View Full Version : The Turks ?
How are they doing in MTW2 ? Anyone who played in MTW1 played a camp with em ? how's the roster ? gameplay ? realism ? accuracy etc ?
Salute !
Bullethead
11-25-2006, 07:06
Go to the M2TW Guides section (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=78) for a lot of info on how to run a game as the Turks.
Thank you for that info.
The link you provided (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=78) is wrong.
The correct link is:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72061
I am not asking how to run a game as the Turks.
Though the guide does have some useful discussion in it.
I'm asking (I'll elaborate a little here otherwise it would just be a copy paste)....
1. How are they doing in MTW2 ?
2. Anyone who played them in MTW1 played a camp with em ?
3. How's the roster ?
4. Gameplay ?
5. Historical Realism ? accuracy ?
6. All horse armies possible and useful ?
For discussion.
1. How are they doing in MTW2 ?
Like all factions on the south eastern corner of the map. Getting spanked by the Mongols. The Islamic Golden horde always heads south over the Caucases into the Levant.
2. Anyone who played them in MTW1 played a camp with em ?
I have. The Turks were the only MTW factions that I actually finished a campagin with. The M2TW Turks I haven't had the chance to use in a battle yet.
3. How's the roster ?
Good. They have the full range of Islamic generic units. Saracen militia spears (M2TW version of Saracen spearmen and just as useful) and militia Halbreds (a good heavy infantry unit, as Egypt I beat back the first crusade with these two unit supported by Mamluks). Naffatun, M2TW naptha throwers. Their cavalry is mostly HA. They have 3, Turkish HA, Turcomans, and Sipahi HA. The first melee cav unit they get are Sipahi lancers. They're super heavy cav unit is the Qapukulu (Khwarizmian cav and Armenian cav are mercs). Their unique (and none Jannisary) infantry is mostly missiles. They 2 that aren't missile are Azabs, and dismounted Sipahi lancers. Their missile units are Turkish javelinmen and archers, Ottoman infantry, and handgunners. The Janissary crops is archers, heavy infantry, and musketeers. They also get a giant cannon called the monster bombard.
4. Gameplay ?
I've only done campagin map move so far. But the Turkish territories are really spread out. Getting from Iconium to Yeveran will take 4 turns.
5. Historical Realism ? accuracy ?
For historical accuracy the only thing they lack is a Seljuk heavy cavalry unit.
6. All horse armies possible and useful ?
For discussion.
Yes. CA has improved HA again. They are now really good.
Go to the M2TW Guides section (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=78) for a lot of info on how to run a game as the Turks.
Uh, that link was to the RTW guide . . . :wall:
Like all factions on the south eastern corner of the map. Getting spanked by the Mongols. The Islamic Golden horde always heads south over the Caucases into the Levant.
I have. The Turks were the only MTW factions that I actually finished a campagin with. The M2TW Turks I haven't had the chance to use in a battle yet.
Good. They have the full range of Islamic generic units. Saracen militia spears (M2TW version of Saracen spearmen and just as useful) and militia Halbreds (a good heavy infantry unit, as Egypt I beat back the first crusade with these two unit supported by Mamluks). Naffatun, M2TW naptha throwers. Their cavalry is mostly HA. They have 3, Turkish HA, Turcomans, and Sipahi HA. The first melee cav unit they get are Sipahi lancers. They're super heavy cav unit is the Qapukulu (Khwarizmian cav and Armenian cav are mercs). Their unique (and none Jannisary) infantry is mostly missiles. They 2 that aren't missile are Azabs, and dismounted Sipahi lancers. Their missile units are Turkish javelinmen and archers, Ottoman infantry, and handgunners. The Janissary crops is archers, heavy infantry, and musketeers. They also get a giant cannon called the monster bombard.
I've only done campagin map move so far. But the Turkish territories are really spread out. Getting from Iconium to Yeveran will take 4 turns.
For historical accuracy the only thing they lack is a Seljuk heavy cavalry unit.
Yes. CA has improved HA again. They are now really good.
Thanks Lars. Sounds pretty ok.
Basileus
11-25-2006, 20:01
Being a Greek i just love playing as the Turks, i found them the most fun faction to play besides France when i want to role play with crusades etc.
Kanamori
11-25-2006, 20:24
Like all factions on the south eastern corner of the map. Getting spanked by the Mongols. The Islamic Golden horde always heads south over the Caucases into the Levant.
I haven't noticed this. The Mongols start in Kiev, and they didn't attack my turkish empire until they were into the poles and germans to the the north.
The campaign is easier than it was in MTW. There are more rebel territories around to take, but it is still pretty much guaranteed that the egyptians and byzantines will attack you early or mid game.
The territories are quite spaced out, and a system of watchtowers and forts is useful, as well as a strong navy. They have a strong position. Bordering both the mediteranian and the black seas, they can get troops to surrounding areas quickly.
The Jihad gives the turks a new weapon, compared w/ MTW. They can be called against any non-muslim faction at their capital cities, and for the rebels in various big cities. The only thing is that one must wait some amount of turns before calling another jihad, which are called by pious imams. (I'm not exactly sure on the mechanics, and I will look into it.)
The army selection is a little funny. First, there are no x-bows. While I haven't looked at the stats of all their units very closely, there do not appear to be any archer units which could be used well against pavs. Unless aspects of MP have changed very drastically, the turks won't be a good choice for most team game after early era. Their unit selection of HA and semi-armored inf means that the player will have to attack quickly if they are playing a good opponent who has pavs.
They have a few new units that come to mind too. The turkish archers are good frontline archers. They are one of the few units with extended range; longbows and armenian archers (a mercenary unit) are the other two units w/ extended range that I know of. Siphahi lancers are another new unit. They do well, but I am not sure if turkish cav can handle the late era horse units of the catholics.
The Mongols in my English Campaign took out Russia rather than the Holy Lands.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
11-25-2006, 22:10
I am currently playing the Turks, and have been since the day I got the game. It's been a long, exhausting but extremely fun and entertaining campaign so far. Here are the current borders of my Ottoman Empire, down in the minimap:
https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/239/0401jc8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
1. So, I'm doing well. I started off by running around taking settlements. Then, the Byzantines declared war soon after, maybe 5 turns into the game. I attacked them and took Smyrna, Nicaea, and Constantinople. I killed their emperor and crown prince outside Nicaea, and when I took Const, they sued for peace and asked for a ceasefire. With the Egyptians having recently attacked me to the south, I agreed, because I hate two-front wars.
After a relatively quick 30-turn or so war I defeated the Egyptians and they were destroyed, except for a small presence in leon which a successful Jihad landed under their control, but was finished off and taken my the Moors soon after. That landed everything from Constantinople to Cairo to Tblisi under my control.
Then the Russians attacked my border forts near Tbilisi, so I counterattacked them and took Sarkel, which I've since turned into a massive fortress-city to prepare for future Russian attacks and for the Mongols, who still haven't showed up despite my getting the warning for them 70 turns ago.
After that I proceeded into a long, drawn-out war to finish off the Byzantines, which ended not long ago. During that conflict, I decided I was SICK of the pope sending crusades to Jerusalem, and had to do something about it. So, I declared a Jihad on Rome and sent my best, most experienced troops to capture it. Italy is now my current primary front, with Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, and Italy from Naples to Bologna under my control. The Milanese love resisting, and the newly-relocated pope keeps calling Crusades on Rome to take it back. But he can't have it!
Currently, I'm focused on capturing Milan and the other cities Milan has in Italy, while also bolstering my armies and defenses along my eastern borders to prepare for the Mongols. I've maxed out Sarkel and Yerevan's city defenses, giving them cannon towers, and I've done the same with my Citadel at Tblisi, which also has cannons, janissary infantry and archers, and heavy cav waiting inside. Also, I'm engaged in a naval war with the Moors, who are the other major superpower in my campaign. Islam has definately become the major world religion in my campaign.
2. The Turks were my favorite MTW1 faction, are are my favorite in M2 as well. They retain the same structure: heavy janissary infantry, archers, and gunners supported by loads of horse archers and heavy cavalry. Their starting position in M2 is a bit easier, simply because of the vast difference in the campaign maps. The Turks have lots of natural barriers to help them with their defense, what with the mountains all over Anatolia. They start out in immediate reach of the Holy Lands, which are of course quite wealthy. However, if you blitz the Holy Lands then you're guaranteeing your getting into conflict with the Egyptians and catholic Crusades early on, which, given the Turks' very limited starting forces, could overwhelm you.
In the early period, the Turks rely on horse archers. Until I got janissaries, my armies were completely made up on Turkomen and Sipahi horse archers. They're quite effective, and those Sipahi archers are even nasty in melee fights. Most of the time, all you need to do is surround an opponent and charge in from all directions and they rout almost immediately, but it's not that easy when fighting Egypt or the Byzantines, who are also two horse archer-heavy factions. Surprisingly, those two factions present the biggest threats you'll face, simply because their strategies are similiar to yours in reliance on cavalry and archer power.
3. The roster is everything you could possibly want. You start out with modest Turkish Horse Archers and Turkomen, who are fast moving but lightly armored horse archers. Soon enough you'll get Sipahis, which are horse archers in medium armor and have high attack, so they can more than hold themselves in a melee. Then, you'll get Sipahi Lancers, which are good light/heavy cavalry and will help lend a much bigger offensive punch to your army.
Later, you'll get Janissary Heavy Infantry, which are an essentially unstoppable force when you support them properly. They can defeat any infantry you'll come in contact with, but still get smacked by cavalry if the cavalry charges over open ground. Janissary Archers are very good for defending walls, which is all I really use foot archers for anyway. Long range and high damage makes them great for taking out those siege towers. I find that foot archers just slow down the Turks' mobility-based armies, so I'd advise you stick with horse archers. When gunpowder comes out, you'll get Janissary Musketeers, which I haven't actually gotten to use yet. My top-level barracks needs two more turns to complete before I can train them, but whenever I've used them in custom battles, they've always performed quite well.
At the very end of your cavalry roster are the Qappakulu. They are your elite, tank-armored heavy cavalry who can deal with anything. Once you get these guys appearing regularly and in large numbers in your armies, very little can stop you. They make a great hammer & anvil combo with janissary infantry.
You also get all the peripheries like Naffatun and various militia. I have never used either in battles before, only cavalry and janissaries. I'm also just starting to get cannons now, which should be interesting.
Here's my standard army roster:
1 General's Bodyguard
7 Janissary Heavy Infantry
6 Qappakulu
4 Sipahis
2 Turkomens
Some of the earlier, weaker units actually retain their usefulness later in the game. For example, Turkomens, despite being avaliable from turn 1, retain a place even in my late-period armies because they are fast moving and are the only cavalry capable of actually chasing down and killing other routing enemy heavy cavalry and general's bodyguards, who would otherwise be uncatchable.
4. Well I covered most of the gameplay above, I suppose. I do NOT recommend you use infantry in your armies till you get janissaries. The Turks are ALL about mobility, and there's no sense in incorporating infantry into your armies, which inevitably greatly slow down your mobility, unless they are strong enough to really make the change worthwhile. Rely on horse archers and lancers till you can get heavy infantry.
Once you've expanded and captured Tbilisi and Constantinople, you'll have very stable and easily defensible borders. Down in Egypt, the three cities in the egyptian heartland make a convenient sort of barrier, as they are all close by and let you raise a significant last-resort defense army in little time if you need to. I recommend capturing Tripoli and making it a heavily defended position, because the AI always travels along roads to attack and the only road through north africa to Egypt goes through Tripoli.
Cities I DEFINATELY recommend you make into castles: Nicaea, Tbilisi, Tripoli. This will let you cover all three fronts. Unfortunately I captured Tripoli too late, and it was already a minor city. Thus, I have to keep shuttling troops between my castle on Sicily and Tripoli via my navies in order to keep it at full power. Gets time-consuming eventually.
5. I don't know much about the history of the Turks, but all I can do is respond to this:
For historical accuracy the only thing they lack is a Seljuk heavy cavalry unit.
That's quite untrue. The Turks get Qappakulu, which are some of the best heavy cavalry-tanks in the game and can even put knights to shame.
6. Yup, all-cavalry armies are entirely possible. When I captured Rome, I did so with two armies - one entirely cavalry, the other with 7 units of Janissaries in addition to cavalry. I sent the Janissary army down south to capture other cities since they had infantry to do sieges, while ym cavalry defended Rome. After fending off An English Crusader Army, a Polish Crusader Army, a Hungarian Crusader Army, a Milanese Crusader Army, a Spanish Crusader army, a fulls tack of Sicilian troops, and three stacks of Milanese troops, my army was still in functioning order, though barely. Luckily, by that time my infantry army had finished and come to relieve them so they could go replenish their losses on Sicily.
Here's a shot rom one of the later-battles, which the wear really beginning to show on my archers. The Heavy cavalry, as you can see, was still at nearly full capacity. Most of my archer's losses were due to those dang Geonese Crossbows:
https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7495/0390jjjso1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Well, hopefully I answered your questions. I'd definately recommend a Turkish campaign. It's hard, and their armies are very much tuned for irregular warfare, so it may take some getting used to if you just came out of a Catholic campaign, but it's damn fun and there's tons of opportunities for expansion and you have to be careful with each one.
Zenicetus
11-25-2006, 22:48
4. Well I covered most of the gameplay above, I suppose. I do NOT recommend you use infantry in your armies till you get janissaries. The Turks are ALL about mobility, and there's no sense in incorporating infantry into your armies, which inevitably greatly slow down your mobility, unless they are strong enough to really make the change worthwhile. Rely on horse archers and lancers till you can get heavy infantry.
Nice write-up! I want to run a Turks campaign next (currently doing Spain), partly because I'm not very experienced with horse archers and need to learn those tactics.
What's your recommendation for sieges with a cav-heavy army like that? Especially in the early game. Do you use any infantry at all, or open gates with spies, starve 'em out, or what?
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
11-25-2006, 23:20
For sieges, I either starve them out, or just hire mercenary infantry on the way there. Spies to open the gates are always very helpful. If the garrison is large, I usually just starve it out. If it's small, I storm it with mercs, who are completely expendable. You'd think they'd have figured that out by now, and stopped volunteering.
Burakius
11-25-2006, 23:51
Played Turks 121 turns now. They are hard in the beginning becauze of Byzantine and Egypt. Sometimes its like everyone is against ye. ( wich it will be probably). Then after you defeat Egypt sit back and slay Europe... UNTIL MONGOLS COME!. After that I got an error :P .. so thats it
I haven't noticed this. The Mongols start in Kiev, and they didn't attack my turkish empire until they were into the poles and germans to the the north.
Of the 5 campagins I have past the Mongol arrival all but one have them conquering the middle east and ignoring Russia. Now if your a faction from the area it might be different. My Russian campagin is saved just after the Mongol appearance.
The Mongols can appear in one of 5 provinces. Bulgar is the northernmost, Baghdad is the southernmost. Where they go from that point varies from game to game. Since the Turks almost always get Tbilisi and Baghdad, and begin with Yerevan, you have to figure it's a 60% chance that the steppe invasions will be a Turkish problem.
Kanamori
11-26-2006, 02:23
I got lucky, then. That'll be good to keep in mind in future games.~:cheers:
Nice write-up! I want to run a Turks campaign next (currently doing Spain), partly because I'm not very experienced with horse archers and need to learn those tactics.
What's your recommendation for sieges with a cav-heavy army like that? Especially in the early game. Do you use any infantry at all, or open gates with spies, starve 'em out, or what?
i am running a turk campaign at the mo, and i also field cavheavy armies. i usually include a few foot units for seiges - particularly the cheap ones you get when you jihad. to keep moementum i will often send the cav ahead to start the seige and build the equipment, and let the inf catch up the next turn to operate the machinary
a general stategy for suing horse archers - (if you re facing a non missile cav army) try to completely surround the opponent with your ha's so that they have arrows raining in form all sides - this is very hard to defend against and results in high casuallties. seveal of the turkish has have reasonable melee ability so alter on your can charge them into the back of engaged enemy troops.
if the enemy has missile cav try and deal with them first. often they will have just a few and they will be stationed on the wings. manouvre your troops so that they surround them and then charge in for the kill.
i concur with alot of what IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer said, with the exception that ishould point out that the turks do get very solid milita units by the third city watch building. this is namely the saracen militia, which is comparable to an armoured seargant.
Been busy with my first campaign.
THANKS for the replies everyone !
Now I'm around turn 30, will post my observations later. Have a question, on my screen I see turns and not years (on campaign screen). How do I change that ?
The Barneys are back in Greece. Had about 15 battles with them, mostly small-ish ones. I found it hard to field an all cav army. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, economics-wise ? I had 2 groups of 8, all cavalry, Turcomen + bodyguards. With that plus 15 Infantry 'siege army' I beat them back to Thessaloniki. But most of their losses were to the all cav raider groups. The infantry army was just sitting in Iconium or at Constantonple (later). I won every single battle, but it was expensive to replace the minimal losses I took. Don't know why.
And ....err I had another problem as well.
Speed *ahem* at times I could'nt remember what is where. Been a while ~;)
I'm very happy with the SP experience so far, overall.
POWER TO THE SULTAN !!!
I got lucky, then. That'll be good to keep in mind in future games.~:cheers:
You are one lucky person...they trample across my heartland like Timurid eles.....:wall: :skull: :wall:
...but I will survive and get REVENGE.....
....or try to become their friend.....:beam:
Spartiate
11-27-2006, 14:04
I'm a long time vet of the TW series since way back in the STW days and i have NEVER experienced anything like the difficulty i had dealing with the Mongols as the Turks in M2TW. I'm ashamed to say i was reduced to exploiting them at river-crossings and/or trying to isolate single stacks with multiple stacks of my own.I am quite pleased by this as i look forward to playing multiple Turkish campaigns and finding new ways to deal with them.When i eventually ground them down completely [They kept forming a horde and returning] the Timurids were almost ready to pop in and say Hi.All this coupled with Crusaders passing through my lands and my neighbours in Egypt who aren't feeling very neighbourly at all adds up to probably the toughest campaign i've ever fought.
Spendius
11-27-2006, 16:38
Nice review. I am myself about at the same stage in my Turkish campaign (I will recruit my first janissary musketeers in 8 turns, have 2 giant bombards but haven't tried them).
The early game is quite difficult, the byzantines are tough and the early turkish troops are weak. I relied on militia and mercs to absorb damage and spare my expensive sipahis.
Crusades gave me some fun. First crusade was launched on Antioch, only 2 nations joined but defeating them made me hated by the whole christian world. 2nd crusade launched on my capital, constantinople, was more serious but beaten nevertheless. I lauched a Jihad on Venice for retaliation, and keep defending it from the bridge.
My major problem is the Mongols. I have to keep about 5 full stacks in the middle east, periodically attacking them, taking a crushing defeat and retreating to replenish... I have beat the first wave - 5 full stacks, and am about to test my new gunpowder weaponry on the second wave - another 5 stacks.
Fighting the mongols is funny ! I was expecting them to be strong after what I have read, but they were beyond my expectations. In the first battle, I attack them with a full stack of my best troops, and a good general, on a bridge. I expect them to have missile weapons, so I could sit on my side and train my artillery. Nenni ! First thing they do, is rush on the bridge with like 10 units of cavalry. "This will be a cakewalk" I think, with my spearmen sitting on the end of the bridge, powerful ottoman infrantry and sipahis behind ready to shoot, and catapults for some additional fun. Well, the cavalry (horse archers...) rushed forward, through my whole army as if I had nothing, not even stopping. Quick, bitter defeat.
Naffatun are great ! stick 2 or 3 units on the second ring of a fortress, and watch them flee !
HaroldVonBraver
11-27-2006, 16:39
I am currently playing the Turks...
Nice review and well written. I enjoyed reading it.:book: I think I'll play as the Turks in my next campaign.
Turn 50, don't even control the whole of present day Turkey yet. Harder than MTW1, much harder. Much better too !
EVERYONE is crusading against poor old me. All I did was to take Constantinople in retaliation for an unprovoked attack on ME, BY the Barneys ! Now I have fought about 5-6 Crusading armies of different nations. Wiped them completely, but they are getting harder, and the heavenly divinity of the knights is beginning to show through their imortality. HOWEVER, it is MUCH better than MTW1, Turcoman horse actually have a decent chance against knights, which is really fair. Big improvement from MTW1.
I love it. I have'nt got any advanced units yet, but I love how simplified the roster is. This is way better than MTW Turk roster. It can be better still, but I love the simplicity already.
BTW I can't find on the building browser, the buildings required to train JHI. Does anyone know ?
Also I guess the main archer unit should be Ottoman Infantry until Jani Archers arrive ?
This is FUN ! Have to remember to sleep sometime....soon....
IIRC from my investigation of the Turk tech tree. All jannisary untis come from the top barracks building. JHI (musketeers after gunpowder) from a huge city, archers from a citadel.
JHI come from the town halls, starting with the Dar al-Imara (large city).
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
11-28-2006, 09:52
All Janissaries come from cities. JHI require a Dal-al-Imara, and can be upgraded to a Sultan's Palace, which are in the Town Hall/Council Chambers tree. The Archers and Musketeers require the most advanced Town Watch building..a City Barracks or something? I forget what it's called exactly.
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