Rockets Hit Isreial

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hey,




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15894040/


Here we go again :inquisitive: :idea2:

[Marshal Murat]

Is it real?
is-re-i-al, all I need is a t.
Try to to spell correctly.

Anyway, I hope that Israel doesn't blow this ceasefire by invading anything again.

[Proletariat]

I hope Israel gets a bunch of rockets shot at it during this ceasefire and takes the high ground by not making a big deal out of it or anything.

All Israel needs is this emote for their neighbors :no:

[Productivity]

Neither side is exactly innocent...

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-11-27T083558Z_01_L23458912_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&WTmodLoc=IntNewsHome_C1_%5bFeed%5d-2

Sad, sad region that one. If one can get beyond the blame and start acting with humanity there's hope. I'm not optimistic.

[Fragony]

God aren't they absolutily hopeless. Their desire for peace just isn't as strong as their need to kill. Give them their state and let them slaughter eachother, they like it too much so they will probably turn on eachother.

[yesdachi]

The Palestinians/Hamas need to stop firing rockets into Israel, problem solved.


…violence in Gaza that has killed 300 Palestinians, scores of them civilians, and five Israelis.
Look at that kill ratio, those rockets are doing a great job… of pissing off Israel. Does firing rockets at Israel do any good? Am I missing something here? What is the point in perpetuating a fight with a country they can never beat? Go tend your fields so that maybe you don’t have to be completely dependant on other countries.

[CrossLOPER]

The Palestinians/Hamas need to stop firing rockets into Israel, problem solved.


Look at that kill ratio, those rockets are doing a great job… of pissing off Israel. Does firing rockets at Israel do any good? Am I missing something here? What is the point in perpetuating a fight with a country they can never beat? Go tend your fields so that maybe you don’t have to be completely dependant on other countries.
Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

[Proletariat]

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered wide-ranging concessions if the Palestinians turn away from violence, saying Monday that they would be able to achieve an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza through real peace talks with Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/27/israel.olmert.ap/index.html

These Israeli's just don't understand what a 'proportionate response' is, yet again

:laugh4:

[Fragony]

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

[Kralizec]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

These Israeli's just don't understand what a 'proportionate response' is, yet again

...am I missing something? It sounds reasonable to me. Stop blowing us up, and we'll get you your own state

[Redleg]

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.

[CrossLOPER]

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.
I was referring to both sides, but I will not say I disagree with you.


The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.
I am so not going to bother arguing any part of this, favorably or otherwise.

[Ronin]

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

agreed.....and to add to that I might say that having visited the area personally that there isn´t anything there nice enought to fight over...at least in my opinion...

[Pannonian]

agreed.....and to add to that I might say that having visited the area personally that there isn´t anything there nice enought to fight over...at least in my opinion...
Quote from a British soldier serving in Palestine at the height of the Jewish-Arab rebellion that eventually resulted in us being kicked out of there.

"They say this is the land of milk and honey. As far as I can see it's 12 men to a tin and no bloody bees."

[Dâriûsh]

Perhaps Israel has been too effective in killing all the middle men in the Hamas, so the body now attacks without the head.


Or perhaps it is an attempt by IJ and Fatah to undermine Haniyeh.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hey,

um no. How about, Hamas and them stops provkoing Israel into attacking their neighbors and ploblem is settled.

[Redleg]

Or perhaps it is an attempt by IJ and Fatah to undermine Haniyeh.

This was my thought. Time will tell if it was an attempt at undermining or just a failure to get the information out and coordination of halting of all attacks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hypothetical:

Let us assume that Israel and the Palestinian Authority agree to a two state solution by ceding control of all territory South of the 32nd parallel. A separate contiguous Palestine is then established below that parallel. A regional commission chaired by Cyprus is then set up to adjudicate water rights among Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan.

Would this bring peace?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I doubt it unless you can Shut down Hamas and control the Palestinian Militatis..

[Productivity]

At this stage neither side can claim the moral high ground - both are deep in this mess and both are about as blameworthy as each other. For there to be peace there has to be a viable two state solution - given they are never going to agree and only one party has the ability to unilaterally institute that, it is what I would think Israel should do.

It's all well and good to say stop firing rockets into Israel and I agree they should be stopped, but this is not a one variable system. You've got a large group of people who feel robbed of a state (and all the associated trappings), a hope and a life - it doesn't surprise me that some of them react violently, nor that said violent cause gets popular support.

[JimBob]

Seamus,
No, because:
1) Jerusalem is south of the 32nd, thereby giving it to Palestine. Very few Israelis would except that.
2) The good farmland is in the north west of the country. The south is Gaza and the Negev Desert
3) One of the few useful pieces of land in the south is Eliat, which the Israelis are unlikely to giveup because it is useful, one of their larger cities, and there only port on the Red Sea
4) Tel-Aviv is right on that line. They have already hypothetically given up Jerusalem, they will not give their most important city or put it in danger.
5) Water. Access is in the north west. Our little Palestinian state would have to rely on trade and treating salt water.
6) The migration would be terrible. Isrealis from Eliat going north. A good half of the West Bank including Nablus going south. That would be a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen.

There really is not room for a completely independant two state solution.

[AntiochusIII]

um no. How about, Israel and them stops provkoing Palestinians into attacking their neighbors and ploblem is settled.
...it goes either way.

I'm not even sure Hamas is responsible for this attack, or, if it's really Hamas, who is shooting all the rockets. There are a lot of competing groups out there in the mess that is the Middle East; Fatah, for example, while still reeling from their electoral defeat, still exists and I suspect despise Hamas to the core.

I mean, despite most people somehow getting the idea that Hamas is some well-organized force with a superstructure and a clear command line like the IDF, it's actually very fragmented, with a lot of infighting and radicals acting on their own initiatives -- the military wing's more militant position compare to the relatively newer political wing that actually have to run the mess (in general terms) once they've won that election is quite well known. Israel could even be partially blamed for decimating the Hamas heads whom they could've allowed to live and be able to actually negotiate with in any effective fashion. That they have to deal with a completely fragmented and naturally unpredictable partner-in-hell is quite unfortunate, but what is there, is there.

This "Hamas is to blame for everything" smells of scapegoating it too much. Pointing fingers do not change a complex political mess of this caliber. The rocket-firing episode here in defiance of the ceasefire is just another episode in a long-running series of unfortunate events.

[Incongruous]

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Really? I thought it was really the massive American Backing Isreal received. The Fact that Britain double-crossed the Arabs in one of our nations most shameful acts. I also thought it was to do with the fact that Isreal uses state terrorism and elects genocidal maniacs into power. If Isreal is based upon a kingdom that existed over a thousand years ago, I see no reason why the wrong doing of the zionists should be so lightly waved aside.

The only way I can see Isreal ever being accepted is if they accept the wrong was originally theirs (many other peoples have accepted this why should Isreal be so different? American dollars?). And to allow the UN to sort this mess, out. Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

[AntiochusIII]

Basically to go back to their Un Borders.Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

[Incongruous]

Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

Not to sound like preening little prat, but Isrealis already undertake mass violence and terrorism.

At the moment any land concessions would leave Palastinians with the short end of the stick.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, as noted above, there is no combination of "lines on a map" that all parties will find bearable.

As a water-consuming entity, attempts to subdivide the region are impractical, since the key watersheds all run from one nexus.

Neither side, for religious/cultural reasons, is comfortable ceding control of Jerusalem.

All of the relevant population sub-groups are tangled together in a fashion remeniscent of the central Balkans.

Both larger "sides" are subdivided to a fare-thee-well, and cannot for political reasons entirely squelch the extremist elements within their groupings. Moreover, control over these groups -- particularly on the Islamic side -- is tenuous at best.

No sense of common culture/background is perceived by the parties to the conflict. No "IRA gives up the armed struggle" is in the offing. Far too many of the local participants have too much of their power invested in "warlord" status. Such leaders require a physical threat to "oppose."


...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.


It will take generations, but eventually one side or the other will have:

a) successfully extirpated the other.

or

b) both will have bled each other white long enough to actually embrace non-violent means of coexistence.



Palestine is not, for reasons of water and topography and overall land area, divisible in any practical sense. Those living there must learn to coexist as one political entity or accept an ongoing existence of costant conflict and warlordism as their norm of existence.


Those of us outside Palestine really can't do **** over shinola to change that last point.

[yesdachi]

Let them fight.
IMO that is the blocking issue, the “world” won’t let them fight, the minute they start openly fighting the media and all the loud mouths around the world start crying for an end of the fighting. I say let them fight, we know what the outcome will be, why keep prolonging the inevitable.

[Banquo's Ghost]

...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution. :juggle2:

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

[yesdachi]

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?
I think that would be the perfect reason for the side not backed by a superpower to stop firing rockets at the other.



Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?
Might motivate them to act more swiftly to eliminate the thorns in their sides.

[Pannonian]

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution. :juggle2:

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?
I imagine they'd turn to Russia or China instead, as they've done in the past. Far moreso than the Arabs, the Israelis have been skilful at playing off one superpower against another to obtain the best deal for themselves. Though there's little evidence that any of the current lot are anywhere near as adept at Macchiavelli as the masters of yore, probably a result of political flabbiness caused by a long period of guaranteed US support.

Personally, I favour the "seal them off and let them kill each to their hearts' content" solution. Neither Israel nor Palestine has anything intrinsically of value to the EU, so we might as well minimise our own contact with the conflict. If we want access to the east Mediterranean shores, we could always patronise Lebanon, which has a firmer European cultural foundation.

[Redleg]

Really? I thought it was really the massive American Backing Isreal received.

Rather amusing.....



The Fact that Britain double-crossed the Arabs in one of our nations most shameful acts.

Power politics at its finest.



I also thought it was to do with the fact that Isreal uses state terrorism and elects genocidal maniacs into power. If Isreal is based upon a kingdom that existed over a thousand years ago, I see no reason why the wrong doing of the zionists should be so lightly waved aside.

Valid point concerning Israel - but it does not negate the fact that Hammas does not want to accept Israel as a state. I don't wave the zionists actions aside, and neither do I accept the arguement that the Palenstine terror groups are blameless....



The only way I can see Isreal ever being accepted is if they accept the wrong was originally theirs (many other peoples have accepted this why should Isreal be so different? American dollars?). And to allow the UN to sort this mess, out. Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

Which is the current deal being worked out. Time will tell if the Palenstine people want to live in peace with their own state, or not.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

How is Isreal using Terroism? I like to know, why are people going ahead and blaming them for everything, and letting Hamas and the Palenstine go..

[Incongruous]

Rather amusing.

Really, I find it quite sickening actually.

[Dâriûsh]

How is Isreal using Terroism? I like to know, why are people going ahead and blaming them for everything, and letting Hamas and the Palenstine go.. Indeed. Who would label IDF house demolitions across Palestine as terrorism? :juggle2:

[Goofball]

Indeed. Who would label IDF house demolitions across Palestine as terrorism? :juggle2:

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

To which many would counter that:

absent a proper legal hearing, no valid determination of the terrorist status of the individuals in question has been made, hence an attack on their property would itself be an act of criminal violence (and possibly of terrorism).

It's a classic twist of the non-war war they're fighting over there.

[Incongruous]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

Oh yes, that's perfectly fine I suppose.
Tell me have you ever heard of a book called Freedom Next Time by John Pilger?
I advise you to read it.

[Dâriûsh]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

Tell that to the little old lady who was forced out of her home at three in the morning, only to have an armoured bulldozer demolish her home because her son was a suspected Hamas affiliate.

I would label that as terrorism.

[yesdachi]

Tell that to the little old lady who was forced out of her home at three in the morning, only to have an armoured bulldozer demolish her home because her son was a suspected Hamas affiliate.

I would label that as terrorism.
I would tell that little old lady to openly oppose the idiots firing rockets at Israel.

[Dâriûsh]

I would tell that little old lady to openly oppose the idiots firing rockets at Israel.

Okay, you go tell her that.

I sure hope no one ever bulldozes your home.

[Goofball]

Okay, you go tell her that.

I sure hope no one ever bulldozes your home.

And I sure hope nobody ever blows you up with a rocket while you are driving to work.

See? Works both ways.

If Hamas had gunships and tanks, I guarantee you they would not be as restrained as the Israelis have been in the face of constant, deliberate attacks on their civilian population.

When rockets are fired into Israel by Arabs, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a Jew.

The Israelis, at least, are trying to identify the sources of threats and act specifically against those threats.

Unfortunately, the general Palestinian population tends to support, hide, and provide aid and comfort to the terrorists, so quite often "innocent" (and I put the word in quotations purposely) Palestinians lose lives and property, even in targeted strikes.

[Dâriûsh]

And I sure hope nobody ever blows you up with a rocket while you are driving to work.

See? Works both ways.
I disagree. But it would indeed work both ways had I said something akin to “Blowing up Israeli homes with Qassam rockets isn’t terrorism.”


If Hamas had gunships and tanks, I guarantee you they would not be as restrained as the Israelis have been in the face of constant, deliberate attacks on their civilian population.
Yes. The armed wing of the Hamas is a bunch of terrorists. Who would dispute this other than the Hamas and their ilk?


When rockets are fired into Israel by Arabs, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a Jew.

The Israelis, at least, are trying to identify the sources of threats and act specifically against those threats.

Unfortunately, the general Palestinian population tends to support, hide, and provide aid and comfort to the terrorists, so quite often "innocent" (and I put the word in quotations purposely) Palestinians lose lives and property, even in targeted strikes. When rockets are fired into Palestine by Israelis, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a terrorist.

And innocent in quotations, is it? You’re a “nice” person.

I think the general Palestinian population believes itself to be warred upon by Israel, with good cause. They cling on to the Hamas, IJ, and other armed groups out of spite. You see, the Holy Land™ is wrecked by a mindset of retaliation followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, ad infinitum. And that is not just a Palestinian invention.

[Goofball]

When rockets are fired into Israel by Arabs, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a Jew.

The Israelis, at least, are trying to identify the sources of threats and act specifically against those threats.When rockets are fired into Palestine by Israelis, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a terrorist.

Not true. The Israelis don't just blindly fire in the general direction of Palestine and hope that they kill somebody. They are taking specific aim at targets that they believe represent a real threat to their security.

The Arabs, on the other hand, are just blindly firing rockets in the general direction of Israel, hoping that they will kill a Jew or three, whether or not those particular Jews happen to represent a specific threat to them.

You seem to be ignoring that very important difference.



Unfortunately, the general Palestinian population tends to support, hide, and provide aid and comfort to the terrorists, so quite often "innocent" (and I put the word in quotations purposely) Palestinians lose lives and property, even in targeted strikes.And innocent in quotations, is it? You’re a “nice” person.

Take a step back and breath deeply, honourable Dâriûsh. I think that that's about the closest I have ever seen you come to ad hominem.

I put the word "innocent" in quotations because I believe that ever since the Palestinians elected a known terrorist organization with genocide as its stated goal as their legitimate government, they have lost any moral high-ground that they might ever have been able to cling to.


I think the general Palestinian population believes itself to be warred upon by Israel, with good cause. They cling on to the Hamas, IJ, and other armed groups out of spite. You see, the Holy Land™ is wrecked by a mindset of retaliation followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, ad infinitum. And that is not just a Palestinian invention.

Nothing incorrect in that statement.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Tell that to the little old lady who was forced out of her home at three in the morning, only to have an armoured bulldozer demolish her home because her son was a suspected Hamas affiliate.

I would label that as terrorism.



I would label that the defense of your nation and taking out the shetelrs for these wackos and grapenuts

[JimBob]

I would label that the defense of your nation and taking out the shetelrs for these wackos and grapenuts
Warman, read the quote. The mother of a suspected Hamas member had her house bulldozed. That's like your mom getting her house smashed cause you are a suspect for murder. Not exactly necessary.


When rockets are fired into Israel by Arabs, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a Jew.
Not true. I've had this explained to me. The mindset in Palestine is that Israelis are 'civilians' because everyone is required to do military service, thus everyone will end up or has ended up in the IDF, who go about bombing in Palestine.

On the subject of the Israeli tactics, a prime example being in Gaza. Before the Lebanon fiasco Israel was engaged in combat in Gaza because an IDF soldier had been taken captive. One of Israel's first targets was the Gaza power plant.

[Goofball]

Warman, read the quote. The mother of a suspected Hamas member had her house bulldozed. That's like your mom getting her house smashed cause you are a suspect for murder. Not exactly necessary.

But if your mother was allowing you to use her house as a staging area for your murders, then her house is fair game.



When rockets are fired into Israel by Arabs, the thinking is that anybody they kill will be a valid target, because that person killed will have been a Jew.Not true. I've had this explained to me. The mindset in Palestine is that Israelis are 'civilians' because everyone is required to do military service, thus everyone will end up or has ended up in the IDF, who go about bombing in Palestine.

That kind of logic is just an excuse for genocide. "Because this two year-old child is Israeli, I am justified in murdering her, because she will be a soldier in 16 years."

At any rate, what you just said proves my point. Palestinians are firing rockets indiscriminately at Israelis, because in their eyes, the only good Jew is a dead Jew.


On the subject of the Israeli tactics, a prime example being in Gaza. Before the Lebanon fiasco Israel was engaged in combat in Gaza because an IDF soldier had been taken captive. One of Israel's first targets was the Gaza power plant.

Infrastructure that helps support an enemy's war effort against you is a legitimate target.

[Pannonian]

But if your mother was allowing you to use her house as a staging area for your murders, then her house is fair game.

That kind of logic is just an excuse for genocide. "Because this two year-old child is Israeli, I am justified in murdering her, because she will be a soldier in 16 years."

At any rate, what you just said proves my point. Palestinians are firing rockets indiscriminately at Israelis, because in their eyes, the only good Jew is a dead Jew.
Have you heard of the programmes of shelling any areas that have ever had rockets fired from them, or are considered suitable for such? Notwithstanding the fact that the rockets the Palestinians use are eminently movable, and everyone knows the culprits have long since gone by the time the shelling starts, the IDF carries out a programme of lobbing in shells every hour or so. Bad luck for the residents in the area. A valid tactic, to terrorise the enemy population into not supporting the militants. But let's not pretend it's anything other than terrorism.



Infrastructure that helps support an enemy's war effort against you is a legitimate target.
The same complaint that was made about the Lebanese tussle - proportionality of response. If the enemy is threatening your state, severe measures should be taken, up to and including destroying enemy infrastructure supporting their war effort. If the enemy is only up to capturing (not kidnapping, the two sides are at war) the odd soldier and firing off the odd badly designed rocket, bombing something that is overwhelmingly civilian in purpose seems OTT. Use such drastically oversized measures, and it doesn't matter if you win or lose, you lose either way.

[Incongruous]

Not true. The Israelis don't just blindly fire in the general direction of Palestine and hope that they kill somebody. They are taking specific aim at targets that they believe represent a real threat to their security.

The Arabs, on the other hand, are just blindly firing rockets in the general direction of Israel, hoping that they will kill a Jew or three, whether or not those particular Jews happen to represent a specific threat to them.

You seem to be ignoring that very important difference.

Take a step back and breath deeply, honourable Dâriûsh. I think that that's about the closest I have ever seen you come to ad hominem.

I put the word "innocent" in quotations because I believe that ever since the Palestinians elected a known terrorist organization with genocide as its stated goal as their legitimate government, they have lost any moral high-ground that they might ever have been able to cling to.


Nothing incorrect in that statement.

Lets get some fact into the conversation here.
You denounce Palestinians for electing to power men who say they would commit genocide. Isrealis have leected men into power who have commited genocide. Ever heard of Ariel sharrons little dealing with the Phalangists in Lebbenon? I'd advise you to make backround checks before making satments like that.

In 1982 Begin launched a bloody attack on Lebanon, which resulted in the deaths of over eighteen thousand people mostly Plastinian refugees. O the assualt on civilians including the continuous bombing of Beirut and the saturation bombing of all major Plestinian refugee cams in southern Lebanon, Begin said, " Not for one moment would I have any doubt that the civilian population deserves punshment". He describedthe Palestinians as two legged beasts. As for the massacare in the Sabra and Chatila camps in Beirut, for which the Isrealis were held responsible, Begin dismissed this Shame as the anti-semetism of "goyim", a pejorative term for gentiles.

In 1953, Sharon commanded Unit 101 of the Isreali army, whose 'mission' it was to carry out 'special reprisals across the state's borders. On the night of October 14, Sharon laid siege to the village of Qibya. His orders From general command were to 'attack the village and temporarily hold and occupy it, carry out destruction and maximum killing, in order to drive out the inhabitants of the village from their homes.' He passed this on to his men with these words "Objective to attack the village of Kibiya [sic], occupy it and cause maximal damage to life and property, signed Major Ariel Sharon."

In June1982, General Sharon, now defence minister, ordered the invsion of Lebanon to destroy "the terrorist infastructure" of the PLO, which was based in Beirut. This was a terrible, murderous episode. Laying siege to Muslim west Beirut, the Isrealis cut off water, eletricity and food supplies and bombed the city, using phosphorus shells and American-supplied cluster bombs in the warren of streets, During the first two weeks, an estimated fourteen thousand Palestinians and Lebanese were killed and twenty thousand wounded, the vast majority of these civilians. According to UNICEF, ten children were killed for every Palastinian fighter. By Septemer, The PLO had decided to evacuate Beirut and, overseen by international forces, thousands of Palastinians baorded ships that would take them to other Arab countries, while their women and children remained behind. With the evacuation complete Sharone claimed "2000" terrorists" remained in the refugee camps; offering no eveidence, he oredered the "encircling and sealing" of Sabra and Chatila camps. On September 16, he allowed the Phalngists who were fascists trained. armed and paid by Isreal and with a history of britality and hatred of Palestinian, into these two camps. They systematically murdered the lederly, women and childre.

The massacare took just under forty hours. The Phalangists were in constant communication with the Isrealis, who could see into the camps and fired flares to light the way for their clients'.

The UN called the massacares "an act of genocide". The Isreali Commision of Inquiry, could offer no evidence that a single terrorist was present in the camps.

The plain, shocking truth.

[JimBob]

But if your mother was allowing you to use her house as a staging area for your murders, then her house is fair game.
If, and if your mother were giving you money for your effort the same would be true. But that is not in the scenario Dâriûsh presented was it?


At any rate, what you just said proves my point. Palestinians are firing rockets indiscriminately at Israelis, because in their eyes, the only good Jew is a dead Jew.
Not necessarily, they want to break the will of the Israelis. Genocide is not the priority for most of them. Some, yes. But then I know a number of Israelis who think the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian.


Infrastructure that helps support an enemy's war effort against you is a legitimate target.
They use Ak-47s, homemade bombs, and cheap dumb rockets. They don't need power plants to fight (and they didn't, the militias in the area prevented deep Israeli penetration during the fighting.)


Or lets take the Israeli settlers who burn and damage agricultural land of Palestinian farmers.
Attacks by Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories

Israeli settlers in the West Bank repeatedly attacked Palestinians and their property. They destroyed crops, cut down or burned olive trees, contaminated water reservoirs and prevented farmers from cultivating their land, in order to force them to leave. Such attacks increased during the olive harvest months of October and November.

* In March and April, Israeli settlers spread toxic chemicals in fields around Palestinian villages in the southern Hebron Hills and near Salfit. The chemicals were spread in areas where Palestinian farmers graze their sheep, effectively depriving them of their livelihood. The farmers were forced to quarantine their flocks and stop using the milk, cheese and meat during the productive season.
* On 16 October some 75 acres of olive groves belonging to Palestinian villagers near Salem in the northern West Bank were burned by Israeli settlers. Much of the villagers’ land was cut off from the village by a settlers’ road leading to the nearby Elon Moreh settlement. For years, Israeli settlers from Elon Moreh had prevented Palestinian villagers from accessing their land under threat of attacks.
Israeli settlers also attacked Israeli and international peace activists and human rights defenders who sought to document their attacks on Palestinians.
* On 26 September settlers from the Havat Ma’on settlement outpost assaulted Israeli peace activists and a film crew. Ra’anan Alexanderovitch was severely beaten and injured by a settler armed with an M16 assault rifle, and some of the crew’s equipment was stolen by the attackers.

Israeli soldiers and police at times intervened to stop settlers attacking Palestinians, often when Israeli or international peace activists were present. However, in most cases they failed to intervene and often responded to settlers’ attacks by imposing further restrictions on the local Palestinian population, as demanded by the settlers.

The destruction of homes is not always in the interest of removing terrorist's infrastructure.
Destruction of homes and properties

Although far less extensive than in previous years, destruction of Palestinian homes and land by Israeli forces continued. Large areas of agricultural land were seized and destroyed, and thousands of trees uprooted, to make way for the fence/wall and for settlers’ roads through the West Bank. Israeli settlers also destroyed Palestinian farmland in order to open new roads to connect recently established settlement outposts. Even though these outposts contravened government policy, the army rarely intervened to prevent such actions.

Scores of Palestinian homes were demolished by the Israeli army and security forces in the West Bank, including in and around East Jerusalem, on the grounds that they were built without a building permit. The Israeli authorities denied permission to Palestinians to build on their own land in large areas of the West Bank, and at the same time continued to approve the construction and expansion of illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.

* On 5 April the Israeli army destroyed the Zaatreh family home in the East Jerusalem suburb of ‘Azariya to make way for the fence/wall, which was built on the ruins of the house. The demolition left 29 members of the family homeless, including 16 children. Although the land belongs to the family, they could not obtain a building permit so their house was demolished.
* During the week beginning 4 July the Israeli army demolished some 35 stone and metal structures/shacks in the village of Tana, near Nablus, in the northern West Bank. Fourteen of the structures were home to the villagers and the rest were used to store fodder or shelter sheep and goats, which provide the main source of livelihood for the village. A school, which had been built in 2001 and had served the village’s children since then, was also demolished, along with two water reservoirs. The army took advantage of the absence of the villagers, who live a semi-nomadic life and spend the hottest months of July and August in nearby Beit Furik, to destroy much of their habitat. The reason given for the destruction was that the structures had been built without a permit.

Or the Israeli version of 'free-fire zones'
In November an Israeli army company commander was acquitted of all charges in relation to the killing of a 13-year-old girl, Iman al-Hams. She had been shot dead by Israeli soldiers in October 2004 in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip while walking near a fortified Israeli army tower opposite her school. According to an army communication recording of the incident, the commander had stated that “anything that’s mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it’s a three-year-old, needs to be killed”. Neither the commander nor any other soldier was charged with the girl’s murder as the court accepted that the commander had not breached regulations on when to open fire. The court focused on whether he had acted improperly by repeatedly shooting at the child as she lay injured or dead.

Do you not see the pattern of violence and coercion? Is this not terrorism?

Source: Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/isr-summary-eng)

[Adrian II]

The plain, shocking truth.Yes, it is. Except for the term genocide, which was adopted by the General Assembly but not by the Security Council. Israel has committed war crimes more than once, including during the invasion of Lebanon, and the relevant 1982 SC Resolution (521) condemns 'the massacre of Palestinian civilians in Beirut', a phrase that comes perilously close to the definition of war crime.

The real issue is: what do we do if all sides in a war or civil conflict intentionally commit atrocities? Do we condemn only one party and not the other(s)? And is such condemnation conducive to a peaceful arrangement that prevents further atrocities - an arrangement that ideally should have a higher priority than the establishment of past crimes?

[Incongruous]

No I was merley correcting Goofball's comments.
Yes I also believe that Isreal is the part who need to give the most. They constantly us state terrorism, and have a seemingly unquestioned support of the West.
The Palestinians have nothing.
As far as I can see, if Isreal's actions are not considered terrorism then niether can those of Hamas and IJ.

[Pannonian]

The real issue is: what do we do if all sides in a war or civil conflict intentionally commit atrocities? Do we condemn only one party and not the other(s)? And is such condemnation conducive to a peaceful arrangement that prevents further atrocities - an arrangement that ideally should have a higher priority than the establishment of past crimes?

Seal them off from the outside world and let them kill each other as much as they want. What is there in Israel and Palestine that is of interest to us anyway? Why does it matter to us if they can't stand each others' company, as long as they don't take their dispute outside their combined borders?

[Adrian II]

No I was merely correcting Goofball's comments.I understand.

But I feel we should skip the 'bulldozer versus rocket' equation and aim for the larger picture. I deplore the fact that modern sensitivity demands instant gratification, including instant justice for every perceived wrong at every bloody twist in world events: Darfur, Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq.

We cry genocide and demand: do something!

As if 'doing something' in world politics were somehow the global equivalent of filing a lawsuit for negligence against the local deli in Stuebenville, Ohio, or against the neighbourhood council of De Baarsjes, Amsterdam, for breach of contract.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Warman, read the quote. The mother of a suspected Hamas member had her house bulldozed. That's like your mom getting her house smashed cause you are a suspect for murder. Not exactly necessary.


Not true. I've had this explained to me. The mindset in Palestine is that Israelis are 'civilians' because everyone is required to do military service, thus everyone will end up or has ended up in the IDF, who go about bombing in Palestine.

On the subject of the Israeli tactics, a prime example being in Gaza. Before the Lebanon fiasco Israel was engaged in combat in Gaza because an IDF soldier had been taken captive. One of Israel's first targets was the Gaza power plant.



No, time for you to use your "reading skills", if you have any, and reread my post, but read the comment by a fellow .orgah member

"But if your mother was allowing you to use her house as a staging area for your murders, then her house is fair game."


Well?


and no Jimmybobby, Israelis are only defending themselves. Some people just can't get the idea sadly :inquisitive:

[Incongruous]

I understand.

But I feel we should skip the 'bulldozer versus rocket' equation and aim for the larger picture. I deplore the fact that modern sensitivity demands instant gratification, including instant justice for every perceived wrong at every bloody twist in world events: Darfur, Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq.

We cry genocide and demand: do something!

As if 'doing something' in world politics were somehow the global equivalent of filing a lawsuit for negligence against the local deli in Stuebenville, Ohio, or against the neighbourhood council of De Baarsjes, Amsterdam, for breach of contract.

I don't think this can be a case of "looking at the global picture"
I think what we can make it a case of is continued Isreali and Western incompotence in the area. It seems that because of Isreal's bombings recently that Lebanons government will suffer. Isreal is, knowingly creating more strife in the region. It seems that they must, they need to destabilise the region, for what reason? I have no idea, but I believe such a query is valid. I also believe that the USA has to stop its blind support for one of the biggest bullies in the world. It is slighty irrelevant but alot of people I know here in NZ view Isreal as ab evil country. I don\t agree because a country can never be evil. There are people in Isreal (families of suicide bombing victim) who really want Isreal to stop it's state terrorism. Yet they are scorned by the general populace. Yes I am pro-pelestinian, but I am also pro-peace. But at the moment I believe Isreal is the one who has to give more. This wall they have built has split families, fathers from sons and brithers from sisters. They know, they must without any doubt that this will create more desperation (imagine living in a disease infested refugee camp you're entire life, while you're grandfather tells you of you're families old far, just a few miles that way) more bombings.

Jerusaleam is also a problem, I don't think Isreal should have it, it should be an international city.

The west always seems to cry "murder!" yet we soon get bored of the same people dying and nothing happens. Not enough money in it for governments I suppose. The UN deosn't have a leg to stand on, because it's members (I am pointing a big finger at the US government) constantly destroy what integrity it could have.

As I said I believe it's time the west pulled in the reigns upon Isreal and tell them to have a look at how Britain dealt with the IRA.
They're are the ones with an infastructure, they should lead the way.

[Adrian II]

As I said I believe it's time the west pulled in the reigns upon Isreal and tell them to have a look at how Britain dealt with the IRA. They're are the ones with an infastructure, they should lead the way.Agreed. Everyone can come up with issues that might complicate such a scenario and we all know that it won't be easy yadda yadda, but this should be the basic thrust of a forward-looking strategy.

[Pannonian]

As I said I believe it's time the west pulled in the reigns upon Isreal and tell them to have a look at how Britain dealt with the IRA.
They're are the ones with an infastructure, they should lead the way.
In the past, I've pointed to similarities between the situations in Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine, and have always been told it was completely different and not at all comparable. Even when I pointed to extremely similar developments, and that various Palestinian factions have asked the IRA for advice as recently as this year, I was still told, it's completely different and not at all comparable.

Well, Britain managed to solve its problem in Northern Ireland, and that's all that matters to me. If the Israelis (not the Palestinians, they've been willing to listen to outsiders) want to go about it their own way and prolong the troubles for another 50 years, that's their own business. I only wish my own government will stop thinking it can do good by stepping in. As I've said before, cut off all contact with Israel and Palestine, and let them fight it out for as long as they want. Why should it matter to us if Israelis and Palestinians decide to kill each other, as long as they keep their dispute to themselves?

[Watchman]

Because that little festering case is around the single biggest motivator for any and all militant wonks the Muslim world might spawn ? Spin-offs thus far include avid anti-Semitism (or is that -Jewism, I thought Arabs were a Semitic people too?) among Muslims in general and Arabs in particular and such pleasant gems as aircraft hijacking...

[Pannonian]

Because that little festering case is around the single biggest motivator for any and all militant wonks the Muslim world might spawn ? Spin-offs thus far include avid anti-Semitism (or is that -Jewism, I thought Arabs were a Semitic people too?) among Muslims in general and Arabs in particular and such pleasant gems as aircraft hijacking...
So let us Europeans keep out of it, and make it clear that we will respond with force if they get us involved, but we won't intervene as long as they keep their attentions to Israel. If anyone, Jews or Muslims, want to travel there to join in the fun, let them, but bar them from ever coming back to the EU. I'm of a mind to do the same with Pakistan as well, the training ground of choice for Islamist fundamentalists.

[JimBob]

No, time for you to use your "reading skills", if you have any, and reread my post, but read the comment by a fellow .orgah member

"But if your mother was allowing you to use her house as a staging area for your murders, then her house is fair game."

When in doubt attack my ability to read. Fair enough.

There is a post by Dâriûsh that started the lady and her son topic. You quoted that post by him and said "that is defending yourself from wackos" or their mothers.



Tell that to the little old lady who was forced out of her home at three in the morning, only to have an armoured bulldozer demolish her home because her son was a suspected Hamas affiliate.

I would label that as terrorism.

I would label that the defense of your nation and taking out the shetelrs for these wackos and grapenuts

Goof brought up the using the house to shelter terrorists. It was never part of the original scenario and has no bearing on it. The scenario was about a suspected Hamas member (possibly Hamas, no proof) whose mother (not a member of Hamas, not evidence she had any knowledge of her son's involvment) had her house bulldozed by Israel. Where does this stop terrorists?



and no Jimmybobby, Israelis are only defending themselves. Some people just can't get the idea sadly
And the Palestinians are just making violence because it's fun? Besides, read my last post, there are some choice bits in there that go beyond self-defense. Like tearing a house down because they want the wall in one place rather than 100 feet to the left. Or burning the crops of Palestinian farmers. Or how about expanding the West Bank Settlements? Yeah the Gaza pullout was BS if you haven't noticed yet :furious3:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hmmm, if you been doing something Call

Watch the News :inquisitive:

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow.

[JimBob]

Hmmm, if you been doing something Call

Watch the News

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow.

The news? They go for the sensational stuff, suicide bombers and rocket attacks. Army shelling houses and such is dull.

Amnesty International reports


Some 190 Palestinians, including around 50 children, were killed by the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories.


Palestinian armed groups killed 41 Israeli civilians, including six children, in suicide bombings, shootings and mortar attacks in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

A report on the subject
Off the Charts (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/nyt-report.html)

B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp)

The conclusion is that both sides kill, maim and commit horrible deeds to one another. Neither side is guilty, neither side is innocent, both sides suffer. No let us try to help fix this problem.

[Tribesman]

Hmmm, if you been doing something Call

Watch the News

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow.

Hmmmmmmm.....someone hasn't been looking have they .
Unless of course you see that 1000s more acts of violence than the Palestinians can miraculously become less acts of violence than the Palestinians ...... but I think that requires magic glasses to be able to see it like that .

Though to be fair perhaps Warman is including the war on the Northern front to reach his 100+ number , but that makes it even worse since it would also add many more thousand acts of violence in excess of the opposing sides many acts .

[Pannonian]

Hmmm, if you been doing something Call

Watch the News :inquisitive:

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow.
I don't think even the Israeli government has the gall to claim that the Palestinians commit more vilence on Israelis than Israelis do on Palestinians - the prize belongs to you alone. Where do you get your body counts from?

[Scurvy]

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow.

I suspect the numbers are roughly the same (but i really don't know) - think no figure can really be belived, because statisitcs can be manipulated by anyone to prove anything, im sure Israel "supporters" could find links to show that more israeli's die then palestinians, but palestinian supporters could find just as many showing the opposite.

- the amount of deaths can never justify retaliation, so in effect i think both sides are in the wrong. - i would claim because israel has full control over its state, and also is the more advanced of the two countries, then it should set the example and stop retaliating (or retaliate properly - killing civilians just antagonises everything, if they hit viable targets then fine) however this is naturally difficult - israely public opinion is very much pro violence (and so is the palestinian).

[Watchman]

The ratio of dead Palestinians to dead Israelis is around ten to one or worse, thankyouverymuch. While the Israeli authorities notoriously have no compunctions about lying through their teeth (about, say, their nukes) or flatly clamming up and refusing to comment at all (*cough*Khiam*cough*) when it suits them, they don't even try to deny that. Attempting it would be fighting windmills anyway as well as quite pointless, given how many NGOs and international organizations do the counting besides the Palestinians.

When the one side uses homebuilt suicide bombs and the other full-blown military heavy weaponry in inhabited urban areas, the results could not really be much different. Especially given the IDF's rather cavalier attitude about collateral damage.

[Dâriûsh]

I broke my own first rule of posting in a Middle East thread: Don’t lose your temper. Goofball, I apologize for that.




I put the word "innocent" in quotations because I believe that ever since the Palestinians elected a known terrorist organization with genocide as its stated goal as their legitimate government, they have lost any moral high-ground that they might ever have been able to cling to.

What were their options? I predicted a Hamas victory long ago, mainly due to the enormous effort they put into their campaigning. Other factors include the destruction of the PA infrastructure by the IDF and the corruption and ineptitude of the Fatah (Under Fatah, if you needed a decent municipal job, it always helped to have an uncle, cousin, or other relative, somewhere in the system). And even though they won, the Hamas’ popular vote wasn’t overwhelming in the legislative election earlier this year. Still, does that make all Palestinians fair game?


Hmmm, if you been doing something Call

Watch the News :inquisitive:

then you would see Hamas and the Palestinians are doing more Violence towards Isreail then Isreail towards them. Now if you don't see that, that's fine. Just ask the 100+ Isereails (I think) that die in the Summer. Their famileies anyhow. A sixteen year-old Palestinian kid was shot in the head and killed today by the IDF in the West Bank.

Also today, Gaza militants fired a Qassam rocket at Israel’s western desert.

Guess which incident will be considered a violation of the November 26th cease fire.

[Tribesman]

A sixteen year-old Palestinian kid was shot in the head and killed today by the IDF in the West Bank.


Damn , I could have sworn that the IDF had standing orders not to shoot stone throwers
The silly kid obviously didn't realise that the unequvocal order in effect since '98 to not shoot stone throwers doesn't really mean that there is an uneqivocal order not to shoot stone throwers .:shrug:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

think that requires magic glasses to be able to see it like that .
.

Yes, some people don't read :inquisitive:




"A sixteen year-old Palestinian kid was shot in the head and killed today by the IDF in the West Bank.

Also today, Gaza militants fired a Qassam rocket at Israel’s western desert.

Guess which incident will be considered a violation of the November 26th cease fire."

Ever Though of both of them? :no:

[Watchman]

And which one US media is likely to publish ? As I often like to recount, I have been told by an American Jew who'd only recently been to Israel that the US media is more or less categorically pro-Israel, and tends to forget some serious attitude issues the Israelis tend to have.