Templars Guild [Archive]

giskard

12-01-2006, 08:06

Hi all.

Id like to run some stuff past you, im looking for people who can shoot this theory down.

I got the Templars Guild lvl1 and lvl2 as Scotland by simply conquering england and being really friendly to the pope. In previous games I got the St johns Guild.

So my theory is this and id like to hear from anybody who knows I am wrong here.

If your a good catholic (perfect relations with the pope) and produce normal knights from a town, then sooner or later that town will be offered a Templars Guild. Under those conditions the Templars will be offered early and usually first to that town. Eg before other guilds.

I believe the good catholic part is a requirement.

giskard

Kraxis

12-01-2006, 14:00

Nice...

Why don't you head over to the Guilds thread and post this. After all that is the thread that is designated to them.:egypt:

FrauGloer

12-01-2006, 16:57

I don't think I can agree with this "good relations to the pope" theory. In my game as Scotland, I've been the pope's posterboy from the start (with a minor fallout when I attacked England), I have participated in and completed all crusades and have a majority in the college of cardinals, but as of turn 130, I'm yet to be offered a Templar's Guild House. I have a "Master Chapter House of the Knights of St. John" (phew, what a name... :laugh4: ) as well as another minor one, but no templars. Same goes for my English campaign - perfect relations with the pope, loads of priests/cardinals, lots of offers for Knights Hospitaler, but no Templars...:furious3:

Lord Condormanius

12-01-2006, 17:23

I'm yet to be offered a Templar's Guild House. I have a "Master Chapter House of the Knights of St. John" (phew, what a name... :laugh4: ) as well as another minor one, but no templars. Same goes for my English campaign - perfect relations with the pope, loads of priests/cardinals, lots of offers for Knights Hospitaler, but no Templars...:furious3:

Same here. Plenty of Hospitallers, no Templars.

Grimmy

12-01-2006, 17:23

I was playing as England and had brushed up against the "back off or get discommunicated" a few times with Scotland. I had, at best, iffy faction with the Pope and then just a few turns after I finished off the Scotts by taking Inverness, I got the Templar guild. I'd converted Inverness to a town and got the guild offered 2 turns later.

I had built a total of 2 cav units. One mail knight and one hobliar at about turn 2 to help with the initial land grabs and those were built at Nottingham.

I've played the England campaign alot and that's the first time I've gotten a Knight Guild of any sort offered. I have zero clue how or why I got them this time.

Frantz

12-01-2006, 17:28

maybe you can have Hospitalliers OR Templars and not both ?

Sir Moody

12-01-2006, 17:40

if so in 4 english campaigns (hey im a patriot :laugh4:) ive been offered Hospitilers everytime - theres something we ar emissing in the conditions for templars

Derfel von Saljeth

12-01-2006, 17:46

maybe you can have Hospitalliers OR Templars and not both ?

I think it works this way...
In my experience (2 campaign , about 600 turns total) i've been offered only a Order. With Sicilians i was offered S. John Knights at Tunisis, with Scottish i received Templars in York
In both campaign this happened in early turns, without crusades started.

giskard

12-01-2006, 21:39

Kraxis: Sorry, didnt know that was the use for Guilds forum, last time i was here when a total war game got released it took me a while to get used to the forum naming system, guess im still not yet used to all the forum names.

Once i nail this, i will post it in the guilds. :)

ALL

Thanks Guys.

I was wondering if i had the system right for that offer. So we can dismiss the popes rep then. But nobody here has mentioned their empires overall catholic conversion rate.

Mine was close to 100% in all towns at the time.

Has anybody had the templars whilst their empire was herectical ?

Giskard

Derfel von Saljeth

12-01-2006, 21:49

Uhm don't realy remember
But as i said it happened realy early (about turn 10) in my campaign...
With Sicilians i only ruled on Tunisi, Naples, Sicily and i think Durazzo... and i don't realy think catholocism was high.

But i have a idea... when i conquer something , i the pope give me the mission to convert more population to catholicism or do build a chappel... And i do it as soon as possibile. Maybe this could be a factor?

giskard

12-01-2006, 23:08

I got both those for invenness too.

First a build a church mission, then the build a priest and convert missions. Also when i got a build a church mission after conquering spain, i got the lvl2 templar guild.

Could be related.

BTW people have not said if they already built guides in their towns because if they did, then the templar one cannot be built in a town already containing a guild.

Giskard

Kraxis

12-01-2006, 23:08

Kraxis: Sorry, didnt know that was the use for Guilds forum, last time i was here when a total war game got released it took me a while to get used to the forum naming system, guess im still not yet used to all the forum names.
No, I meant the thread about guilds here... It might have dropped down a bit.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72478
I suppose I could have been a bit more clear.

giskard

12-01-2006, 23:09

Edit:

I just remembered, ive seen that thread. It covered guilds generally but lacked any real detail.

Giskard

lancelot

12-02-2006, 00:43

Im still playing my first campaign but have never had any knight houses whatsoever. I was in Papal bad books for a while but for the last 50 turns or so I have been a good boy and denounced heretics left, right and center. My guy has been elected pope for numerous turns also.

What do you have to do to get any knight house?

Derfel von Saljeth

12-02-2006, 09:42

monkian

12-02-2006, 10:16

I would have assumed that completing a successful crusade would have put you in the running for a guild.

I've only have got Hospitaler Guilds, never any Templar ones though :embarassed:

Derfel von Saljeth

12-02-2006, 10:31

Nah, i always been offered a knightly order guild house before any crusade starts.

BUT i've noticed a thing... if you complete a crusade in holy lands (or conquer one of those territories), you can get higher lvl guild. Exemple... with scots, i only had a guild in York (lets say for about 100 turns) ... as soon as i conquered Gaza and Jerusalem i've been offered to upgrade to lvl 2 the York one, and to place another guild house at Gaza

If i remember correctly the same happened with the sicilians... i received first guild house in early game in Tunisis but others just came when i conquered Acri, Gaza and Jerusalem

Grimmy

12-02-2006, 11:27

I've played several English short campaigns m/m and only once got an Order guild offer, that being for the Templars in the newly conquered and converted Inverness as stated above.

One other abberation in that game was that every mission I accomplished paid me 4 mailed horse. I was disbanding mailed horse left and right. Not even once did I get a cash payment or anything else but the 4 mailed horse.

I wonder if those horse counted toward building horse units to trigger the Templar offer?

That was the only game I've played that offered only a constant load of horse meat and also the only one ever to give me a knightly order.

Also, incase folk are compiling what might work and what not for triggers... I've never accepted an offer to crusade.

I'm saving that up to add as a new "wrinkle" to play with once I start getting a bit burned out on the standard campaign game.

FactionHeir

12-02-2006, 18:45

From my experience, you can only have either St John or Templars.
The only pre-req seems to be a successful crusade (you taking the target town)
You will then be randomly offered the houses in towns and castles, although castles seem to have a slightly higher chance of getting them.
If you get offered Templars and you decline, you get offered St John next time until you decide for one.

St John is better than Templars as everything they give is the same except that St John also give a public health bonus.

Grimmy

12-02-2006, 20:09

If it's supposed to be a crusade that triggers the knightly order offer then it's bugged.

I got a templar house and never went on any crusade.

Derfel von Saljeth

12-02-2006, 20:27

Same with me...
As i wrote, i received knightly order before any crusade even started.

FactionHeir

12-02-2006, 21:25

Well, for me I never got the offer until after a crusade. And that was usually exactly the turn after a successful one (and you had to have atleast a minor city or fortress)
Maybe there's more to it then.

btw, I never got theologicians guild or woodsmen guild or masons guild. No clue why even when I trained massive bows as brits and massive priests as milan and generally do building.

ViolentRebellion

12-02-2006, 23:41

I was finally was offered the Templars guild in my french campaign.

Of all places (i held Jerusalem/Acre/Gaza/Cairo) I was offered the Templars minor chapter house it in Bordeaux (wtf?).

Templars are great for spearheading your cavalary assaults.

I don't look at the stats, but so far in each of my battles where they were present, they were the backbone of the main assault.

In one battle against sicily (battle for Venice), I was outnumbered 2to1. My two squads of Templars each had over 100 kills and ended up with only half of their ranks dead. So 40 dead and 200 killed. Needless to say, I won.

I noticed that the Templars are more likely to lower their lances than many of the other Knights I've used. Frankish Knights it seems always have their goddam swords out and French Feudal Knights are about 50/50. As for the Templars I'd say they 75/25.

This definately makes them much more effective in an large field battle.

I've used the Hospitallars before as England, and they're good, mainly because England's cavalry is shit anyway, but these Templars are definately better.

Haven't been able to get a second chapter house yet as I'm in a stalemate in the Holy Land. I eliminated Egypt but the Arab rebels are much tougher than their Egyptian counterparts. I will soon send another Army with some Templars across the MED to aid my Crusading warriors.

BTW, great idea for increasing your stature with the Papacy and giving yourself less to defend in the M.E. is giving lands like Cairo, Jeffa and Alexandria to the Papacy. This has helped me concentrate on the northern border of the holy land and let the Papacy deal with the rebellious citizens of the Egyptian world.

I don't know why I got the Templars but here is the situation I was in for anyone who is good at finding patterns/reasons.

1.)My papal standing was good since the second Pope was elected. I've owned the papacy since that election.

2.)My only other guild is Theologians guild which I have in almost every city.
- I destroyed the theives guild and brothels in all my conquered cities.

3.) I was offered St. Johns about 3 times, turned them down, before the Templars approached me.

4.)Since the begining of the game I was going for Chivalry in all my generals. This gave me some problems with money early as I released prisoners: didnt tax very highly unless it was absolutely necessary (and only for a turn or so).

5.) I completed 3 crusades. One Pope called Crusade against Jerusalem, and two others where I asked for them to be called on Milan and Gaza.

I now control all of modern day France, northern Italy and parts of the Holy Land.

I immediately kicked British off the continent at the start and they will most likely be my next target after Sicily is eradicated.

Well good luck to all of you waiting for the Templars, hope any of this helped.

Shahed

12-03-2006, 00:41

Molinaargh

12-03-2006, 01:12

I got a Templar's Guild in Krakow (a city) without ever producing cavalry there. My standing with the Pope wasn't really high and I had never joined a crusade (none had started).

Well, I guess the Guild triggers are mysterious.

giskard

12-03-2006, 07:57

Are some of your region without ant guild?
Have you tried to build more cappels and church for a while? As i said i usualy get my first templar/hospitaler house when i conquer a new region and i try to convert it asap (build chappel, then church, train some priest)

Whilst I usually turn down some guilds for specific cities that I want templars and so far to be given too. Or in the case of foot trooper producing cities, the sword masters guild etc. I do usually work the same way you work and I do normally get offered guilds for newly conquered towns on a fairly frequent basis.

I think its because the act of taking a town, destroys any guilds that where there previously.

Also any grand guild house would appear in the city display on the campaign map, so you would know if the city had one right away.

But i think your right, i think the conversion process if started early, has something to do with it. The pope certainly knows if your a good converter so why not the templars.

Giskard

knoddy

12-03-2006, 10:45

i got a templar guild a few turns ago in my scottish camp, in york. i had not been on a crusade, the only crusade to have gone out failed. i only had like 4-5 rep on the pope o meter and the province was only about 90% catholic. i am mystified as to the real trigger for templar guilds :S

Cheers Knoddy

Derfel von Saljeth

12-03-2006, 10:52

You built a church and some priest in york?

FactionHeir

12-03-2006, 12:48

Guilds are not destroyed when you take a city.

knoddy

12-03-2006, 12:51

considering a church and a priest or 2 is the first thing i do in new provinces yes.

giskard

12-03-2006, 17:52

Guilds are not destroyed when you take a city.

If thats true then the AI does not get offered guilds.

Nearly all the towers I conquer get offered lvl1 guilds of 1 type of another.

So we have a mystery here.

Giskard

Wizzie

12-03-2006, 18:18

I'd say about 50% of the cities and castles I've conquered have guilds. The Byzantine Empire seemed particularly fond of the Thieves Guild.

-Wiz

knoddy

12-03-2006, 23:33

theives and swordsmith guilds are the only guilds that the ai takes. i made a post about this somwhere else, my belief is that they accept the first guild offered to them, and seeing as theives are easy to get thats wot they always have.

Don Jacopo Caldora

12-04-2006, 03:47

Played 3 games so far.

Played as England, Denmark and Sicily.

I only got a Templar guild one time, and that was when I took the city of Invernes from the Scot's, and it was already built, I did not build it. I dont think i was offered any other chapter houses that game at all.

Second and third games I got Hospitlar chapter houses pretty easily, espicially when playing as Sicily. I was turning down some of the offers just to get other guilds.

I would think France might have a better chance of gaining templar's, as wern't the origional knights templar Frenchmen?

Reapz

12-05-2006, 08:54

I think I can debunk a few theories here. I don't think obtaining the Templar's Guild has anything to do with being a good catholic or going on crusade.

I am playing a second campaign vh/vh as Scotland. The first one I was a good and pious citizen. This time I decided to be as aggressive as possible, basically forget politics and religion, and take every opportunity to seize territory and crush weakened opponents. I have destroyed England and Denmark. I am currently at war with 8 other factions, have no allies, have a papal standing of zero, where it has been most of the game. I have been excommunicated more times than I can count. I have inquisitors, heretics and witches crawling all over my territories. I have never participated in a crusade, in fact have used those opportunities to pillage pious nations that are silly enough to send their armies away to the please the Pope. I was offered a Templar's Guild in York after about 65 turns!:laugh4:

resonantblue

12-05-2006, 09:28

The explorer guild gives a % chance to give a general in the city the "Intrepid Explorer" ancillary, which boots movement by 15% and increases sight range, IIRC. Needless to say, this is very, very useful for a general to have.

The alchemist guild gives an ancillary. As do a couple of the other guilds (I forget which). The explorer ancillary is easily the most useful.

Derfel von Saljeth

12-05-2006, 09:48

I'm thinking knightly order just pop up when you conquer a said province.
All who played scottland receiver their first templar guild soon after conquering York or Inverness (also without partecipating a crusade), and i'm doing my second sicilian campaign and again i've been offered a hospitaler guild in Tunisis...

Mega Dux Bob

12-30-2006, 02:24

I just ended up with three Templar Chapter houses early in the game! I think you have to be in on the first Crusade called as one of the first responders. Interestingly I got the guild in Paris. Now Templar Knights, that one ups Militia Horse.

Fisherking

12-30-2006, 17:56

The only times I have gotten the Templars is when I was playing as Scotland. I thought maybe I would pick them up playing as the Portuguese but I quit the campaign to load up the patch…should have played on, ya know.

I was surprised not to get an offer as the French or even as England

katank

12-30-2006, 18:28

The AI definitely gets tons of thieves guilds. Their spy happy spamming might have something to do with that.

Some regions are predisposed towards certain guilds. Inverness towards crusading guilds for example. In my English game where I was a very bad Catholic (never went on crusade, excommed, had crusades called against me), I got an offer of a Templar guild in Inverness, turned it down, and then got a St. John's guild there.

Quillan

12-30-2006, 20:55

I've rarely seen other guilds in AI hands, although I did take a castle from the Spanish a couple of days ago that had a Knights of Santiago chapterhouse in it.

Discoman

12-31-2006, 05:06

I only got the Knights Templar only after conquering the settlement they were in from Scotland. Perhaps getting Templars has to do with chilvary of characters.

FrauGloer

12-31-2006, 14:04

Looking at export_descr_guilds, it becomes clear why it's easier to get Hospitallers than it is getting Templars: the only ways to increase the chance for templars are a) have a general join a crusade (+25) and b) train templars (+10 for the settlement, +1 overall) for which you have to have the guild already. For St. John's, you also get bonuses for declaring war on muslims (+10) and having muslim neigbors (+10 for the settlement, +1 overall). As I found this a bit 'unfair' towards the Templars, I changed the file to give those bonuses to them, too. After all, they were a military order and fought against the muslims.

Added lines are in bold:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0170_Declare_War_Muslim_Faction
WhenToTest FactionWarDeclared

Condition TargetFactionReligion islam
and FactionReligion catholic

Guild st_johns_chapter_house a 10
Guild templars_chapter_house a 10

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0171_Muslim_Neighbours
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart

Condition NeighbourReligion islam > 50
and FactionReligion catholic

Guild st_johns_chapter_house s 10
Guild st_johns_chapter_house o 1
Guild templars_chapter_house s 10
Guild templars_chapter_house o 1

katank

12-31-2006, 22:03

Wardo

12-31-2006, 23:00

I like to play slow, very slow, so slow that I barely conquer one province every 10 turns during an offensive (1 year per turn).

So, by the time I conquered Scotland with Denmark, they had a Templars guild in Iverness while I had accepted a while before a Hospitallers guild in Jerusalem.

So, now I have both Hospitallers (in Jerusalem and York) and Templars in Iverness. I'm really looking forward to see if I can capture an HRE town with a Teutonic Knights guild!

But personally, I'd like to simply edit them all in my capital at the beginning of the game. If you know how to do that, let me know.

The Stranger

12-31-2006, 23:03

it isnt that hard... i can check it for you whne im at home... but maybe sumbuddy will beat me to it...

FrauGloer

01-01-2007, 15:03

Other than for flavor, I don't see any point to Templars. Their base stats are equal to Knights of St. John. However, they charge without orders and are thus less easy to control. They also get 1 fewer armour upgrades.

Yep, the missing armour upgrade sucks. That's why I changed their entry in export_descr_unit to give them the second upgrade, too. They don't have a third model, though, so the step from basic armour to partial plate is not represented in battle. IMO, they still look good that way.

armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 5
armour_ug_models Knights_Templar, Knights_Templar, Knights_Templar_ug1

I have no problem with Templars being impetuous, I have yet to see them charge without orders in my campaigns.

Lastly, their guild building does not provide a health benefit like the St. John's.

I hear you on this. To counter this, I added a (rather low) trade bonus to templar buildings. This is historically justifiable, as the templars established one of Europe's first professional banking systems. I also added a 1% conversion bonus to all order houses to represent their religious influence.