Can you explain...Cavalry Vs Spearmen [Archive] - Page 2

Paolai

01-25-2007, 16:12

I'm afraid Paolai you're terribly wrong. In my and reality's opinion at least, that is in facts. Life doesn't go like this:

So, a militia barely trained unit holding swords should easily swipe a unit of noble highly trained unit of Pikemen.. Errr.. Where's the reason in that!

Currently, through the MP community, you seem to be the only one complaining about not being able to kill cavalry, it only makes people wonder.. And, it leaves us with 2 choices.. Either that all of them are wrong and you are right (Which is the option you seem to emphasize), or that all of them are right and you're wrong. I haven't played the game, am just trying to assume consciousness of what everyone is saying, and trying to judge who's correct and who's wrong.

On another subject, I don't take Puzz3D's opinion, or any other patron's opinion in regard for this matter, knowing clearly that they either don't have the game, or are just not participating in the current community tournaments.

A great Karateka that studied martial art for 20 years can do nothing if I have a gun, you cathced my point?
Cav can do nothing vs a long spear, also if the knight is well trained.

MMhhh...no, I know how to kill cavs, I am just saying that it is the wrong way (with another cav). YOu will be wonder what it my % of wins in MTW2. It is soo high that atm I am bored of it, cause no skill is needed, just the right army, and the right army is a cav based army cause there is not an anti cavs unit. You cathced my point now? I am not saying that I am not able to win, I am saying that it is not fun to win with imbalances army, at least it is not what Palamedes promised before the game was released.

I posted some of my replays here
www.totalwaritalia.it

x-dANGEr

01-25-2007, 17:49

A great Karateka that studied martial art for 20 years can do nothing if I have a gun, you cathced my point?
Not that this comparison is at the slightest close to the case, but, not if you don't know how to use the gun, or are so bad at using it that you end up shooting yourself, or even forgetting about pulling the trigger. Got my point?

Give me a spear and I won't be able to stand against a Knight covered with full plate charging at me.. I tell you that. Give me a gun and I won't do it as well.. Knowing how bad my aim is, and wondering if my bullet will go through his thick armor, or even touch him. Give me a sword and I won't go close to an elite Pikeman.. No thanks. Got my point again?

The thing is.. You guys have written balance into defined points. Such as:

A Spearmen unit should be able to beat a Knight unit 3 times its price.. Errr.. Was there a meeting between the elected leaders of balance in the world that came up with those results? Or it just from your own personal opinion and view that surprisingly, few people agree to? (There is no question cavalry is too strong from what it seems.. But it also seems that the people haven't yet assumed knowledge of the engine and its deep factoring, the evidence on that is the hugely different opinions you get from people..)

About Puzz3D knowing the engine.. Well, I remember back discussing RTW, there were many things that he by his knowledge of the engine didn't know about, things that I experience through long many hours of playing, rather than studying numbers.

EDIT:

But up till now, with all the bugs that are discovered, you have no right to judge the game, except by saying "buggy".

yiph

01-25-2007, 18:07

i like m2tw and enjoying playing online with it. but u gotta agree cav IS NOT BALANCED ATM:thumbsdown:

ElmarkOFear

01-25-2007, 18:20

I agree, but I don't think you will find anyone to argue with you about that point. Cav needs some work in the next patch. However, there are still opportunities to beat cav without resorting to cav. It is just "very difficult" to pull off. So players who take armies with little or no cav are at a disadvantage when playing against someone who does.

Personally, I don't care if a new, inexperienced player beats me, but there are many that do. It is also the main reason they don't like M2TW, they feel stuck having to get the same type army to insure they win against the powerful cav armies being chosen by newer and more inexperienced players. I enjoy the challenge of coming up with new ways, and new techniques for defeating such armies, but others find it annoying to have to do such things to win without resorting to using the best units/factions.

Paolai

01-25-2007, 18:20

A Spearmen unit should be able to beat a Knight unit 3 times its price.. Errr.. Was there a meeting between the elected leaders of balance in the world that came up with those results?

SURE! these are personal opinions!!! You think the game is balanced as it is now, and I respect your opinion, np at all for me, but then I try to explain to you what is balance for me: spears should always beat cavs, swords sould always beat spears, cavs should always beat swords. This is for exaple the balance we had in STW. THis is for example the balance we have in BFME and in BFME II.

YOu cannot win with all cavs in STW
YOu cannot win with all cavs in BFME/BFME II

no matter how skilled you are, there is no way you can do it, you have to have different kind of units to win the match.

You can win always with a cav army based in MTW2.

x-dANGEr

01-26-2007, 00:56

Fair enough, Paolai. But I want to correct you, I don't think it is balanced. I think nothing actually, I can only hold all your views "wrong" for the current time, due to the few "game-breaking" bugs in the game.

Puzz3D

01-26-2007, 02:20

If every unit has it a unit that can counter it the game would be extremely boring.
That statement reveals that you don't know what you are talking about. I've never seen anybody say the gameplay in STW, which had a working RPS, was boring except you. Balance isn't having players field units that are all about the same so that the gameplay ends up being a big pig pile. M2TW has a flanking tactic, but so do the Total War games that have a working RPS. Flanking and RPS are not mutually exclusive if the units are well balanced.

In Samurai Wars, every unit has a counterunit and no player who has tried it has said the gameplay was boring. The gameplay is actually very challenging, and that's without using purchased upgrades or battlefield upgrades. Samurai Wars has the best spears of any Total War game, and yet you won't do well if you load up with too many spear units. We see a wide variety of army types used successfully as long as they contain at least a few elements of each component of the RPS.

MTW/VI had unbalanced units. Weak ranged units and weak spear units resulted in those components eventually dropping out of multiplayer battles. This made the battles a lot less interesting than they would have been if the RPS had been working properly. Instead of coordinating 4 components of an RPS you only had to coordinate 2 components. In Samurai Wars, we have 3 different RPS systems working simultaneously, and the resultant gameplay is very complex even though the unit selection is small. And BTW, you can't gain an advantage by faction selection because all factions have the same unit types. You can't gain an advantage by studying the unit stats for the purpose of buying certain units with certain upgrades applied to them. You have to create the advantage on the battlefield by using superior strategy and tactics.

pike master

01-26-2007, 07:05

at one time mario bros. was rocking cool.now dont seem to look as high tech as it did. shogun? couldnt understand what they were saying. lol

Stig

01-26-2007, 09:49

I've never seen anybody say the gameplay in STW was boring except you.
I never played STW how could I say it was boring :laugh4:
I wasn't even talking about STW

Oh and if Samurai Wars is THAT good, why do you still have to advertise for it :laugh4:

And btw X-Danger is right when he said this:

So, a militia barely trained unit holding swords should easily swipe a unit of noble highly trained unit of Pikemen.. Errr.. Where's the reason in that!
Answer that question first

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

01-26-2007, 10:36

And btw X-Danger is right when he said this:

So, a militia barely trained unit holding swords should easily swipe a unit of noble highly trained unit of Pikemen.. Errr.. Where's the reason in that!

Answer that question first

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)#The_Pike_as_a_Weapon]

-pikemen only few trained with sword
- only without or small shield

and my personal opinion: If you wear a heavy pike long time, you should be more tired than a sword man.

Stig

01-26-2007, 10:52

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

01-26-2007, 11:03

Yes, but if I who never fought with a sword have to fight a Veteran Pikeman who survived 20 battles fight eachother, who do you think will win?
Me or the pikeman?

Puzz would say me, but I'm sure that I'll lose

Very theoretical, but if these pikeman has survived 20 battles, he has never fought against a sword. Why he should win against a sword then? He is only trained to move in formation and to hold this pike right. In a disorder melee he has no chance against a sword and it doesn't matter whether it is trained less or is elite. The chances for victory are very less. May be the kill ratio against elite sword men is 1:10 and against milita sword or axes men only 2:3 but they lose.

Stig

01-26-2007, 11:07

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

if he has a pike he will make sure I can't even approach him
seriously

btw most likely he would carry a short sword for close combat as well ~D

Kenchi_Shaka

01-26-2007, 14:28

the pikes were developed to counter the lances of heavy cavalry.

the relation between swords and pikes depends very much on the situation.
some few men were able to disrupt a pike formation if there was back up.

pikes can hold other inf at distance, but they killed only little...

Hans Jakob Christoffel von Grimmelshausen, an autor during the 17th century wrote about pikes:

"and i believe he who killes a pikeman (wich could have been spared) murderes an innocent, and cant justifie the kill... he who charges into their pikes deserves it."

the lenght of the weapon and the weight of armour sometimes were also a disadvantage.

the sword has advantages to the pike also... it can be yielded faster, more precise, it can parry and prisoners can be taken.

myamoto musashi explains in the "book of five rings" that the spear is useless to take prisoners, and once the distance has been reduced the sword has a clear advantage to the spear.

the question is, if a tight phalanx of pikemen were superiour to lets say a unit of swordsmen under the same circumstances.
history has examples for both and isnt very conclusive.
it would be to the benefit of the game if swords in general could beat spears and pikes.

Oh and if Samurai Wars is THAT good, why do you still have to advertise for it

maybe u wouldnt enjoy, thats a matter of taste but samurai wars aint THAT good. its the BEST available concerning stats balance. unfortunately to few ppl seem to play it.

YOu cannot win with all cavs in BFME/BFME II

wots bfme?

shaka

Stig

01-26-2007, 14:35

it would be to the benefit of the game if swords in general could beat spears and pikes.
Well they can

Kenchi_Shaka

01-26-2007, 14:40

yes, the major imbalance is between inf and cav or between spears and cav. alltho for my taste compared to swords, spears but especially pikes are either to strong or to cheap.

Paolai

01-26-2007, 14:56

wots bfme?

shaka

Battle for the middle earth

Fenix7

01-26-2007, 15:40

It is all true about swords, spears, etc.In the early and high medieval century (talking for western part of the world) there almost were no sword units, except dismounted knights and mercenaries. We could endlessly discuss historical facts, each one claming his own right.

Another fact is that if you want a balanced strategical gameplay you need rock/scissor/paper system as many times mentioned around here.

x-dANGEr

01-26-2007, 17:02

A "rock/scissor/paper" doesn't mean that just because a militia unit has swords, it can beat the noble highly trained Pikemen unit. Nor does it mean that because someone could ride a horse can easily kill a highly trained elite swordsman.. Neither does it mean that a peasant with a spear can have a chance at beating a Knight.. Errr..

Stig

01-26-2007, 17:03

Kenchi_Shaka

01-26-2007, 17:42

rock, sciccor, paper means that there s a balance between prices, combat stats and the specialisation of units.

that means that the noble highly trained pikemen better avoids the militia swords cause alltho they are more expirienced and better equiped the swords have a natural advantage and the pikes will only win at high costs. or a horsemen with a lance has a natural advantage against a swordsman etc.

there is some balance in m2tw, but there are many ppl that dont like it the way it is...

Battle for the middle earth

is it worth buying it?

shaka

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

01-26-2007, 17:51

and the specialisation of units.

Kind of weapon: axe, sword, spear, lance ...

An axe destroy armor, a sword has an advantage in infight, spear against cav. (Lancer)Cav has a good charge effect and is faster (!) then the others. But please no charge kill rate as it is. That is totally :laugh4: :wall:

But okay, it is senseless to discuss. CA will go their own way. I guess they have a lot to bug fix in the Singleplayer part. :smash:

pike master

01-26-2007, 18:25

keep it in tune with reality and adjust the prices is the best approach

ElmarkOFear

01-27-2007, 05:24

Shaka: Battle For Middle Earth isn't a bad game. It is quite fun as RTS go. I like Dawn of War better, but it runs a close second.

Stig

01-27-2007, 07:38

Aye the fun part is that I won the campaign with only Rohan Cav ... which should be impossible

Paolai

01-27-2007, 09:24

Stig, play me in BFME 1 or 2 (your choose), then lets talk again ok? ~:) So plz arrange a time. Choose for me also the faction or if you prefer I can play random faction.

Paolai

01-27-2007, 09:27

Shaka: Battle For Middle Earth isn't a bad game. It is quite fun as RTS go. I like Dawn of War better, but it runs a close second.

have you played also BFME II? Imho it is a better game. I am still playing it after more than 1 year. A very good multyplayer with automatic ladder and a very well done automatic ladder for clan.

ElmarkOFear

01-27-2007, 09:55

OOps! Sorry Paoli. Yes, I forgot to put the 2 after BFME. :) I wasn't to thrilled with BFME1 either. 2 beats it easily in my book.

Yes, does it have an expansion out for it now or has it not been released yet? I just have the original BFME2. I've never played that game online though I have played my son over LAN. Its quite fun, but I am much better at DoW. :) I always play as the Orcs. They are the weakest faction once you hit the level 2 techs, so you really have to get on the enemy from the start to harrass them and keep them away from those higher techs.

My DoW online name is: UglyElmORKo :)

Paolai

01-27-2007, 10:13

Well if you wanna try online BFME II (not the exp) beep me ~:)

Kenchi_Shaka

01-27-2007, 10:30

ok thx, i ll have a look at it later ;)

TosaInu

01-27-2007, 10:52

Sorry if I missed this if it was already said:

STW, MTW and to some extent also RTW and M2TW (?) do not have the rigid RPS that a spear always beats a horse, nor does a sword always beat a spear. The units have a clear advantage over the other, simplified with reality (a sword does have an advantage over a spear once it passed the sharp points (especially) in confined space. And yes many pikeunits have a sword 'sidearm', but they also have to hold their pike and/or are trained less/differently to use that sword and are thus at a serious disadvantage once the sword closed in; an expert Tae Kwon Doka has elbows, yet he's in huge trouble when a novice Muay Thai fighter closes in).

In order not to 'kill' the slow CPU we had in the STW days, those if then but while advantages were generalized to a simple combatbonus. This bonus helped cheap spears to beat expensive cavalry (which also happens authentically when the conditions are right, whether that is destroying or fencing off).

However, there were also other generalized bonuses that mimiced reality and helped cavalry to beat spears when the manoeuver was right: height advantages, flanking, backstabbing, effect of charge working when backstabbing instead of voiding it when frontally clashing into spears, morale and fatigue.

STW nor MTW were perfect, not by a long shot (ok, that was one of the problems actually). The flaws could partly be excused by the public lack of powerful hardware to do the required calculation to make it more real. There was hope that a next TW title would support such realism more, there have been some other course corrections though. All games contain elements which I'ld like to see properly combined into one title. When that's done: wait for holodeck support :thumbsup:

pike master

01-27-2007, 15:59

Very theoretical, but if these pikeman has survived 20 battles, he has never fought against a sword. Why he should win against a sword then? He is only trained to move in formation and to hold this pike right. In a disorder melee he has no chance against a sword and it doesn't matter whether it is trained less or is elite. The chances for victory are very less. May be the kill ratio against elite sword men is 1:10 and against milita sword or axes men only 2:3 but they lose.

after pikes came on the battlefield heavy cavalry was still used but sword and shield infantry disappeared. the only weapons that survived a little while after that was pole arms, the very short reign of great swords, and the hand and a half sword. so basically one handed swords turned into the handgun of today. a weapon of last resort.

Kenchi_Shaka

01-27-2007, 16:11

i think sword and shield "disappeared" because cavalary became more important after the stirrup had been introduced and improvements were made concerning armour.
the swords somehow was allways present untill ww1 and ww2.

during medieval the sword often was replaced by an axe or something that could penetrate armour easier than a sword.

Puzz3D

01-27-2007, 19:59

I never played STW how could I say it was boring :laugh4:
I wasn't even talking about STW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
"If every unit has it a unit that can counter it the game would be extremely boring."

Well, in STW every unit has a counter unit, so you were talking about STW even if you didn't realize it.

Oh and if Samurai Wars is THAT good, why do you still have to advertise for it :laugh4:
Samurai Wars is a mod. You're laugh displays ignorance of how difficult it is to get players to use mods.

And btw X-Danger is right when he said this: "So, a militia barely trained unit holding swords should easily swipe a unit of noble highly trained unit of Pikemen.. Errr.. Where's the reason in that!"

Answer that question first
First of all, homogeneous sword units didn't exist. The men in those kinds of units used a variety of melee weapons. Homogeneous sword units are a construction of the game so that it can have an RPS gameplay. It doesn't make sense to make a unit in order to create an RPS gameplay, and then use it to break the RPS gameplay.

We have a weak spear and a strong spear in Samurai Wars. Heavy cav beats the weak spear. We have weak cav that cannot beat the strong sword unit. We have a weak sword unit that can only beat the stronger spear 6 times out of 10. So, the RPS gameplay isn't black and white.

We could make a strong spear in Samurai Wars that beats the strong sword, but why do that when it would damage the gameplay to have a unit that could beat two of the components of the RPS? If we made such a spear unit, it would have to be very expensive otherwise the sword units would disappear from the battlefield. RPS is what ensures that all the unit types will be used.

BTW, there are no pikemen units or any other kind of units that have survived 20 battles in multiplayer. Units don't even survive 1 battle in multiplayer. That's why LongJohn removed battlefield upgrades from MTW multiplayer. He agreed that they shouldn't be in multiplayer because their primary purpose is to make the unit better in the next battle.

But okay, it is senseless to discuss. CA will go their own way.
I think it should be discussed no matter what CA decides to do. There are people who don't want to play Total War if the spears don't work properly. If CA decides not to correct the spears, prospective customers should know about it.

Stig

01-27-2007, 20:02

m8 I'm not interested in Samurai Wars, CA isn't interested in the changes you made. If they were they would have done the same as with Lusted fabulous mod. This is about MTW2 not Samurai Wars

Fenix7

01-27-2007, 22:09

i think sword and shield "disappeared" because cavalary became more important after the stirrup had been introduced and improvements were made concerning armour.
As far I know sword and shield were too expensive items for medieval western pesant armies meaning that only knights and mercenaries were using them. Most armies (even eastern) were using maces, clubs, axes, etc (talking for cavalry as well).This were the cheapest weapons and they were very easy to use and their effect was good too. On the other hand sword techinque is most difficult to learn and to master.

And about BFME II. I've never played it so I don't claim anything here, but I remember a post from one hardcore BFME player (while I was browsing their forums to get some info about a game) who mentioned that BFME II is much less tacitcal and less balanced then BFME I. So it goes again.

ps.Anyhow 2nd patch for MTW 2 is needed.

Stig

01-27-2007, 22:13

On the other hand sword techinque is most difficult to learn and to master.
Well you had simple militia's with a sword, but the normal most used infantry was just that rabble as you mentioned. Axes, clubs, maces, swords all used just to hit the opponent and hope he dies before you do. They certainly didn't use fighting techniques as we see them in those movies, they were just fighting, not doing arts.

x-dANGEr

01-28-2007, 00:15

CBR

01-28-2007, 00:26

I'm just disagreeing to anyone who says the cheapest sword unit should be able to beat the most expensive pike unit just because one has a sword and another has a pike.
No Total War game has ever been like that nor should it be. Actually the game that comes closest is uhm M2TW but thats most likely because of the shield bug.

CBR

Puzz3D

01-28-2007, 00:46

m8 I'm not interested in Samurai Wars, CA isn't interested in the changes you made.
I don't care if you or CA are interested or not.

Puzz3D

01-28-2007, 00:59

Puzz3D.. Am not interested in what you have. I'm just disagreeing to anyone who says the cheapest sword unit should be able to beat the most expensive pike unit just because one has a sword and another has a pike.
Well Samurai Wars doesn't have that kind of gameplay. The cheapest sword costs 500 and the most expensive spear costs 400. The sword unit beats the spear unit because it's a better unit not because it is a sword.

Lusted

01-28-2007, 01:23

If they were they would have done the same as with Lusted fabulous mod. This is about MTW2 not Samurai Wars

Thank you for your comments about my mod, and you are aware im chatting to Palamedes about balancing changes aren't you?

x-dANGEr

01-28-2007, 01:36

Well Samurai Wars doesn't have that kind of gameplay. The cheapest sword costs 500 and the most expensive spear costs 400. The sword unit beats the spear unit because it's a better unit not because it is a sword.

It simply dazzles me how you take everything said as a comparision to your mod. You really only push people's nurves by posting an ad every couple of posts.

I'm simply replying to this:

So also the cheaper spears should beat ALL the cavs, ALL the swords shoud beat the spears and ALL the cavs should beat the swords.

pike master

01-28-2007, 03:59

it still strays from the fact that sword and shield swordsmen were obsolete versus pikemen. the romans only way to defeat them historically was with pilum, wrapping and exploiting weaknesses in the pike formation. there are no heavy sword and shield infantry in the game i know that use the javelin. there are light infantry in spain and elsewhere and i woudnt be surprised if they would actually do a better job against pikes or at least break it up enough for sword and shield heavies to work their way in.

fuedal dismounted knights and sword and buckler men should not be able to compromise a pike formation unless it is in rocky, wooded or urban terrain plain and simple.

one thing they should excel at are in assaults on cities and forts where pikes, and halberds are not well suited for.

now if there were units such as hand and a half swords(currently there arnt any). or your great swords, halberds etc etc those are the type of infantry that after a time should be able to exploit a weakness in a pike formation and compromise it.

if sword and shield infantry were so good at crushing pikes then where were they on the battlefield during the late period historically. the only ones who kept using sword and shield that im aware of were the scottish highlanders who used them all the way up into the 17th and 18th century but more out of pride and because british troops were intimidated by the highlander charge much like allied troops were afraid of the bonzai charge in world war 2. they were rarely effective but when they were they caused immense casualties.

by then the hand and a half claymore had evolved into a one handed basket hilted sword with a heavy blade.

sure one handed swords were used for a long time but for most it was a secondary weapon or a gentlemens weapon. the only time it became a primary weapon again was when cavalry trained to use it from horseback but then that was usually after they discharged carbines, flintlock pistols or revolvers or broke their lances.

its like trying to send our troops into battle in iraq with pistols instead of longarms.

Kenchi_Shaka

01-28-2007, 10:28

it still strays from the fact that sword and shield swordsmen were obsolete versus pikemen. the romans only way to defeat them historically was with pilum

the flexibility of the roman manipular system was much higher than the greek and macedonian phalanx system.

fuedal dismounted knights and sword and buckler men should not be able to compromise a pike formation unless it is in rocky, wooded or urban terrain plain and simple.

i have read of mediaval battles where some irregular infantry disrupted the pike formation and so broke it up.
the twohander swords units, afaik, were especially designed to break up the pike formations.
i dunno wot exactly is the difference between the way sarissai fought and the way pikes fought, (if that is known at all.)

if sword and shield infantry were so good at crushing pikes then where were they on the battlefield during the late period historically. the only ones who kept using sword and shield that im aware of were the scottish highlanders who used them all the way up into the 17th and 18th century but more out of pride and because british troops were intimidated by the highlander charge much like allied troops were afraid of the bonzai charge in world war 2. they were rarely effective but when they were they caused immense casualties.

i dont think sword and shield lost importance because of the pikes, but because of the heavy cavalry.
however, i would like to see the swords beat the spears for gameplay reasons, not for historical accuracity. historical accuracity in a pc game is a fiction anyway.
if the sword and shield units didnt excist to that time, being accurate on the relation between them and pikes is a joke.

Stig

01-28-2007, 11:06

I don't care if you or CA are interested or not.
Why do you still mention it then?

and you are aware im chatting to Palamedes about balancing changes aren't you?
Aye luckely you are chatting to him ~D

i dont think sword and shield lost importance because of the pikes, but because of the heavy cavalry.
however, i would like to see the swords beat the spears for gameplay reasons, not for historical accuracity. historical accuracity in a pc game is a fiction anyway.
if the sword and shield units didnt excist to that time, being accurate on the relation between them and pikes is a joke.
Yes but start counting, if you play late period how many Pike units can you bring? And how many Sword?
If I'm correct most factions have more and better Pike units, there are some exceptions (HRE, Spain (with loads of sword and buckler like men). But by this time the dismounted knights wouldn't work anymore. The only proper sword infantry left are those light armoured swordsmen that Spain has and the Zweihanders.

x-dANGEr

01-28-2007, 14:50

however, i would like to see the swords beat the spears for gameplay reasons, not for historical accuracity. historical accuracity in a pc game is a fiction anyway.
Huh! Well I wouldn't. Simply, it should be that if you manage to break the pikes formation and sneak in a unit, it would devastate them. Which is the case in RTW now.

Puzz3D

01-28-2007, 16:37

Why do you still mention it then?
For people who are expecting a different gameplay than what M2TW provides.

So, a militia barely trained unit holding swords should easily swipe a unit of noble highly trained unit of Pikemen.. Errr.. Where's the reason in that!
The reason I responded to that is because Stig asked me to.

Answer that question first.
He was saying that to me.

If the knights are on horses, the spearmen should be effective in stopping them. If the knights are not on horses then the spearmen would be less effective. Just how effective the spearmen are against cav would depend on their cost, but a spear unit should be equal in combat to a cav unit costing about 3x what the spear unit costs. At the very minimum it should be able to equal cav costing 2x. If you don't set the game up that way, then the cav is not paying enough for its higher mobility, and anyone who has played Total War multiplayer knows that mobility is valuable on the battlefield.

For some unexplained reason, CA decided not to allow the knights to dismount when they take the field. If they had, that would have negated the combat advantage the spears get against them when they are mounted and made the knights superior to the spears. In any case, for infantry vs infantry it's the better unit that should win, and the better unit should cost more than the units it beats. Such a superior spear unit would be rather expensive because it possesses an anti-cav combat bonus which has value that would add to its already higher cost of being the better unit. You could then limit the number of these high quality spears that appear in battles by limiting the money available for purchasing units. This would also be what limits the number of high quality cavalry.

The RPS doesn't have to work only in terms of what unit beats what. It can also operate on a cost effective basis. For instance, a cav costing 6x more than a spear would beat that spear, but the monetary cost of doing it would favor the spear if the cav lost more than 1/6 of it's men. The same type of monetary RPS can be at work, for instance, in the situation of cav charging guns if the cav is very expensive and the guns cheap. This type of tactical play can achieve a temporary positional advantage akin to sacrificing a piece in chess. It can work if you are able utilize the initiative gained to win back the material sacrificed. This type of high level tactical gameplay is achievable in Total War if it's set up properly and the units are well balanced.

Now apparently CA doesn't want to set M2TW up the way I describe, and I mention it for those players who are expecting it to be the way I describe based on the PR for the game which is not clear on this matter, and even goes as far to claim that M2TW should appeal to veterans of the game. I don't know how that can be true when the gameplay isn't anything like the game those veterans originally played.

pike master

01-28-2007, 16:45

i mentioned great sword units as being units that were able to hold their own against pikemen. my statements were against one handed sword and shield infantry.

a point though is i have seen sword and buckler men do some significant damage in the game against a host of units. does the shield bug affect them ?

if it does they may end up being overpowered if they are patched.

Lusted

01-28-2007, 16:58

Now apparently CA doesn't want to set M2TW up the way I describe, and I mention it for those players who are expecting it to be the way I describe based on the PR for the game which is not clear on this matter, and even goes as far to claim that M2TW should appeal to veterans of the game. I don't know how that can be true when the gameplay isn't anything like the game those veterans originally played.

Or CA didn't get the balance right in the initial release, probably also caused the shield bug that seriously unbalances spears v cav.

In my chat with Palamedes it is quite clear he wants more of the RPS system and balance you describe, as that is what i've done in my mod, and if he didn't want that kind of balance he wouldn't be chatting to me about my balancing changes.

x-dANGEr

01-28-2007, 18:28

The reason I responded to that is because Stig asked me to.
You responded agreeing to it?

Stig

01-28-2007, 20:25

If the knights are on horses, the spearmen should be effective in stopping them.
I hope you mean Pikemen, and not the Sergeant and Armoured Spearmen. You try stopping a charging horse with only a 1 meter spear.

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

01-29-2007, 09:38

Or CA didn't get the balance right in the initial release, probably also caused the shield bug that seriously unbalances spears v cav.

In my chat with Palamedes it is quite clear he wants more of the RPS system and balance you describe, as that is what i've done in my mod, and if he didn't want that kind of balance he wouldn't be chatting to me about my balancing changes.

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned, that the strong cav charge is for the new player. They want to have flying men on the field.

Stig

01-29-2007, 09:45

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned
I think Lusted would know the answer, but I think CA thought they found the absolute balance ... and Lusted proved them wrong

You must also see this:
People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

CBR

01-29-2007, 14:49

I hope you mean Pikemen, and not the Sergeant and Armoured Spearmen. You try stopping a charging horse with only a 1 meter spear.
Most spears were 8-10 feet long. Why should a thick formation of prepared spearmen not be able to stop a cavalry charge? Italian pavesiers seems to have protected their crossbowmen just fine.

CBR

Stig

01-29-2007, 15:18

Most spears were 8-10 feet long. Why should a thick formation of prepared spearmen not be able to stop a cavalry charge?
Dunno if you have the game or not, but there are 2 kind of Spear units in it.
Spearmen and Pikemen. Pikemen have good spears and pikes, about 10 to 20 feet long, Spearmen have a little spear, max 6 feet long, and not very rock solid, as you have it in only one hand, one trust won't be enough to stop a horse, with a bit of luck you cripple him.

and if you were a spearmen (as they are in MTW2) you would agree with me that you would rather run then stand ground if 200 mad and wild horses were charging at you

|Heerbann|_Di3Hard

01-29-2007, 15:39

People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

If you had played MTW 1, you would see the thing in another way. But the balance was also only one big issue, why I sold that game. At all I would say, that the mp mode is only in the game because it had to be in. I couldn't see any intelligent decisions, only strange compromises.

CBR

01-29-2007, 15:56

Spears seem more like 8 feet in M2TW. Historically they would plant the spear into the ground just like pikes did, to have a chance of impaling the horse. Even Romans were supposed to do that with their 6 foot long pila.

I would certainly say that pikes would be even better at scaring off a rider. But if any actual high speed impact happened there is no real difference as both weapons have same chance of splintering (some spears might actually be thicker than pikes). There would potientially be more pike heads to hit the horse and rider than with shorter spears though. If some cavalry managed to get into the formation, pikes would actually be at a bigger disadvantage than spears and polearms.

To have some clear cut difference saying spears would be slaughtered and pikes would not is just not historical.

CBR

Stig

01-29-2007, 16:15

If you had played MTW 1, you would see the thing in another way.
Ah well I never did, and I know someone who beta-tested it from .com, and afaik he never played MTW either, but I'm sure someone else did.

At all I would say, that the mp mode is only in the game because it had to be in. I couldn't see any intelligent decisions, only strange compromises.
That has been so in RTW too, this time it's even a little bit better, as you can now only bring max 4 of each unit. Tho personally I would change that.

I would make it max 5 cav, every unit over that will cost you more too, same for Ranged Units (Archers, Muskets). And for Art, but I would limit that to 2. Then I wouldn't limit Infantry as it's done now, I would make 3 categories, Elite, Normal and Weak. From each Elite infantry unit I can only bring 3, and a max of 5 Elites, before I have to pay more money. From each Normal I can bring 4, and a max of 8 Normal. And for Weak it would be 6 per unit and a total of 12 Weak.

I would certainly say that pikes would be even better at scaring off a rider.
Aye, I agree, I wouldn't even dare to drive my horse into a pike formation if I were a knight.

To have some clear cut difference saying spears would be slaughtered and pikes would not is just not historical.
I don't ... atleast don't mean to. It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.

pike master

01-29-2007, 18:04

actually there are three lengths 4 ft boar spears for town miltia etc

8 ft for militia spearmen, papal guard and so forth

and 16 + ft pikes

Kenchi_Shaka

01-29-2007, 18:40

You must also see this:
People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

i think the bug that is meant here is the "blob" bug. it has been reduced since rtw but somehow its still there and especially cav charges make it visibile.

I would make it max 5 cav, every unit over that will cost you more too, same for Ranged Units (Archers, Muskets). And for Art, but I would limit that to 2. Then I wouldn't limit Infantry as it's done now, I would make 3 categories, Elite, Normal and Weak. From each Elite infantry unit I can only bring 3, and a max of 5 Elites, before I have to pay more money. From each Normal I can bring 4, and a max of 8 Normal. And for Weak it would be 6 per unit and a total of 12 Weak.

i like the idea of having differnt restriction for different classes.

Puzz3D

01-29-2007, 19:36

You responded agreeing to it?
Yes. It's not good to make the RPS too strong. When the RPS is too strong, making matchups becomes the dominant tactic, and flanking maneuvers or bringing up supporting units to assist units already engaged becomes less important either because it isn't needed or because the combat resolves before the maneuver can be completed.

I also agree that cheaper swords should not be beating more expensive pikes. The sword unit should cost more than the infantry unit it beats. If pikes are going to be the strongest infantry unit on the battlefield, they should be the most expensive infantry unit.

I wouldn't rely on the tax on more than x of one type being the balancing mechanisim. The units should be balanced regardless of the tax. The tax is there to encourage combined arms armies, but that will happen anyway in a balanced RPS system. I wish we could get rid of the tax in Samurai Wars because it is not needed since counterarmies exist for every conceivable army composition.

Puzz3D

01-29-2007, 20:11

I don't ... atleast don't mean to. It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.
It doesn't matter what they look like. CA artists make all kinds of mistakes, and I wouldn't want a graphical mistake to affect the gameplay. For instance, in MTW Knights Templar were accidentally depicted with a sword but they were supposed to have a lance. LongJohn reduced their charge bonus because of that mistake by the artist, and then he had to reduce the cost of the unit because it wasn't as effective as other order knights. Then the players were wondering why a unit that was supposed to be the most elite unit in the game was inferior to other knights. I don't think that LongJohn should have reduced the effectiveness of the unit. He should have left it as powerful as it was supposed to be.

TosaInu

01-29-2007, 20:29

It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.

Spears are not 1m tall, horses are more than a head floating 2m above the ground. Spears are over 2m long wielded by a man of ~1.50 m and thus provide more than enough range to hit the rider, the horses head and the chest (the chest and flanks are a more likely targets, the legs for glaive like weapons).

I'ld argue that a spear of around 1 meter is already enough to kill off the horse (hit the chest). I recall images of Flemmish goedendags planted into the ground to fight horses. A completely different weapon, but acted like very short spears that way).

The rider would be knocked off then and at least have his coordination damaged for a while. Other spearmen in the unit will kill him while he's counting stars (spearunits have more men than knightunits). Of course the damage to such spearunits would be large: a killed horse would crush the impaler and the knights lance would probably outreach.

Lusted

01-29-2007, 21:27

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned, that the strong cav charge is for the new player. They want to have flying men on the field.

2 words: shield bug. Completely messes up spear v cav balance, and the balance of all units with shields.

I think Lusted would know the answer, but I think CA thought they found the absolute balance ... and Lusted proved them wrong

Nope they did not like the balance, hence why Pala is chatting to me about balancing stuff i'd done for my mod.

x-dANGEr

01-29-2007, 21:44

Yes. It's not good to make the RPS too strong. When the RPS is too strong, making matchups becomes the dominant tactic, and flanking maneuvers or bringing up supporting units to assist units already engaged becomes less important either because it isn't needed or because the combat resolves before the maneuver can be completed.

I also agree that cheaper swords should not be beating more expensive pikes. The sword unit should cost more than the infantry unit it beats. If pikes are going to be the strongest infantry unit on the battlefield, they should be the most expensive infantry unit.

I wouldn't rely on the tax on more than x of one type being the balancing mechanisim. The units should be balanced regardless of the tax. The tax is there to encourage combined arms armies, but that will happen anyway in a balanced RPS system. I wish we could get rid of the tax in Samurai Wars because it is not needed since counterarmies exist for every conceivable army composition.
There I agree. Though.. Why must a Spearmen unit be 1/3 the price of the cavalry unit it beats.. Is the faster movement for cavalry really worth all that price? Even knowing that in M2: TW, basically with fast moving you will lose the effective charge that usually makes a cavalry unit so devastating.

Chaos Cornelius lucius

01-29-2007, 23:37

Massi,
when a horse is in a pack of it fellows, and one starts to run the others will all join in and damn anything that gets in the way. Add this to a trained and armoured destrier with a rider, and a horse will charge a solid wall of men and spears. Have you never watched show jumping on TV?, although some of the horses will balk at the walls, they are frequently rode into jumping walls there own height.
Luc

Puzz3D

01-30-2007, 03:02

2 words: shield bug. Completely messes up spear v cav balance, and the balance of all units with shields.
Do you think that's the only game mechanic bug? I think there could be more. A programmer has to go through the entire battle engine code and make sure all the calculations are being done correctly. That isn't something that Palamedes can do, and I doubt CA would even let him do it if he could.

Nope they did not like the balance, hence why Pala is chatting to me about balancing stuff i'd done for my mod.
You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?

Why must a Spearmen unit be 1/3 the price of the cavalry unit it beats.. Is the faster movement for cavalry really worth all that price?
I said 1/3 to cover the most extreme case involving the best cav unit and a spear unit that isn't particularly effective against other infantry, but 1/2 cost could probably be made to work ok. It does depend on how big the anti-cav effect is. The bigger the anti-cav effect the lower you can make the cost of the spear unit because it can be made weaker against other infantry. The idea is to leave room on the cost scale to insert units that beat spears but loose to cav.

With a large anti-cav effect we've found spears at 400, swords at 500, 800 and 1000, and cav at 900, 1000 and 1200 works well. That spear is capable of defeating the strongest cav, but it's also easy to mess up and loose to that cav. The money allocated to each player provides an average of 562 to spend per unit. The ranged units are priced at 200, 300, 400 and 600, and there is a weak but fast spear priced at 200. These cost relationships, the unit stats and the gameplay were worked out by Creative Assembly seven years ago. We made some small adjustments based on feedback from multiplayer games played by top players to improve the gameplay, but that's it.

Now for a gameplay with stronger spears the price goes up, and for weaker swords, for example, the price goes down. If you had a spear or pike unit that was so strong that it beat every other infantry type and all the cav, it would probably end up nearly as expensive as the best cav unit. I suppose the gameplay could be set up with a relatively weak anti-cav effect such that the best spear is required to beat the best cav, but then you wouldn't want the best cav to be available when the best spear was not available. From a multiplayer point of view, you don't need many similar units of gradually increasing capability. All you need is one set of units that works well.

Even knowing that in M2: TW, basically with fast moving you will lose the effective charge that usually makes a cavalry unit so devastating.
Yes that's true and you wouldn't want to do that, but mobility is still valuable because it allows a unit to get into position faster. This reminds me of another issue with the cav charging mechanic in M2TW. Palamedes said there is a formed charge which is strong and an unformed charge which is weak. From what I've seen reported by players, the contrast between these two charge effects is too great. It's appears it's almost black and white. I think it's better to stay away from extremes like that in the gameplay just as it is regarding the RPS.

Stig

01-30-2007, 09:12

You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?
Shield bug:
if the shield should add 3 to the armour it in real takes 3 of.
Well just change that value into -3 and try again ~D

Paolai

01-30-2007, 10:19

also cavs have a shield, isnt it?

Stig

01-30-2007, 10:25

also cavs have a shield, isnt it?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76702

help yourself, open those HTML-comments and you'll see the different armour values in the second red column

Paolai

01-30-2007, 10:31

mmmhh...I miss your point. I just would like to know if also cavs have the shiled bug or not. Have they?

R'as al Ghul

01-30-2007, 10:44

I just would like to know if also cavs have the shield bug or not. Have they?

Yes, all units suffer from the same bug. All units with shield values will have those values substracted from their overall defense value, when in melee.
This means that a Spear unit with a huge shield (6 points) has those 6 points less than actually intended.
When you fix that as CA's Jerome Grasdyke has suggested, zeroing the shield value and adding half of it to armour and half to defense, the units play more like you would expect and actually correspond to what the in-game advisor tells you:"Charging your Cav into spears is suicide".
For Cav it's the same. As things are now, you're good advised to take only units without shields in MP. Lancers, Broken Lances etc. should be superior to other cav units in melee.

R'as

Paolai

01-30-2007, 10:47

thx for the info ~:)

TosaInu

01-30-2007, 11:12

Working around bugs, instead of fixing them, likely only results in other glitches. Unnoticed today perhaps, but lurking to destroy games.

I do not exactly recall how shields add to the defence combat in MTW, but they add only frontal protection to missiles. It does not add armour when shot in the back.

It was argued that shields should also have this property (frontal protection only) in defensive melee combat. TW games have this required positional information since STW, TW games have the required individual/unit defense value information since STW, TW games have the required have shield property since MTW, now with stronger CPU's it's possible to simulate reality better by adding one more switch:

if (frontalCombat and haveShield) {
defenseA= unitAdefense + shieldTypeDefense;
}
else {
defenseA = unitAdefense;
}

Stig

01-30-2007, 11:46

It does not add armour when shot in the back.
This is true, and therefore adding armour some where else won't work.

Lusted

01-30-2007, 14:33

Do you think that's the only game mechanic bug? I think there could be more. A programmer has to go through the entire battle engine code and make sure all the calculations are being done correctly. That isn't something that Palamedes can do, and I doubt CA would even let him do it if he could.

No its not something Pala can do but the other devs can do. There are some toher game engine bugs as well, but this is the big one, the main thing screwing up the balance.

You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?

I used the shield bug workaround, so i have some idea how units should be performing. Of course my suggestions for balancing are based on a bugged game, and only Pala who is palying whatever the latest version of the game with whatever proper bug fixes can test to see how my suggestions work in that version of the game.

There is more i want to say but cannot, iam limited in some aspects of what i can repeat of convso i've had with him.

Puzz3D

01-30-2007, 15:12

Shield bug:
if the shield should add 3 to the armour it in real takes 3 of.
Well just change that value into -3 and try again ~D
That doesn't work. The game doesn't accept a negative number in that parameter.

Stig

01-30-2007, 15:17

That doesn't work. The game doesn't accept a negative number in that parameter.
damned, would be an easy one

Lusted

01-30-2007, 15:22

It would be. The workaround is adding half the shield value rounded up to armor, half shield vaule rounded down to defense skill. You then zero the shield value.

Works quite well apart from weakening missile units slightly. Makes spear units actually useful against cav.

R'as al Ghul

01-30-2007, 15:40

Makes spear units actually useful against cav.

Yes. I know you've gone a bit further with modding values in LtC and I don't want to start a mod discussion but, I found the results of the shield fix alone very satisfying. Spears could kill/hurt Cav even before (when bogged down) but they would've lost a good number of their unit to the Cav charge. Shiltrom didn't help there.
With only the shield fix applied, Cav charges don't kill as many spearmen on the first impact and Shiltrom does indeed make sense and is effective.
To obliterate the spear unit the Cavalry needs to pull out and reform before it can charge another time.
Seeing that the charges have been toned down a bit in 1.1, meaning that a stray pebble or bush can disrupt the charge, it's quite historical in so far as the formed charge of the knights was a rare thing. The formed charge in a line was highly dependant on the terrain at hand: open flat ground, dry and firm. An army expecting Knights would do everything to deny the knights their desired terrain advantage. To model this in a game is extremely difficult but for me there're indications that CA had good intentions to present a compromise between historical authenticity and gameplay.
I think the shield_fix is nice to have for SP right now but that can hardly be the last word. Once the shield bug is fixed by CA we may have to start the discussion all over again. I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries. :yes:

R'as

Lusted

01-30-2007, 15:47

Yes. I know you've gone a bit further with modding values in LtC and I don't want to start a mod discussion but, I found the results of the shield fix alone very satisfying.

Yes i have gone further in LtC, but the balancing discussions im having with Pala is mainly about small changes, not some fo the big ones i've made.

I think the shield_fix is nice to have for SP right now but that can hardly be the last word. Once the shield bug is fixed by CA we may have to start the discussion all over again. I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries.

I can imagine that as well. Apparently cav charges are being tweaked some more for 1.2, with them less easy to disrupt, and less switching to swords after 1 guy has met the enemy lines. so people will probably complain that cav are nerfed, but atm they're far too overpowered.

Stig

01-30-2007, 15:50

Works quite well apart from weakening missile units slightly. Makes spear units actually useful against cav.
mmmm sounds good

I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries.
I'm with you there :bounce:

R'as al Ghul

01-30-2007, 16:03

Apparently cav charges are being tweaked some more for 1.2, with them less easy to disrupt, and less switching to swords after 1 guy has met the enemy lines. so people will probably complain that cav are nerfed, but atm they're far too overpowered.

I agree that they're overpowered now. I'm not sure I can follow you: less easy to disrupt+less switching to swords=nerfed cav? I think the opposite is more true!?
I'd like to see a proper charge where everybody uses his lance but I don't want to see whole units (perhaps some light ones) completely destroyed on impact. That should take several charges.

Imagine your Cav had only one charge with lances (because they break on impact) and would've to fight with swords the rest of the battle or rally at a certain place on the battle map (camp) where they can get new lances :laugh4:

Lusted

01-30-2007, 16:07

I agree that they're overpowered now. I'm not sure I can follow you: less easy to disrupt+less switching to swords=nerfed cav? I think the opposite is more true!?

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge(already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.

I'd like to see a proper charge where everybody uses his lance but I don't want to see whole units (perhaps some light ones) completely destroyed on impact. That should take several charges.

Same here, and from what Jason has said thats what he wants to see as well.

R'as al Ghul

01-30-2007, 16:10

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge(already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.
Ah, misunderstood you. We mean the same thing. Shield_fix nerfs the Cav.

Same here, and from what Jason has said thats what he wants to see as well.
:medievalcheers: to that

Puzz3D

01-30-2007, 18:40

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge (already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.
Well I would say certain unit types should not die no matter how many frontal charges a cav unit makes on them. Those would be the infantry unit types specifically designed to defeat a cavalry unit.

Lusted

01-30-2007, 23:15

Well I would say certain unit types should not die no matter how many frontal charges a cav unit makes on them. Those would be the infantry unit types specifically designed to defeat a cavalry unit.

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.

Puzz3D

01-31-2007, 06:31

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.
And what other units? What is the gameplay design goal?

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

01-31-2007, 07:26

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.

You mean, that shall make them invulnerable to cavalry from the front... Unfortunately it is not the case today, hence this topic.

Louis

Lusted

01-31-2007, 12:37

You mean, that shall make them invulnerable to cavalry from the front... Unfortunately it is not the case today, hence this topic.

Well im not sure about you, but if i've got my pikemen in spearwall formation and guard mode, and standing still, no cav can beat them as long as the pikemens flanks are protected.

Fenix7

01-31-2007, 12:56

Well im not sure about you, but if i've got my pikemen in spearwall formation and guard mode, and standing still, no cav can beat them as long as the pikemens flanks are protected.

Even if you click behind the unit not even attacking it?

Paolai

01-31-2007, 12:57

if you do not charge the pikes with cavs, but click behind the pike unit, cavs win.

Stig

01-31-2007, 12:59

if you do not charge the pikes with cavs, but click behind the pike unit, cavs win.
That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

Lusted

01-31-2007, 13:05

Even if you click behind the unit not even attacking it?

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.

Paolai

01-31-2007, 13:07

imho it is a bug, I mean I think pikes have a counter charge bonus. If they are not charged they have not that bonus and their formation is useless and fight in melee. Usually the stats of the pikes are not that high so they loose. I think this is the problem.

Paolai

01-31-2007, 13:13

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

nono just for pikes. You can charge spears frontally cliking on the unit. Spears have no counter charge bonus, just pikes...at least after my tests I suppose that.

TosaInu

01-31-2007, 13:18

CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

Such bugs exist since STW and they have been mentioned again and again.
The swipebug was devastating in MTW VI 1.0, routing units in STW 1.0 went berserk. The run through is pretty existent in RTW.

Those things can happen to players unintentionally.

x-dANGEr

01-31-2007, 13:19

I wish you were there to complain about it in the case of the immortal Clibnariis.. ERE ones.. Who are supposed to be weaker than Persian ones.. Yeah right.. Sorry for Off-topic.. ~:)

Puzz3D

01-31-2007, 17:55

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that. Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"
CA is well aware of the click behind, and they fixed the problem in MTW/VI v2.01. They referred to it as the infinite charge bug.

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.
You still don't get it. If you don't do it, you're going to loose in multiplayer because the other players are going to do it. Plenty of very good players used the click behind in MTW v1.1 all the time, and you couldn't stop them from doing it.

I'd still like to know what the gameplay design goal is.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

01-31-2007, 21:06

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

I am fairly confident that anyone who played any game of the TW series in any clan competition is going to try to "click behind" in the next 20 minutes after install.
(otherwise, they deserve to lose)

It's one of the oldest trick in the TW bag... It was the basic behind the swipe bug 5 years ago :dizzy2:

Louis,

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

01-31-2007, 21:10

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.

Yes... But it's irrelevant to a discussion in Multiplayer forum. Be sure human will use any "feature" available.

When it comes to pikes vs cav with AI, I wish the AI would learn to actually HOLD. AI trying to reform after a charge is one of the reason AI pike lose vs human cavalry in custom test.

Louis,

ElmarkOFear

01-31-2007, 21:28

Lusted

01-31-2007, 21:36

You still don't get it. If you don't do it, you're going to loose in multiplayer because the other players are going to do it. Plenty of very good players used the click behind in MTW v1.1 all the time, and you couldn't stop them from doing it.

I don't play multiplayer much, mainly due to modding. I didn't even know this really existed til people started to talk about it for RTw. It would certainly be a good thing to fix, but i can imagine it being quite complex as it;d probably require changing a lot of the game engine code.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

01-31-2007, 21:45

I just noticed that today Louis. I never really looked closely at the animations before, but after a cav charge they move around with thier pikes pointed straight up, until they get back in position, then they lower them again, but it is a long time in between.

There is also the "reforming" text when you hoover your mouse above the pike: most of the time, the pike try to reform behind the cav :dizzy2: so it get flanked in the process.

So you can't really rely on custom test vs AI, because AI, even in 1 unit vs 1 unit, both engaged, does silly mistakes...

However clikcing behind is quite telling, even before the AI is trying to "reform"

Louis,

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

01-31-2007, 21:54

I don't play multiplayer much, mainly due to modding. I didn't even know this really existed til people started to talk about it for RTw. It would certainly be a good thing to fix, but i can imagine it being quite complex as it;d probably require changing a lot of the game engine code.

As far as I know, only MTW/ VI 2.01 got it right, at the price of cavalry sometimes being stuck in units, it was part of anti swipe coding. It is complex indeed. However MTW II saving grace is a much larger difference between non charging behaviour and charging behaviour with cavalry and a much larger difference between spearwall and non spearwall formation for pike
The problem we face today is that:

- spearwall pike > charging cav (well, not really actually, but that would be easy to fix)
- spearwall pike < walking cav ( no anti charging bonus in play?)
- non spearwall pike < charging cav

And what is needed is:
- spearwall pike > charging cav (way more than today)
- spearwall pike > walking cav (whether there is a charging bonus or not)
- non spearwall pike < charging cav

Intuitively, I'd give pike in spearwall a large bonus vs cav, whether it is charging or not. If non spearwall pike dies, then so be it.
That still left us with spear issues: how to get it out of the bottomless pit?

I'd recommand you play a lot more MP for modding purposes, if only because it makes testing units alot easier :book:

Louis,

Carl

01-31-2007, 22:15

My advice when using Pikes, even in vanillia is to take them off guard mode, they fight a LOT better like that in my expirance and don't do the stupid reform thing. What happens with that is that the replacments from the rear ranks try to take the places of the dead guys and because of this they have to walk right past the cav and won't atack whilst doing this. Take em of Guard Mode and they don't so this and everyone in the formation fights who can get a pike. They even lower thier pikes when an enemy gets near when like tis so they can recive cav charges well and the walkthrough trick won't work.

Lusted

01-31-2007, 22:22

That still left us with spear issues: how to get it out of the bottomless pit?

Shield bug, its the one thing really messing up spears v cav. Once its fixed, spears will actually be useful.

I'd recommand you play a lot more MP for modding purposes, if only because it makes testing units alot easier

Can't play mp when you've modded the game and want to test your modded stats unless you have someone to play against who has the latest version of your modded files.

pike master

01-31-2007, 23:04

Paolai

02-01-2007, 10:02

Shield bug, its the one thing really messing up spears v cav. Once its fixed, spears will actually be useful.

but Pikes have NOT shield, but loose vs cavs IF not charged, so imho also the bonus that they have in melee vs cavs is too low.

You can run with your cavs when you want to attack a pike, important thing is that you click behind the pike and not on it.

TosaInu

02-01-2007, 10:37

but Pikes have NOT shield, but loose vs cavs IF not charged, so imho also the bonus that they have in melee vs cavs is too low.

That's possible Paolai. MTW and MTW VI had those extensive stats, including anti-cavalry specific defense and attack melee values for each unit. A pike unit would typically get a huge anti-cav defense melee and some rankbonus. This would result in a unit that can withstand frontal attacking cavalry for a long time. If the cavalry insist on attacking it frontally, it would finally be killed.

That was a fair simulation of reality back then to make a distinction with other anti-cavalry infantry (halberds, spears and other polearms) which lack the massive defense, but are more offensive.

Looks to me that there is a impregnable when frontally attacked by cavalry bonus right now. It's wrapped in an if charged condition, while it should be wrapped in a if frontally run into condition. The horse and rider are not killed because they charge pikes, but because they are at the wrong time and place (trying to move while a solid wall of pointy sticks is directed to them). Obvious of course, but makes quite some difference when put to code.

A pikewall is not just effective against cavalry, but would delay/stop anything frontally attacking them.

Paolai

02-01-2007, 11:02

A pikewall is not just effective against cavalry, but would delay/stop anything frontally attacking them.

infact pikes do well also vs swords when they are charged, but loose badly when a sword attack them cliking behind.
That's why I think they have a very good bonus vs all the units that charge them.

Lusted

02-01-2007, 11:31

but Pikes have NOT shield, but loose vs cavs IF not charged, so imho also the bonus that they have in melee vs cavs is too low.

I said spears v cav, not pikes v cav. Something needs to be changed about the spear wall formation, but the problem with clicking behind units seems to happen throughout the game engine so my guess is that it would take alot of code change to fix that problem.

Paolai

02-01-2007, 11:48

I said spears v cav, not pikes v cav. Something needs to be changed about the spear wall formation, but the problem with clicking behind units seems to happen throughout the game engine so my guess is that it would take alot of code change to fix that problem.

well, when you click behind the charge is not done by the unit that is charging, so just vs pikes or at least a unit that have a counter charge bonus is effective. Imho if CA give to pikes and spears an higher bonus in melee vs cavs it is a step frw.

machiavelli69

02-01-2007, 11:58

infact pikes do well also vs swords when they are charged, but loose badly when a sword attack them cliking behind.
That's why I think they have a very good bonus vs all the units that charge them.

For the sake of clarity, i've never seen the above happening (tried several times).
100% sure it works for cavalry.

Paolai

02-01-2007, 12:02

yes

pike master

02-01-2007, 15:00

so its true then that click behind is working against spearmen just like pikes?

also ive noticed that flank protection is too low. in rome the unit would send out skirmishers to fight its flank while the main formation kept its cohesion.im not seeing that as much here. schltrom worked excellent in rome and i would like to see it duplicated in this game. even if its could be argued against historical reality because horse bypass is not historical either and a lot of factions are worthless in the game because of this issue with overpowered cav and bugged defence.

Paolai

02-01-2007, 15:24

so its true then that click behind is working against spearmen just like pikes?

yes :shame:

TosaInu

02-01-2007, 15:44

well, when you click behind the charge is not done by the unit that is charging, so just vs pikes or at least a unit that have a counter charge bonus is effective. Imho if CA give to pikes and spears an higher bonus in melee vs cavs it is a step frw.

When charging swords at pikes, the pikes stop the swords? What happens when you use the click behind with swords?

I think it's better to fix this click behind by making it clear to the program that there's more than one way to frontally clash cavalry into pikes, than adding extra defense to the pike. You risk making them double effective and then force players to use the click behind instead of normal attack (as that makes the pikes double strong). Do mounted knights attack pikes by themselves?

Paolai

02-01-2007, 15:51

if swords charge pikes frontally swords "loose" I mean they take more damages (in money) than the pikes. If instead you click behind the pikes take more damages (in money) than the swords.

R'as al Ghul

02-01-2007, 15:56

Clicking behind as attack (from SP experience) can result in two things:
1. the attacking unit gets into marching and thus receives more casualties than when fighting, it's not killing any enemies during that time
2. the attacking unit is able to push back and rout the enemy

It seems Paolai is describing a third possibility which I haven't been able to reproduce yet. Paolai, you are saying it works with all units, right?

Paolai

02-01-2007, 16:29

yes. I think depends on the charge animation.

Puzz3D

02-01-2007, 16:41

yea its pretty clear now that cav are not getting tangled up. i mean if they hit the front of the unit and then retreated to regoup is one thing but when they are completely entangled in a melee and can run out of it in any direction without recieving significant casualties is proof that cav mechanics need to be addressed.
I was wondering about that. In MTW/VI you could disengage, but you would suffer substantial casualties doing it. Ability to disengage was introduced in MTW, and it made cavalry more dangerous even with the losses they suffered doing it. If cavalry can disengage without losses it would make them almost immune to being intercepted by infantry.

TosaInu

02-01-2007, 18:52

if swords charge pikes frontally swords "loose" I mean they take more damages (in money) than the pikes. If instead you click behind the pikes take more damages (in money) than the swords.

Thank you Paolai. That's clear then: a coding oversight/shortcut. That root should be fixed.

pike master

02-01-2007, 20:01

i think a lot of multiplayers noticed this when they watched the ai do it.

i have watched the ai exploit the bugs as crazy as it sounds. which is why the schiltrom actually holds out as long as it isnt charged is becuase you cant squeeze anything else in there.

ive watched mongols push their way past all my pikes in a bridge assault or siege assault by doing it. i have watched ai cavalry walk through a stake obstacle so it wouldnt get destroyed so it could attack you on the other side.

i think a lot of people have found this stuff out just playing single player. i selected an infantry unit behind another a while back and although the charge lost its impetous before it hit the target formation. the one in front was totally demolished without my cav even lowering their lances.

its sad

Fenix7

02-01-2007, 21:41

I assume we all agree (even those who were speaking in favour of spear/pike units) that we have a ''spear/pike bug'' issue.

ps. I still use one or two units of cheap spears or pikes so that my front line has few more additional men who will hold the line. And about pesants. I'm using them frequently in 1v1 matches. v1 and w1 upgread and they seems to hold forever. With this I can use rest of the money for strong sword and cavalry units. However 2nd patch is going to change all this so this is only temporary solution.

pike master

02-02-2007, 02:44

i would be most interested in ca producing an elite peasant unit with a longer pitchfork and heavy armor. what shall we call this powerful juggernaut of a fighting demon.

by adding a longer weapon and heavier armor the peasant would be transformed into the toughest unit in the game.

then again just let em keep the pitchfork but give them loads of advanced plate.maybe there is a mod in singleplayer where you can work with modding peasants that could be a quick fix until the next patch.

i can see it now modding peasants into german berserkers from rome with pitchforks in advanced plate tossing horses with the pitchforks like a bale of hay. :| seriously

ElmarkOFear

02-02-2007, 06:52

Paoli: That sounds very similar to the old STW problem where an enemy would sneak a cheap unit behind your army -- normally cav archers after they had shot their arrows -- and rout them through your troop's flanks, getting a lot of cheap kills in the process and sometimes being able to recover before routing off the map. Except this is in reverse. They can CHARGE through units without taking much damage, yet killing a lot of troops.

I also wonder if the enemy unit (after using the click behind) gets a rear flanking bonus once passing through yours. I would imagine they do, which would also explain why these units normally rout on what seems to be initial contact, but may be the ole rear flanking penalty being given to the enemy unit as it passes through yours.

Paolai

02-02-2007, 10:12

no, not exacltly what happened in STW. The problem here is different imho. The unit cannot go through the enemy one (not the first that ingage just the second one can go through the enemy unit), it is just a problem of charge. To charge and to have the bonus charge you have to click from a certain distance on the unit you want to attack. There are units like pikes, that I think have a counter charge bonus, and to have this bonus they have to be under charge. If you click behind the pike with a cav for example, the cav does not charge, at least there is not the charge animation, and the pike does not have the counter charge bonus and go directly in melee.

You can go through the unit cliking behind, only if the enemy unit is already enaging with another of your unit, but you take some looses.

The right way to attack a pike with cav is:

click behind, run, when in contact click on the pike unit.

ElmarkOFear

02-02-2007, 11:28

Thnx for the explanation. :)

pike master

02-02-2007, 16:45

its a mess right now

Fenix7

02-02-2007, 16:59

its a mess right now

I belive you. We are not the only one reading this forums, but sometimes this is the only way that with annoucment and explanation of bugs (despite possibility that players might going to use this) others became aware of them even if they were denying the exsisting bug in the start. imho

The bad side of this would be that if people would not be aware of this, there would be only few who would be ''using'' those bugs for their benefit and others would be lossing their matches without any clue why. This would not be fair either or would be?

In start of this post almost no one trusted to Paolai (Die Hard and Luc were also mentioning this bug problem if I'm not mistaken) when he mentioned this issue regarding cavalry charges.

x-dANGEr

02-02-2007, 20:33

Paolai

02-02-2007, 23:22

let me try to explain in in another way then. To force a pike in formation to use thier swords is to force them to fight in melee. The way to force a pike to fight in melee when in formation using for example a cav unit is:

click behind, run, when in contact click on the pike unit.

Is it better now? ~:)

ElmarkOFear

02-03-2007, 06:31

I was able to duplicate what you stated with your first explanation Paoli. :) I never watched the animations before, until I heard they were now a a part of the actual battle mechanics. CA has made correcting bugs even more difficult for themselves, since now to change something, it takes redoing several animations rather than changing a stat or line of code. SIGH The hazards of 3-D gaming.

Paolai

02-03-2007, 11:26

well CA could give an higher bonus in melee to pikes vs cavs and it could be a step frw.

x-dANGEr

02-03-2007, 12:03

Yeap, better, Paolai. Though, I only said that just to tell you why the pikes lose in a melee.. Your way, it sounded like a total bug. I mean, if your cavalry unit just walk at the tips of the pikes, wouldn't it get annihilated? I guess it would. But when moving in closer, the pikes will start using their swords (At which they suck :P ) and lose..

Maybe you could test removing the secondary weapon and see where does that leave you.

About the charge bonus.. I think it is correct this way. At least, theoretically.. If you move to a bunch of spears, you're less likely to have one of them penetrate your armor and kill you in process. Different than "charging" into them, at which it is your body that goes in them. I mean.. Imagine you wear some heavy armor, and run to a pike (Not so fast not so slow), will it just go through you? I don't think so. Though.. Fall on it and it probably will.

TosaInu

02-03-2007, 12:04

CA has made correcting bugs even more difficult for themselves, since now to change something, it takes redoing several animations rather than changing a stat or line of code. SIGH The hazards of 3-D gaming.

Agree, RTW skeleton animations dictated the (correct) speed of units. While it should be the other way around: the speed of a unit dictates the behaviour of the skeleton. There might be some performance issue.

Fixing this charge pike issue: there are different animations, so it's still a code fix only afaik. Cavalry doesn't only suffer when charging pikes, it also does when it runs into them. Perhaps the collision detection works on the man only? While a pikeman is a man and a 18 feet long shaft in front of him. So the current collision model sees this o while it should be ---o
Cav ->o collision now
Cav ->---o frontal collision
Cav ->o--- backside collision

There is a chance that the pike formation breaks (running horses won't full stop, and organic objects will crush something). There will be knights inside the pikeunit then and it will be some problem for the pike (as it's less easy to wield a long pike than say an offensive anti-cav weapon like a halberd), just as it is now with the method Paolai described. But this is a best scenario for the cav only (a dense pike square isn't easy to break, the cav would not win on his own anyway), and it shouldn't happen after taking heavy losses in the cav first.

This shouldn't require extensive and lagging coding, it's a dynamic and complex interaction between small buildingblocks (already present for the largest part).

How about walking?
What happens if you walk a cav into pikes using click behind?

TosaInu

02-03-2007, 12:16

If you move to a bunch of spears, you're less likely to have one of them penetrate your armor and kill you in process. Different than "charging" into them, at which it is your body that goes in them. I mean.. Imagine you wear some heavy armor, and run to a pike (Not so fast not so slow), will it just go through you? I don't think so. Though.. Fall on it and it probably will.

Tricky x-dANGER, I don't want to test it ~:) It's sharp metal, the knight is part of a heavy object that moves at 10 mph. It's moving slower allowing the knight to dodge and fence perhaps, but it also gives the pikeman more time for a better aim and poke (yariashigaru, the Japanese pikeunits, were trained to do that). Move faster and the knight can't dodge and fence, it will be harder for the pikeman to aim, but even a little hit will pierce through and through again and inflict a huge shock to the body (it doesn't matter anymore where you get hit). What do you want: a spider- or a snakebite?

Paolai

02-03-2007, 12:45

How about walking?
What happens if you walk a cav into pikes using click behind?

walk or run is the same, there is no difference from my experience. The only important thing is that you have to click behind a pike when/if in formation, then when the melee fight starts (contact), click on the pike.

If the pike are not in formation just simply charge them frontally clicking on the unit, and pikes die quite fast like all the other units.

RTKBarrett

02-03-2007, 17:51

walk or run is the same, there is no difference from my experience. The only important thing is that you have to click behind a pike when/if in formation, then when the melee fight starts (contact), click on the pike.

If the pike are not in formation just simply charge them frontally clicking on the unit, and pikes die quite fast like all the other units.

Pikes out of the formation are extremely easy targets... Mounted xbows can easily rout say a flemish/tercio pikeman if it hits a rotating pike or one out of position. But what paolai says about the cav on pike is true... its just ppl dont abuse this particular bug for whatever reason yet.

TosaInu

02-03-2007, 19:54

Pikes out of the formation are extremely easy targets... Mounted xbows can easily rout say a flemish/tercio pikeman if it hits a rotating pike or one out of position.

Can't see how easy it is, but that's fair I think. However, it's not at all possible to move forward in formation while pointing the pikes?

Paolai

02-03-2007, 20:17

yes it is possibile but they are very slow in formation.

x-dANGEr

02-03-2007, 20:57

Tricky x-dANGER, I don't want to test it It's sharp metal, the knight is part of a heavy object that moves at 10 mph. It's moving slower allowing the knight to dodge and fence perhaps, but it also gives the pikeman more time for a better aim and poke (yariashigaru, the Japanese pikeunits, were trained to do that). Move faster and the knight can't dodge and fence, it will be harder for the pikeman to aim, but even a little hit will pierce through and through again and inflict a huge shock to the body (it doesn't matter anymore where you get hit). What do you want: a spider- or a snakebite?

I didn't get the last sentence ("spider, snakebite..").

All I'm saying is that the Pikeman can't have the power to hold such a long pike, aim it, and jab it strong enough to penetrate the armor of the knight. Of course, I'm saying this without any background info except my own limited knowledge about it (That's supported by theories I have from my daily life ~;) ).

Lavos

02-03-2007, 21:03

Just one minor thing to ad to this pike thing.
When pikes start using swords you can make them switch back to pike if you press hold button.
Theres one problem tho, switch from sword to pikes take some time in which unit stop fighting even with swords.

Stig

02-03-2007, 21:40

Play games at Large unit size instead of Normal, that will nerf down cav.
Why?
On Normal:
Cav: 48 a unit
Inf: 60 a unit

On Large:
Cav: 60 a unit
Inf: 90 a unit

So on Normal every cav has to kill 1,2 infantrymen
On Large every cav has to kill 1,5 infantrymen

TosaInu

02-03-2007, 22:39

I didn't get the last sentence ("spider, snakebite..").

Just that I guess there is not a real good situation for the knight when riding into a pikewall. I understand your point about armour penetration, that may be correct. But there may be disadvantages too. So in the end it's just a bad thing to do.

x-dANGEr

02-04-2007, 00:06

Sure it is. But isn't as bad.. That's what am trying to clear. :P

CBR

02-04-2007, 01:57

x-dANGEr

02-04-2007, 10:42

hmm Im pretty sure on normal cav is 40 and inf is 60/75 men while large is 60 for cav and 90/112 for inf.

CBR
What did Stig say..?

CBR

02-04-2007, 14:35

What did Stig say..?
I quoted what he said...

But to clarify, he says that the cav/inf ratio changes by changing unit size but the numbers he use are not correct, so it doesnt matter what unit size one uses. Cav will always be facing sword units that are 1.5 times bigger and spear/pike units that are 1.875 times bigger.

But unit size could still mean something as players generally would be using deeper ranks. That could have an effect against cavalry charges. It was even CA's claim that huge unit sizes gives "tactical extravaganza" I believe it was. At least it would reduce overall kill rates a bit because of deeper ranks.

Unfortunately that cant be used for bigger games because of lag issues.

CBR

TosaInu

02-04-2007, 14:41

Sure it is. But isn't as bad.. That's what am trying to clear. :P

Possible.

Stig

02-04-2007, 14:55

But to clarify, he says that the cav/inf ratio changes by changing unit size but the numbers he use are not correct
Well I'm pretty sure about it, but then could be wrong

And yes if it isn't this cav/inf ratio it's the ranks.
On normal, cav is deployed in 2 ranks (default)
On large, cav is deployed in 3 ranks (default)
Only the first rank does damage.

While on normal, inf is deployed about 5x3
and on large this is 6x3

ie. the same amount of cav has to kill more men

SoxSexSax

02-11-2007, 23:34

3 things:

1) I am astonished that this post has the most views on the forum. I started it only to get a response from the CA developer who said "I will answer questions if they start with 'Can you explain...'"

2) The problem is not so bad since the patch. As I stated, the big problem was how easily cavalry could pull out of melee without taking casualties. Cavalry now take serious casualties when they turn their back to the enemy, negating the issue.

3) HOWEVER, normal spearmen are still too weak to use in MP. The rock-paper-scissors mechanic that has been basically the cornerstone of the series does not appear to be working (imo), as the best counter for cavalry seems very much to be cavalry of your own.

pike master

02-12-2007, 12:54

i used to be kinda hard on the spearmen needing more staying power but after seeing cav spam armies im kinda leaning toward stronger spears.

its no fun when the easiest troop build overall is a cav army.

buujin

02-15-2007, 11:15

Cav charge is far too strong.

Even in low florrin games (around 6k florrins ) taking just 4-6 units of heavy cav can wipe out a much bigger balanced army of lower grade troops.

Any infantry type gets totally creamed on first contact by the charge unless fully braced and facing the cav head on. This clearly can be difficult to prepare since cav has greater manouverability.

RTKBarrett

02-16-2007, 23:30

Another important issue is the shield bug for cavalry, i hope that CA address this and that when they are done they make sure the likes of teutonic knights/khan Guard dnt become even stronger and are actually balanced more!

Cav focussed builds have become very popular in m2tw multiplayer and for gd reason.. they are very effective. Unit costings need serious adjustments and units such as foot archers that have proved ineffective thus far need to be changed completely. Whether this is by increased rate of fire/damage or reduction in price doesnt matter... but something is required to make the game reasonable once more in mp.