Unit (and Building) Names in EB 0.8

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We aren't totally sold on this yet, there are problems with it, but for now, this is our current system. It is pretty much the same thing for buildings too, but I'll just give you examples of units right now.

Here is the system: We maintain the same names we had before for units (and buildings), but we also now have a translation in English right beneath them. This is something the public seems to really have been asking for, to help understand those long native names for many EB units (and buildings). But, there are some problems. Here is where you will see the new names, and where there are issues:

The good:
1a. strat map unit information screen (they look perfect there)
1b. battle map unit information screen (same)
2a. strat map tooltip passover box (they look good there)
2b. battle map unit information screen (same)
3. strat map unit recruited message, when more than one unit is recruited (short descriptions of units and their names)

They don't look so good on:
4. strat map unit recruited message, when only one unit is recruited (second line overlaps onto text; messy but very clearly legible)
5. MIC building description screen (where the main names are ok, but the second line drops down to where the second line *should* be on the unit beneath it - this is still understandable often, if very very messy and just barely legible to illegible).
6. Battle Statistics screen (after a battle; this is the same problem as #2 above, where the second line drops down at the end of the next unit's name - again, I think this is very messy, but it's still legible if you know what the error is)

Here they are:
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1641/nameproblemsio3.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nameproblemsio3.jpg)

Buildings have the same issues, but there is no #3 problem above, for battle statistics, or for the #2 problem above. So, this is something we will be thinking about and maybe trying to figure out a way around. Or we might decide to live with the way it is now. I've got one thing in mind already, but we'll have to wait and see.

So, just remember that we know this problem exists, and we are trying to remedy it, but it gives us something we didn't have before and we are liking some aspects of this system. Here is how we do the code, by the way:


Frameharjoz\n(Germanic Spear Infantry)
That \n makes it automatically hard-return.

-----------------------------------------------------
Note: Those numbers before the units were just to let us keep track of them in internal builds - they should be gone in 0.8, or very soon afterwards.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Is the quotation name a translation or a short explaination of the name? For example would Hastati be 'Spears' or 'Roman Infantry'?

[CountArach]

This seems fine to me. As you said, it loks a bit messy in some places, but it is fine.

I'm more interested in the numbers. Is that just the place in the EDU?

[Cheexsta]

Is the quotation name a translation or a short explaination of the name? For example would Hastati be 'Spears' or 'Roman Infantry'?
I daresay it'd be closer to being a description or loose translation than a literal translation. But that's just speculation...

As to the problem, here is my (untested) suggestion:

For #4, try opening descr_event_images.txt and scroll down to the unit_completed entry. If it's anything like the current EB0.74 format, it'll look like this:


unit_completed
icon military
heading_items 5
format
{
title center verdana black
string center verdana_med khaki
image center
spacer 8
string center verdana_med black
bodystring left verdana_sml khaki left
spacer 8
multistring left verdana_sml khaki left
}
After the second "string" entry (the one after the short spacer and just before the "bodystring"), try adding another spacer. This may stop the text from overlapping.

#5 and 6 appear to be hardcoded, though.

[-Praetor-]

You can always put the translated name on first part of the unit description (both in the long one and in the short description one) instead of under the unit original name...

Thus you would avoid all this problems... and still give us a translation of the original names.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It wouldn't show up in the tooltip passover though - which is really important on the battlefield. I didn't include that too, but that is really important also, when you pass over a unit on the battlefield and see who they are. It works fine on that now.

[fallen851]

Hey Telekos, would you be kind enough to direct me to the files I can edit to get rid of the translated names as to not have these problems? Thanks.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's one of those few files in the text subdirectory of EB/Data/text. export_units.txt maybe? Something like that. Export_buildings.txt is where you find the buildings one, but it's huge. Huuuuge. And you run into those mistakes for buildings only in my "#4" listing above. So unless you're interested in a lot more work on top of the unit ones, I'd suggest just doing those and forgetting about the building ones. But if you are, go for it.

[fallen851]

Hmm... are these files likely to change a lot soon (or that means will there be a patch coming soon)?

Is this problem hardcoded or will we eventually have a fix to this problem?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, someone can try out Cheexsta's suggestion. I've been too busy releasing all this stuff today and I don't even have the 0.8 build yet, so I'm not touching any of the files right now for fear of using and making corrections on an outdated one. If it helps, we might be able to use it. One other thing I was thinking about was just making the first two lines of the unit (maybe building too) descriptions very short or hard return twice (\n\n\n\n) to make the line bump down and that way the #4 problem above at least would be tolerable. We'd love it if someone figured out a solution - we just haven't gotten one yet ourselves.

[Oleo]

I sort of like this


Frameharjoz (Germanic Spear Infantry)

instead of


Frameharjoz\n(Germanic Spear Infantry)

resulting in

https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3950/piclayoutgr4.th.jpg (https://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=piclayoutgr4.jpg)

1 looks worse (in some cases), 2 and 3 dont seem to much different (in how good they look)for me, 4 is a bit better, 5 and 6 look way better. Drawback of course is that there probably are longer unit names, which sort of dont look to good, see thessalian cavalry.

[khelvan]

I had always voted in favor for having the translated unit names in the description and/or tooltips rather than the name itself, so to me I strongly prefer anything other than what we're working on here, but you guys already knew that.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

How do those look on the battlefield oleo? If they look good, that seems a viable option.

edit: Khelvan, I agree the name in the description and tooltip would suffice, but the tooltip is just the name. So if it's in the name, it's in the tooltip, but if it's in the description, it's not in the tooltip. At least that's how buildings work and I thought that's how units work too.

[Imperator]

I really like the look of what oleo's has got- anyone care to upload that edu, or am I going to have to do that by hand?

[Kull]

I sort of like this


Frameharjoz (Germanic Spear Infantry)

instead of


Frameharjoz\n(Germanic Spear Infantry)

I totally agree. The offsets and overwrites resulting from the \n were downright awful. Your fix appears to be VERY effective! Thanks! :2thumbsup:


I really like the look of what oleo's has got- anyone care to upload that edu, or am I going to have to do that by hand?

As far as I'm concerned, it should be part of the bug fix release, and thus not too far off. For anyone who wants to "do your own", find the export_units.txt and export_buildings.txt inside the \EB\Data\text folder and eliminate every \n that lies between the native and translated names.

A step by step "search-replace" involving "\n(" in the search and " " in the replace should allow you to process the change very quickly (a "global replace" is risky, thus the recommendation for a one-by-one).

[CountArach]

Those look good Oleo! However, I think that buildings should stay as they are. They look fine as is IMO.

[Oleo]

Thank you for the kind words.



How do those look on the battlefield oleo? If they look good, that seems a viable option.


Here are some shots on the battlefield

https://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1096/piclayout2zx7.th.jpg (https://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=piclayout2zx7.jpg)



Here is a link to my export_units.txt file, for those who want it changed. Ive changed all units, according to my last post. I havent really tested it yet, but I dont see any reason why it shouldn't work properly. Still: Use it at your own risk. I included an original, but back up your own. The file has to be put in C:\program files\activision\Rome - Total War\EB\data\text, or your custom installation folder.


http://rapidshare.com/files/6455757/Unit_names.rar.html


I have one other question. The general format in the original text is:

{name}>TAB<name\n(translation)

For instance:

{greek_missile_toxotai} Toxotai\n(Hellenic Archers)

But sometimes units are in this format:

{name}>TAB< name\n(translation),

there are one or two or three spaces between the tab and the name (toxotai). Is that intentional or by accident? Cause it makes the names not line up straight in the MIC-screen (when you rightclick on the MIC/barracks)

[blacksnail]

Great catch, Oleo! That looks like a mistake.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I totally agree. The offsets and overwrites resulting from the \n were downright awful. Your fix appears to be VERY effective! Thanks! :2thumbsup:



As far as I'm concerned, it should be part of the bug fix release, and thus not too far off. For anyone who wants to "do your own", find the export_units.txt and export_buildings.txt inside the \EB\Data\text folder and eliminate every \n that lies between the native and translated names.

A step by step "search-replace" involving "/n(" in the search and " " in the replace should allow you to process the change very quickly (a "global replace" is risky, thus the recommendation for a one-by-one).
I am in agreement with this also Kull. I don't think fans should worry with it - the files are being changed up for the next build anyway, so fan changes would get overwritten. We need to do it. I'll do it if need be - if Aymar would like someone else to take it on.

[fallen851]

Awesome.

[khelvan]

I would pay good money if some fan wants to take the time to remove the English descriptions from the names to preserve immersion as an EB mini-mod. Anyone up for a commission? :)

I would personally play with that mini-mod, and I only wish I had the time to make it.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

And to keep updating it as further updates come down the pipe? :grin:

[khelvan]

Of course, sometimes one must sacrifice for the greater good ;)

[Watchman]

I was planning to do that with mine anyway...

[Imperator]

the files are being changed up for the next build anyway, so fan changes would get overwritten. We need to do it. I'll do it if need be - if Aymar would like someone else to take it on.
so will oleo's system be used in .81?

[Watchman]

I would pay good money if some fan wants to take the time to remove the English descriptions from the names to preserve immersion as an EB mini-mod. Anyone up for a commission? :)

I would personally play with that mini-mod, and I only wish I had the time to make it.I could do it, and for free too. ~;) Did it already with the 0.8 one, although if you want it you'll need to tell me how to send it over first... :sweatdrop:

[Batahr]

I would pay good money if some fan wants to take the time to remove the English descriptions from the names to preserve immersion as an EB mini-mod. Anyone up for a commission? :)

Here (http://home.student.utwente.nl/a.willemsen/No_English_names_EB080.rar) you are, now where's that good money? :)

I also removed the extra spaces/tabs Oleo noticed a few posts up. I didn't do this by hand, but did a few find/replaces (I love regular expressions), so I'm not guaranteeing everything is 100% correct.

And BTW, my thanks to the entire EB team for their fantastic work! It's great seeing all the pieces (units, buildings, music, speech, GUI, descriptions, traits, etc) previewed before come together and truly form one whole. It gives the game precisely the right atmosphere, something that is quite hard to achieve.

[khelvan]

You guys rock - you might want to use our minimod forum up above so that this gets visibility.

[Obelics]

thanks thanks thanks bathar! the first think i will upgrade on my 0.8

pheraphs im not that good to express my whole excitement in playing the 0.8 build, so i give a thanks again to people who did it, but i had just a small think:

minimods are great, but i think that the "no english names" think should be provided as a in build feature, just like the think of the naked/dressed gesatae.
for example at the start of the installation you should choose between a "english name subtitle" and a "non english subs", i think that's could be great and preserve the old spirit better.

that's not to complain minimods, but i think that the matter of "no english subtitles" is one of the hardcore thinks from EB most appreciated, so some fans that liked them could find that EB isn't changed!

I'll be sincere, playing the 0.8 my eyes are starting to fall more often on the english name than on the translated name, and this is going to diminish somethink in my opinion. You know the human-brain thend to focus on the easiest think. And i recall when at start i wasn't able to digest the strange names, but after a while, for example, my cataphract, were not anymore just "cataphract", but i started to think (internally) as "armoured heroes" zadhra pahlavans. This "process was slow, but it was amazing and addicting.

So in the end: im very happy there is a "3th party" minimod to have back the "no english" names, but i'd like that this matter is in the EB "main party" yet. So why do not make an istaller option like that of naked/dressed gauls?

Im sure that if this is possible, you will take that in consideration.
If it is impossible we will have to go to 3th party minimods, but im sure that the human-brain is so lazy, that after a while the eye will fall only on the english name and the minimod will be forgot (or at last it will survive only for the most hardcore ones there outside).

Instead, having an installer option (i repeat on the kind of the naked/unnaked gesate) will make it more a temptation to install the "no english names" version.

Here's an example:

imagine that the EB gesatae weren't naked, they were just dressed. Now imagine that there is a guy who make a minimod to have them naked. I think that minimod could have some success, but it was not in the EB official line.

So i say whay do not have an installer option to have back the old think?

Thanks guys, and you have made a masterpiece with 0.8 (cant even imagine the further upgrades)

[blacksnail]

You know, that's a good idea. I'll check on the possibility of this - it'll involve a lot of deletion, but a "Subtitles" vs "Full Immersion option" should be easy enough to create if we were smart about it. I'll see if we can get something like this ready for our next major update (not the forthcoming bugfix update, mind you).

[Obelics]

thanks for the interest on this point im really looking forward to this feature.
It could be even completely avoided the problem, keeping the "no subtitle" version as the standard installation, and have an option to install a sort of "downgrade", that use "only" the english names. Since as i sayd i think with the time the eyes will tend to fall on the english names, so there is no point to have 2 names in the same version in my opinion.
People who like the english names could select that installation option to downgrade the EB to the english names and that's finished.
So there also is no problem anymore of that messed-up battle result tabs. There are only old-way names XOR english names (both exclusives)

Cant understand why the old-way must be downgraded to a minimod... (should have been the perfect opposite in my opinion, there should have been a minimod for the english subs, or at last an installation option like that)

anyway thanks a lot for your work (that is even "gratis")

salut!