Wot is going on...please read..

[RageFury]

To all Online Players....


I have been playing this game for a long time now..and just lately i have noticed it changing...and not for the better

Instead of using tactics and strategy..and fierce hand to hand fighting..now many people r choosing to hide a lot of monks behind several high honour guns to win the battle

Half ur men r dead before u get there and the rest run as soon as the other army looks at them......

I just don't get it guys...it makes the game unenjoyable even when u win..less fun..shorter bttles and in my opinion just ruins the game entirely

It is just exploiting a game fault (musks morale hit) in order to win

Can someone explain this to me please...cos i really don't get it..or am i just being silly...

Fury

Missiles aee important fury because you kill many much units with it and you afflict a moral penalty to the enemy.

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa.totalwar.org/

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Thats not the only unbalancing thing and u know that.

Now, u either stop playing normal games, or stop playing stw at all or enter the battlefield mocking ur enemies with 16 guns, or u just deploy ur army and as soon as battle starts u withdraw ur troops.

Any of these is the solution to ur problem.
I took mine. Are u ready to take yours ?

[ltj]

i'm sure there are plently of ways to beat any strategy, any map, any time.

there's nothing that can't be done (or beaten, for that matter).

[Slyspy]

Try playing in the rain/snow.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[CaPeFeAr]

As with any tactic there is a way to beat it. One of the major flaws with high honour guns and lots of monks is that the honour level of the monks is very low, mostly h1 or h0. If you can isolate 1 unit, beat it down and cause it to rout, you can autorout the entire army with it. Also, there are ways to get around high honour guns and the moral pently you receive from them but I cant give away all my secrets can I? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Believe me, I get monk rushed all the time. And each time i see it happen I grin because I can beat a monk rush 9 out of 10 times. Players who monk rush have no tactics and good tactics will always beat the rush. However, as with anything there are exceptions. The few times I have been rushed by very good players who do use tactics the battles are very tough and usually quick. I win some and I lose some but that happens anyways with good players no matter what army they bring. THE MONK RUSH IS NOT INVINCIBLE.

[CaPeFeAr]

As for attacking someone who has high honoured guns and lots of monks you can use multiple stragties. #1 most good players play on flat or semi-flat maps because it is nearly impossible to beat an experienced person fighting uphill unless they make a mistake. So im sorry to say I cant give you much advise about that. But on flat maps mobility is key. If someone is determined to sit behing their wall of guns backed up by monks chances are they dont want to move around a bunch. So use bait, tricks and other ploys to get them disorganized then attack a flank, isolate 1 low honour monk and rout it. It is eaiser said then done but with practice it works well. Whatever you do, dont attack head on because that is exactly what they want you to do.
As for attacking newbies who insist on camping hills there are a few favorite things i like to do. #1 use the red zone ( they arn't playing fair by camping why should you?) #2 use the hill against them : either go arond them and come down on top of them or run through their lines with troops on hold formation hold position. Do not engage untill u have gotton behind them, then you have the height atvantage ( THIS DOES NOT WORK AGAINST GOOD PLAYERS )
I hope these tips work well for you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[RageFury]

Thnx Cape.....

But my point is not that i am unable to beat these people...80% of the time i do beat them...

But so many people r now using the gun and monk 'tactic' that it has become boring..i am getting no enjoyment from it even when i win.

At first a relatively small number of people used this method but now others..especiall newbies feel they need this method in order to win..this means an increasing number of people who play with the monks and guns...e4xploiting a game flaw and just taking the enjoymenty out of the battles..

[EuroSan]

Hi Fury!!
Couldn´t said it much better my self...
I have an Ide for all this....so tell me if you guys like it...
Here it is ------) Am thinking about starting up a Chat Room at EA server named

#MAX 2 of each unit allowed in here#

With a balanced like that we can have fun games again and tactical!!!
And if anyone break it, we tell all about it and he want get a game in there again..

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Well cape,

i need not comment this subject any longer...u know 100% of my thoughts as proven in battle with masked and rethrox http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


enough talking of tactics in a game has only some historical names pretending some tactics to still be employable http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Fury is right. Whatever "tactic" is to work, you re missing his point. That he (like me) gets no fun either in winning or loosing this type of games.
The attitude of players is the key. And the "top players" are not giving a good example to newbies...but all in all, why should they ? Each one has fun its own way and that is the only right thing to do with a game: having fun.

Sadly, the Creative assembly doesnt' give a shit about players who cant get fun anymore from a spoiled game...and that is evident in the delays of patches for commercial reasons when the patches were needed 3 months ago already. All i want from a patch is to fix the bugs, and frankly, from a company who put a game on sale with the horde bug it is quite exhilarating to ask http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

All i wanted is for them to add Batman & Robin unit to the game and they added the sword saint instead!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif



Eurosan, needless to say, do the room and u ll find me in a.s.a.p. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[solypsist]

the easiest way to stop doing this is to simply lower the koku available per game; I'm sure there's something that's not being mentioned here, like playing 10000 koku games are something that makes it really easy and tempting to buy a lot of expensive monk units.
games of less than 5000 don't make it such an easy cop-out.

[Magyar Khan]

i like the old balance rule of

choose every unit once (so u have 11 different ones) and choose the other 5 freely.

and advanced rule... but the 5 freely u choose may not contain muskets arques or monks.

and i hope it is possible to mix mongol units in online campaign so u can play battles with the simple rule, choose all different units...

[Magyar Khan]

and muskets and monks are the units who are the least balanced. muskets should kill their own men if fired in melee and monks are simply too strong in fighting.

[Nelson]

I agree.

Monks are overpowered.

Teppo should cause more friendly casualties when firing into a melee.

The destructiveness of teppo is correct, however, including their morale effects. Guns were a very big deal. They are not overpowered in this regard.

Magyar, didn't the one of the Question Time answers say that we can't mix Mongol and Japanese units?

[Rageexe]

I know exactly what you mean fury
The other day I was attacking Nagashima some guy had 10 musks 3 monk and 3 nag
A bit extreme i think http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
But like you said more and more are following the idea that you need to have lots of missiles and just put a few units in front and shoot the hell out of everyone
Maybe its fun for the person doing it but doesnt make for interesting games for the person facing them.
People moan about monk rushers but i think this is as bad if not worse at least you get to fight a rusher.
I think most people have some monks and a couple of guns in their army simply because you need them as everyone else uses them.
Trends change and no doubt with the add on there will be more units that are exploited.
As some may know I gave up comp games because of bad attitudes but it seems even friendly games are heading that way, now win at all costs hill campers and musks and monk armies all over the place.
Well my first and maybe last post had to get alot of my chest hehe
Its a game have fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Rageexe (edited 03-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rageexe (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Traianvs]

I'm totally agree with Rage Fury, Yamaga, and the great Magyar,
after over 300 on line matches I got very annoyed, I think the problems are not only "rushers" (poor people without strategy playing just for win) but also most of good (even me, I have to admit)and strong players almost always use the lethal combination monks-musk.
Well I think muskets are not overpowered, they can be beated, and the have the limit of the rain, the real matter do is monks, simply is very silly that they're the most powerful unit and not the most expensive one! 'cause of them heavy cavalry is completely useless, and quite the same as for the lancers, will u remember when the demo was realesed? the monks weren't arrived yet and the game was MUCH MORE balanced.
mi idea: DON'T USE MONKS!!!! and in the meantime ask CA for a new rebalancing of the units, we don't need new units...we just need more balanced units in my opinion.
Think about...without monks tha cavalry gets his historical role, and without risking the same problem of monks, 'cause you know cavaly loose against yari wich are cheap units.
Please forgive my outlet (and my ugly english!)...I just wanna enjoy my favourite game, once again.
Please.... let do somenthing!!!!!!

vale.

I spoke with Fury about this so I'll add what was concluded here.

The only problem with musks is nothing to do with how powerful or effective they are, because, as stated before, they were like that in Japan. The problem is the difference in the availabilty between online/custom battles and the campaign. We all know how hard it is to get musketeers in the campaign, but at a click of a button, and only a minor drain on your koku, you have musketeers at your disposal for online/custom games. If musks were a lot more expensive, or there was a REAL cap on the number of musketeers allowed (not a cap where you have to trust that your enemy won't buy them) then that would solve this problem. And it is a problem.

p.s. By musketeers I mean both musketeers and arquebusiers(so no-one can mis-interpret this.)

[RageFury]

I have got to admit guys..i was just a little irritated when i wrote thast post and i expected fierce competition to my views on this matter......

I am both surprised and pleased about the number of positive posts from great players and peeps i don't know alike....

Means a lot guys and has given me a spark of hope for this game yet.....

My argument was not just that they caused so much damage and morale effect..it is the fact that 'teppo' can get honour and the dramatic effect this has on casualties...the weapons were cumbersome and hard to aim but peasents with more honour can cause phenomonal damage..it is mad...plus this phenomonal damage is through ur own units as magy says and is sheer impossibility


Anyway thnx guys

Fury

[This message has been edited by RageFury (edited 03-19-2001).]

Playing Yama's rules is the only practical solution for now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Or playing with arqs/musks at 500/600k




------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa.totalwar.org/

[Tone]

RageFury:

You didn't tell your opponents you were from Scumhampton or something did you? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Seriously though I agree. Follow some of the advice above: low koku and walk off the field if you end up playing a knobhead (then tell them why). I've seen one player who changed his attitude after this.

[This message has been edited by Tone (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Dunhill]

As a newbie, I was shocked at the amount of muskets fielded by players online, as I hadn't used them or encountered them much in my campaign play. For a while I asked another newbie to play so we could learn the ropes of multiplyer gaming, and we would settle on an identical force set-up, 5 YA, 4 YS, 3 SA, and so on. We found it quite fun. I've also requested that people do not bring guns to battles, which has usually lead to a pile of monks.

In Close combat the unit spec files are open to manipulation, and belive me they get in there and tinker around quite a bit (weapon reload times, ammo counts, the works). Maybe we can get a patch to fix this problem, and/or more features to let players create more balance (adjusting unit costs in mulitplayer gaming sounds like a winner).

Cheers from Tasmania

[angelofhullfire]

I'm currently trying to play online from behind a godforsaken firewall, but surely you can select the "random units" option in multiplay?

I suspect that you can't, since I would always play with this option. I'll be interested to find out.

[RageFury]

Hahahaha...so speaks the man from our beutifal capital city...NOT.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway to the newbie glad to see u r not joining the band wagon mate good for you...

Angelofhullfire...random units is not selectable in multiplay..unfortunately...it may be interesting if it was..and as for the firewall there should be an option to have it auto-configure itself if it is personal..if it an server firewall then u should still be able to play games online just not host them

Fury

[Puzz3D]

The icing on the cake was a player I ran into who wouldn't play in the rain because he used guns. He would just exit the game before deploying if it was raining with no loss recorded, and it was my rematch game with him after loosing the first one. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

I played the single player campaign a long time before I went online. It's a different game online with all the monks 'n guns running around. It took me quite a while to adjust my playing style, and I still don't like loading up on monks 'n guns, but I have to take some to survive.

I like the way the game plays without guns, and the monks and no-dachi are so close in characteristics that you could remove monks completely without degrading the tactical game play at all.

CA/DT's reluctance to make some adjustments to monks and guns for the sake of better online play is a bit puzzling. I don't get the cost relationship between no-dachi and monks. The only difference between these two units is hth ability by a ratio of 7 to 3 in favor of the monks for equal honor units. If an H2 no-dachi costs 300 koku, then an H2 monk should cost 700 koku. Isn't that kind of obvious?

I don't think you can fault players for figuring out what units work best and then using them.

I played some games with Yamaga's 2v2 rules, and they were very challenging. Since the armies are essentially balanced, the emphasis is on maneuver and cooperation. The division of unit types between the two commanders means that neither can operate independently. It's a great alternative to the regular game. Yamaga has been putting a lot of effort into lining up players to try these ruled games, and interest seems to be picking up.

Setting up a special room for max 2 or something like that is also a good idea. You'd have to keep advertising out in the foyer for people to come in.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[CaPeFeAr]

I think all of you are missing my point. Monk and gun armies are easy to beat. IMHO monks do not cost to little and guns are fine the way they are too. A well balanced army consisting of guns, archers, cav archers, spears, monks, nd , and yari cav ( I tend to stay away from nags and hc because they dont fit my playing style ) coupled with sound tactics will consistantly win against monk and guns armies in rain or shine. I typicaly bring 4 monks ( Is that concidered monk heavy? ) and have excellent results. The only advantage to monk armies is that it takes little to no skill to play with them.
On the other hand, I have played yamaga-san's rules and was quite impressed with the skill necessary to play and win with these historacly acurate armies. I am not against ruled games and enjoy playing them but I dont mind facing monk and guns armies either because I find it personaly easy to beat them.
As the honourable fury has said, monk and gun heavy armies take away from his enjoyment of this game and that is a valid concern. But the only dislike I have of those armies is how easy they are to beat. Its the same way as all cav. Yes you can rack up lots of kills because all cav armies are easy to beat ( unless Magyar is in command http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) but is easily winning really fun? I personaly enjoy a knock down fight to the end with the outcome never certin, thats what gets my blood pumping.

[Traianvs]

To Puzz3d
"I like the way the game plays without guns, and the monks and no-dachi are so close in characteristics that you could remove monks completely without degrading the tactical game play at all."

I really don't think so, monks and nodachi are no way close each other,
nodachi are assaulting units, their role is to beat the yari units, the yari beat cavalry, but loose vs archers and protected musks, missile units and nodachi loose vs heavy cavaary and somentimes vs the lancers, that's a simple and effective chinese morra system, but monks spoilt it, becouse they win vs all kind of units and they're not the most expensive unit, and so they unbalance the game, it's so simple to understand imho...

To CapeFear
"Monk and gun armies are easy to beat"

LOL, have u ever played on line? so why 90% of all player's army is made by 3 to 5 musk and at least 6 monks units, in your opinion?
Maybe you said that 'cause y are not able to play without monks and musk... or what else?
Why don't we have some figth...I really wonder how could you beat a monk army, without using them in force, lead by a good player, my master....

bye

[Slyspy]

I only ever use one unit of monks if I use them at all. Sometimes they are the only unit that can get the job done. Generally though I prefer no-dachi (because of the red armour and sword waving animation) or in some cases heavy cavalry for dramatic effect.

By the way Tone don't diss Southampton. Only natives are allowed to do that, and you're outnumbered here London-boy! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[angelofhullfire]

Cheers for the acknowledgement Ragefury!! Anyone ever want a battle under the premise of a realistic/ tactical battle, email me on

aduckmylord@hotmail.com.

[Tone]

Sorry Slyspy, i don't have anything against Southampton really, the Skates now that's another matter. I had the misfortune to work in Portsmouth for a very brief time. Anyone from Pompey: i'm happy to argue with you about it it's personal. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Tone (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Dark Phoenix]

Traianvs:
Capefear is a very good player he has even beaten me once or twice. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
You may know his other name NC Beach.

You do need guns but only to add cover. I have never faced a monk and musk army. Probably because I play few comp games and friendlies are normally against people trying to get into Clan Doragon or against people I know that wont rush me.

By the way I am expecting the cheque soon Cape US dollars please. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif


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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[CaPeFeAr]

Quote Originally posted by Traianvs:
To CapeFear
"Monk and gun armies are easy to beat"

LOL, have u ever played on line? so why 90% of all player's army is made by 3 to 5 musk and at least 6 monks units, in your opinion?
Maybe you said that 'cause y are not able to play without monks and musk... or what else?
Why don't we have some figth...I really wonder how could you beat a monk army, without using them in force, lead by a good player, my master....[/QUOTE]

hmmmm....i believe i can awnser that in the positive, i have played online. The awnser to your other question is if you play high koku you are more likley to see higher amounts of monks. My suggestion to you is not to play anything over 8k (even thats high in my opinion) per person. Other than that i suggest you read my remarks in the first few replies to this topic. I can tell you i have had players tell me how much it has improved there playing skills just by reading them. Currently there is only one player online who i have not beaten in 1v1 over many attempts.( I am sure there are a few that i have only played once or twice that i have not beat but they dont count) and that is the most honourable Magyar. In all my attempts to beat him (in 1v1) i have absolutly never seen him bring more than 4 monks.....i have tried many tactics against him including lots of guns and once even an all out monk rush. Every time i pick an unbalenced army, i am crushed. BTW ....anytime you feel like monk rushing me Traianvs, be my guest. Mabey seeing your own udder defeat will change your attitude about bringing unbalanced armies to the field. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[EuroSan]

Hi all.
I just taught about the thing with christianety in the Campagin, why cant my units get the moral boost vs monks if i buy all non monks when playing online??? Something to think about CA/EA!!!



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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Yamaga Shimazu]

they dont fit my playing style ) coupled with sound tactics will consistantly win against monk and guns armies in rain or shine.

What tactics, cape ? Is there any in normal stw ? I dont think so...that is not tactics, that is koku usage.


On the other hand, I have played yamaga-san's rules and was quite impressed with the skill necessary to play and win with these historacly acurate armies.

Well...cape, see if u can win the league http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[CaPeFeAr]

ahhhhh tactics... well i have a brief description in Magyars 100 tips 4 victory thread. Adding another few well known ones: wise use of landscape, planing an attack on anothers weak spot, fatuige managment..moral managment, understanding what the other army is doing..and on and on. this topic has been well debated and its obvious which side of the fence i am on..there are some real life tactics which one does not have the abilitly to use in shogun. this is understandable..its a game..but to say there are NO tactics in normal shogun is quite extreem. we both agree to disagree on tactics...

BTW i have been serching for a partner for your leage but it seems i cant find any1 willing to ally with me YET...so ill keep looking ...i hope to play but winning is not a goal of mine....nor is it yours, i hope..i agreed to play because your rules create fun and challenging battles..and thats the same reason i play regular shogun...its still fun IMHO and challenging at times. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[EuroSan]

Hi again.
Just came up with an ide for the game.
Anyone that has played Chess will understand this one with no problem LOL

First 8 ashiguars for the peasent line

ash ash ash ash ash ash ash ash
Cav CA Nd naga Hc Nd CA Cav

Koku is 4275 per player
all 2h and free setup on the field,but both has same army.

Only an ide!!

If you see me online ask me for a game with this settings could be fun!!

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 03-22-2001).]

[ElmarkOFear]

Cape I will be your partner, sign me up plz. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I am busy with the tourney right now, but will be available to play if it is held in a time frame compatible with my work schedule. Sounds like fun! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif cyas Elmarko Of Fearful Ways

[CaPeFeAr]

Eurosan: Great Idea!! The next time we see each other we shall try your setup.

Elm: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[EuroSan]

Wow that was fun Capefear..thanks for the game........we do the 2th game later.

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Yamaga Shimazu]

again,

U may call them tactics, i may call them koku usage...the goal is to have fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Even san's sys seems good but the key is:

When 2 players meet to fight, they should have equivalent armies (which is NOT having same army) this way u have a good game regardless of skills which are key to victory.

Now, when anyone can buy whatever and when honor upsets realism, then that is the moment i LAUGH at tactics bc there are none http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Cape/Elmarko, welcome to the league! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Stay tuned

[CaPeFeAr]

San: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif you trashed me in the chess game !! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I can see that your setup requires much more practice for me because it is almost a different game entirely. I look foward to our second game a suggest all players try this new and exciting way of playing. as a second thought, ruled games are fun in general, and all players should feel free to host games and make rules for them. over time im sure we(shogun community) can find many different ways to alter the game for the better.

[BakaGaijin]

Eurosan: I shall be looking for you online, now! I expect a sound trouncing, not having played for a VERY long time, but it should be fun. Actually, I might just start using your setup for normal games. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif It's a rather good approximation to what I like to use, although I'd normally take rather a few more Samurai Archers and toss the Naginata and Heavy Cav, as well as using Yari Sams (less of them, naturally) instead of Ashigaru.