Dutch Elections [Archive]

Stig

11-28-2006, 00:31

Well everyone won, atleast that how everyone looks at it.

The Christians are biggest again: 41 and Labour lost (they're down to 32 (or something)), but they consider it a victory as the Christians lost 3 seats. The Socialist now have 26 (but the last 2 parties that once had 26 seats are now back to 3 and 0 (within 12 and 4 years)). The Liberals lost 6 and are down to 22. The Rascists come in at 9 seats, while the Green Party dropped to 7. The Animal Party comes in with 2 and they are a laugh (but that's my opinion). The so called Libertines lost 3 and are at 3. The Other Christians now have 6 and the Christian Fundamentalists allways have 2.

clear?

InsaneApache

11-28-2006, 00:51

Any room for a proper political party in that lot? :inquisitive:

Mithrandir

11-28-2006, 00:53

not proper, so the Dutch will probably have elections in a year or so again.

Aenlic

11-28-2006, 01:30

I'm almost afraid to ask, but...

Politically speaking, what is an Animal Party? Do they dress up in animal costumes and do the freaky furry thing I saw on an episode of CSI?

InsaneApache

11-28-2006, 01:35

Shhhh! ....it's the Nederlands...always best not to ask......:stooge_larry:

Adrian II

11-28-2006, 01:41

Politically speaking, what is an Animal Party?Politically speaking, an Animal Party is a bunch of spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twits who believe sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat.

And I'm mincing my words here. :brood:

Kralizec

11-28-2006, 01:48

A short summary, I left out most parties that didn't make it. These are preliminary results.

PvdA (labour): lost badly, now at 32 seats, used to have 42. Nobody lost as many seats as them. Their #1 on the list, Wouter Bos has a reputation of being a flip-flopper. A lot of their old voters now chose SP (see below) instead.

CDA (Christian Democrats, centre-right): lost slightly, now at 41 (44 last election). Is the biggest party in the government, #1 on the list is our PM, JP Balkenende. He lacked popularity at first, but nowadays many view him as solid and reliable.

VVD (liberal, in the European sense of the word): also lost, now at 22 seats while they had 28 before.
Something odd about them: they had in-party elections a couple of months ago to determine who would be their #1 figure in the elections, a guy named Mark Rutte won by a small margin. His main competitor was Rita Verdonk, who was/is a polarizing figure who's much more popular with right wing voters. It turns out that last week she, the #2 on the list, actually got more votes then the #1, Rutte. There's now some discussion wether or not Rutte should step down.

SP (socialists): the greatest winner of this election, around 26 seats (9 last election). They seemingly ate away a lot of votes from disgruntled former PvdA voters, and also gained votes because their party is now more palatable to the mainstream then in previous elections.

PVV (literally: Party for Freedom. Right wing, conservative in some respects): a new party, and they're the other great winner of this election with 9 seats. The leader, Geert Wilders, used to be a MP for VVD till he got booted for making anti-islamic statements that didn't fit well with the rest of the party. After a living as a hermit for a while (due to death threats), he created his own party. The two points that his party is based on: no more immigration, lower taxes. The candidates he gathered have no experience to speak of and at least one of them, the #2, is a blithering idiot (see video if you understand dutch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_BxS9gikU))

Groenlinks (Green leftist): 7 seats (one less then earlier) Not much to say about this one.

D66 (liberal in the European sense of the word, unlike the VVD they're relatively leftist): 3 seats (6 in previous election) Used to be part of Balkenende's cabinet, time wich they generally spent pissing away their credibility. I'm surprised they managed to get 3 seats still.

Christenunie (christians, duh): 6 seats, 3 in the former election. Generally they have leftist views, except when it comes to abortion, gay marriage and euthanesia. Most people agree they ran an excellent campaign.

SGP (christians, Conservative): 2 seats, just like last time. They're very conservative on pretty much everything (party membership is limited to males), and they have a loyal but very small voting base.

PvdD (literally: Party for the Animals): a one-issue party, the one issue being animal welfare. Actually managed to get two seats...

Fortuyn (right wing, conservative in some respects: didn't get any seats. I mention them because they used to have 8 (and once not less then 26)
Their former voting base finally lost all trust in them, and voted PvdV (Wilders) instead.

Aenlic

11-28-2006, 02:03

Thanks for that wonderful clarification, Kralizec.

So, let me get this straight. You have a party whose sole platform is animal rights and they actually managed to get 2 seats? I thought we had it bad here in the US. :dizzy2:

Kralizec

11-28-2006, 02:18

Well, we have a system of proportional representation, resulting in a large variety of parties, and on occasional a crazy one makes it into parliament. In this case they got 2 seats out of a total of 150. Almost a non-issue.

In comparison, the new US congress will consist of roughly 232 democrats and about 199 republicans ~;)

I forgot to mention, the numbers of seats I mentioned in my post are only the preliminary results.

Aenlic

11-28-2006, 03:13

I prefer a proportional system. It would solve the main problem we have in the U.S., the fact that you can't fit a rhetorical razor blade between the two parties' positions except during election season. They might as well call themselves Republocrats or Demopublicans or something.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-28-2006, 04:17

Yeah, but on the down side you can end up hamstrung like the Knesset. I still prefer "first past the post" to that. Maybe that multiple choice thingee that Pappy is always on about would be better.

Don Corleone

11-28-2006, 04:25

CBR

11-28-2006, 05:39

Yeah, but on the down side you can end up hamstrung like the Knesset.
One could use a higher threshold. In Israel its 2% (and earlier 1%) Plus Israel might not be the best example of the proportional system, as its a new country born out of several wars and a near continous conflict and with jewish immigrants from different cultures. A more settled country would perhaps produce a more stabile situation.

CBR

Stig

11-28-2006, 08:42

Can one of my Dutch amigos explain the difference between VVd and Christian Democrat?
ok

CDA (Christians)
VVD (Liberals)
PVDA (Labour)
SP (Socialists, almost communists)
GroenLinks (the Green party)
PVV (Rascists)
D66 (So called Libertines)
CU (Christians, a bit more conservative then CDA)
SGP (Christian fundamentalists)
PvdD (Animal party, idiots, think animals should have rights, want to ban all sorts of farming which make the food cheap)

Some problems:
You need to have 76 seats or more to get a goverment.
Traditionally these can work:
CDA-VVD
CDA-PVDA
PVDA-VVD
but all don't make the 76
left is out of the order:
PVDA-SP-GroenLinks, not 76
right is out of the order to, because no-one wants the PVV to co-operate, as they're clear rascists.

Fragony

11-28-2006, 09:46

Ahum! PVV is not a racist party, they just don't think islam is the greatest thing that ever happened to us.

Neither do I :thumbsdown:

(before anyone asks, no I didn't vote for them)

edit, MUHA my mother voted for the animal-party, I still love her but geez.

Their leader is cute though,

http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00055/marianne_thieme_55986a.jpg

Big King Sanctaphrax

11-28-2006, 10:56

Wow, I would actually hit that. Are you sure she's a politician?

Fragony

11-28-2006, 11:14

Wow, I would actually hit that. Are you sure she's a politician?

Thanks to people like my mother she is now :beam:

Don't really mind them that much, less votes for Femke Halseme of the greens (who is also pretty cute)

http://www.sterrenstek.nl/_portretten/Femke%20Halsema-portret.jpg

I actually wouldn't mind paying extra for honest meat where animals are treated respectfully. I allready do buy good meat so no loss here. But they also want to ban fishing, never!

Stig

11-28-2006, 11:54

Ahum! PVV is not a racist party, they just don't think islam is the greatest thing that ever happened to us.

Well if you say that:
-no more muslims should be allowed in Holland because they are muslims, are you racist?
-Turkey shouldn't be allowed to join the EU, because it's a muslim country, are you racist?
-all muslims are bad, are you racist?

need I continue?

Anyway I agree, Marianne Thieme does look far better then Rita Verdonk:
http://www.ild.org.pe/images/recognition/thatcher.jpg

erhh sorry, I meant Rita Verdonk:
http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/archive/00045/Zelfs_tegenstanders_45568a.jpeg~D

Fragony

11-28-2006, 12:05

Well if you say that:
-no more muslims should be allowed in Holland because they are muslims, are you racist?

nope, just smart, enough already.

-Turkey shouldn't be allowed to join the EU, because it's a muslim country, are you racist?

nope, just realistic.

-all muslims are bad, are you racist?

yes, but he never said that. He says dutch culture is superior to the culture of the islamic countries, and I agree. How could I not given the state of these countries.

Stig

11-28-2006, 12:10

*mumbles*
racist

Fragony

11-28-2006, 12:11

*mumbles*
racist

~;)

Stig

11-28-2006, 12:15

hey voted D66 :bounce:

Fragony

11-28-2006, 12:30

The biggest joke ever, although I have to admit that Kaya, incidently, is pretty cute.

http://www.d66.nl/9235000/p/024/02453m.jpg

econ21

11-28-2006, 12:44

...the animal-party, ...Their leader is cute though...

...Femke Halseme of the greens (who is also pretty cute) ...

...Kaya, incidently, is pretty cute...

I am starting to detect a theme here.

I know power is supposed to be an aphrodisiac but this is getting ridiculous. :laugh4:

Stig

11-28-2006, 12:49

As I said the real power is here, and it isn't cute:
http://www.ild.org.pe/images/recognition/thatcher.jpg
http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/archive/00045/Zelfs_tegenstanders_45568a.jpeg
http://www.millenniumcampaign.org/atf/cf/%7BD15FF017-0467-419B-823E-D6659E0CCD39%7D/merkel.jpg
http://clinton.senate.gov/images/home/topmast/topmast_hillary.jpg

Fragony

11-28-2006, 12:56

Verdonk ain't that ugly, pretty attractive for her age.

http://lilianmarijnissen.sp.nl/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/150406%20verdonk.jpg

Do not mess with this woman, she bites :yes:

Kralizec

11-28-2006, 16:06

Can one of my Dutch amigos explain the difference between VVd and Christian Democrat? I don't understand the differnce between being slightly right of center and pro-free market policies. Are there aspects to European liberalism of which I am unaware?

VVD follows classical liberalism, while the CDA is generally viewed as centrist. In almost all post-war elections*, the CDA and its predecessors became part of the cabinet. They either formed a cabinet with the VVD, or the PvdA (labour)
They're not completely indifferent about their partners though: the PvdA participated in 10 post-war cabinets, the VVD in 16, while the PvdA almost always managed to get more seats.
I chose centre-right as their description because their current leader, Balkenende, seems a tad more conservative then most of his predecessors, and he openly declares his preference for the VVD over the PvdA.

Forming a coalition is going to be extremely difficult now, because there are no 2 parties that can form a majority together in parliament. I don't like it, but I think the most likely outcome is a cabinet of CDA-PvdA-SP

*(the only exception to this is the so-called Purple cabinets, 1994-2002. They were coalitions between PvdA (red), VVD (blue, hence "Purple") and the D66. This were the only cabinets that didn't have christian democrats in them, and the only cabinets where the PvdA and the VVD were partners.)

Adrian II

11-28-2006, 16:43

Wow, I would actually hit that. Are you sure she's a politician?No. She is a spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twit who believes sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat.
:wall:

Big King Sanctaphrax

11-28-2006, 16:45

Hey, I didn't say I wanted to marry her. ~;)

Vladimir

11-28-2006, 17:04

No. She is a spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twit who believes sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat.
:wall:

That's how it tends to be...To quote Brian (the dog): Why are the pretty ones always so dumb?

Kralizec

11-28-2006, 17:16

Fragony: Medy van der Laan was pas een MILF. Haar zal ik nog missen :laugh4:

EDIT: picture

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/images/assets/11219087

Fragony

11-28-2006, 17:31

Fragony: Medy van der Laan was pas een MILF. Haar zal ik nog missen :laugh4:

EDIT: picture

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/images/assets/11219087

MILF, heimelijk stijlloos huh :beam:

Don Corleone

11-28-2006, 17:51

VVD follows classical liberalism, while the CDA is generally viewed as centrist. In almost all post-war elections*, the CDA and its predecessors became part of the cabinet. They either formed a cabinet with the VVD, or the PvdA (labour)
They're not completely indifferent about their partners though: the PvdA participated in 10 post-war cabinets, the VVD in 16, while the PvdA almost always managed to get more seats.
I chose centre-right as their description because their current leader, Balkenende, seems a tad more conservative then most of his predecessors, and he openly declares his preference for the VVD over the PvdA.

:bow: I am grateful for the answer. So, Pvda and VVd are economically based parties, left and right, respectively. The Christian Democrats theoretically are moderate, but in reality tilt a little towards the right? Then to the left of Pvda you have Socialists, then Communists. Most of the rest of your parties are more politically based (issues, not economy)? Do I have the gist of it?

While I know our 2 party system drives the rest of you all nuts, could you imagine just how crazy it would have been in Florida in 2000 if you had 7 people, not 2, all claiming they had won? :dizzy2: Americans get too angry and upset about politics to ever employ a parlimentarian system. We'd kill each other. :duel:

Big King Sanctaphrax

11-28-2006, 18:15

MILF, heimelijk stijlloos huh

Heh, it's good to know some acronyms cross cultural and linguistic boundaries.

Ronin

11-28-2006, 18:29

damn.....you guys have some hot politicians....

legalized prostitution, legalized pot....hot politicians....the reasons to move there keep growing.

Stig

11-28-2006, 19:12

@Don
This is the political spectrum in Holland:
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Other/kies.jpg

on the x-axis, from left to right, Left Wing - Right Wing
on the y-axis, from top to bottom, Progressive - Conservative

Vladimir

11-28-2006, 19:46

@Don

on the x-axis, from left to right, Left Wing - Right Wing
on the y-axis, from top to bottom, Progressive - Conservative

Excellent, thank you. :2thumbsup:

Big King Sanctaphrax

11-28-2006, 19:57

D66 seem like my kind of party, just from looking at the graph.

Stig

11-28-2006, 20:33

D66 is kinda the party where students vote for, they do loads for education.
Mind you imo PVV should be moved a bit more to the right and SP should be moved more to the left, but apart from that it's a good chart imo

TosaInu

11-28-2006, 23:21

Formation may take a while.

Stig

11-28-2006, 23:45

Formation may take a while.
mmm sarcasm ~D

Adrian II

11-29-2006, 00:18

Legalized prostitution, legalized pot....hot politicians....the reasons to move there keep growing.Welcome! But then you wouldn't be a spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twit who believes sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat, would you?

Nah.

'Course not.

Or would you? :stare:

Seamus Fermanagh

11-29-2006, 02:52

Their leader is cute though,

http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00055/marianne_thieme_55986a.jpg

I guess all that charm is pretty much wasted on her constituency, no? Literally "pearls before swine."

BKS, you may not want to "hit that" so readily if you got a look at other potential partners....though I could be wrong and there may be no "Catherine the Great" component to this at all.

Crazed Rabbit

11-29-2006, 03:01

Politically speaking, an Animal Party is a bunch of spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twits who believe sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat.

And I'm mincing my words here.

So, similar to PETA, eh? (Any english rundown of what they believe, if only to amuse myself?)

CR

Ronin

11-29-2006, 10:28

Welcome! But then you wouldn't be a spoilt, incoherent, superstitious upper-class twit who believes sheep, pets and fish are the new proletariat, would you?

Nah.

'Course not.

Or would you? :stare:

I´m not spoilt, nor incoherent, nor supersticious......and sheep and fish taste good....

I have been known to be a bit of a twit from time to time tough :laugh4:

KukriKhan

11-29-2006, 15:10

Formation may take a while.

So: civil servants (beaureaucrats) run the show until the elected elite sort out who is in charge?

What about emergencies (invasions, epidemics, terror-boomsky attacks, etc)? Are the various departments empowered to act on their own, in such circumstance?

Stig

11-29-2006, 15:12

Aye till we have a new prime-minister and ministers and stuff, the old ones still do their jobs.

Vladimir

11-29-2006, 16:14

What about emergencies (invasions, epidemics, terror-boomsky attacks, etc)? Are the various departments empowered to act on their own, in such circumstance?

We still talking about Holland here? :inquisitive:

Stig

11-29-2006, 16:39

Well we do have the International Court you know, and the Yanks won't be happy if their countrymen have to stand trail there. :bounce:

Adrian II

11-29-2006, 21:27

What about emergencies (invasions, epidemics, terror-boomsky attacks, etc)? Are the various departments empowered to act on their own, in such circumstance?We send in the Animal Party.

Adrian II

11-29-2006, 23:02

Special delivery for the Rabbit!

So, similar to PETA, eh? (Any english rundown of what they believe, if only to amuse myself?)From their English party programme (http://www.partijvoordedieren.nl/content/view/129):

The Party for the Animals’ platform is built around the belief that both animals and humans are living creatures with emotions and a conscience and therefore, animals have the right to be treated with respect by humans.Another gem:
The party believes the extent to which a human society is ‘civilised’ can be measured by the way in which its members treat other living creatures and the natural environment in general.There goes Texas...

Finally, you (and, I am sure, some of our Dutch friends who don't know this yet) are going to love this one.

The number two on the Animal Party list and party bureau head, Ms Esther Ouwehand, recently accepted an award from the The Supreme Master Ching Hai International Association.

The what? I hear you say.

The Supreme Master Ching Hai is really a Taiwanese madam by the name of Suma Ching Hai (born May 12, 1950) who claims to be an incarnation of God, the Buddha and Avalokitesvara. Suma Ching Hai is a spiritual teacher of the Quan Yin Method. Quan Yin is a style of tax evasion meditation she claims was used by Buddha and Jesus. Through this racket system of meditation, Ching Hai professes to have achieved the fifth level of meditation herself. This makes her a Fith Level Hoaxmeister Master of Quan Yin Enlightenment.

Exhibit A:

https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/429/sumachinghaixs4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Enlightenment Personified

Exhibit B:

Shining World Leadership Award

A Political Party Committed to the Welfare of Our Animal Friends

By brother-initiate Roy Mannaart, Amsterdam, The Netherlands,
and sister-initiate Katelijne Rothschild, Surrey, UK (Originally in English)

On June 1, Golden Year 3 (2006), representatives of The Supreme
Master Ching Hai International Association presented the Shining World
Leadership Award to the Partij voor de Dieren (Party for the Animals) in
Amsterdam, the Netherlands. The award was accepted by Ms. Esther
Ouwehand, Director of the Amsterdam Bureau office. Instead of taking place
indoors, the event was held in the Vondel Park, a lovely and fitting reminder
that all animals should be able to enjoy the beauty and peace provided by nature.

Linky (http://godsdirectcontact.us/sm21/eNews/enews170/e170.htm#N22)

Seamus Fermanagh

11-30-2006, 02:36

I've been despairing about politics in the USA for years....thanks for the pick me up.:laugh4: That grass AIN'T greener (though the entertainment factor must be a blast).

Fragony

11-30-2006, 10:51

The party believes the extent to which a human society is ‘civilised’ can be measured by the way in which its members treat other living creatures and the natural environment in general.

Aw, it's a noble point of view, and Frag loves animals. As long as they don't go completily bonkers I am fine with having them around. There are some things that could easily be done, castrating boars without painkillers isn't necesary, forbidden by law in Norway I believe. If they can make that happen glory to them. Better to have them debating then having their militants intimidate farmers anyway.

Adrian II

11-30-2006, 13:15

Better to have them debating then having their militants intimidate farmers anyway.You may have a point there. Though the aggressive animal rights activists belong to the loony left, whereas the Animal Party are smack in the middle. The party is socially and fiscally conservative and will not divert a lot of loony greens from their chosen path of liberating oppressed canaries, emancipating goldfish and murdering maverick politicians.

Louis VI the Fat

11-30-2006, 14:17

http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00055/marianne_thieme_55986a.jpg

BKS, you may not want to "hit that" so readily if you got a look at other potential partners....I think the prospect of 'other potential partners' may be part of the attraction for BKS here. You know, what with our Welsh friend and her in full agreement that sheep and other assorted animals have feelings and need 'love' too...

Imagine the hot threesomes they could have when visiting pet farms...

:hide:

KukriKhan

11-30-2006, 14:19

But their slate is all humans. No horses or turtles running for office.

A mechanical question(s): How were votes recorded and counted? Do you use machines or cards or paper? We spent several million dolars over the past 6 years to improve vote accountability, without much progress.

Are you confident that your vote counted?

Lastly: what kind of turnout did you have (% of eligible voters actually going to the polls)?

Fragony

11-30-2006, 15:12

Both, not everybody is too happy about the machines as they are(were) pretty easy to hack. As for my vote, well now it's time to form the coalition, and it seems like it will become a centre-leftist one, so hopefully next year we have new elections. This is usually the time where everybody forgets they ever had any differences, and when there still are differences we have 4 years of therapeutic sessions where everybody gets to say how they really feel about it. I wanted a coalition between the CDA/CU/VVD/PVDV, a nice centre-right coalition but the chances of that happening is pretty slim.

Adrian II

11-30-2006, 16:08

I think the prospect of 'other potential partners' may be part of the attraction for BKS here. You know, what with our Welsh friend and her in full agreement that sheep and other assorted animals have feelings and need 'love' too...

Imagine the hot threesomes they could have when visiting pet farms...

:hide:I can certainly envisage the two of them reaching the Fifth Level of Enlightenment in a Welsh barn.
Followed by the inevitable class-action suit from the sheep. :oops:

Kralizec

11-30-2006, 22:36

Awesomeness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3HW65e9eHg)

Mithrandir

11-30-2006, 22:38

Stig

11-30-2006, 22:45

not malfunctioned, if I would make a device that would work on the same frequency as the machine I could alter votes, furthermore the people that see to it that all goes according to plan can see what I voted, they can then tell some political leader that he's doing bad, etc etc

Adrian II

12-01-2006, 00:37

Total turnout was 80,1% Turnout among Dutchmen who had registered for Internet voting was 92%

Geoffrey S

12-01-2006, 08:38

D66 seem like my kind of party, just from looking at the graph.
They do very little and tend to let their policies be dominated by larger parties. Without real identity, it wouldn't get my vote.

Whatever my views on PvdD, I am interested to see how this one issue party will cause politicians in other parties to vote on this one issue; a number share their views as token environmentalist of a larger party, will they go with their own group or vote based on their principles?

KukriKhan

12-01-2006, 14:39

Total turnout was 80,1% Turnout among Dutchmen who had registered for Internet voting was 92%

We have trouble mustering even half that percentage. For all the bluster, strutting & fretting beforehand, more than half my fellow Yanks can't be bothered to actually vote. Maybe we should start offering door-prizes or free pizza at the polls.

Thanks, AdrianII and Mithrandir... somehow, I just knew the answer would be depressing.

Did that Internet Voting thing work out to be quite secure?

Adrian II

12-01-2006, 15:45

We have trouble mustering even half that percentage.Oh, stop being depressed. The Dutch simply have dozens more idiots whom you can vote for. Seen in that light, U.S. turnout is surpirsingly high.

Mithrandir

12-01-2006, 21:43

I've always wondered about the 2 party system.
-Are there really just 2 political parties for which you can vote ?
-Does it work ?
-Don't people want to have more choice than just 2 opposites ?
-Could you start your own party should you have the funding ?
-Do the the newspaper deliveryboys actually throw newspapers on the doorstep ?

Vladimir

12-01-2006, 21:47

Oh darn. I saw that Mithrandir had posted and I was hoping that a millennia old blood feud had been revived and he was here to administer a camel toe kick to the rear. ~:mecry:

Kralizec

12-01-2006, 21:58

-Are there really just 2 political parties for which you can vote ?

Not in the US at least.
However, suppose an independent, say a libertarian runs in a certain state. Generally about 60% of the state usually votes republican, the rest democrat. A considerable part of republican voters would actually prefer the libertarian candidate, but if he draws half of the votes, the result would be: 30% libertarian, 30% republican, 40% democrat. As a result the democrat candidate wins. Because of this dilemma independent candidates are rarely elected but can accomplish that a candidate is elected who isn't the preferred candidate for most people.
Most people realise this and only vote for democrats/republicans, depending on who they see as the lesser evil. This attitude, while rational preserves the problem.

-Does it work ?

Personal preference, I suppose. I prefer to have variety in my choices.

-Don't people want to have more choice than just 2 opposites ?

I'm sure most Americans do, if this forum is any indication :smash:

-Could you start your own party should you have the funding ?

Yes, but one of the two main parties (or both) will sometimes try to find some legal excuse to keep you of the state ballot. And fundraising can be difficult.

Anyway, where are you from Mithrandir?

drone

12-01-2006, 22:02

I've always wondered about the 2 party system.
-Are there really just 2 political parties for which you can vote ?No, there are several parties, but usually the 2 main ones are the only ones that can consistently get candidates on ballots throughout the country.

-Does it work ?Meh.

-Don't people want to have more choice than just 2 opposites ?You would think. A Centrist party would clean up, but that would be boring.

-Could you start your own party should you have the funding ?Not sure about the process, but pretty much. Ask Ross Perot.

-Do the the newspaper deliveryboys actually throw newspapers on the doorstep ?They try supposedly, but usually they aim for the windows.

KukriKhan

12-02-2006, 06:16

Not in the US at least.
However, suppose an independent, say a libertarian runs in a certain state. Generally about 60% of the state usually votes republican, the rest democrat. A considerable part of republican voters would actually prefer the libertarian candidate, but if he draws half of the votes, the result would be: 30% libertarian, 30% republican, 40% democrat. As a result the democrat candidate wins. Because of this dilemma independent candidates are rarely elected but can accomplish that a candidate is elected who isn't the preferred candidate for most people.
Most people realise this and only vote for democrats/republicans, depending on who they see as the lesser evil.

THE most succinct explanation I've ever seen.

Goes to show ya': outside eyes see the clearest. I've been a resident/citizen/voter of 32 US (out of 50) states. I've never seen a ballot with only 2 parties presented. BUT, what Kralizec said above ^^ applies heavily.

I never have voted Repub or Demo (so far), preferring to send a message to whoever the winner is ("go left" or "go right" from your stated position). Some say I've wasted my vote, denying a mandate to the winner. In my tiny little way, I rather think I serve the role of the guy whispering into Ceasar's ear: "Remember, you are man, not god."

Fragony

12-02-2006, 14:00

I've always wondered about the 2 party system.

Can't shake the feeling that the VVD is creating a mini-america within their party, the open discussion about the course that should be taken, the leadership issue, sounds like a great strategy to become very big.

Crazed Rabbit

12-02-2006, 18:01

Thanks for the post, Adrian.

I read a bit of their site, and though the idea that animals have a conscience (Should I eat the bird's egg? Would it be right to consume for my own survival all the mother bird's hard work?) is odd, I found this interesting:

This means that regardless of whether they are in the wild or are kept in farms or homes, animals should be able to live according to their own nature and not have their well-being affected by humans without reasonable or necessary reason.

If they accept animals in farms and as pets, they are a heckuva lot more reasonable than PETA.

I've always wondered about the 2 party system.
-Are there really just 2 political parties for which you can vote ?
No, there are many small parties that run each year, but rarely do they affect the election. You can write in a vote for whomever you please.

-Does it work ?
Seems to. What are we missing, after all? A handful of fringe people in congress from weird parties?

-Don't people want to have more choice than just 2 opposites ?
Yes- well most wouldn't mind, I think, but as previously explained its often a lesser of two evils thing.

-Could you start your own party should you have the funding ?
Sure. Billionare Ross Perot ran in 1992 and 1996 for President and got 19% of the vote one time (And something similar the other)- best third party performance since Teddy Roosevelt.

-Do the the newspaper deliveryboys actually throw newspapers on the doorstep ?
That's not for you to know. ~:mad
~;p

Crazed Rabbit

Fragony

12-02-2006, 18:12

Sure. Billionare Ross Perot ran in 1992 and 1996 for President and got 19% of the vote one time (And something similar the other)- best third party performance since Teddy Roosevelt.

Worked for his company, any takers for classified info of the JSF? :beam:

Stig

12-02-2006, 18:18

Only problem with the 2 party system imo is the little choice.
I don't like Bush, so I have to vote Kerry, ok he was a good one (and so was Gore) but still what if I don't like those.
imo you should have the choice, it's irritating if you have to live in a country with a goverment you can't change, because all options are bad

Fragony

12-02-2006, 18:32

Kralizec

12-02-2006, 18:56

I am all for it, it's a more direct form of democracy imho. The politics can be devided into a left- and a rightwing, and if you give people a more direct way of shaping how both parties respectivily are represented, the course of the left or right, then it is more bang for your buck then our system where the actual course is decided upon afterwards.

Your problem seems to be that we can't directly influence what our executive looks like, as we don't vote for coalitions. Having only two parties would solve that, because usually one side would have a fairly safe majority. However I think that a two party system is going to cause more problems then it would solve.

One problem would be that these two parties would essentially have a duopoly on all politics, and each party would have a monopoly on right or left. If the party puts a certain candidate on the ballot who's absolutely crappy and only got there because of the party's "old boys network", you have no alternative except voting for the other party (wich you don't like at all) or not voting at all.
And right/left is a very flawed way of dividing politics in different camps anyway.

Fragony

12-02-2006, 19:08

Not that flawed really, top down or the other way around, it can pretty much be devided in such a way. If there was a more direct way of shaping both sides, then it would be a better representation of how much popular support a certain course gets (I think VVD is making this an actual strategy given the recent events). How big is the difference between the several leftwing party's really, all that counts now are the superficial differences. Same is true for the right, we have competition instead of the much more usefull coorperation.

Kralizec

12-02-2006, 19:31

I disagree. Competion within the spheres of left or right can be a very good thing. It keeps parties sharp and prevents them from becoming complacent, or voters will find something else to vote on as there are always alternatives. Bos has been a rather mediocre leader for the PvdA, and what happens? Disgruntled voters turn to the SP instead.

I'm suddenly reminded of Italy. While Italian politics is mostly comedy, they do have an interesting system: there is a multitude of parties, but they're clearly divided in leftwing and rightwing alliances.

Fragony

12-02-2006, 19:44

That is excactly why it is good, now we have a competition based on political party's instead of a competition between the very basics they stand for. Now we have people that vote strategically, just to keep another party out of office we vote for the alternative that is closest at hand. If we devided it in two sides, and let people vote on who gets to represent each side, then we would avoid this and would be better represented. The SP and the PVDA are both leftist party's, yet they emphasise the differences they have instead of emphasising what they agree on, they are different institutions after, and because they exist they need to justify existing.