How to Attract Guilds

[Daveybaby]

From perusing the contents of export_descr_guilds.txt i have determined the following:

Each guild type has 3 levels, to get a guild at each level the player has to score a certain number of points for either their faction overall, or for that particular settlement.

Guild: 100 points
Masters Guild: 250 points
Guild HQ: 500 points

The player gains (and loses) points for each guild for each settlement, and for their entire faction, by performing certain deeds. In general, settlements will gain more per deed (typically 10-30 points) than the overall faction score (typically 1-5 points per deed).

Not sure how the overall faction score works, presumably if your overall faction score exceeds the required amount you will get offered a guild even if none of your individual settlements qualify - thus you can still get guilds by, say, training lots of priests all over the place - but it will still be far quicker if you train them all in the same settlement.

Agents can also gain points. Assume that this is once per agent, and that these points add to the overall faction score. Edit: hmmm... this may refer to achievements rather than agents.

Edit: According to work done by Kobal2fr it looks probable that all scores are added to each settlement, or at least the settlement and overall faction scores are (dont know about the agent stuff yet).

Edit: Eldon made the observation that the three tags in export_descr_guilds.txt refer to the specific settlement, other settlements, and all settlements, respectively. This makes a whole lot more sense than the whole the whole faction and agent scores i came up with, so i've edited the stuff below to reflect this.

In summary, points are gained for:
1. The specific settlement where the event occurred.
2. All settlements other than where the event occurred (usually a smaller number of points).
3. All settlements regardless of where the event occurred.

General
Upgrade a guild (+20 settlement bonus for that guild type, +10 to other settlements)
Destroy a guild building (huge penalty for that guild type, -100 settlement, -20 others)
Upgrade a settlement (+10 settlement bonus for all guild types)
Every 25 turns every settlement loses 1 point for all guilds (or 1 point every turn after turn 25?)

Missions
Bonuses are also given for successfully completing a guild mission, but failing to complete the guild mission will incur a penalty for that guild type.

The following guilds offer missions:
Assassin's/Hashashim's Guild
Merchant's Guild
Explorer's Guild
Theologian's Guild
Thieves Guild

Assassin's/Hashashim's Guild
Train assassin/hashashim: +10 settlement
Successful Assassinations: +20 all settlements
Governor with dread >4: +4 settlement bonus (per turn?)
Build brothel series buildings: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/2/5 others
Succeed/Fail guild mission: +/-10 all settlements

Alchemist's Guild
Train Cannons etc: +10/15/20 settlement
Train handgunners etc: +15 settlement
Build cannon maker series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +1/2/3/4/5 others

Explorer's Guild
Train merchants: +10 settlement
Build shipbuilding buildings: +15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/2/5 others
Build merchants wharf series: +20/25/30 settlement, +0/2/5 others
Fleet distance from capital 50-99: +3 all settlements
Fleet distance from capital >100 : +5 all settlements
Succeed/Fail Explorer guild mission: +/-30 all settlements

Horse Breeder's Guild
Train cavalry: +10 settlement, +1 others
Build stables series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +1/2/3/4/5 others
Build racetrack/sultan's ractrack +50/75 settlement, +5 others
Governor throws races: +5 settlement

Mason's Guild
Build Stone wall series: +10/15/20 settlement, +2/2/3 others
Build mustering halls series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +2/2/2/2/3 others
Build town watch series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement +2/2/2/2/3 others
Build armourer series: +10/15/15/20/25/30 settlement +2/2/2/2/2/3 others
Build bowyer series: +10/15/20/30 settlement +2/2/2/3 others

Merchant's Guild
Train merchants: +10 settlement
Build merchants wharf series: +20/25/30 settlement, +0/2/5 others
Build market series: +10/15/20/25 settlement, +0/0/2/5 others
Make trade agreement: +10 all settlements
Successful aquisition: +10 all settlements
Income > 1000/2000/5000/10000: +1/2/3/4 all settlements(per turn?)
Succeed/Fail merchant's guild mission: +/- 10/20 all settlements (depending on difficulty?)

Swordsmith's Guild
Build armourer series: +10/15/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/1/2/5 others
Train sword unit: +15 settlement
Units: Sword and Buckler Men, Sudanese Tribesmen, Swordsmen Militia, Armored Swordsmen, Highland Nobles, Zweihander, Noble Swordsmen, Forlorn Hope, Byzantine Infantry, Battlefield Assassins, Norse Swordsmen, Dismounted Feudal Knights, Dismounted Chivalric Knights, Dismounted Gothic Knights, Dismounted Conquistadores, Dismounted Italian MAA, Dismounted Broken Lances, Dismounted Norman Knights, Dismounted Polish Knights, Dismounted E Chivalric Knights, Dismounted Byzantine Lancers, Dismounted Latinkon, Hashishim, Urban Militia, Dismounted Christian Guard

Theologian's Guild
Train Priests: +10 settlement
Build church/masjid series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/1/2/5 others
Get your cardinal elected pope: +30 all settlements
Governor's piety >5: +5 settlement (per turn?)
Succeed/Fail theologian's guild mission: +/-10 all settlements
Priest becomes a heretic: -5 all settlements

Thieves Guild
Train spies: +10 settlement
Build brothel series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement
Governor with dread >4: +2 settlement (per turn?)
Spy in a settlement: +2 all settlements (per turn?)
Succeed/Fail theives guild mission: +/-10 all settlements

Woodsman's Guild
Recruit archers (England only!): +10/15/20 settlement (depending on unit)
Build brothel series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/2/5 others
Governor with chivalry >4: +5 settlement (per turn?)

Various Knight's Chapter Houses
General joins crusade: +25 all settlements
General abandons crusade: -25 all settlements
Recruit Specialist Knight: +10 settlement, +1 others (knight type tied to guild type)
Governor Chivalry >4: +5 settlement

St. John's guild get a +10 settlement, +1 others bonus when the settlement has muslim neighbours
St. John's guild get a +10 bonus for all settlements when you declare war on a muslim faction.
Teutonic guild get a +10 settlement, +1 others bonus when the settlement has pagan neighbours

[Whoz'onE]

Great analysis - thanks Daveybaby.

[Zenicetus]

Interesting info, thanks!

Either the data is incomplete or else I'm getting a bug in my game with the Explorer's Guild. I'm playing Spain, and the Explorer's Guild just offered me a mission to take the city of Pamplona from the Portuguese (who I'm currently not at war with). That seemed really odd. I suspect it might be mixed up somehow with what should normally be a Council of Nobles mission.

[Kobal2fr]

Very interesting, and fits neatly with what I had figured.

I'd say that the "faction" score gets added to every single city's score. I don't believe there would be a point to have two separate tallies when one does the trick.

[dismal]

Agent points = faction points? That seems odd. Are you sure about that?

I guess it makes more sense than settlement points.

But what are explorer's guild agents? Ships? If I fail to take a settlement that the expolrer's guild asks me to take I lose 30 points per ship? That's a lot of points.

I say this not being sure why it would be all that great to have a lot of Explorer's guild points to begin with. Presumably it gets you the wordwide headquarters. If it's not already built somewhere else. But I'm not sure what the wordwide explorer's guild HQ gets you.

[andrewt]

Ouch, I'm playing as Russia right now and they have no units that give points for a swordsmith's guild. Turkey seems to have it bad, too, with Hashishims the only unit they have that gives points. It also took me forever to get any with Venice, as I found the Venetian heavy infantry way better than the dismounted feudal knights and only built the knights when I was facing the Mongols and didn't have enough Venetian heavy in queue.

Guess I will now start to use an inland province to make my priests and spies and will put quite a few on a certain province. I'd like my coastal cities to have merchant's.

[Daveybaby]

I'd say that the "faction" score gets added to every single city's score. I don't believe there would be a point to have two separate tallies when one does the trick.
That would make perfect sense, just dunno if thats what actually happens, or if it's separate - i.e.

IF (settlement points > threshold) OR (faction points > threshold)

vs

IF (settlement points + faction points > threshold)


Agent points = faction points? That seems odd. Are you sure about that?No, not really. :grin:
Just a guess, but it makes sense that the summation of all agent points are added to your faction total - you cant really add them to any one settlement, and the agents cant do anything with them themselves.


But what are explorer's guild agents? Ships? If I fail to take a settlement that the expolrer's guild asks me to take I lose 30 points per ship? That's a lot of points.
w.r.t. fleet distances the agents are the fleet admirals. w.r.t. missions then it depends on the mission i guess, but it should be fairly straightforward based on what the mission involves.

[Hashashiyyin]

Funny, for the turks, the only sword unit you listed for the swordsmith's guild is hashishim. but you can't build hashashim in a city unless you already have the hashashim guild! thus it appears you can never have the swordsmith's guild as the turns unless you build a LOT of armor factories:inquisitive:

[Daveybaby]

Funny, for the turks, the only sword unit you listed for the swordsmith's guild is hashishim. but you can't build hashashim in a city unless you already have the hashashim guild! thus it appears you can never have the swordsmith's guild as the turns unless you build a LOT of armor factories:inquisitive:
Bear in mind its only 100 points for the first level guild. You get +10 for a first level armourer, then another +15 for the second level, and +20 for third.

So its either 4 cities at level 2 armourer, or just 2 at level 3 (plus one at level 1). Not too traumatic, especially if you bear in mind that most of the sword units are only available after 2 or 3 levels of barracks upgrades anyway.

Edit: cant believe i posted that, it's garbage.
Only the settlement points for that settlement will be cumulative, so you would probably have to build all 5 levels of armourer in a settlement in order to get a swordsmith's, unless you build a LOT of armourers elsewhere.

[Varigg]

One correction: Teutonic Knights get the points for Pagan neighbors, not muslim.

[Daveybaby]

One correction: Teutonic Knights get the points for Pagan neighbors, not muslim.
Fixed, thanks - lazy copy-paste error :rolleyes:

[dismal]

w.r.t. fleet distances the agents are the fleet admirals. w.r.t. missions then it depends on the mission i guess, but it should be fairly straightforward based on what the mission involves.

Well, my latest mission from the explorer's guild is "Take Dublin".

Not something that can be done by an admiral or a ship.

There'd be a fairly significant difference on those distance bonuses beween agents being admirals v. ships. I tend to keep my ships in big stacks. I could split up a stack of ships and have a bunch more admirals.

[Maizel]

How does one get an Hashashim guild then?

[Daveybaby]

How does one get an Hashashim guild then?
Functionally identical to assassin's guild. Fixed text, thanks.


Well, my latest mission from the explorer's guild is "Take Dublin". Not something that can be done by an admiral or a ship.

w.r.t. missions then it depends on the mission i guess, but it should be fairly straightforward based on what the mission involves.
I would guess it goes to the general of the conquering army in that case. Shrug. You know as much as i do on that score.


There'd be a fairly significant difference on those distance bonuses beween agents being admirals v. ships. I tend to keep my ships in big stacks. I could split up a stack of ships and have a bunch more admirals.
The file definitely specifies admirals. It probably needs to be ranked admirals - i.e. if you split up a fleet you can recombine them straight away - but if the new admiral gains a star in combat you wont be able to recombine them any more. So i would expect that only 'proper' admirals would count.

[FactionHeir]

I am quite impressed at your list, good work.

Now that still does not explain why I never get swordsman guild (except from settlements I conquer) and I never got Mason, Woodsman and Theologians either. And I am constantly at my priest agent limit, trained lots of archers (when I was brit) and always build those buildings you mentioned first for pre-reqs.

[dismal]

I would guess it goes to the general of the conquering army in that case. Shrug. You know as much as i do on that score.

I guess it would just accrue to the faction score anyway. Unless there is a reason to believe that guild points have some meaning at the individual agent level.

I appreciate that we're doing a bit of speculating here. Thanks for the work you did.

[Kobal2fr]

That would make perfect sense, just dunno if thats what actually happens, or if it's separate - i.e.

IF (settlement points > threshold) OR (faction points > threshold)

vs

IF (settlement points + faction points > threshold)

I know, I know, it's just that... well, if they are indeed separate, it means that for a city to get say Assassin HQ on its own, you'd have to build no less than 40 assassins (FOURTY !) out of it, since top brothel = 100 pts total. And that's not taking into account the -1 per 25 turns thing.

That's a LOT of assassins sent to die of door-induced broken noses :laugh4:

Besides, I'm pretty sure faction is added to city total because I've managed to have a basic Theologian Guild built in Paris just like I wanted to, about 25 turns from the start. Here goes the facts :

- Total provinces owned = 9,
- one successful crusade,
- best church a type 3 church in Paris, other regions have type 2 ones, if that. Priests trained everywhere (1 priest per region, all local trained). One pope (who lasted one turn before kicking the bucket too :furious3:) , a couple of priests turned heretic. Got the guild when I trained 2 more priests out of Paris (to replace those heretic blighters).

None of that would equal 100 total points on its own, but :

30 (priests, local) + 30 (pope, faction) + 45 (church, local) = 105. Minus 10 for priests turned heretic (faction), add a few turns of King Philip before he got his Pagan Magician (local (*)), that's just enough for a basic guild, which is what I got. But the math doesn't work if you take away the faction points.

What I'm really wondering about is wether agent points are faction-wide, or added to the city that built them originally...

(*) Have you managed to find out what triggers these BTW ? I swear I've never had a general without David Copperfield in tow sooner or later, even devout Christian knightly knights travelling with two bishops :/

[dismal]

I had a look through the export_descr_guilds file.

There are three different types of guild points awarded "s", "a" and "o".

I think you are probably right that "s = settlement" and "a = agent". I would speculate that maybe "o" means "ongoing". The orders of magnitude of the numbers seem about right for that.

For examples, if you build an Abbey you get 20 theological guild points immediatetly, and 2 ongoing (i.e., per turn).

I really wonder what the "a" points do. One thing is clear, they are for events that can't be neatly tied to a settlement. Someof them can't be neatly tied to an agent either. Getting a pope elected gets you 30 "a" points, for example, but you no longer have the character. If you fail a thief mission you get negative "a" points, but which spy would get them?

On second thought, maybe the "a" means "all" settlements. In some ways, this makes more sense.

Also, to correct the OP, it looks like you get some "s" points for the Woodsman's guild by building the brothel line.

Also had a look through export_descr_ancillaries and guilds do trigger certain beneficial ancillaries. An explorers guild can help you get an Intrepid Explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, Marco Polo or Vasco De Gama for a governor or a Naval Navigator for an Admiral.

[Kobal2fr]

I had a look through the export_descr_guilds file.

There are three different types of guild points awarded "s", "a" and "o".

I think you are probably right that "s = settlement" and "a = agent". I would speculate that maybe "o" means "ongoing". The orders of magnitude of the numbers seem about right for that.

For examples, if you build an Abbey you get 20 theological guild points immediatetly, and 2 ongoing (i.e., per turn).

I really wonder what the "a" points do. One thing is clear, they are for events that can't be neatly tied to a settlement. Someof them can't be neatly tied to an agent either. Getting a pope elected gets you 30 "a" points, for example, but you no longer have the character. If you fail a thief mission you get negative "a" points, but which spy would get them?

On second thought, maybe the "a" means "all" settlements. In some ways, this makes more sense.

Also, to correct the OP, it looks like you get some "s" points for the Woodsman's guild by building the brothel line.

Also had a look through export_descr_ancillaries and guilds do trigger certain beneficial ancillaries. An explorers guild can help you get an Intrepid Explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, Marco Polo or Vasco De Gama for a governor or a Naval Navigator for an Admiral.

"o" for "overall" perhaps ? But overtime could work as well.

"a" for achievement instead of agent would be my guess.

[dopp]

The triggers for ancilliaries can be found in export_desc_ancilliaries. The chance of picking up a pagan magician is 2% every turn in any land where the population is less than 90% of your religion. No wonder they are so common. I think the trigger should has been reversed (ie it's a minor typo/bug). It should be if more than 90% of the population is NOT of your religion.

Another one is secret love. A flat 5% chance EVERY TURN for any princess to acquire one is just asking to be modded out. There are only 2 ancilliaries that give a princess bonus charm (and one of them isn't even working: there is no trigger for faithful servant) and plenty that take away (but most only trigger at birth based on the father's VnVs. There is also a tendency for princesses to acquire useless ancilliaries (tutor) on birth because the code doesn't include checks to exclude them from the triggers.

The rest seem mostly ok, ancilliaries have never been as harsh as say VnVs.

[supadodo]

Hey uh can someone help me here. Ok here it goes. Ive been past the gunpowder age and I want an alchemist guild to set up shop in my settlements. According to the export_desc_guilds, I am supposed to build cannons and handgunners and the cannon makers. SO I pump these guys out like mad but still no alchemist guild. Also there are no other guilds currentlly present in the cities which i am producing them and I've yet to see other factions towing a cannon with them. I'm Turks btw.

[Daveybaby]

@Kobal: Yeah, looks like youre right - they are added. Nice one - will change OP to reflect this.

I think i figured "a" was for agents, because most of those events are based around agents, e.g:

Trigger 0090_Exploring_Fleet
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

Condition AgentType = admiral
and DistanceCapital > 50
and DistanceCapital < 100

Guild explorers_guild a 3
But youre right, that could be achivements as well.

@dismal: i doubt "o" is "ongoing" - if those values were added every turn it wouldnt take much to get most of those guilds. "overall" seems much more sensible, which i took to mean "overall faction score".


Also, to correct the OP, it looks like you get some "s" points for the Woodsman's guild by building the brothel line.
Heh, yeah - i did have that in there already - but managed to somehow delete half of the line, along with half of another line regarding governor chivalry - oops. Fixed now.

@Supadodo: no idea sorry, we are feeling our way around this at the moment. I would suggest concentrate on pumping those cannons out of just one province and see what happens.

[dismal]

@dismal: i doubt "o" is "ongoing" - if those values were added every turn it wouldnt take much to get most of those guilds. "overall" seems much more sensible, which i took to mean "overall faction score".

Well, I am operating on the hypothesis that only settlements accrue guild points. We know settlements get them and how they use them, but have no idea what factions or agents would do with them.

2 or 3 points per turn doesn't strike me as all that excessive for an advanced building. I have gotten several master guilds and guild HQ's, and it doesn't seem like I've trained up anywhere near enough agents to get to 500 points.

If you built a cathedral, for example you'd only get a total of 70 "s" points. You'd have to train 43 priests there to get to 500 for the settlement on "s" points alone.

But if you are also getting 1, 2 then 5 "o" points per turn and some occasional "a" points from denouncements and cardinal or pope elections, making 500 seems reasonable within 100 turns or so.

I suppose this is a testable theory. We should be able to predict the exact turn a settlement would get offered a guild if we control for all the variables. Assuming they all start at zero guild points.

[Shahed]

Excellent thread here, been referring to it all day.

You know what's funny ? I just got an offer for Horse Breeder's Guild in a city where I never produced a single cavalry unit, BUT I held monthly races (to keep unrest down while I rush to catch up on contentment bonus buildings). I got the offer after like 3 turns. So you don't have to go through the whole build loads of cavalry, just hold races instead. Considering the recruitment cost and upkeep, you probably better off with monthly races. I'm taking about Turks, don't know if Catholic or Orthodox factions have racetracks.

BTW the Swordsmith's guild is basically out for the Turks as you can't build 2 guilds in the same location, hence you can't have a HashashiN Guild AND Swordsmith's Guild in the same city.

Any workaround for this ? Is there even any point to having the Swordsmith's Guild for Islamic factions, since you don't have any ' knights' ?

[dopp]

Swordsmiths give +1 attack to all melee troops. You can only get them offered in castles though. Islamic heavy cavalry counts as knights for recruitment purposes, I think, as do katatanks.

You could simply capture the swordsmiths off some hapless victims. Just about every AI castle I've captured has one. Imagine, endless streams of JHI queueing up at some "liberated" swordsmith to get +1 attack. Extra shiny halberds.

[Kraxis]

Btw, looking at the unit file I can't see any skin for upgraded weapons, but are there? Can you see upgraded weapons in battles? I ask because the game has refused to offer me any swordsmiths.

[Musashi]

I was offered a swordsmiths guild playing as Russia after building a crapload of woodsmen and dismounted Druzhina and Boyar's Sons... All of which are axe troops. So apparently axe troops count as sword based for the purposes of being offered a swordsmith's guild (My guess is it's just a matter of building non-spear infantry...)

[dopp]

Musashi is probably right... the game only differentiates between missile, spear and heavy infantry (sword, axe, halberd, bill) so building the heavy infantry should work. Hybrid units may count as either heavy infantry or missile depending on which aspect they emphasize more. Of course, historically spear and heavy infantry are pretty much the same thing (the French and English knights at Agincourt fought on foot in a "push of pike" using their lances) so the distinction is mostly an artificial one intended to improve gameplay.

Not all units have the upgraded weapon graphic. Your knights' lances get some sort of shiny chisel head and your spearmen get broad-bladed spears. Other than that it's hard to tell. Doesn't your unit card show the bronze weapon upgrade symbol?

[Trithemius]

Funny, for the turks, the only sword unit you listed for the swordsmith's guild is hashishim. but you can't build hashashim in a city unless you already have the hashashim guild! thus it appears you can never have the swordsmith's guild as the turns unless you build a LOT of armor factories:inquisitive:

I noted this as well. Extremely annoying actually. Also, all the likely foot units for swordsmith guild chance bonuses are built in cities - so it looks like you are out of luck if you want guilds in castles if you are a Turk. :(

[Trithemius]

Musashi is probably right... the game only differentiates between missile, spear and heavy infantry (sword, axe, halberd, bill) so building the heavy infantry should work. Hybrid units may count as either heavy infantry or missile depending on which aspect they emphasize more. Of course, historically spear and heavy infantry are pretty much the same thing (the French and English knights at Agincourt fought on foot in a "push of pike" using their lances) so the distinction is mostly an artificial one intended to improve gameplay.

Not all units have the upgraded weapon graphic. Your knights' lances get some sort of shiny chisel head and your spearmen get broad-bladed spears. Other than that it's hard to tell. Doesn't your unit card show the bronze weapon upgrade symbol?

The list of troops is mentioned in the initial post in this thread. I'm not sure if it follows any pattern really.

No halberd/bill/voluge using troops are mentioned - so JHI are out, and Dismounted Sipahi Lancers are spearmen, not swordsmen. Perhaps the Turks need Dismounted Sipahi (some kind of lighter swordsmen?) or something?

[supadodo]

I got the swordsmith guild once as the Turks in Constantinople shortly after I took it from the Byzantines which was quite early in game and it was not there in the first place because I got the guild offer message. Not sure how that happened because the only thing I trained there were spear and town militia. But when I restarted the campaign I never got it any more. I did get the Swordsmith HQ when I captured a citadel which had it. Now I'm trying to get my other fortresses a swordsmith but no luck. Oh and btw the alchemist guild finnaly showed and I mangage to get it to HQ also

[Trithemius]

I got the swordsmith guild once as the Turks in Constantinople shortly after I took it from the Byzantines which was quite early in game and it was not there in the first place because I got the guild offer message. Not sure how that happened because the only thing I trained there were spear and town militia. But when I restarted the campaign I never got it any more. I did get the Swordsmith HQ when I captured a citadel which had it. Now I'm trying to get my other fortresses a swordsmith but no luck. Oh and btw the alchemist guild finnaly showed and I mangage to get it to HQ also

I got an already built Master Swordsmith in Ragusa, and I was offered a Swordsmith in Thessalonica as well. So it looks like the "guild counter" for a settlement carries over regardless of how much the settlment changes hands?

[Shahed]

Oh that would be great, otherwise I'll have to churn Hashashamshims.

[RZST]

very informative =D

[Trithemius]

Oh that would be great, otherwise I'll have to churn Hashashamshims.

The "swordsman produced" event does not appear to have an o value, just an s value. If people are correct in saying that s = settlement count and o = overall count then the swordsmith guild does not get any o points from unit recruitment, unlike the horse-breeder guild.

Another blow for the hapless Turk! Maybe I will just have to add a swordsmith to Damascus? :(

[zulukiller]

Has anyone got the alchemist guild yet in game?, its the only guild ive not been othered as the english yet. I have the assasins guilds headquaters, theives guid headquaters, merchants guild headquaters, explorers guild headquaters, swordsman guild headquaters, masons guild headquaters & the woodsman guild headquaters.

I have noticed somthing though i did have the knights hospitilar and i was trying like mad to get the templars so in the end i destroyed the hospitilars and instantly next turn i was offered the templars (and every go after that all over the place). Now if i remember corretly in the original medieval:TW england could not have both hospitilar & templars at the same time they could only have one at a time. Ive got a feeling aswell that the english (maybe every faction) can only have one guild of a certain type as in you can only have one cavalry guild in your civ or one missle guild. Can anyone confirm this as i dont realy use the woodsman guild but i'd preffer not to destroy them to get the alchemist guild .

[FactionHeir]

I finally got the theologians guild as Milan, but with some oddities:

I got it at turn 97/98 and the next turn was immediately offered the masters version and the following another normal one.
Funny thing is, I used to pump out a lot of priests before and build all the catherdrals and huge versions, but only when I kind of stopped doing that and was focussing and killing the final enemy in my campaign (England) I suddenly got that offer.

Now I wonder, is it possible that you only get this guild after a certain amount of turns played maybe?

[dismal]

I finally got the theologians guild as Milan, but with some oddities:

I got it at turn 97/98 and the next turn was immediately offered the masters version and the following another normal one.
Funny thing is, I used to pump out a lot of priests before and build all the catherdrals and huge versions, but only when I kind of stopped doing that and was focussing and killing the final enemy in my campaign (England) I suddenly got that offer.

Now I wonder, is it possible that you only get this guild after a certain amount of turns played maybe?

It looks like the only prerequisite is that you are required to have a "city" to get a first level guild, a "large city" to get a Master guild, and a "huge city" to get a guild HQ. Plus the required guild points.

[macdaddy]

Thanx this post was very helpful.

I cranked out lots of churches, and made all priests in Milan and got a theologians guild very early, then cranked out mercantile buildings and all Merchants from Venice and got a merchants guild there very early as well, ditto with assassins guild in Bologna.

[Quillan]

I think the "s" stands for Settlement and "o" stands for Overall. What I believe happens is the game keeps track of different total points, settlement points just for that settlement to use to determine which guild(s) get offered there and overall points empire wide. Any city large enough to have a guild but lacking settlement points to qualify for one would be offered a guild which your overall points qualify for. I keep getting offered assassins guilds in cities where I've never trained an assassin. I expect the "a" stands for Agent, because you earn those points by agent actions, like a successful assassination, sabotage, or infiltration of a foreign settlement.

[Gustav II Adolf]

What if a stands for action. We seem to get points for producing and building. Could it be som sort of action points? I get a lot of theologians guilds as spaninsh when converting muslim lands. Maybe we need to use what we build.


G

[Kraxis]

What if a stands for action. We seem to get points for producing and building. Could it be som sort of action points? I get a lot of theologians guilds as spaninsh when converting muslim lands. Maybe we need to use what we build.


G
I would have to second that thought...

I was 'inactively' using my priests. Then I began a hearty 'upgrade' programme for them, so I could dominate the College without the need to kill the other cardinals (my good old assassins got old). Suddenly I get three Theologian Guild offers in a row after some time spent converting lands (one of my cardinals and his priest sidekick are having a convertion-battle with four imams near Nicaea).

[dismal]

I would have to second that thought...

I was 'inactively' using my priests. Then I began a hearty 'upgrade' programme for them, so I could dominate the College without the need to kill the other cardinals (my good old assassins got old). Suddenly I get three Theologian Guild offers in a row after some time spent converting lands (one of my cardinals and his priest sidekick are having a convertion-battle with four imams near Nicaea).

It probably doesn't really matter so much whether "a" stands for "agent", "action" or "all". What matters is what the game does with the points. This story seems pretty consistent with the view that "a" points are awarded to all your settlements.

A cardinal promotion gets you 10 "a" points, as does a denouncement. Converting population itself does not appear to earn points, but it does get you Cardinals.

[Kraxis]

Ahhh... Then it makes sense. I have gotten a whole load of cardinals lately. And some of them have been vicious killers of heretics (the agents not population... well them too). After I pruned the College down to four cadinals I haev almost exclusively been the one to repopulate it. I think I have 8 cardinals and there are three others.

[Eldon]

A few beliefs (to be tested this weekend) from my perusal of the export_descr_guilds.txt file to add to the OP.


The structure of each entry in the file looks similar to below:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0004_Normalise ##TriggerName
WhenToTest SettlementTurnStart ##When triggered

Condition I_TurnNumber > 25 ##Condition to be met

Guild all s -1 ##(Category label) (guild type(or all/this keyword) (a,s,o) (#points)

So what i think happens is that the game keeps a running tally of how many points each settlement has 'earned' towards each and every guild type.
When you meet a condition points are assigned either to a=all settlements, s=settlement that triggered, o=all other settlements. I believe that's what the letters stand for as all triggers with 'a' points are for things like trade agreements and the actions of spies, assasins where it doesn't make sense to tie things to a particular settlement. As well, some triggers give both 's' + 'o' points, or, 'a' points, but you never see 'a'+'s' / 'a'+'o'.

As well, I believe the OP is wrong on the normalise value - you lose 1 point from every guild tally in every settlement every turn after turn #25, not every 25 turns.

Ok, so that's great info for the modders, but what does it mean for play, huh?

Well, explains why i always seem to get theives guild offers so soon - every spy mission adds to tally for every settlement, throw in a couple of brothel-line buildings, and spy trainings at a particular settlement and voila = theif guild offer. The assassin's/Hashashim guild works much the same, just a little slower as there's less/harder triggers.

So, use those spies, assassins, priests and merchants actively ie don't just let them sit there doing there passive thing, make them spy, kill (not sabotage??), burn and acquire.

Some guild-specific tips:
Explorer's guild - train merchants and send fleets to far away lands

Alchemists/Swordsmith's guild - train and build gunpowder/sword line stuff (units as listed in OP).

Might be obvious, but appears Woodsmens guild is England faction only based on this file alone let alone any hard-codedness that might exist (would be very difficult for any other faction to get, esp anything higher than 1st level).

Mason's guild - will take a while just build, build, build as per OP

Horse breeder's guild - a tricky one as is city-based guild but really requires the training of cavalry to level up (except I think muslim factions can easily train cavalry in cities). Tip: as spain produce Jinetes from the plaza del toro. Not sure about workarounds for other western factions (races maybe), if none exist then u'll just have to produce 100's of cavalry from your castles!!!!

Various Knight's Chapter Houses - Hospitaller's are easier to get than Templars. Hospitaller's (St Johns) have extra triggers to earn points - DoW on islamic factions (no need to actually fight battles!!!) and neighbour islamic factions.

Can't see any workaround atm for muslim factions re swordsmith guild catch-22 (have an idea but need to test it....)

Also, need to test - if reach points for two guilds at same time, what order are guilds allocated in? Do you get a guild offer the moment you satisfy the threshold, or does this just satisfy part i) of a further random chance condition?

[Zoltan]

For the Horse Breeders guild for western factions, doesnt the merchant militia cav count towards getting it?

[Eldon]

For the Horse Breeders guild for western factions, doesnt the merchant militia cav count towards getting it?

Yes, it would.....but.....you can only have one guild per settlement, as far as I'm aware (certainly that's what the manual says).
This leads into my thinking on the possible workaround for the muslim factions re swordsmith's guilds. It should be possible to 'tech' up the required points with the assasin's guild making lots (34+ for the top level guild!!!) of hashashim, then destroy the assasin's guild and wait for the swordsmith guild to happen (or merchant's for HB guild and cav). Of course, you'd have to wear the GuildDestroyed costs ie -100 from that settlement for that guild (no matter as you've finished with it there anyway), but also -20 to all other settlements chances at the guild you just destroyed (though that's only one succesful assasination or 2 trained merchant's/acquisitions respectively). And, of course you have to beat the other factions to the top level guilds!

I don't think it would be too hard to add a trigger to the file for an appropriate muslim unit so that they can get the guild more easily.

[Daveybaby]

So what i think happens is that the game keeps a running tally of how many points each settlement has 'earned' towards each and every guild type.
Yeah, i think that's pretty much been the assumption all the way through.


When you meet a condition points are assigned either to a=all settlements, s=settlement that triggered, o=all other settlements. I believe that's what the letters stand for as all triggers with 'a' points are for things like trade agreements and the actions of spies, assasins where it doesn't make sense to tie things to a particular settlement. As well, some triggers give both 's' + 'o' points, or, 'a' points, but you never see 'a'+'s' / 'a'+'o'.
Good stuff, that makes an awful lot more sense than my bodged interpretation of it. Will edit the OP to make more sense in that case


As well, I believe the OP is wrong on the normalise value - you lose 1 point from every guild tally in every settlement every turn after turn #25, not every 25 turns.
Hmmm... i'd figured that 1 point every turn was a bit harsh, and would probably wipe out any gains far too quickly (i'd figured I_TurnNumber was an Increment in turns since the last time the event was triggered), and you'd have to gain another 200 points over the course of the game in order to get those guild HQs.

But having said that, 1 point every 25 turns is pretty low - only 9 points throughout a normal speed game - so youre probably correct.

[dopp]

Just convert one of your castles to a city and you'll get a horse breeders' guild. I got tired of waiting for swordsmith in Toledo and switched, got a horse breeder next turn.

My other post got eaten somehow so I'll post again on how to tweak so that Muslims get swordsmith. Do a search in the guild file for "TrainedUnitCategory". You will see a trigger that gives horse breeder points for building cavalry. Since cavalry get bonuses from swordsmiths and you can't have a horse breeder in a castle (or a swordsmith in a city), It stands to reason that building cavalry could also contribute towards swordsmithing (another point is that cav get shiny lances when they upgrade while swords mostly don't). Change or copy the trigger and make it give guild points for swordsmith too.

[Eldon]

Hmmm... i'd figured that 1 point every turn was a bit harsh, and would probably wipe out any gains far too quickly (i'd figured I_TurnNumber was an Increment in turns since the last time the event was triggered), and you'd have to gain another 200 points over the course of the game in order to get those guild HQs.

But having said that, 1 point every 25 turns is pretty low - only 9 points throughout a normal speed game - so youre probably correct.

I figured it was If TurnNummber > 25 so as to let you get things up and running in the very early stages when you can't probably afford to specialise. Then they start taking -1 from everything so as to make you(from manual):
Keep working for upgrades
you will need to cotinue to support your guild's interests
to receive an offer to upgrade it to the next rank of building.
Thus only factions that truly focus on something find a
guild HQ in their lands.


Just convert one of your castles to a city and you'll get a horse breeders' guild.

D'oh!! So obvious!! That would be much easier!



Since cavalry get bonuses from swordsmiths and you can't have a horse breeder in a castle (or a swordsmith in a city), It stands to reason that building cavalry could also contribute towards swordsmithing (another point is that cav get shiny lances when they upgrade while swords mostly don't). Change or copy the trigger and make it give guild points for swordsmith too.


Not sure I understand you, but atm the file doesn't include any triggers for cavalry units to contribute to swordsmith guilds. Or, are you suggesting to make new triggers for muslim cavalry units so they can get swordsmith guild that way?

[dopp]

Yes. That's what I meant. Just have one general trigger that gives points for creating cavalry units for any faction.

[andrewt]

I've noticed that swordsmith guilds don't give melee bonuses to missile units. Since JHI are city trained and hybrids don't get melee bonuses, swordsmith guilds aren't as useful for the Turks. Only a few units would seem to be able to get the bonuses.

Also, I'm playing the Russians and can't get a thieves' guild hq even building spies on one building almost exclusively. The problem is that the Polish, Hungarians, Germans and Byzantines built a lot of spies and had thieves' guild everywhere. I had to destroy quite a lot to get other, more useful guilds.

[LestaT]

Probably it's just me but whenever I play either the Turks or the Egyptian the only guild that I were offered is the Assasin Guild. :help:

Never seems to be the case when I played England and Sicily.

Not whining, just an observation. Maybe because I modded something to the files.

[sapi]

Great work on the guide mate.

If i see it disappear to the second page of the forums i'll sticky it, but otherwise I think you'll find more people look at it when it's not ;)

[Daveybaby]

If i see it disappear to the second page of the forums i'll sticky it, but otherwise I think you'll find more people look at it when it's not ;)Cheers dude. ~:) Econ's already put it in the FAQ sticky, so this probably doesnt need to be stickied on its own.

[ergothead]

Woodsman's Guild
Recruit archers (England only!): +10/15/20 settlement (depending on unit)
Build brothel series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/2/5 others
Governor with chivalry >4: +5 settlement (per turn?)


are you sure brothel is the building line? Bowyer would make more sense.

[Skott]

I find that Thieves Guilds and Theologians Guilds the two most common and easiest guilds to get no matter what you do in the game. Explorers, Swordsmiths, and Knights (Templars, Hospitalers, etc.,) the next easiest to get.

I find the guild missions more useless than the Council of Nobles and Pope missions. They want you to carry out some silly scheme of theirs that most of the time doesnt work to your advantage in any shape or form. CA should have put in a 'Mission Turned Down' feature in this game so a player can turn down a mission and try to get something better to work with his campaign strategy.

[yogol]

I noted this as well. Extremely annoying actually. Also, all the likely foot units for swordsmith guild chance bonuses are built in cities - so it looks like you are out of luck if you want guilds in castles if you are a Turk. :(

The same with Egypt :( I tried to get that guild but I couldn't. Tabardariyya with the weapon upgrade would rule even more !

In my next Egypt game, I'll take a castle from someone and keep the guild, instead of tearing it down to make a merchant, me think.

[FactionHeir]

Necromancy is bad.