View Full Version : How to get a good charge
Hashashiyyin
11-20-2006, 22:24
It's actually pretty easy to do once you know how and have had some practice with it. I'd also like to say this at the beginning, charging is very touchy if not buggy and still needs some hammering out by CA. Now I'll explain some game mechanics on how charging works (both with infantry and cavlery).
First off, practice! Set a lot of custom battles and just charge cavlery into infantry to start getting the feel on how to charge and when your units will charge.
There is a difference between single clicks and double clicks in M2:TW. A big one. In all other total war games (to my knowledge and experience), the difference between single and double click only differed with the units movement speed. Single click was a slow march, used to get into position with out tiring your troop. Double click was "Charge those infidels!" command telling your units to charge into combat.
In M2:TW this has changed a little. Single click is for "engage that enemy" and double click has become get "here" as fast as possible. In light of this, some of the way Calvary behaves is a little less buggy, a lot more realistic and a lot more user error (again, it's touchy at best and still needs some work by CA). I'll explain this a little more and talk of some of my battle experiences.
I'll talk about the realism side of how charging works. This is to give you some understanding of how to use this in campaign battles and not just canned custom battles. If you want to make a good battle simulation you have to bridge to gap between real people and the 3D models being hammered out by your video card. The most realistic way to do this is to factor in morale, fatigue, and an overall sense of self preservation at a troop level. This way the troops will act more like a real person and not some automaton that blindly throws himself at death just because he was ordered to do so.
Now imagine yourself at your local football field. At each end zone there is a 100 man formation of spear troops. At 100 meters apart they are well within missile range of each other and in most TW games you'd "double-click" at this point. But pretend you’re in one of the formations and are ordered to engage the other enemy. You could run 100 meters as fast as you can with 50+lbs of armor and weapons. When you got there though, your formation would be totally messed up and you would have no energy left for slamming into and then killing the spearmen that did nothing but brace for your charge. That’s a BAD tactic and unrealistic (unrealistic because doing this would cause a lot of casualties and you wouldn't do it based on self preservation), so how would you realistically charge? You would march, slowing and information until you were probably about 15-20 meters away, stop for a moment to close your formation and THEN charge. So how does this translate into game mechanics?
Well in M2:TW, Single-clicking tells your unit to "engage" another unit. That is, they will walk/trot in formation to a point 15-25 meters away, close ranks, rally and then charge.
Double-clicking tells your units to get "here" as fast as possible. Thus, your units don't "charge" because they are trying to get to that point/enemy as fast as possible and don't have the time to set up for a proper charge. This has become a command for flanking maneuvers only!
Case in point (try it in custom battle): JHI vs. DGK - if you double click on the knights, the JHI start to charge. Their halberds flailing wildly about and they slam into the infantry unit and begin fighting. But if you single click them they walk calmly and in formation to a moderate distance. They then stop, rally, and then LOWER their halberds to form a spear wall of sorts and then charge! So single clicking made them engage with and actual charge, using their halberds to lead the way instead of their bodies.
Another case in point: GK vs. Armored sergeants. Ok so now it's Calvary vs. spears. Double clicking makes the gothic knights charge the spearmen. Most of the time they take up their lances at the last minute and charge in with their swords. I believe that Calvary can still charge with the double click (as I've seen it happen) but only and if only they are still in tight formation, which is next to impossible if they have been double click moving for more then 10 meters. Now single click will again, make them trot to about 25 meters away, drop lances and charge! The results are truly amazing! Even against spearmen I've killed the whole unit in one charge in my tests! The only units that can take this charge are the unit's with long spears/pole arms that can specifically brace for the impact with the tips of their weapons.
So to get good with charging: practice with custom battles, and SINGLE-CLICK your unit if you want them to charge! Double-clicking should only be used for flanking maneuvers where the moral damage is more important then shear impact (i.e. your infantry is already engaged and you want your light Calvary to hit their flanks).
Tips and tricks: once you understand the mechanics, getting good charges isn't hard, they just take more time to setup then in other TW games.
Tip 1: Charge radius. Basically, every unit has a distance between it and the unit it's engaging before it will charge (longer for Calvary, shorter for infantry). Thus if you want to run (double-click) your unit to get them in place fast and still charge, double-click move them into just inside/outside their charge radius (this is where the practice comes in :D). Once just inside/outside that radius, single-click and your units will charge.
Tip 2: Using Calvary as an opening punch. I've read more then a few posts about not being able to get Calvary out after the charge. You have to time it well and as soon and the first part of the charge stops, double click on a point behind them and they should be more then able to get out clean, with little or no casualties. But you have to order the retreat almost as soon as the front line of the charge reaches its target, that way they will pull out immediately after their charge and not get hung up fighting.
Tip 3: how to get Calvary to charge again. Basically you have to retreat the Calvary as in #2 above and set them up facing the enemy again, and start the single-click process all over again. Sometime they don't even have to be facing the enemy unit, if you just withdraw them to the edge of the charge radius and single-click, they'll turn and you can get a good charge.
The reason your Calvary has to be well formed before it will charge has again to do with trying to be more realistic (on CA's part) in terms of self preservation. An ill-formed band of knights charging headlong into a mass of spearmen equals death for the knights. On the other hand, a tight group charging in unison equals death for the spearmen. I think a lot of the "buggy" AI comes from the fact that people are giving their troops orders that the AI feels is suicidal when it looks at the quality and facing of its formations. Try actually maneuvering them into formation before giving them orders to attack, the AI seems to agree with this a lot more.
In conclusion, I'm surprised you’re still reading:laugh4: Hope this helps. I think the biggest problem with M2:TW is the fact that CA changed a lot on how battle mechanics and campaign map interactions work and they didn't bother to tell what or why. So were pretty much left to feel that what expect to be there that isn't is a bug. Without ever knowing what (if any) intelligent design was behind the change.
Flavius Gonzo
11-20-2006, 22:31
Very helpful, thanks.
Dr_Who_Regen#4
11-20-2006, 22:35
Great Post...I think we all just were not used to the new method...I have been trying the same approach of one click to engage and it seems to work well...Just means you can't double click from far away and still get a charge. Regardless of realism just something to get used to doing.
Napoleon Blownapart
11-20-2006, 22:42
So that's what I was doing wrong! Very useful post. I'm going to practice now.
Vladimir
11-20-2006, 22:49
Good post. I'm trying to think of situations where it's more benneficial to charge with the sword than lance.
Marquis of Roland
11-20-2006, 22:59
Thank you very much for the analysis, it was very helpful. :laugh4:
Flavius Gonzo
11-20-2006, 23:01
So, question then. Sometimes, it's advantageous to have a unit of cavalry rush to a target but you'd still like it to charge properly say if you want to destroy an out of position unit on the battle field. (An easy example: the enemy has a single unit of town militia marching in as re-enforcements, you want to take them out before they join the entire army.)
Is the only way to do this to double-click to near the target so they run there, then as you get close, to single click, and wait for the charge to happen? And if this is the case, how close can the enemy be for a charge to work?
Again this thread is super helpful. I lost a general the other night "charging" into a unit of peasants of all things. Except, I think I had done the double click thing, meaning, they didn't really charge. Lesson learned.
Good info, still having some issues with it but it might be the radius issue.
Single clicking sometimes will have my troops form up and then charge but sometimes they dont wait for all or some charge at different speeds and dont hit as a unit.
This clould be unit experience tho and will continue to test.
The one thing I would have liked to see was the shift click allowed for charges so we cld shift click an enemy and then double shift click behind them to cause a charge and withdrawal. I love charges but still not a fan of always having to babysit them.
A very good post. Corresponds to my experiences as well. Last night annihilated an enemy general unit in seconds using similar single click charge.
The only problem with the single-click charge: it does not seem to work with skirmishing enemy missile units. I guess, against those, you still want to use double-click attack which won't be a "proper charge" though.
Hashashiyyin
11-20-2006, 23:24
A couple things to help clear up some questions.
First: charging is still buggy and needs work by CA. Some things like only your first line in formation charging are (I hope) bugs. So you will not always get a clean/useful charge even if you do the right things. But still if you take time to setup and single click you'll get 80%-95% success rate vs. a 5-10% success rate by just wildly and chaotically charging your Calvary around the field.
Second: if your unit's are already inside the charge radius and you single click, they will begin the charge immediately. so if you run (double click) them inside the charge radius, and they are still out of formation when you single click, the charge will still probably be crap even if they lower their lances. Try giving a facing command with your moves so when the reach that point they should line up quick and be ready for a good charge.
Third: The only time a unit will stop before the charge is if they have been given the single-click "engage" order outside of the charge radius. Once they reach the charge radius they form up quick and then charge. Again, if they are already inside the charge radius when you single click they will try to immediately charge w/o forming up. so if you're moving a unit from one place to another and want them to be able to get a good charge I'd recommend giving them a facing order with their movement and trying to get them to line up just outside the charge radius.
Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
gardibolt
11-21-2006, 00:10
Double right clicking (irrespective of charge) is buggy; it has been this way for me since Alexander, though it worked fine in RTW and BI. Basically, double right clicking just results in walking, not running. I have to manually press R to get them to move fast. Very annoying.:furious3:
Kadagar_AV
11-21-2006, 00:17
It seems more like a bug than realism to me.
your talk about realism holds true in the scenario of knights vs spearmen.
Now consider another scenario, and one that happens much (MUCH) more often, at least when I play:
spearmen unit goodguys is tying up spearmen unit badguys. The goodguys knights are to storm in from the flank and break enemy formation.
In such a situation, a orderly charge wouldnt have to be set up. 2 knights could do it alone more or less (without it being suicide).
But alas, no. They stroll around and stare.
it's bugged, and has nothing to do with realism.
Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
First off, thanks Hash for the great write-up, I tried it for a bit and it helped. :2thumbsup:
However, I'm inclined to agree with Xy1on's statement. Doubleclicking to run, having to keep track of the unit and have it's charge distance memorized, THEN single clicking to charge (which imo is counter-intuitive) is far too much micromanagement, even for single player where pause is an option. :thumbsdown: If this functionality is what CA intended, then I would offer that we should stick this in the patch wishlist thread as this is just not a good idea.
Cheers!
Darkmoor_Dragon
11-21-2006, 00:48
Nice post but, aye, its bugged; well and truly so.
I think you're trying to read far too much into the conceptualism of "realistic charging".
It just 'doesn't work very well because its buggy code' is the simpler and more likely explanation.
And, ateotd, even if it was WAI then it would still need changing as its so user-unfriendly in its current state.
No, whichever way you look at it it's screwy.
Sorry.
CA: fix it.
BeeSting
11-21-2006, 01:02
Good thread... good posts...
Double right clicking (irrespective of charge) is buggy; it has been this way for me since Alexander, though it worked fine in RTW and BI. Basically, double right clicking just results in walking, not running. I have to manually press R to get them to move fast. Very annoying.:furious3:
This is because you are giving a double click command with the game paused. I admit this is probably a "bug", but once you unpause, they will only walk. If you issue a double click command while unpaused, they will run.
vertical
11-21-2006, 01:06
Very helpful thread, thank you all.
vertical
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 01:12
I agree that it's a little bugged, but when I get a 95+% success rate charging if I take the time to set up the charge make me believe it's a hell of a lot more user error then a bugged mechanic.
The best charges are going to be ones where you give the facing order outside the unit's charge radius, far enough to allow them to fully form up and face the enemy and then single-click on the unit you want to charge. That is the maximum potential charge, and it's not broken, it's not a bug, it's realistic. What most people are griping about is not having the ability to give their unit a "you know what to do, now do it", fire and forget, single button command for Calvary devastation. That's fine if you're looking for arcade style play and it would probably be a wise idea for CA to patch that in as an option to silence the arcade style total war fans. But the heart of the Total war series has NOT been about arcade style play (hello, a 250 turn, 50+ province campaign is NOT arcade). This way of micro managing your Calvary is more realistic (not only in a self preservation sense, but as in how knights on horse back would actually maneuver and charge) and much more strategic on the battle field. It will be a fun change for multi-player, making it more a game of strategy, then a game of button clicking.
I'd have to say the old days of one button Calvary devastation are over and this way is here to stay (I hope).
First off, great post Hashashiyyin, very good info and writeup.
Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
Ok, in regards to having to micromanage double-clicking to get the unit in the charge radius then having to click again, there is a simple solution. You can set "waypoints" for units, as you did if you played the tutorial (which understandably most TW vets won't, but I like them cause they're fun ~:) ). So applying that to this strategy, what you need to do is double-click the unit into the charging radius, then press and hold shift and single-click on the unit you wish them to charge. They'll get to the initial waypoint and line up, then will commence the charge automatically as the second step without you having to come in again and click at that point.
Basically the way waypoints work is you can give a unit a series of destinations which they'll follow in order you place them by pressing and holding shift and clicking where you want them to go. So you can set up the cav on a flank by double-clicking, then press and hold shift and single click on a unit that's engaged with your inf and it'll do exactly what you need. I know I just repeated myself but yeah, just want to make it clear.
A.Saturnus
11-21-2006, 01:16
Very interesting post, but still, there are cases when I couldn't get a charge at all. Single or double clicking just results sometimes in a slow walk right into the enemy formation.
Fantastic post. After getting involved in a unit-spacing debate in another thread I decided to go and do a bit of testing on custom battle myself and came to the same conlcusion. In summary: In my opinion charges are still bugged. Even when executing what should be a "perfect" charge, sometimes it can turn out a shambles with the unit walking or breaking up, etc. However, if you do set up charges just as explained in the first post your succesfull charges will go from maybe 30%-40% succeed ratio to well over 70% succeed ratio. This is still unnacceptable obviously, and needs to be worked on, but I do believe that CA will make the whole process easier and more user-friendly but still retain the new mechanics it seem to be using, so it might be best to get used to it now :P <br>I must say though that the new mechanics are slightly more realistic. Cavalry charges from the early medieval period right up to the early 1800s were always started off at a sedate walk and then gradually accelerated, only reaching full gallop within meters of the enemy. Knights had to charge "knee to knee" as it was known, to get a fully effective charge. The idea was for a solid wall of horse, man and steel to completely obliterate the enemy line, so if the line had alot of gaps it would not succeed as well.<br>However, charging is still (if not bugged) very raw code that needs to be refined quite abit for it to be fully fluid and user-friendly.<br>
BeeSting
11-21-2006, 01:28
Nice post but, aye, its bugged; well and truly so.
I think you're trying to read far too much into the conceptualism of "realistic charging".
It just 'doesn't work very well because its buggy code' is the simpler and more likely explanation.
And, ateotd, even if it was WAI then it would still need changing as its so user-unfriendly in its current state.
No, whichever way you look at it it's screwy.
Sorry.
CA: fix it.
I seriously doubt it’s a bug… it’s part of the game mechanics in that you need sufficient distance and unit order to make your charges affective. The progression of patches in RTW has made charges harder to master and more real to life. There’s a huge difference in how charges work between 1.3 and 1.5 patches. They may have perfected this in MTW. And I like it.
In this game, as I can imagine in real life, the FIRST charge with fresh units is most damaging. So make it count!
Light cavalry charges are most affective on the flanks. Frontal heavy cavalry charges are best used to break up the main line; it is even more affective if closely followed by infantry charge.
I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.
BeeSting
11-21-2006, 01:39
I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.
Well said...
vertical
11-21-2006, 01:44
Just played a custom battle to try this out and it worked well. I've found that setting the cav to wedge formation and having them charge and keep going through the unit and then turn around and charge again works better (less friendly casualties, and if you falled it with an infantry charge and had the cav sandwich the just charged unit, I'd imagine it'd work great) than falling back right away after a charge. Disclaimer: I've only tested it once though against average spearmen, and of course every campaign battle is different and this might not be a viable tactic every time.
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 01:45
I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.
If you honestly believe that you could get on a horse, with 30kg of armor and weapons, charge at top speed with 60+ other armored horses and stay in perfect charging formation for anything over 50 yards I'd have to say you've never ridden on a horse. At least never been on a fully charging horse. If you have been on the back of a fully galloping horse, think about doing it while wearing 60 lbs of armor, holding a shield in one hand, and a lance in the other, controlling the horse with you knees, and trying to keep in a perfect line with the 20 other armored knights to your right for 400 yards? are you joking?
We are not talking about me, we are talking about highly trained heavy cavalry. I dont disagree with you tho. Things like terrain and stuff will mess up a straight charge. And yes I have ridden a few horses, and its quite a bumpy ride at full gallop. I want my medieval battle sim to be as real as possible. A cav charge should be well placed and timed perfectly, and the general in command has allot to do with that. The general should be able to say CHARGE!, not guide them thru each step.
I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping.
Probably not in heavy armor for both man and horse though.
Modestus
11-21-2006, 02:01
I will not argue with any of your conclusions except to say that the behavior of units in custom battles is completely different from the behavior of units in the campaign. I will take note of what you said and try it out. But I have found from my own experiments that the Path finding problems that I am experiencing in the Grand Campaign cannot be repeated in the Custom battles and it is this issue that is the cause of a lot of the trouble with charges. Why one should be different from the other I do not know.
As far as charging archers, it seems like the cavalry switch to swords as if they were chasing routing units, because the archers are running away. That will hopefully be remedied though.
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 02:31
I think people are mixing up the jobs the different units and are trying to use heavy calvary in a way that it cannot realistically be used. This is probably because all the other TW games, the charging wasn't realistic, but now it is. I think a LOT of people are trying to use heavy calvary like light calvary.
Heavy Calvary - Shock troops well suited to destroying STATIONARY groups of infantry. Effective in a STRAIT line. Horses bear well over 100kg in weight from armor and rider and such are bread to be huge, stronge, and tough. They are not bread for speed because chasing infantry IS NOT their intended purpose. Lining up, and charging at full speed in a strait line to annihilate stationary or less mobile infantry is however.
Light Calvary - Lightly armored horses and riders. Meant and bread for speed, and traveling stamina. Their low armor (both in protection and weight) make them ill-suited for charging directly into stationary infantry. They are much faster, far more mobile and flexible then heavy calvary and this makes them perfect for; chasing down routing infantry, harassing skirmishers, harassing horse archers, harassing engaged infantry from their flank (with the punch method, not prolonged combat).
You have to use your units right! They are not the same and cannot be used as suc
Expecting your heavy calvary to just march around the field the whole battle at full speed charging over everything in their path is not realistic or logical, it's an arcade style of play. M2:TW is getting more into a simulation aspect of the the battles and away from the point-n-click god mode heavy calvary. You actually have to strategically place your calvary units so they can get a clear strait charge at their target. It's difficult to do effectively, but when you do it annihilates the target. This is how it worked in RL battle and this is now how it works in M2: TW and it's a LOT better. Buggy? yes. But is the mechanic for charging fundamentally bugged and flawed, no. It's the next step in bringing realism into the battle simulation.
I honestly hope they add arcade style calvary into the game as an option in the patch, but I sure won't use it.
I just did some tests with Feudal Knights vs Spear Sergeants. The charges worked perfectly every time with the one click method. To withdraw without getting all tangled up with the defending unit, I had to immediately double click to retreat when the cavalry charge hit home.
Using the one click method works extremely well with cavalry. And the cavalry charges are devastating even against spears.
I agree that the new MTW2 charge is much more realistic than any of the previous games. Takes a bit more time and effort but is a very good simulation of how charges were done in the medieval time frame.
Still think bowman are bit overpowered though.
It might be advantageous (though maybe not necessary) to switch the cavalry that just charged into a unit to guard mode right after the initial impact to get out of melee quicker and prevent any chance of them engaging and getting tangled up. It seems they escape the tangled masses faster when on guard mode.
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 03:34
Thought of an interesting way to look at calvary that might help people understand how to use it better:
Think of Heavy calvary is like a giant infantry battering ram. The "parts" to the battering ram are the Knights and the "assembled" battering ram is the knights in formation. The advantage to this, is that, the parts of the ram are self mobile and so, can break down, rapidly move, and quickly reassemble. This assembled ram is like a door ram in that it uses a huge amount of kinetic energy to destroy everything in it's path, but can only transfer the energy in a strait line, and obviously needs to be fully assembled to work. So assemble your ram (your knights) and charge the "ram" into a stationary target. once the forward momentum of the ram is broken, the pieces can dissolve and the reform the ram again. But for the ram to be effective it has to set up so it can transfer it's energy in that strait line again. So the pieces of the ram have to be told to set the ram up again in a good strategic place to maximize it's effectiveness. You are left to tell the pieces where to set up the ram."
PwnageBot2000
11-21-2006, 03:51
Very useful mate, thanks, it'll come to great use. Now to practice!
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 03:53
Thanks for the write up Hashashiyyin, it was excellent.
I agree whole heartedly.
Gentlemen,
I'd say many of our issues with the game are due to the fact that there is no explanation by the designers on why it is so. Without this, we are using our varied opinions to determine if something is correctly implimented or not.
There are some issue with charging that do seem a little buggy (like only the front rank moving off while the rest sit around watching) but essentially I'd say Hashashiyyin concept is correct.
In many ways gentlemen there is no point arguing but simply learning and adapting. CA have a concept of how Cavalry should work and unless you adapt and learn to use it then you will be forever behind the 8-ball.
Cheers
AG
If you have been on the back of a fully galloping horse, think about doing it while wearing 60 lbs of armor, holding a shield in one hand, and a lance in the other, controlling the horse with you knees, and trying to keep in a perfect line with the 20 other armored knights to your right for 400 yards? are you joking?
Perfect formation? No, that's unrealistic. But as I have read it, the standard Frankish charge would still be a very cohesive, "standardized" formation that's slighty saw-tooth shaped on the front, to vary the force delivered and allow for penetration through the mini-gaps formed on impact. Keeping this kind of formation, wearing all that amor, over several hundred yards is not farfetched. Do keep in mind that the men doing this have been trained since their youth to live, eat, sleep, breath, and crap combat and war. These men could also move around in their armor like it was a second skin, in a book I just got done reading about Agincourt, there were multiple references to a knight who could scale the underside of a ladder quite nimbly in full "White harness", as full plate mail was referred to in that time period. There was another thread where it was either econ or myddraal who posted a number of references to medieval warrios being big and powerful, and being able to remain rather agile in their various types of armor. Thus the concept of these men in armor, riding their likewise armored horses, which are also bred and trained for battle, in a cohesive and organized manner doesn't seem so unrealistic in the end. I must admit I had a number of preconceived notions about this before I started reading books on the subjects.
Now I will offer that xy1on's statement about turning in a charge will cause lose of cohesion, which to me would translate as to giving a counter-order or telling the cav to do something different in mid-charge, when within their charge distance. Ordering them to perhaps charge the unit to the immediate left or right of the original target, while still several charge-distances (is this a new unit of measure? :gring: ) away shouldn't entirely destroy the cohesion as it's not as extreme of a course alteration, but the overall unit cohesion should take a hit, that they will have to reform for the most part before hitting the point that they start the final run.
And while some others have posted a few good points to consider such as the waypoints, etc, my opinion still remains that the bottom line is that the level of micromanagement here is too much. I should be able to, through a single double click, order my cav to run across a distance, then when in range, charge at their targets, and they should do this in a cohesive fashion.
Cheers! :balloon2:
I'd like to see a lot more from Hashashiyyin as far as theories on the game go and different tactics and strategies and everything else. I sure hope you continue to provide us with more wonderful and insightful tips and writeups in the years to come of enjoying M2TW. A true asset to the Org! :2thumbsup:
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 04:47
Keep in mind Whacker, this maybe CA's attempt at keeping the power of Cavalry accurate (statistically) while making sure the overpowered cavalry problems in Rome are solved.
Rome was just a cavalry war if you were really worried about winning.
Keep in mind Whacker, this maybe CA's attempt at keeping the power of Cavalry accurate (statistically) while making sure the overpowered cavalry problems in Rome are solved.
Rome was just a cavalry war if you were really worried about winning.
A good point, but I really really hope that your proposition isn't the case. :laugh4:
There are better ways on making cavalry appropriately powerful, imo, instead of making a kludgy interface or through interface mechanics. As it stands, I think the charges are decent. Some of the lighter cav units are overpowered, some of the spears are underpowered. My real complaint is cav's staying power in pitched battle, post-charge. They seem to be eaten alive by even peasants, which is utter BS.
Cheers!
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 05:08
A good point, but I really really hope that your proposition isn't the case. :laugh4:
There are better ways on making cavalry appropriately powerful, imo, instead of making a kludgy interface or through interface mechanics. As it stands, I think the charges are decent. Some of the lighter cav units are overpowered, some of the spears are underpowered. My real complaint is cav's staying power in pitched battle, post-charge. They seem to be eaten alive by even peasants, which is utter BS.
Cheers!
I'd say the concept will be kept. By that I mean the whole, set up, facing, unit order, correct terrain and single click.
But I agree with your points regarding some balancing issue and staying power after contact...although staying power after contact would not be appropriate for all units :)
Plus a few more bugs that we have spoken about. In the end, a few good patches and this should work out just fine.
The whole double click and forget is not a good thing in my opinion and would represent a step back the Rome cav supremacy days.
A bit of both concepts and we will have a winner in my view.
The whole double click and forget is not a good thing in my opinion and would represent a step back the Rome cav supremacy days.
For the record, I gotta respectfully disagree. :laugh4: Without getting into my opinion too deeply, I think that neutering of units to make them historically not as powerful as what they should be just for the sake of multiplayer stinks. Irregardless, I want to be able to, through a single double-click, be able to order my cav to make a beeline running for the unit that I want them to charge, and then when in range, charge. Can you imagine trying to micromanage 4-6 units of cav in multiplayer (much less single player where you can PAUSE) and getting them to charge cohesively? It's pretty much impossible, unless you're as fast as some of those Korean Starcraft-playing gods who can do billions of actions per second. :juggle2: I for one am nowhere NEAR that capable.
Cheers!
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 05:36
I agree that my idea only works for SP battles with pause Whacker.
It would not work for MP and your single double click and let the AI do the rest is one option, and certainly the easiest=.
But what do you do?
I'd say that if I was CA then I'd keep the SP set up (more complicated) and inform the MP community that this will be the case.
This will keep Cav spamming down in MP and make sure if you want to take them that you allocate time to them so you get the most out of your cav.
This will keep Cav spamming down in MP and make sure if you want to take them that you allocate time to them so you get the most out of your cav.
Or another option, which would be useful irregardless of our discussion here, would be to let the MP game leader limit the number of various types of units in game. For example, max 6 units of cav per player, max x units of type x per player, etc.
Or, an option in the game menu that allows for this (and possibly let the MP game leader select which option). Or make it modable through some means (not likely given much of the game mechanics aren't, but we'll have to see with this iteration of the game).
I agree that my idea only works for SP battles with pause Whacker.
This isn't necessarily the case. If you refer back to an earlier post of mine, I mentioned how you can set waypoints and not have to pause at all, rather set the initial destination and the charge following it will be automatic. So, in theory, you can just as effectively charge in MP as in SP, no pause necessary.
Oh, and not to be an ass, but lets not highjack Hashashiyyin's excellent thread and keep specific MP discussion where they'd belong. I know I'm not a mod and I hope I don't come off like a douchebag, I'm just saying.
So now, how does one counter a heavy cavalry charge?
Kobal2fr
11-21-2006, 05:53
So now, how does one counter a heavy cavalry charge?
One endeavours not to be on the receiving end :laugh4:
Seriously though, pikes in deep formation, longbowmen with stakes, your own heavy cavalry, horse archers/crossbowmen/javelins, AP infantry charging in after the knight have spent their momentum, all of those can counter knights efficiently enough. And of course, a castle wall provides adequate protection too ;)
So now, how does one counter a heavy cavalry charge?
Braced pikes or a higher quality unit of braced spears. Cav generally gets chewed on pretty good when in a melee.
This isn't necessarily the case. If you refer back to an earlier post of mine, I mentioned how you can set waypoints and not have to pause at all, rather set the initial destination and the charge following it will be automatic. So, in theory, you can just as effectively charge in MP as in SP, no pause necessary.
Can you give this a go and see if it works? Be interesting to see your and others findings, I'm travelling and not near my gaming rig so I'm useless for the next week or so. :grin: My main complaint with this is that it's still more work that I want to do, and if I want to make a change, I'd have to mess with each individual unit of cav and fix them. In a "standard" army I run with 3 units of cav on each wing, that's potentially 6 times I'd have to do this. In SP it's a pain but doable possibly, but in MP that'd be far too much time taken to correct, imo.
Oh, and not to be an ass, but lets not highjack Hashashiyyin's excellent thread and keep specific MP discussion where they'd belong. I know I'm not a mod and I hope I don't come off like a douchebag, I'm just saying.
Nar, not being an ass at all mate. :beam: But I do think that our discussion have been in line with Mr. Hash's OP about charging mechanics. My apologies if I started us down the SP vs MP balancing, my intent was to provide more examples of why I prefer the "single action solution", so to speak.
Cheers!
I concur with you man, and I have to say that when properly executed, a charge in M2 can be even deadlier than in Rome or any version of the game. Just yesterday I saw a unit of 60 dismounted knights get mauled (6 survivors then route after 5 seconds of fight) by a frontal charge of 20 Knights Hospitalier.
The need for properly preparing before a charge adds to realism, but also breaks the rythm of the game and requires to much micromanagement for an enjoyable experience. The "double-click" behaviour of units is indeed moronic in a normal situation, but can be justified when you want to engage units as soon as possible (ie : reinforce a faltering or routing unit, pursue routers, etc...)
On the other hand, I've had quite a few problems with bad single-click behaviour too. If you're too close to the enemy unit, the soldiers will simply walk slowly to engage without any bonus, and if you're too far they'll take ages to get in position. Single-click to attack and toggle the units to run has so far given me about the same result as a double-click.
How do you think the behaviours should be changed? I personally think it's mostly the single click behaviour that should be changed: if single-click on an enemy, make the units RUN to get into charging position, assemble, then charge. I can't thing of many combat situations when I've clicked on an enemy units and wanted my men to attack slowly. If I want my guys to walk in slowly, I simply click in of empty terrain, usually using the right click thing to lay out my army's position.
As for the double click behaviour, I believe it should be pretty much the same as now: engage as fast as possible, and only charge if the unit is already in the correct position to do so. It should however be smoothed a bit to keep formation as actual professional soldiers would (maybe depending on the unit), and avoid the bug where only the front rank engages. Also chasing routers should be optimised.
Don't take me for a whiner, I am very much enjoying the game as it is, and would prefer CA to take their sweet time to come up with an efficient solution, rather than botch up a patch. Also, am I the only one who thinks they deserve a some vacations? It's summertime in Australia now, and they have all these wonderful beaches full of hot girls who just happen to have that special place in their heart for software developers...:beam:
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 06:34
Goods point made by all.
Whacker and Wonderland some of those idea would deal with the SP and MP cav charging issue.
Zoltan you have ID'd the bugginess of the charge mechanism right now.
My fix would be to correct the preset motions of those cav units given a single click attack when inside their charge radius up to a point.
Options
1) Outside charge radius. Walk to preset distance. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
2) At charge radius. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
3) Closer: Form up then, trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
4) Closer: Form up then canter/lances down and bam!!
5) Closer, well at this point or a bit closer then the charge does not work due to lack of space. At this point it would be a simple draw swords and engage with no charge bonus and just using attack values.
With solving the balancing of all Cav units being butrchered by infantry units then I'd say we are getting better.
Sounds easy and I'm sure the CA's guys are just rolling their eyes as it might be hard to do.
What do the 3 of you think?
Lots of stuff
OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.
1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.
2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.
3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.
Great discussion guys.
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 07:04
OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.
1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.
2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.
3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.
Great discussion guys.
1) yes I did mean single left click for those options.
2) Your double click might be a tag powerful though. And yes my options was intended to make sure there is no short ranged missile attacks:2thumbsup:
3) I agree, but I do believe this has something to do with the general unit cohesion bug with regard to the first rank running off by itself while the rest sit around watching.
Although there is specific mention of knights not being disciplined in the unit descriptions. Maybe these units would tend to get out of formation more than other disciplined cav units. You have to keep this in mind also, especially the Frenchies!! :beam:
I also agree. Good discussion!!
Well I was ready to test the cavalry charge concept out in my Venician campaign tonight. Unfortunately, the AI beat me to it.
Milan had one large, well balanced army with 3 commanders guarding their capital in their last province. I was outnumbered about 1400 to 1000 but was fully confident of victory. The Milan army was well balanced but I had a slight advantage in cavalry.
My left flank was formed of 4 Spear militia and 4 crossbows backed up by one unit of Venetian heavy infantry. All 5 of my heavy cavalry units and one mounted sergeant unit were on my right. The standard arrow exchange began and as it neared the end, I decided to move my heavy cavalry onto their left flank. I was going to use my left flank as an anvil and use the cavalry to roll up their left.
Unfortunately, the AI struck first. Three hvy cavalry units moved through their bowman. I quickly formed all my spearmen into schiltrons. Then the cavalry hit, catching and annihilating one slow crossbow unit, but also hitting my infantry hard. They quickly pulled back and launched another cavalry charge. My backup heavy infantry with the hammers were too slow to catch their cavalry before they pulled back. Then came a heavy line of infantry to hit what was left of my 4 militia spear units.
In the meantime, my cavalry hit their left flank trying to retrieve the situation. Unfortunately, their flank was guarded by a sergeant spear unit which prevented me from assisting my right flank infantry. I couldn't get past them fast enough....
My infantry and crossbows were basically wiped out. My Venetian hvy infantry unit survived with one man left but they fought very well and never broke. Ultimately, my cavalry won the battle but not many were left alive.
I won't forget that battle anytime soon. The AI's classic charge was impressive.
Lesson learned. Have at least some cavalry backing up my infantry line.
In some of my other battles, I noticed when units run away, like skirmishers, the charge goes in with swords instead of lances. The problem is skirmishers will usually turn around and fight. Swords might be fine against routing units but not so good when a running unit stops and fights.
Aye, the charge instructions given here are for charging a stationary line. Took some cav earlier against various militia units and slaughtered them. Anything but heavy Halberd/Pike dies in spectacular fashion... if it is standing still. So skimishers tend to throw off charges. Best thing to do with them is either range attack with your own skimishers are pull a hammer and anvil situation.
I just want to throw in my 2 cents too.
I like the basic idea behind the cav in M2. The idea that you cannot just fire-and-forget the cav and that you have to look for proper range for the charge.
Still, there are problems:
- some more automated actions would be nice. If I am at good range for a charge, the cav should line up and turn to face the enemy on their own if I single click them, and then charge as it does now. Micromanaging the unit to face perfectly is a waste of playing time. The turning and adjusting by the unit it self can take a moment, and as long as it is automatic, I have no problems with it.
- cav staying power... A knight fighting on a barded horse with a sword should fare better against undisciplined infantry. Spears should still be good in defending against cav and bracing for charges, but not just killing the cav so fast as now the stationary knights seem to be made out of paper.
- chasing routed/retreating units can still use swords, as I suppose the idea is that moving troops are not a good target for lance charges. I would not have a problem with lance charges done in straight lines at the escaping foes either.
In general I would prefer slightly more automated behaviour in the charges.
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 08:19
I edited and recompiled a updated version of the charging guild to answer some of the raised questions and put it all in one post. find it here :)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72768
AussieGiant
11-21-2006, 08:20
Cav staying power is an issue. That should be solved with a patch. Of course this is only true for some units. Leaving cavalry engaged with swordman, or heavy infantry will usually result in a loss as there are far more of them than cavalry.
With some of the points you raise Rothe, then I think it will work well.
And Jagger.
Can I make a suggestion. Form your cav on YOUR left flank and attach the enemies right flank. Shields are on the left arm of units so missile and cav units should be more effective out there.
You did it the other way around in your example.
grinningman
11-21-2006, 11:25
Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
Just use the shift key to queue up a double click command that runs the unit to where you want the charge to begin, followed by a single click charge command. It's barely more work than double clicking where you want to charge.
Thanks for the great post Hashashiyyin!
I love the overall way charging works now, as opposed to the RTW system, but it does seem a little buggy at the moment. More testing is needed to show exactly what needs changing, though. I might try to do some if I get time.
SFC Tako
11-21-2006, 14:47
Bloody marvelous!!!
I've been playing this game for two weekends now and I've sort of gotten accustomed to not rely on any charges as the charges I tried really didn't do any significant impact. They sort of lacked that "medieval" OUMPH!...
But NOW I know better!!! (I just feel very stupid for not having the patiance to find this out myself).
My spanish cavalry will wreak havoc on the moors now!
Excellent original post, Hashy ~D Many thanks for clearing that up - it'll certainly come in very handy tonight when I kill some dirty Frenchies ~;)
I think that whilst what you say is accurate, inasmuch as charging 1 unit against another requires a single click (yeah, thanks for telling us, CA) and not a double click and that single-clicking is gonna seriously help us with our combat - the new mechanics have totally screwed up lots of other aspects of the game. For one - routing units. Getting cavalry to hack down routing units now requires micromanaging - wtf!? What's all that about? When a unit routs, I wanna be able to select my cavalry and double-click on the routing unit and have my cavalry go finish the off. This never happens! Killing routing units should be quick and painless for the persuing cavalry.
And whilst I don't know whether or not the problem of unit cohesion is directly related to the charging mechanics (I suspect it is), this is something which is the single most annoying thing in the game. How many times have only the front row of my unit engaged the enemy, only to get murdered and send in another couple of guys to their doom. For the love of God, soldiers, ENGAGE! :furious3: This was especially annoying yesterday when I had a sinlge unit of armoured sergeants to deal with (rebels) and I had 3 units of upgraded Spear Militia and my faction heir. Easy, you'd think. I set one unit of spears directly in front of the sergeants and the other two directly to the left and right, facing inwards (of course, I had plenty of time to do this thankis to the passive AI bug) and single-clicked the front unit to charge, which they did, and a second or two later, selected the flanking units together and single-clicked engage also. Each of the two flanking units charged about 8-10 men each into the side of the armoured sergeants and the other 100 or so men in each unit watched as their friends died a rather unheroic and piontless death. Had I not run my faction heir round the back and charged from the rear, I would have lost that battle, whereas if the game mechanics weren't so stupid, as many men as possible would have engaged; surrounding the AS and wiping them out.
So, in summary, whilst I'm very greatful for you pointing out the mechanics of charging, and whilst we're gonna all find it invaluable - CA seriously need to work on unit cohesion cause frankly: it don't work :thumbsdown:
Thanks again, Hashy :beam:
I read the whole post and decided to try this. Then it worked. Thanks, you just made my game a lot better by telling this.
gardibolt
11-21-2006, 16:16
This is because you are giving a double click command with the game paused. I admit this is probably a "bug", but once you unpause, they will only walk. If you issue a double click command while unpaused, they will run.
No, that's not it. I almost never pause the game, other than to answer the phone or something. I always play real time in battles. And double click always goes run for a fraction of a second, then reverts to walk. Very irritating.
BuckNekkid
11-21-2006, 16:24
I used your charge technique in several campaign battles last night and it worked like a charm. THANKS. The impact still doesn't have the satisfying crunch of a RTW cav charge.
.....
The best charges are going to be ones where you give the facing order outside the unit's charge radius, far enough to allow them to fully form up and face the enemy and then single-click on the unit you want to charge. ....
How do you give facing command ?? is there some shortcut or something...
Sometimes it is very annoying in the heat of the battle to set some unit to face the enemy...I mean click and drag to specify order/facing and position doesnt work all the time, especialy if the point you want the unit to go is far away..
so I have to go closer and then click&drag at this time the battle is going..
That is probably the most annoyng thing in battles... and if there is key shortcut for facing the enemy that will be very cool.
Since the original poster has started a second thread with the same name and "2" on the end of it, I guess we should close this one.
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