View Full Version : What happened to my beloved Swiss
CrownOfSwords
12-05-2006, 20:42
Anyone that would like to mod them into a faction would have my greatest gratitude, I miss my huge armies of pikemen and halbierers.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
12-05-2006, 21:05
Well, Swiss Pikemen are still avaliable as mercenary units in the late era in the Germany area.
In 1080 the "Swiss" were truely "Germans". They were part of the Imperium Romanum (later called Sacrum Imperium Romanum = HRE). They counted themselves among the "upper German countries" (oberdeutsche Lande) maybe till the war of 1499. From then on the Swiss Confederation was really independent in fact but became a true state of its own first in 1648 with the peace of Münster and Osnabrück.
Because there are no eras in M2TW it would be another unhistoric touch (added to the many existing) to make the Confederation a faction too early on. But it would indeed be very nice to field the mighty confederate armies of the late 15th century!
Vintage318
12-07-2006, 10:40
I'm pretty sure during the period where this game takes place, Swiss were more noted for their mercenaries due to geopolitical circumstances etc. The time where this game's campaign starts, it's pretty much safe to say Swiss wasn't even united. It was a bunch of little states.
If you want something similar, try Portugal... They have an excellent pike unit (Aventuros) and late game they get Musketeers... I think they may be the only faction in the whole game who get a super-elite pike unit and muskets to back them up.
Aventuros are better than Swiss pikemen. Same stats, partial plate armor (Swiss are unarmored). They are impetuous though, which causes a little problem. Why pikemen, who rely on formation, should then be so eager to break it is a complete mystery to me.
Vlad Tzepes
12-07-2006, 12:53
. Why pikemen, who rely on formation, should then be so eager to break it is a complete mystery to me.
Maybe they really-really hate their job and dream about becoming somebody different :laugh4: :laugh4:
And Swiss were in fact German subjects... until late XV century... Remember Wilhelm Tell? (his protest sparked a struggle for independence and, finally, The Swiss Federation)
Impetuous or not they're still deadly (Borderline frightening actually... With those stats they need a weakness lol).
I'd actually have to say that Portugal is the faction for an infantry commander. Pike Militia and Crossbow Militia at the start, Aventuros and Pavise Crossbowmen or even Musketeers later, and they have Jinettes, which are well up in the top 3 Light Cavalry units in the game (And if you're a late period style pike and crossbow (Or pike and musket) commander, you want light cavalry).
They don't even get shafted when it comes to heavy cav... I mean they don't have Lancer or Gothic Knight quality cav but they don't suck either. I'm not exactly sure what their weakness is... Their artillery is fine too (Culverin, Cannon, Basilisk)... The only thing you could possibly complain about is the lack of a Serpentine :)
Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.
Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.
To the Swiss: they were not subject to Germans, they were Germans themselves as the people who first swore an oath to fight for their old liberties (which were granted by the German emperor) spoke in a German tongue. The three original cantons were part of the Habsburg estates and the struggle of "Wilhelm Tell" (who never existed) was against the Habsburg dukes.
In theory the Confederation (it was not a Federation, the Swiss united to have not to unite too much) was part of the empire till 1648.
Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.
Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.
Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.
This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.
You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.
Spendius
12-07-2006, 13:26
What happened to my beloved Swiss ?
They got cheesed...
Sorry.
Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.
This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.
You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.
I concur. Pikemen does not function in the way they should. They are really good in defence but suck when attacking. That is not fine. Every half-trained peasant can grap a pike and form a strong defensive formation. What the Swiss invented (back) was the aggressive use of the pike. Given proper landscape, the strong discipline and the superior fighting moral of the Swiss Gewalthaufen could wipe out nearly everything. That this was not easy to achieve is shown by the great defeat the Scottish suffered at Flodden Edge trying to cope Swiss tactics without proper training and moral, but with a bloody little ditch at the location.
Best thing would be to give some pikemen (f.e. Swiss, Landsknechts, Tercio Pikemen etc.) special battle commands which not every pikemen unit (esp. militia units) can obey.
The pike was one of the core weapons of the time between 1470 and 1600 and should get some love from CA or modders.:yes:
troymclure
12-07-2006, 14:01
Swiss armoured pikeman from the orignal MTW were awesome. I remember there was mod where you could play as them. I'm pretty sure it made your General a SAP and with the way valour and generals worked back it made for an insane combination.
RIP SAP. :(
The more elite pikemen are highly_trained, which is supposed to affect their response time and formation-keeping ability. I'm testing to see if it really makes any difference.
Yes, the Swiss didn't have cavalry bodyguards in MTW. They had SAPs. Valor 9 generals with SAP bodyguards. That's like 3 gold chevrons in M2TW. The Byz had katatanks as their bodyguards. I had so many ex-princes with valor 7-9 katatank bodyguards that I never had to train a single unit of regular ones even in my longest campaigns.
Pikemen in MTW were horrible. You were better off with Gothic sergeants.
The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.
troymclure
12-07-2006, 15:37
That's right, that's why boyars where so uber in medieval. I also completely forgot about all the different bodyguards and the fact that you kept the unit after the general died. Fond memories of destroying rebels playing early russia and using only your king and his sons to do it. :)
I can see why they use the current system but the other one did make for some cool times as well.
Mailman653
12-07-2006, 18:51
And don't forget, the Papal States have the Swiss guard, an elite unit.
CrownOfSwords
12-07-2006, 21:21
Yeah, idk im finding the game irritating until they fix all the animation glitches. Yeah i had play a campaign as the papal states to play around with the swiss guard. Id still like to see someone mod them as a faction though.
regarding the swiss: the foundation was a renewal of an alliance between 3 small regions around lake lucerne in 1291. this was an alliance against the greedy habsburg lords. they made pacts with other cities and valley settlements and formed the "eight old towns" federation by 1353. We were part of the HRE until 1499 (not in a formal, but in a practical sense, since emperor Maximilian I. lost most of his influence after the so called "peace of Basel".
The myth of the unbeatable swiss (they were feared for their ferociousness and discipline even after heavy losses) ended with the federations bitter loss at the battle of Marigniano in 1515 against France (and thus ended their position as a political and military powerhouse in western europe).
I badly miss my SAP and halberdiers from MTW1... but I AM swiss, so I might be biased :)
I echo the bodyguard sentiments. Even in RTW, the bodyguards were different. I think the British and Egyptians had chariot bodyguards. The Roman bodyguards had javelins, I think. I forgot the bodyguards for Pontus and Parthia but I think they were a bit different as well.
I also miss the old kataphraktoi. I think the ones in MTW2 are inferior to most of the later Catholic knights in stats. In MTW, they were equivalent to chivalric in stats, I believe, but slower. However, you do get them early.
Kobal2fr
12-07-2006, 23:57
The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.
Not only that, but any unit could house a general.
I remember, playing as the French in Early, the first Urban Militia you built always had Godefroy de Bouillon (4 star general, and historical French hero) as its leader. Any unit could get command stars as long as it acted as a general unit in a won battle.
With the RTW engine, either nothing happens, or you get "Man of the Hour" and boom, instant heavy cav, out of the blue. It's disconcerting.
I liked having super generals in totally useless units. I've had conquering lords born from peasant garrison units being sieged again and again and again. Made for a whole other point of view on warfare - truth is, most generals were not William Gibson Claymore-Swingin' Gladiator, they were just the brains behind the brunt. Alexander Nevsky wasn't a horse-walloper, he was Town Militia at best, AND a tactical genius nevertheless. Harald Hardrada was a good general who never fought on horseback and so on... but in RTW/M2TW, every named general is heavy cav. We lost something there, I think.
Yeah I liked how any unit could be a general too (If my memory isn't going, didn't they retain their original unit type even if they ended up being adopted?)... Since I love playing an infantry army I'm often irked by the need to bring a unit of Heavy Cav when I'd prefer all infantry and Light Cav.
Though it is kind of wierd when your conquering general steadfastly refuses to abandon his original mob of peasant bodyguards, forcing you to drag them along everywhere... him upgrading to a cavalry bodyguard in RTW onwards does make a bit of sense.
I liked the fact that the catholic bodyguards were 1 HP and only 20 strong regardless of size. 20 2 HP is strong enough for my tastes, while the insane 59 2 HP very heavy cavalry we can get now is downright too strong.
I don't like the fact that generals themselves often form the most potent and used unit in the army. After all their men regenerate, while eth MTW bodyguards had to be retrained. I remember I had quite a few generals running around with no bodyguard at all, just that single man on his horse.
After all their men regenerate, while eth MTW bodyguards had to be retrained.
Though this had the obvious drawback that your general's bodyguard units were un-retrainable for much of the early game. It took forever to get to the point where you could retrain the Catholic bodyguard units.
Yes... but that just made sure that you didn't just throw them in unless it was crucial. They were generals first, fighters second.
Besides you only needed the lowest of the knightly buildings to retrain them, you got them even before Feudal Knights. So basically any place had them very fast. Or you could get them very fast...
I think the swiss arent in the game because they will be the Add-on :idea2:
CrownOfSwords
12-08-2006, 01:15
lol i like how my swiss discussion turned into stuff about bodyguards, i totally agree though i hate how all the factions have like the same bodyguards essentially its bs. I would also like the damned general to stay in the back of his guards or atleast make them much harder to kill gets irritating seeing my general die charging. Im going to try out the portugal suggestion I havent started a campaign as them yet. But yeah I dont really care about the accuracy with the swiss thing, make them start as a vassal to the HRE or something i just wanna play my swiss. And yes i am swiss hence the obsession.
How about not using the general in a frontline service against units that can potentially kill him? The last thing we need right now are stronger bodyguards. They are already 2 HP and stronger than most heavy cavalry statswise...
I tend to build up my generals, letting other units weaken teh enemy or let them deal with the dangeorus enemies, while my general deal with archers, peasants (can be dangerous though) and the like. Then when he has gotten a few good virtues to his HP or morale, I begin taking on stronger enemies, though never units that has the potential to defeat the general quickly. That means spears in general, unless they are marching.
CrownOfSwords
12-08-2006, 01:24
No but ive seen my general die in some ridiculous instances like charging trebuchet crewsmen and just watching the animation of him flying off the horse give me a break. Im sick of these over powered crewsmen as well those little peasant bastards should be fleeing like crazy before any knights even charged them.
Kobal2fr
12-08-2006, 02:18
How about not using the general in a frontline service against units that can potentially kill him? The last thing we need right now are stronger bodyguards. They are already 2 HP and stronger than most heavy cavalry statswise...
I tend to build up my generals, letting other units weaken teh enemy or let them deal with the dangeorus enemies, while my general deal with archers, peasants (can be dangerous though) and the like. Then when he has gotten a few good virtues to his HP or morale, I begin taking on stronger enemies, though never units that has the potential to defeat the general quickly. That means spears in general, unless they are marching.
My problem is not really about generals surviving. I know how to keep my generals alive. The problem is more along the lines of generals being very, very powerful attack units on top of being morale and stat boosters.
Half of the original Jedi general problem lied there : the AI has an ultimate morale, powreful attack unit in its roster, so it uses it offensively. That's it. Either the general somehow died, and the whole AI army collapsed, or the general just *wouldn't die* and killed your whole army all by himself.
CA has, overtime and overgames, tried to get around this by making generals more hardy, and tweak/trick the AI into not using them as much, but the point is : heavy cav generals were über units. They were tanks. They were very, very hard to kill, they never ever fled, and they killed everything very, very quickly. No wonder the AI charged them head-on. The AI didn't factor in the fact that when it lost him, everything was lost.
That's why they toned down the general's death-effect in M2, why they upped overall morale and why they turned down the effect of command stars too : it's their solution to the suicidal general issue - make him matter less. Make him just a single, unique über unit.
That's the way I see it anyway.
I wish generals boosted troops like they used to do, and be just as very, very hard to kill as they are right now, but didn't kill anything, ever. -10 attack, on foot, peasant-scratching-his-arse animation looping. Probably not true to history, but making sense and being balanced gameplay wise. AND it would help with the suicidal AI general thing as well.
It is rather irritating when your General is the one who goes down due to random chance on a successful charge into a weak unit.
Of course this happens a lot less once your General starts getting the "scarred" traits...
Either way though I want my Boyars back!
Well the general starts out with several more HP than his bodyguards, it used to be 4, but now I don't know, could be less.
In any case I was surprised in a custom battle that my knights seemed to lance down their own general (in the same unit), since he died and the enemy units were nowhere near enough to do it.
So chances are that the enemy units simply can't suck all those HP out of the general. 2 HP they might, but not 4 on the very first charge.
But in any case... he is the general, do try to take care of him.
Playing my French campaign I lost 3 family members in quick succession, all from the same thing, they died on their first charge, at the moment of impact, on successful charges into the flanks of low quality units.
So it is a problem.
I have yet to experience such a thing... Not a single time.
I have only lost generals and family members through protracted melee, or unfortunate circumstances. Never through a successful charge, and I have charged Armoured Spearmen, DFKs and other tough nuts head on. In fact one general I tried to kill off managed to kill not only a unit of DFK head on, but also a unit of Armoured Spearmen. And this was before he got any traits that helped him.
I use my generals in all my battles more or less, and they generally suffer quite a few casualties in all.
So I would just say that you have been hugely unfortunate.
Did you check them out prior to battle? If they were from the same branch of the family they might have suffered from the same 'illness', which gave a hit to hitpoints. Also ifthey weren't the commanding general, they don't get the general's bonus to HP, and as such become just as fragile as their bodyguards (which isn't terribly fragile but more fragile than otherwise).
If you keep your general out of combat or if you only use him to attack the enemy general then he gains chivalry traits. Out of combat... sounds like something you do with a healer to rez ded peeps after a wipe.
I have yet to experience such a thing... Not a single time.
I have only lost generals and family members through protracted melee, or unfortunate circumstances. Never through a successful charge, and I have charged Armoured Spearmen, DFKs and other tough nuts head on. In fact one general I tried to kill off managed to kill not only a unit of DFK head on, but also a unit of Armoured Spearmen. And this was before he got any traits that helped him.
I use my generals in all my battles more or less, and they generally suffer quite a few casualties in all.
So I would just say that you have been hugely unfortunate.
Did you check them out prior to battle? If they were from the same branch of the family they might have suffered from the same 'illness', which gave a hit to hitpoints. Also ifthey weren't the commanding general, they don't get the general's bonus to HP, and as such become just as fragile as their bodyguards (which isn't terribly fragile but more fragile than otherwise).
They were France's starting generals... I lost them all in separate battles... Every one of them was charging crossbowmen of all things. From the flank!
Then I can only say that it was a series of flukes... Or it could be that they were in fact hit by bolts and weakened enough.
Also mind the custom battle incident I mentioned. When you charge the flank of a unit, the general is supposed to get on the far side, and not really get involved as it is generally only the central men that do. At times however the cavalry will converge on the center and as such he could have been lanced by his own men (which seems to be possible as per my custom battle).
Also, I have also charged units in the flank, and some of the knights that then took the long way down the rear and front sometimes just died because as they went past the enemy troops would each get a hit in on them, and that seems to be what happened in your case.
Well, I actually moved them into position, allowed them to form up, and then single clicked to attack, and got a perfectly formed charge...
The crossbowmen weren't even firing at them, they were firing at my crossbows and spearmen...
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