View Full Version : Questionable feature [replacements from retraining are experienced]
When retraining units, they retain all gained experience regardless of numbers. Case in point, I had a unit of Dismounted Crusader Knights with only 5 men left in it, which gained a tremendous amount of experience thanks to cutting down routing troops. Didn't take long for them to reach exp. 9, three gold chevrons. So I retrained them, effectively adding to the unit 115 men without battlefield experience. Still, all 120 men now fight with exp. 9. :inquisitive:
IIRC this was not the case in RTW, so either it's a mistake or a conscious redesign. Regardless, it ought to be changed back. It's not as if human players need yet another feature to outsmart the AI(there's plenty enough of that thankyouverymuch).
Apologies if it has been discussed before, did not find any mention in the bug list or in any thread on the first few pages.
Daveybaby
12-07-2006, 12:23
It's intentional.
It was the same in RTW, but in STW and MTW retraining filled in the gaps with green troops.
It does make far too easy to get highly trained units, but in its favour it has removed a lot of the tedious stack micromanagement we had to do in order to achieve that. Also, in STW and MTW the AI never really cottoned on to doing this, giving the player too much of an advantage.
Whoz'onE
12-07-2006, 12:24
I agree that this is rather odd, especially as if you combine two units the experience is averaged out (after a fashion).
Perhaps a 9xp unit which is retrained from 50% to full complement ought to average out at 5xp or 6xp, to reflect some value of training and fighting with experienced colleagues.
I think it is a big issue in RTW, as AFAIK, you get +1 attack/ +1 defence per level of experience. So with 9 levels of experience, you can have an uber unit with +9 attack/defence. In PBMs I play, we tend to impose a "no retraining" house rule to avoid this unrealistic effect being exploited.
In M2TW, the benefit of experience has been toned down a lot - the maximum 9 levels only give you +3 attack/defence. Given the wide range in unit stats (and the fact they don't seem to determine combat effectiveness as closely as in RTW), that does not seem such a big deal. Personally, I would not seek to impose it as a house rule in a M2TW PBM - especially given the new limits on how many units can be retrained per turn.
I think you could rationalise such a modest advantage to replacements from the beneficial spillover effects of joining a cadre of veterans who could teach newbies the ropes. For example, I know some have criticised the formation of large elite military corps because they remove such potential cadres of excellent soldiers from line units and so disproportionately lower their overall effectiveness.
In M2TW, the benefit of experience has been toned down a lot - the maximum 9 levels only give you +3 attack/defence. Given the wide range in unit stats (and the fact they don't seem to determine combat effectiveness as closely as in RTW), that does not seem such a big deal.
While true, it still strikes me as a very illogical feature. Still, not that big a deal. BTW, do you know if those extra chevrons are just deadweight or if they provide other boni such as better morale?
Blackboots
12-07-2006, 21:49
I consider this an exploit, so I try to avoid it. After a battle, I merge what troops I can into the best units, leaving less experienced units to be retrained. Plus, this keeps my experienced troops in the front line while the n00bs run back and forth to the castle.
I'm no Latin expert, but I don't think 'boni' is a word. Anyone?
Barry Fitzgerald
12-07-2006, 22:06
Pros and cons on this one IMO. On the pro side...experience doesnt bolster the stats so much..meaning more balance. On the downside, you can go into battle with newbie units and not be at a significant disadvantage..also gone are the mega hard units that could turn the battle in themselves.
Not mad my mind up on this one....
I did like the experience of having a couple of hard as nails Carthaginian Sacred band units....that could just fight down to the last man...and give em hell!
Less incined about babysitting veteran units now..in MTW2..
Jury is out on this...guess it is down to taste.
I'm with Blackboots, however it is impossible to really get away from it, as often you will merge and have a few men left in a unit to be retrained. Unfortunately the merging take the least experienced men first, so if you have a few men left they are likely to be considerably more experienced. And as such, you are 'forced' to retrain a very experienced unit. And the end result is that this unit is then the strongest you might have, which seems odd, when the others have been fighting much more and more effectively. The retrained unit can easily be seveal silver chevrons, while the units that did better might not be more than two bronze.
So getting units to level up through combat is thus made redundant, as it is much better, and easier, to just retrain.
Not only does it away with careful usage of units, it removes the feel of elite units. There is no special feeling of a unit that has been carefully kept and 'trained' in combat so that now it is what you can consider the best your army has to offer. Right now such a unit is likely to be several levels lower than many others that have just been retrained. Seems counterproductive to me.
To me it is like going to the troops "Hey you seven othere there... you are the most decorated in your unit? Good. Now will you come with me. No, don't worry about the others, they are going to fill the ranks of other units while we get back to the castle so I can clone you for my superarmy."
And while this might help the AI to even the score a bit, it was never a problem when you had what amounted to elites, that were just two levels up from green. They were definately better, but not so much that it became a serious handicap for the AI.
I despise this feature severely, mostly because I can't really avoid it (I really don't like to disband units and such). Had it just transferred the most experienced troops during merges, then it would be much much much better.
The manual states retraining reduce the units experience. This sounds logical but this is not true and I consider it a bug too. Because the retrained unit retains its experience and this creates a serious disbalance. I recently looked more carefully at my emergence service stack of hospitaliers and... all the units are golden! Without using the merging exploit (use the unit with the highest experience to merge in the others, but don't use it entirely - retrain it and use it for merging etc...) - so as I said without using the merge exploit, but just by winning battles and retraining. Now they are unstoppable and easily win against every stack in non-siege battles.
So its a bug that your battle-hardened troops do better in combat than when they were combat naive?
The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.
So actually when you have very high experience unit remnants you should NOT merge them with lower experience units. You should retrain the unit remnant and create a full strength unit.
I think if your armies are more powerful after combat that is good. Whether the particular units you use are over-powered - that is a different issue.
Alexander the Pretty Good
12-11-2006, 00:51
What Handel is saying is that retraining a unit should reduce its experience - the replacements should be less experienced and there should be a sacrifice in restoring a unit to full strength. There wasn't in Rome and apparently there isn't in Medieval 2.
It's technically not a bug but a feature - a really gimmicky feature that makes the game easier.
FactionHeir
12-11-2006, 01:02
Not quite, Alexander.
In RTW, retraining actually lowered unit experience considerably, but in M2TW it does not.
Barry Fitzgerald
12-11-2006, 01:54
I will second that. I played RTW to death..and you most def did lose experience with green troops into a veteran unit.
At this stage it is hard to say if this is a MTW2 feature..or an oversight...
This is obviosly a bug. It is stated firmly in the manual the replacements are green.
rory_20_uk
12-11-2006, 02:30
I agree that with the old system of decent troops could only be got through combat did require micromanagement, but I didn't and don't think that it is such a bad thing - especially when the AI doesn't retrain (something that there has beenample time to rectify).
Getting elite units and keeping them did require thought. Do you throw them in each and every conflict as your losses will be lower, or save them as a strategic reserve in case of problems? If you can chuck them into every fight only to replenish whenever seems pretty stupid.
~:smoking:
People this was a 'feature' in RTW as well.
Some people began noticing something wa not right, then finally somebody trained a Bireme or something up to 3 golds, then retrained the remaining few men. Bam! Instant 3 gold ship. I even beleive there were screenshots as it was all very new, and people had been bickering over the issue for weeks.
And I definately remember the elite retraining in my RTW... So I wonder what you were playing. MTW perhaps? That was indeed free from elite retraining.
Andsince the manual says that retraining should deplete experience, I would have to say something got lost somewhere. Personally I just think that CA never noticed this, and actually believed/believes that retraining indeed does deplete experience. Hence why change anything for M2?
I would love to ask a dev if this is a feature or something that shouldn't be. That could settle this once and for all.
Yeah I'd like to know as well.
Though it is nice to have 3 gold chevron troops but it's really fake. I've got about 8, 3 gold chevron Turcomen in my current campaign. It's awesome to play with them, all of them are snipers, send them straight for the enemy general and they shoot him down in a hail of arrows, while on the move ! It's awesome to watch though, cinematic !
But it is feeble so I stopped retraining. I merge units and produce fresh ones to feed field armies.
Ars Moriendi
12-11-2006, 08:52
I'm all for NOT exploiting the game mechanics, and the way the replacements work now is wide open to exploits.
Still, it has one big advantage :
You build up one unit, you watch them slowly grow into an elite to be feared, you become attached to them... Then, one battle, you do something stupid. Like letting your uber 9exp vardariotay chase some routers, then forgetting the skirmish off only to find them later almost wiped out by some lowly militias gangin up on them. When that happens I send them off (secretly:creep:) to the nearest retraining center. And voila!, my gold unit is back ! And then I pretend the stupid mistake never happened ~;)
Eh, just keep hitting M after battles and only retrain the leftovers...
Somebody Else
12-11-2006, 08:54
If it's that much of a problem, and you still want/need to merge units. Just merge them back and forth. You'll end up with the depleted unit with very low experience after 3 or 4 swaps...
Whoz'onE
12-11-2006, 09:57
The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.
I think the point is that if you take 20/61 4xp troops and merge them with 50/61 0xp troops you get 61/61 1xp or 2xp troops and 9/61 4xp or even 5xp troops which can then be retrained to full strength. Et voila! You have produced two full units with 2xp and 5xp respectively from a set of green troops and some 4xp ones.
I like the new system... It was too frustrating (Darn near impossible) to get a unit to full experience in MTW, even a few casualties in a battle meant an experience drop when you retrained them...
Well, it is better just to cheat. Especially when this creates the fully legal HUGE exploit with merging.
But... well... after that someone my look in the mirror and say "Oh my! How great am I"
FactionHeir
12-11-2006, 14:54
While it differs from the information in the manual AND from how it worked in RTW, i think it would be reasonable to ask whether CA intended full experience retrains in M2TW and made that decision after manuals went to print.
The supporting point would be that valor doesn't count for too much anymore and +3off/deff is the max you can get whereas it was more than that before (i think)
I would prefer a bit different effect from experience and a return to MT1 style retraining xp mechanic.
Most of all, I hate that I cannot see the effect of experience on unit stats in any way other than the +1/3xp. There are clearly some hidden benefits related to cavalry xp and charging, and I think also missile unit xp affects the killing efficiency even if the missile stat remains unchanged.
I would prefer to see some small benefit for each xp chevron. Something like:
1xp : +1 morale
2xp : +1 primary stat - either attack (missiles get missile stat, melee gets attack) or defense (if a defensive unit, like spear)
3 xp : +1 secondary stat (reverse of attack and defence from 2xp)
And so on...
This way you would feel good about getting any xp and you'd always feel warm and fuzzy inside when you have a stack full of experienced troops. At least more so than now.
Now, why is it so difficult to show this in the stats? Is it because the effects are not merely unit stat numbers, but also somehow affect reloading time/unit cohesion when charging etc. ?
FactionHeir
12-11-2006, 15:33
I agree, there should be benefits to every single experience chevron, not just 1 for every 3. Otherwise the intermediate levels are of no use.
We actually don't know if there are morale bonusses... Could very well be.
But I loved how it felt to create an elite army, or just an elite corps of troops, to use in desperate battles, or on a pressed front. That was great! The men almost all had a personal story of heroism. And they were definately better than the enemy troops, but not so much that they trampled all over them. You were just certain that they took fewer losses and could hold out in troubled situations. And the fact that you yourself had created them, and just been awarded them for nothing, felt absolutely great.
Also it seems experience helps archers and teh likes a lot more than melee troops. Sinan's example of 3 gold Turkomans, seems to fit my experience of archers as well. They get more lethal as the experience grows, to the point that a machinegun would be the only thing better. In horse archers that is just downright cheap. And since it is so terribly easy to get these 3 gold units, especially cavalry (routers anyone, they seem to count as much as regular kills which they shouldn't), what is the point? Just kill oof most of teh cavalry unit, well you don't even need to, often they suffer heavy losses, then use them to run down routers, and a green unit can become 2 silver in a single battle. One more battle and it is 3 gold. Then back for retraining...
Yuk!
Barkhorn1x
12-11-2006, 19:04
A bit of a cheat I agree.
But still - it was mighty nice when early on in my H/H English campaign where I had to use a unt of Hobilars to stop an opposing cavalry charge - and stop it they did losing all but 2 men and gaining 3 valor in return - then back to Nottigham for a turn and - PRESTO! :2thumbsup: - a unit of 80 Hobilars w/ 3 bronze chevrons is back in action.
Someone mentioned the AI not retraining in MTW and RTW - do they in M2TW? I don't believe I am facing too many partial units, so perhaps they are.
Barkhorn.
I think that retraining should lower the experience, but that the recruits
should not start at rock bottom. The unit spends a whole turn in the castle,
and the veterans could and probably would take an interest in the fresh meat.
If it were up to me, I would have the recruits with half the experience of
the veterans. This way, there would be a drop in the overal unit experience,
and heavy casualties would matter, but one would still have a chance to
develop and maintain elite units.
Bob the Insane
12-12-2006, 00:20
Well the experience of a unit is based on the average experince of all the men in the unit. Thus in MTW when you retrain the unit and all the replacement had zero valour the amount the valour dropped was depednent on the number of men replaced.
I was undr the impression this had been altered back to work this way in M2TW from how it worked in RTW. But obviously not as it appears. Right up there with the dismounted/dismountable cavalry business!!
Someone mentioned the AI not retraining in MTW and RTW - do they in M2TW? I don't believe I am facing too many partial units, so perhaps they are.
Barkhorn.
No, same here. But what I do face are a lot of either almost gone units (15 and less) and units of nearly full strength. To me that indicates the AI merges, but doesn't always retrain.
However I faced an English army of almost entirely double silver... That made me gasp a bit. It might have been former crusaders though.
FactionHeir
12-12-2006, 01:03
Almost all Russian units I get to see in my campaigns are 3 silver and fully trained. Wonder who they have been hitting.
FactionHeir
12-12-2006, 01:35
Erm, before mongols invade :p
The earliest I've met Russians was as the Turks when I invaded Russia after taking out Egypt and Byzantine at around turn 35.
Fair enough, I actually missed the question mark off and I can't edit my posts yet.
Not a clue if it isn't them then, except maybe their suffering a spate of rebel attacks.
Most of all, I hate that I cannot see the effect of experience on unit stats in any way other than the +1/3xp. There are clearly some hidden benefits related to cavalry xp and charging, and I think also missile unit xp affects the killing efficiency even if the missile stat remains unchanged.....
Now, why is it so difficult to show this in the stats? Is it because the effects are not merely unit stat numbers, but also somehow affect reloading time/unit cohesion when charging etc. ?
Rothe, for missile units, experience points translate into two things - melee bonus and defence skill bonus. One extra point for two experience points. The bonuses have a significant effect (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74553) on the unit's killing capabilities.
In the case of cavalry charges (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73777) more experience does not seem to have as much of a benefit as you might expect.
Don't use auto-merge; use manual merging ands always merge the best unit. A tip - you can use for merging a full force unit. So take your nest unit and merge it with your lesser units BUT do not use the stronger unit entirely. Leave it with as little soldiers as possible and retrain it. Repeat untill you whole army is fully staffed. In this way all the units will benefit after each battle and quickly all the units will reach the status of the best unit. After several battles you will have a full uber-stack.
This is a really huge exploit. Using the best unit to merge is a legal move, but the exploit is created from retraining the spent units to full experience.
Actually from this retraining even without merging - just from retraining I had a uber-stack from hospitaliers. They were all gold and were instoppable. The number of battles they win per turn was limited only by their moving distance...
Boring.
Ars Moriendi
12-12-2006, 07:39
However I faced an English army of almost entirely double silver... That made me gasp a bit. It might have been former crusaders though.
You mean like this one :
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9066/silverdanescj9.jpg
They're not ex-crusaders though, just some danes giving the french a lot of pain... Currently they also have better unit in their armies (knights & all), but this one must have been one of their first fielded and probably saw a lot of action.
I know that missile troops benefit from xp, but the thing is that the game stat screens do not show the bonus in-game at all. Why does the missile attack rating not change with the xp just like the melee attack does?
I simply close my eyes and imagine the battle hardened survivors aiding in the training of their new brothers in arms, thereby giving them more experience than normal first time units:juggle2:
ps: I had a Teutonic Knights unit experience-lvl 8 reduced to one (1!!) knight. Had him retrained and filled with Teutonic brethren before sending him on a crusade with the Emperor`s brother Jan von Salza (later known as Jan the Crusader). Later Jan von Salza got a Teutonic Knight retainer and, to me atleast, this retainer was the same knight who rode alone into Nuremburg and personally trained a new band of knights.
He stayed with Jan von Salza until his untimely death by assasination in Sofia years later.
I loved Jan von Salza....*sigh*
Why does the missile attack rating not change with the xp just like the melee attack does?
Because xp doesn't make the arrows any deadlier, or the bow any stronger.
Brighdaasa
12-12-2006, 14:11
Because xp doesn't make the arrows any deadlier, or the bow any stronger.
But i wonder whether high xp archers shoot more accurate, which would be kinda logical.
Kobal2fr
12-12-2006, 14:37
But i wonder whether high xp archers shoot more accurate, which would be kinda logical.
They do. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74553)
Nepereta
12-12-2006, 14:40
I think that retraining should lower the experience, but that the recruits
should not start at rock bottom. The unit spends a whole turn in the castle,
and the veterans could and probably would take an interest in the fresh meat.
If it were up to me, I would have the recruits with half the experience of
the veterans. This way, there would be a drop in the overal unit experience,
and heavy casualties would matter, but one would still have a chance to
develop and maintain elite units.
That I think is the an excellent idea.
Whoz'onE
12-12-2006, 14:59
I had a Teutonic Knights unit experience-lvl 8 reduced to one (1!!) knight. Had him retrained and filled with Teutonic brethren before sending him on a crusade with the Emperor`s brother Jan von Salza (later known as Jan the Crusader). Later Jan von Salza got a Teutonic Knight retainer and, to me atleast, this retainer was the same knight who rode alone into Nuremburg and personally trained a new band of knights.
He stayed with Jan von Salza until his untimely death by assasination in Sofia years later.
I loved Jan von Salza....*sigh*
ROFL ... thanks for that :beam:
crpcarrot
12-12-2006, 15:49
i hope they remove this "feature" in the patch i just loved to make that special unit from vetrans of 5 different battles and there would always be a couple of these units in my armies. they would be held in reserve and sent out on special missions hmmmm MTW soo mch fun
i hope they remove this "feature" in the patch i just loved to make that special unit from vetrans of 5 different battles and there would always be a couple of these units in my armies. they would be held in reserve and sent out on special missions hmmmm MTW soo mch fun
I doubt people wouldn't know that I agree, but I had to say it.
But most of all I just want word on this. Is it intentional or is it a mistake. It would settle this matter, and I would feel better in any case.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
12-12-2006, 23:47
I don't think it's too bad a feature, since it lets me roll out these guys:
https://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1783/untitledaj2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1186/untitled2yl8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Although the elephants aren't retrained (obviously, Turkish.) And apparently, Elephant Artillery do not gain any exp from artillery bombardments, even when they take down 500 guys a battle. Kind of counter-intuitive.
I don't think it's a bad system. In MTW, your troops' valor increased depending on the general's command, but that doesn't happen in M2. Plus, it was dang hard to get experienced units in MTW, you could only do it by constantly combining experienced units of equal valor. So there was a ton of micromanaging - and if you didn't turn of auto stack clean up, you'd never get experienced troops. So this system, I think, works much better.
My only problem with M2's system is how it applies to combining experienced troops with green troops. If you take a unit of triple Gold-chevron Qapukulu and combine it with with a green unit of Qapukulu that only has 2 or 3 men left in the unit, that green unit shoots up to 1 silver chevron, then you can just retrain the golds, and you suddenly have some nicely experienced cavalry hanging about. Wierd.
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