View Full Version : My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)
briny_norman
11-26-2006, 16:09
Hi, I've been playing the English for a while and I'm having some problems withstanding Mongol and French cavalry attacks.
The problem is, I don't really have anything to counter the cavalry with - aside from other cavalry. Levy and militia spearmen are too weak and all the different variations of billmen suck - their defence values are ridiculous, no bonus against cavalry and they haven't even got a special formation. I once threw a unit of billmen into a crowded melee (castle fight) and they all perished without killing a single enemy soldier... LOL
But anyway, according the the unit roster in the custom battle screen the English are supposed to have access to armoured sergeants as an early unit - but I haven't seen them in the campaign game. I've checked the building browser and according to that there are no English buildings that produce them...?
Has anybody found the English armoured sergeants in the campaign yet?
And by the way, while we're at it - how do I get a woodsmen's guild?
By building farms, perhaps?
Personally i find it absolutely pathetic that England hasn't got a single spear unit to counter cavalry with... If this was intended then someone at CA didn't do their job properly.
Faenaris
11-26-2006, 16:44
Well, I think England doesn't have a spear unit because they wanted to differentiate the factions in the campaign. Then again, Billmen are supposed to be your cavalry killers, but they fail miserably.
Then again, Spear Militia with Max upgrade (heavy chain mail) can take a charge. You just gotta swarm the cavalry once they are stationary. ~:)
EDIT: The Woodsmen guild: I think you need to have castle that has no guilds and that keeps training archers and archers (nothing else). In the end, you'll get it.
Merc spearmen are equals to armoured seargents. These are available from the start. Also, use stakes on your longbowmen. These stop cav charges cold and even infantry have a hard time getting through. Levy spears and spear militia can soak up cav charges in mass as well.
Higher tier longbows are also capable melee fighters.
That's not the point though is it. Archers are there to fire arrows, not to fight cavalry. Wooden stakes are there to protect the archers, but the cavalry doesn't always charge into them. Levy spearmen don't do the job well enough, upgraded or not. They may stop a cavalry charge, but they don't exactly destroy the unit.
Billmen... Don't even get me started. I will never recruit a unit of billmen again. As England i replaced the 6 or so spear militia units in Caen with billmen for defence... The Danes attacked with a tiny force of archer militia and spear militia, and my 6 units of billmen got absolutely pummelled and i lost Caen, they killed all my billmen, and my billmen inflicted less than 200 casualties... On levy archers and spearmen... And to send billmen against cavalry, any kind of billmen, is similar to throwing an icecube into a fire...
It don't last very long.
England needs sergeants... There's no two ways about it, and there's no way anybody can defend the decision not to give England spearmen, because England had spearmen.
The main problem with billmen is that their animations seem bugged so they hardly ever attack in a melee, which severly weakens them.
The point is that you can do well even without the armoured sarges.
Merc spearmen do quite well, just a tad expensive. Levy spears etc. are just to pin. Always use your swordsmen/cav to flank and destroy the unit.
I just about never rely on my main infantry line to kill, just to hold the enemy in place so I can flank and crush.
briny_norman
11-26-2006, 17:20
Well, seems I'm not the only one missing the sergeants.
I will have to rely on mercs instead, I guess, and give my levies some heavy armor upgrades.
One thing about merc spearmen, though: There's none of them in the middle east where I'm fighting the Mongols right now. Unless you go on a crusade and pick up some of those crusader sergeants (they're pretty badass, though - best spearmen in the game it seems).
I must admit I haven't really used the ability to plant stakes that much - seems I'm mostly on the offensive and as you can only plant stakes during the setup phase, well....
But perhaps I should try and utilise that ability a bit more - English archers having the ability to plant stakes is probably part of the reason CA didn't give the English proper spear units anyway.
Some times you can tempt the AI into attacking your lines even if they are on defense. Deploy as far forward as you can helps.
Crusader sarges solve the problem on crusades. If you don't rely on spears to kill and just hold, militia/levy works fine with a decent general (so they don't break).
Darkmoor_Dragon
11-26-2006, 17:51
England relies on longbowmen and stakes - always try to lure the enemey on to you and the levy spearmen will work fine. Deploy them deep and they can both withstand cavalry and destroy them. Also use the schiltron as this is very effective against cavalry.
The AI will try its utmost to avoid your stakes - use it to your advantage - plant a schiltron at either end to avoid cavalry flank attacks and your heavy foot behind.
Your billmen are useful purely for flanking attacks (not sure if this is intended but...) so park them to the rear of the your heavy foot - then rush them out, round the side and into the flanks of the enemy - they will tear armoured units to shreds in such instances (but not if you "blob" them up with other units)
English tactics are the same for virtually every encounter and you are utterly reliant on longbows doing your primary damage and, to be fair, the only chance the AI usually has is either a flank attack or a head-on bum-rush en-mass.
Things NOT to do:
Dont use levy spearmen in long thin lines - they get slaughtered (deploy deep)
Dont use billmen for ANY defensive role, especially walls - they completely and utterly suck defensively (even the heavies).
Never NOT plant stakes, even when attacking - they will ALWAYS give you somewhere to fall back to if everything goes totally titsup
NEVER run your own cavalry through stakes unless it is absolutely dead-on-dick through them from behind in a straight line (otherwise you will slaughter your own cavalry)
Tips:
Always defend walls, where possible, with a unit that has a shield - you dont get formation bonuses on walls or in the streets (it seems) so shield-bearing units are always going to be the toughest in those situations - a schiltron of levy spearmen in a narrow street can be very impressive. For walls ideally use heavy foot with shield and sword (or shield and hammer such as Heavy Venetian foot)
If defending a bridge use double rows of stakes either side of the road (you cant place stakes on roads) - plant spearmen in between them to block the road and back them up with heavy foot. The second row of stakes acts as a fallback position and will stop mass cavalry just pushing though your lines - they will also disrupt any foot formations.
Dont "blob up" - it appears there may well be big negatives for blobbing in MTW2
Your Retinue (and to some extent Yeoman) archers are damn fine reserves in a tight brawl - dont treat them as "woosey" archers, they aren't.
Sherwood Foresters are surprisingly good unit in mellee also
Plant stakes behind castle gates when defending a town/city (rush the longbow unit onto the wall when you start the battle) - place spearmen behind the stakes and to the sides - watch the AI slaughter its cavalry if they ram open the gates!
(You get the woodsmans guild by recruiting archers - always recruit just archers from one location and you will *always* be offered that guild at that city/castle. If you recruit all sorts of troops from one spot it is pot-luck as to what you get as a guild (if anything)
The Schiltron formation WORKS, so try it!
malkuth74
11-26-2006, 18:08
If you look at the Description of Billman they only have a defense of 5, which is very weak. But have an attack of 13. Billman are an Offensive unit, not a Defensive one.
nameless
11-26-2006, 18:38
Any unit that lacks a shield is obviously meant for offensive roles. Aside from pikemen.
Heavy Billmen can take on most infantry units so long as they charge and are on the offensive head on.
There seems to be a problem with their animation when it comes to cavalry.
Technically speaking though, Billmen are effective against cavalry, especially armored cavalry but their not for the hold the line chage, their the after bog down. Hopefully the patch will fix their correct speed, surely CA hasn't missed this.
But then again you got dismounted english knights which are techincally the same thing but with higher stats so there's no point for billmen.
However, the english longbows are excellent reserves, especially with their AP ability. Always use them to their fullest potential.
Note that you should use and abuse your armoured swordsmen. They are the finest infantry unit the English have (super low upkeep). Also, they are better than billmen and dismounted English knights due to the cav attacking bug the latter experience.
The bug is spoiling my English experience, but in a field battle, spear militia, longbows, backed up by a few armoured swordsmen and cavalry is more than enough to slaughter everybody. The killing system has been changed from Rome, where a unit of peasant would be most lucky to kill a single person from an Urban cohort; even peasants can kill a few Dismounted Gothic Knights now. Anyway, why do you want to put your expensive heavy infantry in the front line anyway, since cavalry can kill the entire unit with a single 'perfect charge'?
IrishArmenian
11-27-2006, 06:45
More than likely, this will get patched, but I would say, deal with it. There must be a tactical way around this. Use what little time the levy spearmen give you to wheel around and charge the back of the formations. Maybe udgrade your towns.
i used alot of merc spearmen in my english campaign.
I've managed to get around the uselessly bugged units and get by with the nearly hopeless spearmen as a hedge unit but what really chaps my arse is the duplication of low end militia in castle and town. Nearly identical stats, cost and upkeep but different name and different unit card.
So, instead of having alternative unit to build it's just another management PITA when you have the 2 types mixed in an army.
Jimmytwohand
11-27-2006, 10:40
I need to second the levy spearmen/schiltron combo. I experimented with levys in the front line to stop any cav charge and they were slaughtered so gave up. Later i tried the schiltrom and they held up very well. They will still take casualties but as long as they are upgraded and snug behind some stakes they seem to mow down any cav that try to tackle them head on. Levys/ armoured swordsmen and a swarm of retinue longbowmen with stakes out is a very powerful and versatile force. Im not moaning about it anymore. The English strengths more than make up for their weak area.
Von Nanega
11-27-2006, 13:03
Those Billmen in my experience are kind of useless. Personally I think if they are fixed with patch they will become the offensive unitb they are supposed to be. Levy spearmen do the trick and I figure lots of lossess for them in battle. One of the things I do for the levies, I combine units after combat so that over time they get the experience they need for later days. then I train up green ones and fold them into the battle line.:smoking:
chunkynut
11-27-2006, 13:05
Note that you should use and abuse your armoured swordsmen. They are the finest infantry unit the English have (super low upkeep). Also, they are better than billmen and dismounted English knights due to the cav attacking bug the latter experience.
This was my route too, just completed my first English grand campaign and the Armoured Swordsmen are the main body of your troops with dismounted English Knights and Billmen (if you bother) for flanking manouvers. I use 2 levy spears on either flank to basically die, or slow down any cav/infantry trying to flank me. Added to the massive killing power of the archers this makes any unit that comes within spitting distance of your men run away at the first sign a unit may engage them, I've had mass routes from 1 armoured swordsmen charging 1 of 4 spanish swordsmen after they had walked through my arrows.
Armoured Swordsmen will fight to the last man, and so will spear militia and levy spearmen when in schiltom formation. This makes these spear units perfect for city defense.
Mercenaries are your best friends especially since you can retrain to bring the unit size back up to full. And they aren't Englishmen, who cares if they die? :wink:
Lastly the English not having Armoured Spears is NOT a BUG. It is a balancing change for MP not a SP problem.
briny_norman
11-27-2006, 13:55
Some great advice on tactics, here guys - thanks alot. There's definitely a few things here I haven't tried.
Last night I was close to pulling out of the holy lands as the Mongol Horde combined with jihads from Egypt and Turkey were just making the experience too expensive. The costs were beginning to hold back development in my settlements in western Europe.
But armed with some of your tactics (and Sherwood archers soon, I hope) I think I will give Kingdom of Heaven one last try...!
And to round things off: I don't really mind the English not having a true spear unit. It forces you to try different tactics and thats cool enough. Makes the game last longer.
Cheers!
WilliVonBill
11-27-2006, 14:42
Well... if you don't mind using an "enhancement" <cough> cheat code <cough>... then you can have armored sergeants in your English campaign.
For a North American keyboard, press the tilde "~" key to open medshell. Type in the following syntax...
create_unit London "Armored Sergeants" 2 9 3 3
... this will create 2 units of armored sergeants with 9 experience, 3 armor, and 3 weapons upgrades in London. Those appear to be the max values for experience, armor, and weapons. You can use what ever values (or no values for that matter) that you wish. You can create units in any city or castle you want. Just substitute London for say... Gaza, or Nottingham, or whatever. Until we get the unpacker and are able to tweak unit production, this is the only way for the English to get Armored Sergeants in the campaign. Oh, and by the way, did you know that there is a hidden English unit??? Use the same syntax as above, but intsead of "Armored Sergeants" type in "Mounted Longbowmen". That's right. English Longbowmen on horseback. :beam:
Historic? Naw... Fun? You better believe it! Yeah... they rock.
Billmen are neither useless nor bugged, they just work differently. Use them against spears and swords and they will do fine. On the top of them they are dirt cheap. I understand that this might be counter-intuitive as billmen in MTW were one of the best anti-av units, thus players expect the same form MTW2 billmen. Well, it is not the same ~;) but it works ~:)
Billmen are neither useless nor bugged, they just work differently. Use them against spears and swords and they will do fine. On the top of them they are dirt cheap. I understand that this might be counter-intuitive as billmen in MTW were one of the best anti-av units, thus players expect the same form MTW2 billmen. Well, it is not the same ~;) but it works ~:)
Ahh... but have you even seen them in combat with cavalry? Go and load up a custom battle with them and Dismounted English Knights against any cavalry. I even dare you to fight Hobilars or some other superweak cavalry.
Trust me, if you don't charge the cavalry, they will slaughter you.
Why? Because neither Billmen nor the DEKs (heh) will ever attack the cavalrymen at all.
My recommendation would be to hire some Welsh Longbowmen and under their special formations they can place sharp wooden stakes in the ground. You can find a picture of what these look like on a google image search for medieval 2.
Trithemius
11-28-2006, 22:00
That's not the point though is it. Archers are there to fire arrows, not to fight cavalry. Wooden stakes are there to protect the archers, but the cavalry doesn't always charge into them.
What? Are you trying not to find a solution here Dayve?
While I admit that it does seem pretty odd that the English don't get any decent spears early on there does seem to be a solution here. If you field mostly archer forces, and have them put down stakes, and then wait for the enemy then their cavalry is probably going to try and charge them at some point.
Admittedly, this is not really that great when you are the attacker in a battle, but that might be the reason that the English adopted tactical defence while on the strategic offence. Perhaps try playing with your faction's army, rather than against it?
Ahh... but have you even seen them in combat with cavalry? Go and load up a custom battle with them and Dismounted English Knights against any cavalry. I even dare you to fight Hobilars or some other superweak cavalry.
Trust me, if you don't charge the cavalry, they will slaughter you.
Why? Because neither Billmen nor the DEKs (heh) will ever attack the cavalrymen at all.
I know that they do not work vs cavs. That is why I suggested to use them vs spears/swords, and that is why I wrote that it might be counter-intuitive. And, uhm, that is why I wrote that the system (RPS) works differently this time. ~;)
It might be disappointing that billmen cannot kill a bloody horsemen but they are not useless and more likely it is not a bug. It seems to be more of a different RPS system. You dont have to like it of course ...
And to stay on topic: militia spearmen can do wonders in great numbers ~;) One or two wont help much but 5 or 6 can beat enemy units just by shear numbers. Of course when the enemy has equal number of better quality troops then it wont help, but IMO stakes+mercenary spears should solve your problem in that case.
Lord Condormanius
11-28-2006, 22:14
the different variations of billmen suck - their defence values are ridiculous, no bonus against cavalry and they haven't even got a special formation.
They might as well be carrying a rake. I don't use them against cavalry because they dont have shields, hence the low defense rating.
I know that they do not work vs cavs. That is why I suggested to use them vs spears/swords, and that is why I wrote that it might be counter-intuitive. And, uhm, that is why I wrote that the system (RPS) works differently this time. ~;)
It might be disappointing that billmen cannot kill a bloody horsemen but they are not useless and more likely it is not a bug. It seems to be more of a different RPS system. You dont have to like it of course ...
There is a difference in not being anti-cav and not being able to kill cav at all.
Even archers can kill cav in melee. So obviously something IS wrong, and obviously it IS a bug. Especially considering this affects quite a few units (Varangians, DEKs, Dismounted Huscarles and other twohanded axemen).
If the Billmen could attack cavalry we would see a nice result even without any specific bonus, as they are AP and have a high attack. That would chop down heavy cav easily. So personally I'm far from niffed at the loss of a specific anti-cav bonus.
But they are without a doubt bugged.
Barry Fitzgerald
11-28-2006, 22:32
Well in MTW2 I am not blown away with Billmen. They seem weak all round.
If you look at what their role was in the english army it was a big one in this period. Similar to the halberd units.
It is a combination of a spear and axe pretty much...so it has a defensive and offensive value. The bill should do good damage to cavalry, and the spear is just that..an anti cavalry weapon...also the hook on the bill would find gaps in armour..so even heavily armoured units could suffer. Should also be decent in hand to hand..a 7/8 foot axe isnt something that you just brush off. I know this isnt a super realistic game..but the billmen were critical to the english army, as were longbows as well.
Whilst armour levels were low...that spear would kill horses no problems. This is reflected in historical victories of the english army in this time. They did well against both cavalry and infantry.
In MTW 1 the billmen were about right..they need some work big time.
I agree that the English need a decent spear option, and that billmen largely are worthless. Luckily, these unit issues should be easily fixed once the unit_desc file is available. I think that just adding the anti-cav stat to them would help out quite a bit, even with a weak defense.
Its too bad that no one bothered to mention to CA that we would like to mod this game before now...
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