly buggy or worrying about somebody screwing with our wikipedia page now too. :thumbsdown:

[Dram]

wtf did he do????

features - gameplay

* The AI now rapidly expands in random direction regardless of their economy due to the money script as shown by armenias "steppe empire" as well as baktrias "steppe empire".
- * The AI also spews out armies regardless of their income also thanks to the money script.
- * The script must be reloaded every time you reload your game or else EB will not function properly
- * The script also slows down the game to be rather sluggish compared to vanilla so load times are much increased compared to vanilla rome total war.

[Darkarbiter]

"Seriously, why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" We have limitations in the code. There are a finite number of building complexes. We have used them all. No more. There is part of your answer.

"Im 99% sure that there are better ways then the current system." Well, although you may be some type of super modder, and know the code better than about 70-100 of the best modders to work on this game, I hope you'll forgive me if I am 99% sure you're incorrect. We aren't going to do anything that would need a batch file to run either, I'm sure of that. There is the other part.

And like I said in my previous post - the one that you reported - we know you and we don't want anything to do with you, even before you posted negative comments on our wikipedia page. You have cropped pages off our composers websites and posted them, which made them very unhappy also and they fervently requested we do something about it immediately. You can't help but start new threads complaining about this mod over and over:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1286845&postcount=1
About how RTR is more realistic (in this forum):
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1303133&postcount=1
About how our battles are unbalanced and not about any tactics:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1288979&postcount=9
About how EB has an "engine" that breaks down all the time, how "RTR is better then EB", about how we have "Eb unhistorical stuff", how we are unbalanced, blech blech blech...:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1247763&postcount=53
You implied our composer was not up to snuff by saying that "she just used samples":
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1229598#post1229598

And to top it all off, you were the first one to post that you saw what our secret faction was and you alerted everyone to it, a few weeks after volunteering to join our mod but being turned down.

This is even in addition to your other complaints about the music being bad (earlier previews than the one you got in a lot of trouble about), and in addition to the fact that you asked to join us on one day, then the next day posted about how we had so many CTDs and how you liked RTR better. YOU are one of our chief problems outside of coding and modelling/skinning, and you have caused us a good deal of grief since July. Time that could be better spent working on other things instead of dealing with your posts and the problems you cause and constantly reading about how we aren't historical at all or how we are incredibly buggy or worrying about somebody screwing with our wikipedia page now too. :thumbsdown:
I ment in the above post and i have every right to report flaming a perfectly reasonable suggestion so dont try and use that one+everyone complains about realism in the RTR forums and i was presenting a perfectly reasonable argument.
OK seriously about the secret faction. One of your devs posted it in white writing to be funny and i assumed i was not the only one to see it. Therefore writing things in white writing and then someone mentioning them like 1 month later is your own fault. Entirely irrelevent. In the post that someone said qoute "the secret faction is baxite " thats all they said not dont give it away.

Oh and why arent i allowed to give my opinions about battles?

and most of all most of the threads were at a time were lots of EB members were spamming RTR TWC forums with stuff about how EB is better then RTR I dont see you requesting any of your own members getting banned.

Ok so i did wrong a few times? Doesnt excuse you doing wrong to me in return so dont complain about getting reported. That was a perfectly reasonable suggestion and you flamed it (note that i said 99% sure meaning i dont know everything about what i was talking about so stop acting like i said that). Even if it was unfeasable.
Never has anyone said anything about batch files either.

Last thing though. Im glad that someone actually qouted what i said instead of ppl just assuming things.

P.S. how did you think i knew what the secret faction was? I wasnt even very active at the time one of the EB devs posted it so i think a lot more people saw it then you though). Go complain to the person who said it first not me

It is funny that you say I am no super modder then get all angry at me for revealing the secret faction perhaps i do have super powers...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm not talking about the "baxite" thing at all. What I said was correct.

[Darkarbiter]

whats the revealing faction thing about then (after this ill leave ok...)?
and FYI i was never rejected or at least never told i was... and half the reason i got annoyed was when people were being disorganised and ignoring me for like 2 months. Infact i never asked to join the team. Infact i was attempting to be productive by adding suggestions.

[Cheexsta]

Darkarbiter,


Oh and why arent i allowed to give my opinions about battles?

and most of all most of the threads were at a time were lots of EB members were spamming RTR TWC forums with stuff about how EB is better then RTR I dont see you requesting any of your own members getting banned.
I think you'll find there were actually a few EB people who have actually been banned from the RTR forums for causing a similar fuss as you are causing now. Without naming names, said people would criticise the mod without giving suggestions about how it is to be improved; all they would say is that mod X is better than mod Y.

From what I've seen, your manner appears to be similar here. What makes you think that the AI expands stupidly in EB where they don't in RTR? Have you seen the empires that Macedon regularly spawn in RTR (which, I might add, is one of our balancing priorities for 7.0)? I will agree that Baktria and Armenia expand far too much into the steppe regions, but how do you propose it is stopped?

That's the whole point of constructive criticism, to tell a team how something can be fixed, not just that it should be fixed. You were even suspended from the RTR forums for behaving badly towards other mods - something that we frown upon - with the hope that it would improve your attitude. So please, take a moment to think about what you are going to say and ask yourself: is this valid criticism? Moreover, is the criticism I am going to give actually helpful in any way? If you answer "no" to either of these, then don't post.

Just my 2c regarding that.

As an aside, I couldn't quite figure out what you were trying to say exactly regarding the government buildings and how you think it should be improved - do you mind re-explaining that? EB's current solution, while imperfect, is the only plausible method I can think of at the moment without wasting too many building complexes and so on.

Personally, I don't mind the current system. Whenever I conquer a city I always look in the Repair tab to see what other buildings need fixing, and while I'm there I just right-click the inevitable government building(s) and hit Demolish. It becomes quite easy to work into a routine after a while. Just an idea for people who find it a chore to have to demolish them...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

If that's all people have to offer, then they're just causing problems indeed Cheex. I can see why you'd ban them too. This chap has stated that EB members are causing problems in RTR fora, and I seriously doubt that has happened anytime in the last year, but if it has and we knew about it we wouldn't truck it. I personally am pretty nasty about any EB member who pubicly says negative things about other mods, and quite simply we won't put up with it. Indeed we have warned members to stop it or leave, but it didn't have anything to do with RTR, and usually it just happens once and they understand that if someone with a 'member' sig says something bad about a mod, that it no longer is just their opinion, but is interpreted as the whole mod's action, rightly or wrongly. Anyway, it's just damned impolite and nasty. I have to say that my responses here too are often dependent upon whether the person was polite or aggressive - I'm human too, and if someone wants to be a pest or demand we do so and so, then they'll probably get replies of that nature too. Certainly you go out of your way Cheexsta to be friendly here, and every one of us appreciates that too.

[Darkarbiter]

If that's all people have to offer, then they're just causing problems indeed Cheex. I can see why you'd ban them too. This chap has stated that EB members are causing problems in RTR fora, and I seriously doubt that has happened anytime in the last year, but if it has and we knew about it we wouldn't truck it. I personally am pretty nasty about any EB member who pubicly says negative things about other mods, and quite simply we won't put up with it. Indeed we have warned members to stop it or leave, but it didn't have anything to do with RTR, and usually it just happens once and they understand that if someone with a 'member' sig says something bad about a mod, that it no longer is just their opinion, but is interpreted as the whole mod's action, rightly or wrongly. Anyway, it's just damned impolite and nasty. I have to say that my responses here too are often dependent upon whether the person was polite or aggressive - I'm human too, and if someone wants to be a pest or demand we do so and so, then they'll probably get replies of that nature too. Certainly you go out of your way Cheexsta to be friendly here, and every one of us appreciates that too.
Perhaps but then all my posts since the big fight between EB and RTR ppl have been positive (pretty much the only one is that suggestion) and then you go no and flame it... and THEN complain about being reported for flaming. You still havent answered my question about how exactly you thought i knew what the secret faction was.... as previously stated once you answer that question ill be gone from the EB forums.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, that's something I wouldn't know about.

Regarding your comment on government buildings:
what I do know is that EB has hit the upper limits of what is possible with buildings and scripting, thus if you would know about some nifty feature unheard of, or overlooked before it would be greatly appreciated.

Given that you said you were 99% percent sure of a better way to implement Governments, you might have a theory to share with the broader public...?

[Darkarbiter]

Well, that's something I wouldn't know about.

Regarding your comment on government buildings:
what I do know is that EB has hit the upper limits of what is possible with buildings and scripting, thus if you would know about some nifty feature unheard of, or overlooked before it would be greatly appreciated.

Given that you said you were 99% percent sure of a better way to implement Governments, you might have a theory to share with the broader public...?
I said above and it was pointed out it would use too many building complexes.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yep you did, but nonetheless it might be of some help with EB 2, might it not?

Since Medieval II Total War most likely has a whole different set of engine limitations compared to RTW, one might find out your solution would be possible with EB 2.

[Darkarbiter]

Yep you did, but nonetheless it might be of some help with EB 2, might it not?

Since Medieval II Total War most likely has a whole different set of engine limitations compared to RTW, one might find out your solution would be possible with EB 2.
Yes but.... CA dev said...
"The final area I wanted to talk about was the mesh/texture files used for soldier and siege engine models. These are a very different format to the CAS files with which Rome modders will be familiar. Currently, modders will not be able to edit or replace these files.

This is because the format is optimised specifically for rendering. We made this decision to enable us to ramp up the level of detail of the battles while retaining a good level of performance. We are investigating options to allow the community to create their own mesh files."

[vizigothe]

I say we boil him in acid and cut his tongue off!

[Thaatu]

Don't boil him in ACID, are you crazy? How about just boiling water? Then add some cubed potatoes, onion, sliced carrots, maybe even rice and spaghetti. A little salt too.

Not that I condone cannibalism, but it's going to be delicious!


But anyway, I'm sure CA will release some modding tools for M2. (I hope :sweatdrop: )

[Chuffy]

Yes but.... CA dev said...
"The final area I wanted to talk about was the mesh/texture files used for soldier and siege engine models. These are a very different format to the CAS files with which Rome modders will be familiar. Currently, modders will not be able to edit or replace these files.

This is because the format is optimised specifically for rendering. We made this decision to enable us to ramp up the level of detail of the battles while retaining a good level of performance. We are investigating options to allow the community to create their own mesh files."

Which has nothing to do with EB's government system or your claim that there is a better way to do it.

Great work there skip.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, I'm afraid this topic has moved on. I think it will be best if we closed it and moved on to other topics ourselves.