Nationwide unrest

[FactionHeir]

I've been checking on most of the settlements in my campaigns and have noticed (under VH), that starting around turn 25 or 30 (I may be wrong, but its just a guess) every single settlement I have gets 15% unrest. No religious unrest but the normal kind. Even in settlements without a governor. Mostly this happens to settlements I have owned for a while and very seldomly to newly captured settlements (i.e. Rome didn't have any normal unrest when I captured it)
Funny thing is, that its always 15%.
Anyone got any ideas on that? Its kind of annoying when you got unrest and don't know where it comes from.

[PaulTa]

A good indicator of wether or not someone has a spy in your settlement is a sudden increase in unrest for no reason what so ever. From what you're saying, it sounds like you have a lot of spies in your different settlements.

[FactionHeir]

I have tried that hypothesis and its not spies. Even islands (like Rhodes) have this problem, not just mainland cities and when I got fed up with it, i made 3 spies for each settlement and gave them skill 10 quickly, ended turn twice to check whether there was a spy inside and nothing. The unrest stays. I'm guessing its related to some campaign script or some situation your nation must be in?

[Molinaargh]

Pretty sure 15% is the standard spy unrest.

Make a few spies and keep them in your settlements. Give them dumb missions to increase their skill, this likely makes them better at detecting enemy spies.

The AI is using too many spies right now, there should be an agent limit.

[PaulTa]

Excomm does that, only 20%. High taxes will cause unrest. Conquering settlements that aren't your own cause unrest.

Might be a trait that your faction leader has that causes the unrest.

[FactionHeir]

While my faction leader is usually someone with high dread (due to assassinations and espionage), I don't think that this has an influence on nationwide unrest, as he doesn't have a trait that states something like that. Excomm or taxes aren't causing the 15% unrest as they are different types of negative public order.
Excomm has its own symbol (crossed cross) and high taxes have the bag with arrow symbol. I'm talking about the pitchfork with fire symbol though.

I experienced it both as turks and as milan, both times after a certain playtime (varied), and usually when I started having a lot of territories.

I appreciate the responses so far though, and wonder whether anyone else has had that problem?

[Varyar]

I have noted the same thing. However it might still be because of spies. I played a game as Milan and had big unrest problems in my capital but after a serious effort I managed to rid the town of spies and suddenly all unrest, even that pesky 15% was gone.

So my only suggestion would be to try harder. Gather as much as 5 or more good spies in a single city and wait and see what happens.

[FactionHeir]

Spies usually cause around 30% unrest though, which, while of the same kind, is impossible on island cities because the AI doesn't use boats and as proof you never ever see Rhodes being occupied by the AI even later in the game.
And if Rhodes has the unrest problem too (i converted it to a city btw), and every single city I own does (even those on the far rim of the map far away from any other faction), then I do wonder what this is about...

[Dan.o6]

The AI does use boats, extensively infact. In my current campaign I have seen various armies landing all around the map, and it's not just armies they have transported Diplomats, Priests and Spys aswell.

[Quillan]

Spies cause 5% unrest per point of subterfuge they have. The tax penalty and religious unrest are listed separately with unique icons. Character traits can cause it, but it does seem to be somewhat more widespread than in RTW. A number of provinces in RTW had base 15% unrest and a few had base 30% unrest (Judea, Cilicia, and the amazon homeland plus maybe 1-2 others). In my current Venetian campaign, Venice has none, Zagreb has none, Ragusa has 10%, and the remainder (Bologna, Florence, Milan, Genoa, Ajaccio, Cagliara, Durazzo, Iraklion and Rhodes) all have 15%. There are no spies on the islands, and no governors in any city.

[FactionHeir]

Tried as suggested using more spies:

Used 10 spies from various settlements and quickly gave traits/ancillaries to make them subterfuge 10. Put them in Antioch (one of my 15% unrest settlements, as good as any other, but since I got half the world it seemed far away enough to elminate any variance) and ended turn 5 times. No spy detected and unrest stays. So I suppose that kind of proves my point that this unrest is some kind of bug.

Similarly, my capital (when pure or nearly pure with my religion) always gets 10% religious unrest if it has a governor.

[Molinaargh]

Tried as suggested using more spies:

Used 10 spies from various settlements and quickly gave traits/ancillaries to make them subterfuge 10. Put them in Antioch (one of my 15% unrest settlements, as good as any other, but since I got half the world it seemed far away enough to elminate any variance) and ended turn 5 times. No spy detected and unrest stays. So I suppose that kind of proves my point that this unrest is some kind of bug.

Similarly, my capital (when pure or nearly pure with my religion) always gets 10% religious unrest if it has a governor.
That's all very strange. Sorry for insisting in the spy thing, but it was the only reasonable explanation I could think of.

Maybe someone who has taken a look at the files can explain this to us, I really want to know what's going on there.

[FactionHeir]

Don't worry about it, I'd be skeptical at first too, that's why I also did the tests to confirm instead of just insisting.

For the moment I added them to the buglist, CA should hopefully know what's causing it! :)

[Bijo]

I have an idea.
I've seen that when I keep on conquering regions and/or winning battles I see a public order boost called Triumph in many settlements. So to take care that this Unrest won't bother you too much just keep on conquering :P lol.

But seriously, I have this problem too, yeah. I was just thinking "Hmm, what the heck? Is it just because of spies?" Then I thought it could have to do with religious unrest and others that create a global unrest or something? Or maybe spies have been to my settlements and then left but the unrest stayed?

Well, whatever it is, I don't like it.

[FactionHeir]

Finally someone who has the same experience! :D
Would you like to confirm my post in the buglist?

[Quillan]

I don't think it's a bug. I think it's a planned effect. It mostly happens in settlements that didn't belong to you at game start, so I think it's a replacement for the culture penalty from RTW. They really toned down the public order penalties in this game. The 50% culture penalty is gone, squalor penalty to public order caps at 80% now, distance to capitol penalty has been reduced, so it's a lot easier to keep a large city under control in this game. I expect the permanent unrest (if that's what it is) was put in the game to give you SOME little difficulty to overcome keeping acquired regions under control. I just haven't been able to find it in the files where it's controlled.

[FactionHeir]

Considering that Milan in my Milan vampaign was no longer my capital but had permanent unrest, I don't think it has to do with replacement of cultural differences (as those in RTW could be eliminated over time using extermination and demolishing buildings not of your faction)
As for "easier control of large cities", I again have to disagree. The decrease in squalor effect but addition to population growth just mean the cities become ever larger and you can't have the tax rates high to stop growth (unless you want to forgo a lot of useful buildings to decrease growth) and when taxes are low it just grows even faster. I.e. I got permanent PO troubles from cities that grew above 40k and still with positive growth rates.

The unrest must stem from something else that they must have made an error on really...

[Bijo]

I'd like to support you but I'm not saying it's a bug though. Fact is, I don't know what it is, lol :)

But I'm sure we can find out. I'll check that bug list again :)

[Quillan]

I can't post attachments, so I'll hide this under a spoiler tag below, but I was right. I did a little digging over in the RTW forums. In the data folder of the game directory was a file called descr_rebel_factions.txt. In this file, it listed every type of rebels that could appear in the game, along with certain specifics on them. Here's a snippet from the RTW vanilla file as of version 1.6:


rebel_type Judaeans //parthia
category peasant_revolt
chance 6
description Judaeans
unit east archer
unit rebel judaean zealots
unit rebel judaean zealots
unit eastern rebel general

The rebel type was tied to a particular province, Judea in this case. The //parthia probably meant which models to use. The unit listing showed what types of units could appear in a rebel army. The "chance" line is the important one. What they found was each point of chance was 5% permanent unrest in the game if you held that province. The vast majority of the settlements had 0 under chance. A few had 6 and somewhat more than that had 3, which made for a few provinces with 30% base unrest and a number more with 15%.

This particular file is packed up in M2TW, but over in the mod chat forums there is a thread which contains a link where you can download the already unpacked files to look at, or modify and use with the mod switch feature. I downloaded them a while back, so here's the entirety of the contents of the M2TW descr_rebel_factions.txt file:
;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;non region based
;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

rebel_type gladiator_uprising
category gladiator_revolt
chance 100
description gladiator_uprising
unit Peasants

;======================================================================================

rebel_type brigands
category brigands
chance 50
description brigands
unit Peasants

rebel_type pirates
category pirates
chance 50
description pirates
unit pirate ship

;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;region based
;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


rebel_type Livonian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Livonian_Rebels
unit Woodsmen
unit EE Peasant Archers
unit Lithuanian Archers
unit Viking Raiders
unit Lithuanian Cavalry

rebel_type Bohemian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Bohemian_Rebels
unit Feudal Knights
unit EE Peasant Archers
unit EE Peasants
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Armored Sergeants
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Hussites
unit Hussites

rebel_type Bulgarian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Bulgarian_Rebels
unit Bulgarian Brigands
unit Bulgarian Brigands
unit Slav Levies
unit Slav Levies
unit Magyar Cavalry
unit Feudal Knights
unit E Chivalric Knights

rebel_type Wallachian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Wallachian_Rebels
unit Bulgarian Brigands
unit Slav Levies
unit Slav Levies
unit Magyar Cavalry
unit Feudal Knights
unit E Chivalric Knights
unit Transilvanian Peasants
unit Transilvanian Peasants

rebel_type Greek_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Greek_Rebels
unit SE Town Militia
unit SE Spear Militia
unit S Archer Militia
unit S Archer Militia
unit Skythikon
unit Byzantine Cavalry
unit Byzantine Lancers
unit Byzantine Spearmen

rebel_type Native_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Native_Rebels
unit Native Warriors
unit Native Archers
unit Aztec Peasants

rebel_type Croatian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Croatian_Rebels
unit Croat Axemen
unit Croat Axemen
unit Peasant Archers
unit Peasant Crossbowmen
unit Pavise Crossbowmen
unit Mailed Knights
unit Feudal Knights

rebel_type Anatolian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Anatolian_Rebels
unit SE Town Militia
unit SE Town Militia
unit SE Spear Militia
unit S Archer Militia
unit Skythikon
unit Byzantine Cavalry
unit Byzantine Lancers
unit Byzantine Spearmen
unit Trebizond Archers
unit Southern Peasants
unit Turkomans

rebel_type English_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description English_Rebels
unit Peasants
unit Levy Spearmen
unit Armored Swordsmen
unit Longbowmen
unit Longbowmen
unit Mailed Knights
unit English Knights
unit Town Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Archer Militia

rebel_type French_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description French_Rebels
unit Peasant Archers
unit Peasant Crossbowmen
unit Crossbowmen
unit Peasants
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Armored Sergeants
unit Feudal Knights
unit Chivalric Knights
unit Town Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Crossbow Militia

rebel_type Magyar_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Magyar_Rebels
unit EE Peasants
unit Slav Levies
unit Croat Axemen
unit Magyar Cavalry
unit Magyar Cavalry
unit Magyar Cavalry
unit Feudal Knights
unit E Chivalric Knights
unit Crossbowmen

rebel_type Iberian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Iberian_Rebels
unit ME Peasants
unit ME Town Militia
unit ME Spear Militia
unit ME Peasant Crossbowmen
unit ME Peasant Crossbowmen
unit Desert Cavalry
unit Arab Cavalry
unit Granadine Jinetes
unit Desert Archers

rebel_type Irish_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Irish_Rebels
unit Peasants
unit Levy Spearmen
unit Armored Swordsmen
unit Hobilars
unit Irish Kerns
unit Irish Kerns
unit Galloglaich

rebel_type Rus_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Rus_Rebels
unit Kazaks
unit Kazaks
unit Boyar Sons
unit EE Archer Militia
unit EE Spear Militia
unit EE Crossbow Militia
unit Woodsmen

rebel_type Mexican_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Mexican_Rebels
unit Aztec Peasants
unit Aztec Spearmen
unit Aztec Archers
unit Aztec Spear Throwers
unit Aztec Warriors
unit Aztec Warriors
unit Jaguar Warriors

rebel_type Norse_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Norse_Rebels
unit Crossbowmen
unit Peasant Archers
unit Viking Raiders
unit Viking Raiders
unit Viking Raiders
unit Huscarls
unit Feudal Knights
unit Norse Swordsmen

rebel_type Polish_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Polish_Rebels
unit EE Peasant Archers
unit Lithuanian Archers
unit EE Peasants
unit EE Spear Militia
unit Woodsmen
unit Polish Shooters
unit Polish Nobles
unit Polish Knights

rebel_type Saharan_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Saharan_Rebels
unit Desert Archers
unit Sudanese Javelinmen
unit Sudanese Tribesmen
unit Tuareg Camel Spearmens
unit Nubian Spearmen
unit Nubian Archers

rebel_type Scots_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Scots_Rebels
unit Highland Archers
unit Highland Rabble
unit Highlanders
unit Feudal Knights
unit Town Militia
unit Archer Militia
unit Scots Pike Militia
unit Scots Pike Militia
unit Galloglaich
unit Border Horse

rebel_type Seljuk_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Seljuk_Rebels
unit ME Peasants
unit ME Town Militia
unit ME Spear Militia
unit Saracen Militia
unit Arab Cavalry
unit Turkish Archers
unit Turkomans
unit Turkomans
unit Turkomans

rebel_type Island_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Island_Rebels
unit S Peasant Archers
unit Southern Peasants
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Armored Sergeants
unit Mailed Knights
unit Norman Knights
unit Italian Militia
unit Italian Spear Militia
unit Pavise Crossbow Militia
unit Sicilian Muslim Archers

rebel_type Spanish_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Spanish_Rebels
unit Peasants
unit Javelinmen
unit Peasant Archers
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Mailed Knights
unit Chivalric Knights
unit Town Militia
unit Jinetes
unit Jinetes

rebel_type Steppe_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Steppe_Rebels
unit Turkomans
unit Turkomans
unit ME Peasant Archers

rebel_type Swiss_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Swiss_Rebels
unit Feudal Knights
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Swiss Pikemen
unit Swiss Pikemen
unit Swiss Pikemen
unit Swiss Pikemen
unit Halberd Militia

rebel_type Welsh_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Welsh_Rebels
unit Peasants
unit Welsh Longbowmen
unit Welsh Longbowmen
unit Welsh Spearmen
unit Welsh Spearmen
unit Armored Swordsmen
unit Mailed Knights

rebel_type Fatimid_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Fatimid_Rebels
unit ME Peasants
unit ME Town Militia
unit Nubian Spearmen
unit Arab Cavalry
unit Mamluks
unit Desert Archers
unit Mamluk Archers

rebel_type Flemish_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Flemish_Rebels
unit Flemish Pikemen
unit Flemish Pikemen
unit Flemish Pikemen
unit Feudal Knights
unit Crossbowmen
unit Armored Sergeants

rebel_type Italian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Italian_Rebels
unit Mailed Knights
unit Feudal Knights
unit Italian MAA
unit Peasant Archers
unit Peasant Crossbowmen
unit Peasants
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Armored Sergeants
unit Italian Militia
unit Italian Militia
unit Italian Spear Militia
unit Italian Spear Militia
unit Pavise Crossbow Militia

rebel_type Arab_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Arab_Rebels
unit ME Peasants
unit ME Town Militia
unit ME Spear Militia
unit Saracen Militia
unit Arab Cavalry
unit Mamluks
unit Mamluk Archers
unit Desert Cavalry
unit Bedouin Cavalry
unit Bedouin Camel Riders

rebel_type German_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description German_Rebels
unit Mailed Knights
unit Feudal Knights
unit Imperial Knights
unit Armored Sergeants
unit Town Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Peasants
unit Halberd Militia

rebel_type Burgundian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Burgundian_Rebels
unit Crossbowmen
unit Peasants
unit Sergeant Spearmen
unit Feudal Knights
unit Chivalric Knights
unit Town Militia
unit Spear Militia
unit Crossbow Militia
unit Flemish Pikemen
unit Swiss Pikemen

rebel_type Armenian_Rebels
category peasant_revolt
chance 3
description Armenian_Rebels
unit Armenian Archers
unit Armenian Archers
unit Armenian Cavalry
unit SE Spear Militia
unit Southern Peasants



Not all provinces can have rebels appear. These are the provinces that can. Every single one has a chance of 3, which means 15% base unrest.

[Zenicetus]

Not all provinces can have rebels appear. These are the provinces that can. Every single one has a chance of 3, which means 15% base unrest.

Good detective work! So, we can assume that 15% unrest (yellow trident version) could be a single spy in a province without base unrest, but it's probably just base unrest for that province. And anything over 15% means you've got a spy, right?

[FactionHeir]

Interesting finding indeed, but while it does mention region based, it does not mention which regions are actually affected.
Further, it could simply be that this might be a chance that rebels (and what type of rebels+amount) spawns in this province randomly?

[FactionHeir]

Oh another thing (i wish I could edit):

Your evidence does not really explain why the unrest isn't permanent to begin with but sets in after a certain amount of time and at varying times for varying settlements.