View Full Version : How to get a good Charge, V2.0.
Hashashiyyin
11-21-2006, 07:57
edited and recompiled from the feedback to clarify some issues. but here you go, V2.0 :2thumbsup:
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Getting your Calvary to actually charge with devastating results is pretty easy to do once you know how and have had some practice with it. I would also like also preface this guide by making one thing clear, charging is very touchy if not buggy and still needs some hammering out by CA. Now it’s time for an explanation of game mechanics and how to get good with Calvary and infantry charges.
First off, the mechanics for ordering your units around is a bit different in M2: Total war. If you want to get good at using the new Calvary system, you need one thing. PRACTICE! Setup a lot of custom battles and just charge Calvary into infantry to start getting the feel on how to charge; when your units will charge, spacing, charge radius, etc.
The key difference between M2:TW, and its predecessors, is the use of single-clicks verse double-clicks. It's a big difference. In all other total war games (to my knowledge and experience), the difference between single and double click only differed with the units movement speed. Single click was a slow march, used to get into position with out tiring your troops. Double click was the "Charge those infidels!" command telling your units to charge into combat.
In M2:TW this has changed a little. Single click is for "engage that enemy" and double click has become get "here" as fast as possible. In light of this, some of the way Calvary behaves in game is a lot less buggy, a lot more realistic, and a lot more user error producing bad charges (again, it's touchy at best and still needs some work by CA). But, if you understand how to use Calvary in M2:TW, this will eliminate a lot of the “user error” part and you can start annihilating with you heavy Calvary.
Also, before we get too far, I want to clear up some confusion about what the "job" of heavy Calvary is vs. light Calvary. Understanding this is critical to using Calvary effectively in M2:TW.
Heavy Calvary only works in a strait, or near strait line. This is realistic as a horse with 100kg+ of armor and rider has too much momentum to turn fast enough and still maintain an effective charge toward a unit actively trying to out-maneuver the charge.
Most people, it seems, want to use their heavy Calvary like light Calvary. This style of heavy Calvary use, was the way heavy Calvary worked, in previous TW titles. But, heavy and light Calvary are NOT the same and cannot be used as such. This is reflected in M2:TW.
So what’s the difference?
Heavy Calvary - Shock troops well suited to destroying STATIONARY groups of infantry. Effective in a STRAIT line or near strait line only! Horses bear well over 100kg in weight from armor and rider and such are bread to be huge, strong, and tough. They are not bread for speed because chasing infantry IS NOT their intended purpose. Forming up, and charging at full speed in a strait line to annihilate stationary or less mobile infantry is, however.
Light Calvary - Lightly armored horses and riders. Meant and bread for speed, and traveling stamina. Their low armor (both in protection and weight) make them ill-suited for charging directly into stationary infantry. They are much faster, far more mobile and flexible then heavy Calvary and this makes them perfect for; chasing down routing infantry, harassing skirmishers, harassing horse archers, harassing engaged infantry from their flank
Another point I want to touch on is on the realism side of how charging works, to give a case for intelligent design of the new charging system and also to give you some understanding of how to use charges in campaign battles and not just canned custom battles.
If you want to make a good battle simulation you have to bridge to gap between real people and the 3D models being hammered out by your video card. The most realistic way to do this is to factor in morale, fatigue, and an overall sense of self preservation at a troop level. This way the troops will act more like a real person and not some automaton that blindly throws himself at death just because he was ordered to do so.
Now imagine yourself at your local football field. At each end zone there is a 100 man formation of spear troops. At 100 meters apart they are well within missile range of each other and in most TW games you'd "double-click" at this point. But pretend you’re in one of the formations and are ordered to engage the other enemy. You could run 100 meters as fast as you can with 50+lbs of armor and weapons. When you got there though, your formation would be totally messed up and you would have no energy left for slamming into and then killing the spearmen that did nothing but brace for your charge. That’s a BAD tactic and unrealistic (unrealistic because doing this would cause a lot of casualties and you wouldn't do it based on self preservation), so how would you realistically charge? You would march, slowly and in formation until you were probably about 15-20 meters away, stop for a moment to close your formation and THEN charge. The same basic principle also applies to Calvary, The shorter of a distance the Calvary starts to charge, the more uniform the charge will be on impact, and thus be more devastating (assuming top speed is reached). So how does this translate into game mechanics?
Well in M2:TW, Single-clicking tells your unit to "engage" another unit. That is, they will walk/trot in formation to a point 15-25 meters away, close ranks, rally and then charge.
Double-clicking tells your units to get "here" as fast as possible. Thus, your units don't "charge" because they are trying to get to that point/enemy as fast as possible and don't have the time to set up for a proper charge. This has become a command for flanking maneuvers and light/archer Calvary pursuit orders only!
Case in point #1(try it in custom battle):
JHI vs. DGK - if you double click on the knights, the JHI start to charge. Their halberds flailing wildly about and they slam into the infantry unit and begin fighting. If you only single click for the attack, the JHI walk calmly and in formation to a moderate distance. They then stop, rally, and then LOWER their halberds to form a spear wall of sorts, and then charge! So single clicking made them engage with an actual charge, using their halberds to lead the way instead of their bodies.
Case in point #2:
GK vs. Armored sergeants. Ok so now it's Calvary vs. spears. Double clicking makes the gothic knights charge the spearmen. Most of the time, they take up their lances at the last minute and instead charge in with their swords. I believe that Calvary can still charge with the double click (as I've seen it happen) but only and if only they are still in tight formation (which is next to impossible if they have been double click moving for more then 10 meters). Single clicking for the attack, will again, make them trot to about 25 meters away, drop lances and charge! The results are truly amazing! Even against spearmen I've killed the whole unit in one charge in my tests! The only units that can take this charge are the unit's with long spears/pole arms that can specifically brace for the impact with the tips of their weapons.
So do I get good with charging? Practice with a lot of custom battles. Most importantly, SINGLE-CLICK your unit if you want them to charge! Double-clicking should only be used for flanking maneuvers where the moral damage is more important then shear impact (i.e. your infantry is already engaged and you want your light Calvary to hit their flanks ASAP to try for a mass route).
Tips and tricks: once you understand the mechanics, getting good charges isn't hard, they just take a bit more time to setup then in other TW games.
Tip 1: Charge radius.
Basically, every unit has a distance between it and the unit it's engaging before it will charge (longer for Calvary, shorter for infantry). Thus if you want to run (double-click) your unit to get them in place fast and still charge, double-click move them into just outside their charge radius (this is where the practice comes in :beam: ). Once just outside that radius (facing correctly and formed up), single-click and your units will charge (you can double click to just inside the charge radius, but this normally causes problems if the formation is off). The trick is to get the unit facing the right way to get a good charge as soon as possible. Issuing facing commands when ordering your units around, as well as fine tuning the facing commands while the battlefield unfolds, will help a LOT with achieving successful charges.
Tip 2: Using Calvary as an opening punch.
I've read more then a few posts about not being able to get Calvary out after the charge. You have to time it well and as soon and the first part of the charge stops, double click on a point behind them and they should be more then able to get out clean, with little or no casualties. But, you have to order the retreat almost as soon as the front line of the charge reaches its target, that way they will pull out immediately after their charge and not get hung up fighting. Conversely if there are NO units behind the charged unit, you can double click ahead of your Calvary (again the timing is key, with issuing the command as soon as the front line hits) to tell them to charge through. Beware though, if there are units behind the initial one your knights will be slaughtered.
Tip 3: How to get Calvary/infantry to charge effectively again.
Basically you have to retreat the Calvary as in #2 above and set them up facing the enemy again, and start the single-click process all over again. Sometime they don't even have to be facing the enemy unit, if you just withdraw them to the edge of the charge radius and single-click, they'll turn and you can get a good charge.
But to truly use the Calvary effectively again after an initial charge, you will have to STRATEGICALLY reposition them outside their charge radius facing the enemy you want to charge again. In previous total war games, Heavy Calvary had the mobility of light Calvary and could be used a lot more rapid fire. This has changed and they are a lot less mobile and flexible in M2:TW. After a charge it will be a WHILE before you can realistically expect to maneuver you heavy Calvary to a position where it can do a lot of damage and not kill itself.
Think of heavy Calvary in this way if it helps you visualize how to use heavy Calvary:
Imagine the heavy Calvary as a giant infantry battering ram. The "parts" to the battering ram are the Knights and the "assembled" battering ram is the knights in formation. The advantage to this, is that, the parts of the ram are self mobile and so, can break down, rapidly move, and quickly reassemble. This assembled ram is like huge Castle gate ram in that it uses a huge amount of kinetic energy to destroy everything in its path, but can only transfer the energy in a strait line, and obviously needs to be fully assembled to work. So to use this “ram,” you have to assemble it facing its intended target, with enough room to build up to maximum momentum, and then charge the "ram" (your formed heavy Calvary) into your stationary (or less mobile) target. Once the forward momentum of the ram is broken, the “pieces” of the ram (your knights) can dissolve and the reform the ram again somewhere else. But, for the ram to be effective again, it has to be set up so it can transfer its energy in that strait line again. So the pieces of the ram have to be told to set the ram up in a good strategic location to maximize its effectiveness. You are the one left to tell the pieces where and how to set up the ram.
The reason your Calvary has to be well formed before it will charge, has again to do with trying to be more realistic (on CA's part) in terms of self preservation. An ill-formed band of knights charging headlong into a mass of spearmen equals death for the knights. On the other hand, a tight group charging in unison equals death for the spearmen. I think a lot of the "buggy" AI comes from the fact that people are giving their troops orders that the AI feels is suicidal when it looks at the quality and facing of its formations. Try actually maneuvering them into formation before giving them orders to attack, the AI seems to agree with this a lot more.
It seems that the days of point-n-click heavy Calvary “god mode” days are over and we actually have to strategically maneuver our forces about to make them effective. The other is a more arcade style of play and truly isn’t at the heart of the simulation style TW series (a 250+ turn, 50+ province campaign of empire building is NOT arcady). I’d still however, like to see it included as an option in a future patch for those who don’t want to learn the new system. But, as for me, even being a little buggy at the moment, I’d never go back! The new charging system is not only more realistic, it forces you to actually maneuver your forces and think strategically about placement and facing. It’s a load more fun once you understand how to use it.
In conclusion, I'm surprised you’re still reading :laugh4: . Hope this helps!! I think the biggest problem with M2:TW is the fact that CA changed a lot on how battle mechanics and campaign map interactions work and they didn't bother to tell us (or anyone) what or why. So were pretty much left to feel that what we are expecting to be there that isn't, is a bug. Without ever knowing what (if any) intelligent design was behind the change, let alone knowing how to use the new system.
Kobal2fr
11-21-2006, 09:19
Most excellent writeup, worthy of stickying !
I'd like to add just the one thing : forget cavalry charges in cities, sieges and the like. Just forget it. You will NEVER pull a cavalry charge off in a narrow street, because your knights will keep on "clipping" with the buildings around them (i.e. the street's invisible forcewalls). The only place you can charge somewhat correctly inside a city is in that wide gap between the wall and the town's first buildings. That's it.
(And, despite this being the result of a buggish game mechanic, i'd say it's quite historical to expect horsemen to die inside a city, just like modern tanks get blown up/disabled oh so easily when streetfighting. Cavalry, armored or not, on horse or treads, needs open fields to work. Streets and cities are infantry grounds.)
screwtype
11-21-2006, 09:33
Very good, but if you want to give advice on this subject I suggest you learn to spell it first. The word is cavalry, not "calvary".
Awesome work, thanks a lot. So a lot of my Teutonic Knights were killed by the bad mouse-clicking skills of General Subedei. Regrets!!!!!
How did you find out all these things? Lots of custom batteling I guess?
Either ways; after finishing my HRE campaign succesfully I started the Turks. I´ll concentrate on horse archery as one may expect. If I find things out about them "not-so-honorable" mates I will try and tell.....
Great post, hopefully it will lower the criticism on the game a bit. I think the new system is great. And if peeps have problems with spacing and the 'bug' that only first row of unit is fighting, here is my solution to that. That too takes a bit of practise.
Very likely CA used other parameters to slow down the combat, avoid the cav blob and improve what I have noticed is defending the rear of a unit. When attacked in the rear now, the last row, sometimes even two, of the attacked unit turns around and starts defending. This is unlike RTW where only a few men defended an attack in the rear.
Anyway to solve the problem of spacing you right click and drag your unit deeper into the melee, press R, and finish it off with a right click on the unit you want to attack when your fellows are in position. Works fine for me, and even gives you an advantage over the AI.
More robust is clicking behind the unit, then right click on enemy unit when in
position.
The old cavalry mechanic (MTW/VI v2.01) was not inferior to this new system. A double click charge from outside the charge distance causes your unit to spread out more which lessens the impact of the charge. If you charge from within the 30 meter charge distance, the charge is less effective because the unit doesn't get up to full speed. If you order a charge in a new direction, the unit forms up before charging. Heavy cav is less mobile than light cav.
The old system works quite well, and, increasing the micromanagement doesn't represent an improvement. Even with the better control in the old system, it's still not easy to maintain full control over multiple units of cav in multiplayer, and positioning the units is important so that they can arrive at the places where needed in time.
You will NEVER pull a cavalry charge off in a narrow street, because your knights will keep on "clipping" with the buildings around them (i.e. the street's invisible forcewalls)
I completely agree, I tried to defend my city streets once with charging knights down the streets and it didn't work at all how it should've. They kept getting stuck and going into walls and such...
Very good, but if you want to give advice on this subject I suggest you learn to spell it first. The word is cavalry, not "calvary".
Thank you for clearing up that most life-threatening issue, I'm sure people were all wondering why he wasn't spelling it right. :inquisitive:
How did you find out all these things? Lots of custom batteling I guess?
Obviously I can't speak for the OP but I read that 'single clicking would cause a unit to charge when in range' in the manual.
The old cavalry mechanic (MTW/VI v2.01) was not inferior to this new system. A double click charge from outside the charge distance causes your unit to spread out more which lessens the impact of the charge. If you charge from within the 30 meter charge distance, the charge is less effective because the unit doesn't get up to full speed. If you order a charge in a new direction, the unit forms up before charging. Heavy cav is less mobile than light cav.
The old system works quite well, and, increasing the micromanagement doesn't represent an improvement. Even with the better control in the old system, it's still not easy to maintain full control over multiple units of cav in multiplayer, and positioning the units is important so that they can arrive at the places where needed in time.
Well said. Sorry Hash, I won't hijack this thread like I did the other one :wink:, but Puzz's statements finally helped me realize what one of the core points was I was trying to make in the previous thread but wasn't able to visualize. My apologies in advance if I ramble here a bit.
Ladies and Germs (and frogs and friends), I submit that the MAJOR points of having a good user interface for a game is simplicity, streamlining, intuitiveness, and easy of use. This is even moreso important for games that fall into the RTS category, which the TW series definitely are. Since I love drawing parallels, I'll use two of Blizzard's extremely popular RTS's, Starcraft and Warcraft 3. Early on in the days of Starcraft, both the publisher and gamers realized that a combination of a very easy to use and documented interface and keyboard shortcuts, coupled with some insanely fast reflexes and practice, would give players an edge both in terms of single-player and more importantly against other players. I don't know if anyone else in here has ever seen replays for these games, but some of the top players are so blindingly fast in their actions it's almost impossible to keep up.
The point here is that trying to balance an aspect of the game through making the interface more kludgy is NOT the way to go. Balance is done through game mechanics such as unit statistics, build times, movement rates, etc etc etc, NOT through making it harder to control units. The system should be very easy to use, and reward those players who take the time to learn, practice, and master it, not make it harder for everyone.
I couldn't think up a very good analogy for this, but the best one I could come up with (for those who've played it) is resource collecting in Warcraft 3. When you send a peon (dabu?) to collect wood, you just select the individual tree, and the peon will go and chop/return until you command him to do otherwise or he's attacked. The system is also smart enough to keep him chopping at other trees when he's done, so you can, through one action, assign the peon to collect wood and he'll do it from a large area with no further guidance. Sure you *could* telling him exactly which trees to cut down (to form a path if you wanted to, for example) but you don't have to, the routines are programmed in automatically. Using the methods which Hash's hard work uncovered and some creative license, if we were to apply this logic to Warcraft 3, one would have to select the peon, click on the tree. When he gets close, command him to stop. Then, click again on tree since he's "in range" to get him started chopping. Then after that, every time you want him to swing his axe, you'll have to click on the tree again. When he's done and got a full load, then you'd have to click on the lumber mill yet again to send him toddling off to return it. Rinse and repeat. I'm sure more than one person will tell me I blew that out of proportion, but the INTENT is still the same.
Bottom line: the interface for the game should be more SIMPLE, not more complex. Balancing a game through making it harder or more complex to use is NOT the right way to go, imo.
Cheers folks:balloon2:
Scottn72
11-21-2006, 16:49
The original post should be a statutory read.
Great work btw.
It would have helped some people if it had been explained more clearly in either the manual or the tutorial.
All the points, while valid, are in the end personal opinions and ideas of how the game should be and how the individuals prefer it to be to suit their own playstyles. I, along with a number of others, think that this new system is a welcomed addition and works well to do what it's supposed to. Of course there have been other opinions expressed that refute this and believe there are better ways they could have gone in developing the system. In the end, all that matters is what the developers chose to go with, and you either go with it or you don't.
What Hashashiyyin has done is simply figure out exactly what makes the mechanics that are actually in the game work properly and provided us with the details as to how to do it ourselves, and even how to think of it for it to make sense. And I absolutely love it.
The interface of RTW and MTW is much more simple and intuitive than MTW/STW, which was one of the problems in RTW because it was poorly implemented. They have streamlined it a lot in MTW2, and I do find the options now, the choice between a charge with lances or just swords an improvement. It is far from difficult to graps, all it needs is a little practise. I use it very intuitive as I have always played this game by the way. Also MP.
RTW had no learning curve at all, which was a major drawback. MTW2 has.
The game deserves much more credit than it gets right now.
A lot of the moaning is simply not being familiar with the game yet.
I find the battles against the AI much more surprising than MTW, I might even state that in some occasions I am outclassed by the AI as was the case in Shoggy sometimes, where I ususally won my battles quite easy nonetheless.
If the patch is well thought of ans some glitches removed, to me MTW2 will outdo Shoggy in every aspect. And Shoggy has been the standard up till now for me.
Doug-Thompson
11-21-2006, 17:45
This is an outstanding post that should be stickied. Still a little long, but it's good.
In the V1.0 thread, someone was wondering if there were any situations where it would be better to charge with swords than with lances. I can think of one: you're trying to run down a powerful foot missile unit, like English Longbowmen. You do not want them to get more shots at you than necessary. In that circumstance, it's probably better to just race in without spending the time forming up.
shifty157
11-21-2006, 18:04
Impressive guide. Ill try your advice out in my campaigns and see if ive been missing out.
In the V1.0 thread, someone was wondering if there were any situations where it would be better to charge with swords than with lances. I can think of one: you're trying to run down a powerful foot missile unit, like English Longbowmen. You do not want them to get more shots at you than necessary. In that circumstance, it's probably better to just race in without spending the time forming up.
In the previous TW version (RTW), ALT + right clicking made the cavalry use their alternative weapon in attack. I was just wondering if this is still the case in MTW 2. Have to test that. My hope is: it would help to alleviate the disorganized formation problem when the MTW 2 cavalary is trying to proper-charge skirmishing opponents. Well, I just tested it: does not really work that way anymore: it seems, some riders randomly switch to spears, some to swords using ALT + right click for attacking.
Also, I think, the BIG problem with the current charge implementation (right click the target once from outside chargint circle) is that for the charge to kick in the target unit has to be in a pretty good formation too (or, so it appears). If the target unit is in a messy formation more often than not, my cavalry would just walk up to the target and engage (rather than charge); the opposite should be true though (the charge being deadlier against messed up target formations). I suspect, this problem is related to cavalry not being able to target routing units properly... and units performing better in loose formation.
Double-clicking charge works perfectly fine as long as the formation does not fall apart due to changing directions and or obstacles.
When double-clicking a target, your heavy cavalry will "March" to the target at "Run" speed and then automatically lower lance to "Charge" as long as the formation is in tact. You do not need to single click from within "Charge" radius.
Heavy Cavalry can flank-charge in this game as much as Light Cavalry can. Try it on a small unit setting with a General's Body Guard unit in box formation. It works nearly every time. But as you make your formation wider, and use bigger unit settings, there's a higher chance of cavalrymen being lost in the formation and gets lagged behind, aborting the charge.
The problem with charges not being carried out with cavalry is the same problem as infantry stopping short of a charge with only first line engaging. It's mostly a problem of unit spacing vs unit collision size. It's a bug, not a feature.
Biggus Diccus
11-21-2006, 21:19
The most realistic way to do this is to factor in morale, fatigue, and an overall sense of self preservation at a troop level. This way the troops will act more like a real person and not some automaton that blindly throws himself at death just because he was ordered to do so.
And yet my infantry/cavalry will happily try to run through a enemy unit if I order them to, being slaughtered in the process. You seriously don't think that CA has managed to simulate each soldier to behave as a real person? CA has dumbed down the effects of morale/fatigue/weather/terrain since STW/MTW imho.
The problem with charges not being carried out with cavalry is the same problem as infantry stopping short of a charge with only first line engaging. It's mostly a problem of unit spacing vs unit collision size. It's a bug, not a feature.
I agree.
gladiator777
11-21-2006, 23:45
This is great, I have been using Spain, which has great cavalry with very little effect in any of my battles. They can kill, but I have never been able to effectively charge with them.
I tested this out in custom battle, and mailed knights crushed armoured seargeants.
Then I went to my saved campaign game and tested it out, It worked perfectly against infantry units, but for some reason they always switch to swords right before they hit the enemy line of missile units, which if they stuck with the lances they would have routed them almost immediately. I lost more men to the skirmish unit because they were all spread out and vulnerable, while they crushed every infantry unit they charged into.
I believe that is the only real issue with the cavarly charge now. I thought it was completely bugged but I was wrong. They just need to make sure that when they charge skirmish units the knights keep the lances.
Fantastic post, its greatly appreciated, my battles will be much more enjoyable now and more effective.
Now CA just needs to fix the siege bugs, inquisitors from hell and make the ai a little more thoughtful, although the campaign ai and battle ai is already better than any rtw version.
Many factions will offer peace when I give them a big spanking, and when they invade my terriroty and I bring my units in place to protect my city, and they know they are outnumbered, they usually run for the hills. For some reason though I have been lucky and not encountered passive ai too much.
While this game does have many bugs which are greatly annoying at times, the first patch should resolve most major issues making this an outstanding game, and amazing mods to come.
gladiator777
11-22-2006, 00:00
As for infantry, they have a huge problem battling in cities, agreed, only a few up front fight while the rest hang back and leisurely stand there doing little. Siege battles are very unbalanced and need to have a major overhaul.
As for battelfields though, I have been able to make infantry charges as effective as the knights using the same techniques. It was great to finally see my whole unit charge and crash into the enemy line. The cohesion problem has to do more with siege battles.
All one has to do is form up the unit, get into the charge radius, click on the enemy and they will charge correctly. It is not the same at all in rome total war where you double click to charge, if you double click in m2tw, the formation will fall apart and they will not charge correclty. It makes sense, they always start out walking, then they go into a trot, and then into a full battle charge in formation, where the whole unit will crash in and begin fighting.
Test these out in custom and campaign battles and you will see this works.
Merlin's Apprentice
11-22-2006, 00:04
Had a battle last night
I commanded 1 of 2 French units 871
the other had 734
We went up against a large English force of 2394
My small band consisted of 4 peasant xbow 1 sgt spearman and 3 mailed knights
the second French unit came in directly behind the English lines
That split the English, archers were left to engage me while the main force routed my reinforcements quickly. Looked like I lost Before I got engaged
I had sent 1 unit of mailed knights diaganaaly to the left and the other 2 diaganaly to the right.
Then used single click for all 3 to engage
WHAM
when it was all said and done
1 unit distinguised itself with 5 xp awarded 2 silver bars on it :)
105 causlaties inflicted out of 738
1014 prisoners caught out of 1325
result clear victory
Was great to see lance charges
big_boss120
11-22-2006, 00:16
I'd like to add some observations. I posted this on TWC but 2 be honest...the forum is full of negative nelly nowadays.
2X click the target the cav will still charge, only under the condition that they holds the formation(not necessary in perfect sync, but in formation) and clear path way
Here's the following:
Ok, after I did some experimenting in custom battles and campaign, the cav
charge(heads-oncharge) does work most of the time if the following conditions are
met:
1. Cav stays in formation en rout to the enemy (not necessary in perfect sync, but reasonably in formation)
2. no huge/many obsticles in the way(small rocks or single tress is not a problem, if their numbers are not too many)
3. The enemies(except archer/xbow types) who are on the recieving end stays reasonably in formation
Charing archer/xbow type infantry just doesnt work unless they are lined up in perfect formation, which isnt ususally the case. Therefore, if No.1 and No.2 are met, tet to charge the infantry in formation(or enemy cavs, but which sometimes line up nicely in formation) behind the archer/xbox. Double and single click doesnt make a difference. While meeting 1 and 2 will result cav to charge once cavs get in "charging radius"
The process is 2 phased:
phase 1: Before getting into charging radius
As said before, 2X or 1X click works regardless. The problem is that if there're enemy units in the way before reaching the charging radius. Cavs will switch to swords and engage these units en route, which often results getting pins by the enemy units so spearmen can rush in and pwns the cav. Therefore, keep a good distance is essential.
phase 2: hitting the charging radius
Once the cav hits the charging radius, they will get into "charge stance"(lowering the lance) followed by triumpet(or horn whatever) and starts running to build momentum. Once reaching phase 2 and 1~2 sec after the trumpet sound, the cav will be almost unstoppable.Then the issue comes: Will the cav stay in charging stance while charging after hitting the charging radius? I have both successs and failures, but most of the time I manage to pull a success. Failures might be caused by unknown reason or freaking accidents or some sort. The failure might be the situation where if at the very moment the cav lowers the lance and begin(just about) to charge and there's an inf unit just right in front of them, then the result will vary. SOmetimes they get bogged down, and sometimes they runs them over like a damn freight train. But most of the time they get bogged down if inf unit manages to get really close in above situation. SOmetimes if the distance btwn inf unit and cav is almost at a lance's length, that inf unit will get run over. In addition, if enemy is shuffling postion while being charged in phase 2, the result might vary depends on whether or not the charge stance is on or not while charing in phase 2.
I can pull off most cav charge at the time but still needs practice. I once applied the above in one of my campaign battles(Spain vs Port, I have nearly all cav units -feudal knights + 1 GBG+ 2 DFK, Port has some spear militia + xbow + 2 cav). The setting is the typical Spainish plain thing(can be seen in Custom battle). I applied the above and charged the well formated spearmen + cav behind the xbow. Amazingly, my cav ran over the crossbow like a goddamn speeding tank and routes to spearmen!!!(very LotR style)
Despite that being said, if enemy is shuffling position is phase 2 then it might result a failed charge. IF they're shuffling position in phase 1 then you can halt and cav and revaluated the situation, reposition, then charge.
Again, I still think current charge condition should be less depended on No.3. At the current state is somehow too dependent on condition no.3
That's my $0.02, goddamnit I cant believe I wasted my lunch break on this LOL
Edit:
Regardless if the enemy target is stationary or moving, as long as they stay in reasonable formation then the above charge will work
Kobal2fr
11-22-2006, 00:59
In the previous TW version (RTW), ALT + right clicking made the cavalry use their alternative weapon in attack. I was just wondering if this is still the case in MTW 2. Have to test that. My hope is: it would help to alleviate the disorganized formation problem when the MTW 2 cavalary is trying to proper-charge skirmishing opponents. Well, I just tested it: does not really work that way anymore: it seems, some riders randomly switch to spears, some to swords using ALT + right click for attacking.
Against skirmishers and routed units, I find it is best to order your horses into loose formation. They won't try to "proper charge" along the way anymore and will only use their secondary weapons. They also won't stop to get back in formation so much.
thanks my charge is awesome now :D
Bullethead
11-22-2006, 04:35
3. The enemies(except archer/xbow types) who are on the recieving end stays reasonably in formation
...
Again, I still think current charge condition should be less depended on No.3. At the current state is somehow too dependent on condition no.3
...
Regardless if the enemy target is stationary or moving, as long as they stay in reasonable formation then the above charge will work
This sounds like something RomoR posted in the sticky thread about battle map research. He found that the best way for infantry to defend against charging cav was for the infantry to be in LOOSE formation. I haven't seen anybody else mention this, and my copy of the game won't arrive until next week, so I can't test it myself. But BB's results above, where disordered infantry causes a failed charge, seems to agree with RomoR's findings.
To me, just from reading this stuff, this sounds like a serious bug. The M2TW results seem to be the exact opposite of historical reality.
In real life, the only chance infantry had of withstanding a cavalry charge was to pack themselves as tightly as possible and present the oncoming horses with a dense forest of sharp, pointy things which the horses refused to fling themselves onto. This is how the Harold's lads stood up to William's for most of the day at Hastings, how the Allied squares stood up to Ney at Waterloo, etc. etc. etc. Cav just couldn't make much impression on tight infantry formations. OTOH, disordered infantry formations were wiped right out immediately by charging cav in real life.
The opposite seems true in M2TW. If the infantry adopts its historical tight anti-cav formation, that's exactly when M2TW cav does the most damage to it. OTOH, if the M2TW infantry is in loose formation, or is disordered and moving about when the cav arrives, then the infantry suvives and the cav gets hosed.
But like I said, I haven't been able to see this for myself yet, I'm just reading posts here. So I'd really like to know. Maybe somebody could to an MP game and test it. Let 1 guy do a completely correct 1-click charge with cav and let the other's infantry meet the charge in tight and loose formation, or be moving around in a disordered manner when the cav hits. It would, I think, be interesting to compare the results.
Boudicca
11-22-2006, 18:35
Wow. Thanks a lot for that great introduction into charging. Seems I just never did it right. Now that I have read your advice, I tried to play some custom battles training it and it worked. So not only did you make a great post but it is also very practical ingame.
Cavalry charges definitely need to be fixed against moving troops.
I have noticed that terrain plays a big role in making good charges as it should. I open fields, the one click charge works perfectly. But if you are in trees or have boulders, etc, charges often don't work...again as it should be. But it is very difficult sometimes to tell whether terrain is bad or not. A small bushes scattered about may be enough to prevent a good charge. I think we need to look at the charge route carefully to ensure your cavalry has a clear unobstructed path to launch a good attack.
The Spartan (Returns)
11-22-2006, 23:38
I learned this on my own and I usually do a double-right click with cavalry on an infantry (if they have to pass the army line to get to open space) walk when in a close position (not just at charging range) or stop if the formation is cranky and BOOM! charge, melee for 2 seconds and retreat back to oringinal places and now for guard flanking duties and flanking.
Doug-Thompson
11-23-2006, 00:19
Gah! I bumped the wrong thread this morning. Should have bumped this one.
:bump: :gah:
That is a great work. Worthy of a sticky ! Good job !
great post, but I have a couple of unanswered questions:
1 - what is the most optimal formation to charge in? is for instance wedge even worth it? I seem to always lose a lot of knights when charging in a wedge, but then again, I didn't know how to charge well before reading this post
2 - how many lines per formation is it most beneficial to have? I usually put my heavy cavalry in two line formation, but is is best to have them in 4-5 lines forming a square instead?
oh also, does charging from a slight angle improve or deteriorate the result? what I mean is as opposed to charging straight into the spear wall (head on), what if I charge them from a 20-30 degree angle? sort of hitting the corner of their formation and not really their pointing spears? is it considered as flanking or does this end up causing more casualties because your knights have to move through a wider area?
ok hope somebody knows the answeres to these questions
thanks
Yes, very well done, extremely helpful. I agree with you that MTW 2 does focus alot more on tactics than RTW, I like it better than Rome where the focus was mainly on the make up of armies and not so much tactics. I also vote that this be stickied.
This is a great post. Stick it!
I have also a Q: What are the values of charge radii for different units?
I would imagine they depend on unit type and speed. But for example for a cav. I once had a Mailed Knigts unit trotting 300 m (give or take), and then masacring spearmen - most likely a succesful charge.
Any ideas on actual values?
AussieGiant
11-24-2006, 06:43
The old cavalry mechanic (MTW/VI v2.01) was not inferior to this new system. A double click charge from outside the charge distance causes your unit to spread out more which lessens the impact of the charge. If you charge from within the 30 meter charge distance, the charge is less effective because the unit doesn't get up to full speed. If you order a charge in a new direction, the unit forms up before charging. Heavy cav is less mobile than light cav.
The old system works quite well, and, increasing the micromanagement doesn't represent an improvement. Even with the better control in the old system, it's still not easy to maintain full control over multiple units of cav in multiplayer, and positioning the units is important so that they can arrive at the places where needed in time.
Having read Puzz3D's explanation of the old style system then I am inclined to regard this as being ideal. It does not take away from the original post because in the end we all need to understand how it works...no matter if we agree with it or not.
I have been playing with the charges alot. I made an all knight force just to see how it works.
For 1, the units being charged cant move 1 iota or else the knights become dumb and going from a charge to a stall.
The part in the guide where if you have a line formation and click attack on the center unit your sides will pick smart targets, well thats not true as my units all angled toward the middle part. Sorry wasnt really a charge issue.
When do units lose their lances? Does time renew them? It seems sometimes I get 1 charge and after that the lances are gone. Sometimes it seems like I get more.
Does unit experience make charging any better? Even when they charge perfectly I still get some that just sit there.
Forget charging in a city, even with a good stretch of land between me and the enemy my units cant seem to get 1 charge to work, radius or not.
Sorry if doesnt make sense am tired and the charges are started to get to me, they look so awesome when they work but you almost need the enemy to sit there and wait for them to get them to be effective.
I wondered tho if its my green units that might be the cause too.
Vicarious
11-24-2006, 09:38
I have read the posts here, and I hear what you're saying.
But I still think the cavalry in R2TW stinks, and have to be somehow bugged.
I play Spain on VH/VH, and have still never managed to get a successfull heavy cav charge with lances down. I try to single click from a good distance, like it has been said in this thread. But it always ends up with my cavalry walking calmly over to their enemy engaging them with theire swords. So I usually get frustrated and end up double clicking, which works a little better. Then my cavalry at least runs up to the enemy and pushes them out of formation. But the casuality-effect is still not good. The reason is probably that they don't use their lances.
I think the cavalry is generally too weak. For example, I engaged a unit of Feudal Knights with two chevrons and lead by a 5-star general, head-up against a unit of rebel peasants. I off course killed them all, but ended up loosing 15/40 knights.
Actually I think Spain looses must of their advantages with early good cavalry when they perform so bad. Frustrating..
#1 Is there something I can do with this?
#2 What's up with this patch we have been promised??
This thread is a great work and very good for the communauty.
But I can't help myself to think : if such a large post is needed to understand how to make a cavalry charge, and if so many people have trouble with it, isn't it, in the end, a proof that the interface/mechanics of the game have a serious problem ?
Beefeater
11-24-2006, 12:31
This is an excellent post, and much deserving of a sticky.
That said, there are still three problems to which we as a community have not yet come up with a solution:
1. Cavalry, when charging, dropping lances in favour of swords for no obvious reason. I see this most often when the cavalry are charging a moving target such as skirmishing archers or crossbowmen, but it also occurs sometimes when they are charging a unit engaged in combat.
2. Lances not renewing after an attempted charge - some or all of one's cavalry just sit there with their swords. Have they broken their lances? If so this should be made explicit. Uncertainty does no-one any good.
3. Charges are supposed to put on speed at a certain point. This does not always happen, with the result that cavalry simply walk into a fight. I see this happen most frequently in cities but, on occasion, also see this behaviour in the open.
We need more transparency about charge mechanics, or at least some kind of official word on what is bugged, what is working as planned, and what steps we can take to get a coconut every time with our charges.
Darkmoor_Dragon
11-24-2006, 12:39
Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.
Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.
It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.
i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.
Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.
:wall:
Kobal2fr
11-24-2006, 13:40
This thread is a great work and very good for the communauty.
But I can't help myself to think : if such a large post is needed to understand how to make a cavalry charge, and if so many people have trouble with it, isn't it, in the end, a proof that the interface/mechanics of the game have a serious problem ?
Not really, no. Or at least, not *entirely*. I believe that what people have trouble with is the change in mechanics at the most basic level, which are (probably) not discussed in the manual. Well, I say probably because, well, who reads TW manuals anymore when you've been playing them all since Shogun :laugh4: (*). Which is pretty much my point : it's the lack of documentation (even in the battle tutorial/advisor) rather than the mechanics themselves that I'd blame.
When you do get the hang of it, it becomes much, much easier to get a good, steamrolling charge in, though I'll admit some other buggy/intended-but-poorly-thought-out features still get in the way sometimes. Things like charges halting when the first few men make contact (but that's less true of cav than it is of inf I think, cav usually spend their momentum but do reach and skewer the first rank regardless most of the time), or the increased anti-blobbing clipping which can get squarely in the way of a perfect charge because there's one man, one rock or god forbid one stupid twig in the way...
I'm confident these things will get fine tuned eventually, and I really believe that the precision and attention needed to proper-charge coupled with the fragility of unbarded horses go a long way towards balancing cav and making it truer to life, without making it either overpowered or useless, which would have been a tricky thing to do with tweaked stats only. YRMD, of course :sweatdrop:
(*) Note : I checked the manual as I was posting this, and nib, nada, zilch on charges, only the bare minimum "right click on an enemy unit to order your men to attack them".
Just confirming that charging skirmishing missile units really does work much better if done in loose formation and with double right click... Ironically, the game "advisor" comes up and tells that "You are charging with a cavalry unit in loose formation. Do not forget to close formation before you hit the target.".... If a player does that - that's exactly when the cavalry suffers the biggest casualties... To me - definitely seems bugged and the opposite of what it should be.
On another note, in the current pre-patch (hopefully) version, charging any target unit (swords, spears, cavalry) that is not in a good formation works much better in loose formation...
The Spartan (Returns)
11-24-2006, 15:37
btw you should "run" charge if someone is charging at you or just running toward your cavalry unit.
Beefeater
11-24-2006, 17:03
...or the increased anti-blobbing clipping which can get squarely in the way of a perfect charge because there's one man, one rock or god forbid one stupid twig in the way...
Leaves on the line eh? If they can stop a train going at full whack, no wonder our knights are having such trouble. But maybe that should just apply to the English...
I am wondering if it has something to do with the new area of influence given to each soldier now instead of treating them as a whole unit.
Today I did a sally on Milan who was using crossbows, I finally lured them ahead a bit and they were just sitting there shooting at my archers. (btw I love how the genosian (sp?) crossbow ducks behind shields to rewind) So I took my knights out, gave them the one click and by god they charged! Once enganged I ran em back because the spear units were coming by this time. By the time I glanced at the field, I noticed that one charged wiped out the crossbow guys completely. Granted they werent full strength but still about 30 strong. My charges never work that good.
Anyways sorry I got sidetracked, later I was fighting some rebels with my cav and I noticed doing the single click charge 1 guy would charge way ahead and it seems as soon as he engages it send that AOE signal so the rest sorta sputter and die.
ALso it seems to work better if you stop the guys move them a bit so they reposition and then click again.
I still havent figured out lances, they need maybe a ammo counter like the javelins in RTW if they are running out.
Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.
Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.
It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.
i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.
Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.
:wall:
Watch the terrain very closely. I strongly suspect terrain is playing more of a role in successful charges then we know. There is actually very little terrain that is the flat open ground that is ideal for a cavalry charges.
Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.
Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.
It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.
i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.
Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.
:wall:
I agree wholeheartedly. Unit cohesion is the matter here, not "realism". The best method so far is "resetting" the formation by clicking the tight/loose formation button a few times.
Lances will go down if the knights walk/run against the enemy without changing direction at any point of their movement. No one-click or double click rule...BUT
1. When they are alredy in movement and the player click the to attack a new enemy they are bound to strafe because the possibilities of the new enemy to be exactly in front of them is small.
2. Knights will use lances even if they reach their enemy walking as long as they did so in straigt line. Of cource the damage will be almost nothing.
3. Knights can charge the whoe battlefioeld with lances if they don't alter direction in the meantime. Again damage will not be as big as it would be if they accelarated about 30-50 meters before the target.
4. Trees or even big bushes intervening in their movement can cause the unit to drag swords.
5. The easiest target for charge is either a stationary unit or one which attacks against the knights.
Von Nanega
11-25-2006, 18:44
Probably just a bit of tweaking is required. I find that my charges work fine if single click is used. The real thought is to remember to disengage and charge again. As was noted early in this thread, one cant just charge once, like in RTW. But I think a patch can fix it.
Kobal2fr
11-25-2006, 21:06
I still havent figured out lances, they need maybe a ammo counter like the javelins in RTW if they are running out.
It's just cosmetic. Sometimes you'll charge, switch to swords to mop up, and the knights will keep their swords drawn from then on. They'll switch back to their lances when you do another proper charge, or when stopped in charge range, don't worry about that (in fact, it's quite goofy to watch. They'll walk towards target waving their swords, then trot a bit, then boom, the lances are back and couched out of thin air the second they start galloping :laugh4: )
Doug-Thompson
11-25-2006, 21:30
For the record, the AI will try to mess up your charge. This is particularly true if the target's cavalry. Everytime I lined up for a charge on an approaching bodyguard unit, he pulled away.
It was sensible, and I like it.
It's all very good and well changing the way we play to take into account of "new game mechanics", but you know what? It's still broken. I wondered why it doesn't say anywhere in the manual or anywhere else that you have to "line up your troops, get them a proper distance away and single click blah blah". That's cause it's broken. This whole thing is flawed and helpful as this post is, it's merely a work-around for a broken mechanic.
How do I know? cause the game is designed to charge just like it always was. Anyone bother to play the tutorial? I remembered doing a charge in the tutorial so i thought I'd check out how CA really wanted us to charge - and it's the good old "double click and let 'em rip" - same as it always was.
Here's the proof.....
http://www.maestro.me.uk/TotalWar/chargingtutorial.JPG
There's the evidence. There's no messing about, no lining anything up, no getting to just outside charging range and then single clicking - it's as we always expected, and wanted it to be: double click and let 'em rip!
I expect this sill be fixed in the patch.
CyanBanana
03-24-2011, 04:47
The mighty Shogun returns! This has all been fixed in Shogun 2.
No more sillyness where a ton of man-horse-metal would hit a wall because another guy in the unit tripped over a peasant. 0_o
No more invisible lances. Just pure, raw generalship.
Results of some tests Yari Cav (me) vs. Yari Ashigaru (meat puppet):
All numbers are for Ashigaru casualties.
Walking (autocharge)
Front: 22, 11, 27, 27
Notes - I think the 11 was when they were running. It appears the autocharge is still too stupid to time it correctly.
Rear: 37
Notes - clearly they were walking. Very kind of them. Not so common in battle, another lovely feature of autocharge.
L Flank: 53
R Flank: 56
Running charge
Front: 30, 25, 27
Rear: 80, 80, 81
Notes - the third one was rear 45 degree. All instant routs, of course.
L Flank: 47
Notes - closer to front 45 degree
R Flank: 54
General (charging) vs General (stationary)
Front amble
5 vs 5 casualties
Front run
4 vs 8 casualties
Analysis: Despite the small sample size and the difficulty of exactly reproducing the conditions, it is clear that Yari cavalry now obey the laws of physics and are not completely incompetent. They are graceful and skilled horsemen - if they hit at an angle they flow over the face of the cannon-fodder. My joy and relief are unbounded. All is well and happy in the land.
New strategy for charging correctly:
Wait for the perfect moment to send them running like whipped dogs. Then look, think, pick you target carefully, break from the woods where the cav were cunningly hiding up to now, get behind the victims, single click to align, double-click to charge and never, ever, autocharge. If they don't break instantly you're not doing it right.
Enjoy it, I sure am.
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