View Full Version : Allied with the Mongols
Doug-Thompson
12-11-2006, 17:50
Playing Eqypt, I expected to get hammered by the Mongols. Instead they are my allies, they have about 10 stacks that have lived on my territory for more than 25 turns and are causing no devestation.
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Early on, I prepared for the Mongol invasion by putting one stack each of high quality units at two river crossings: One north of Mosul and one between Mosul and Baghdad. This still left one open east of Baghdad.
I also put a full stack of archers and spears in Baghdad, and was working on filling up another one in Mosul. The Mongols and the Russians had a war in the meantime.
About 4 1/2 stacks worth of Mongol units show up. I go on a mercenary hiring binge and recruitment drive. Now I have one stack at each river crossing, and the one north of Mosul has another stack in easy reinforcement range. The Mongols have sacked and destroyed the province north of Baghdad, several times.
I have another full stack up near Trebizond.
The Mongols shuffle back and forth between my two river crossing for a while, but don't attack. I send a diplomat, who's treated with something very similar to hatred. Meanwhile, spies notice Russia coming in behind the Mongols, mopping up destroyed provinces. I send the stack from Trebizond to the province capital north of Baghdad, pre-empting the Russians and hoping to lure the Mongols back northward. Now the Mongols are living on my territory.
Nothing happens. By now, I've completed an upgrade of Baghdad's fortifications to include cannon towers, and strengthened Mosul. I leave a couple of infantry units in the town east of Trez and await developments.
Time passes and another five full stacks of Mongols arrive. However, they join the original stacks and assume the same pastoral lifestyle.
OK. More time passes. I send another diplomat and offer alliance, which is accepted. I move away or disband about a stack worth of units. I replace many of the units left guarding the river with infantry, including desert archers and javelinmen. These are much cheaper.
I assume this docile existance will continue until the Timurids hit. I don't know if the Mongols and Timurids will fight, or if I'll suffer the Mother of all Barbarian Invasions. Curious to find out, though.
If the Mongols and the Timurids fight each others, I'll be quite pleased.
That would be hilarious. Or will you be able to get the Timurids to stay at peace with you also? The big happy Islamic trio.
zulukiller
12-11-2006, 22:47
Thats sounds brilliant Doug-Thompson your gonna have to keep this post updated as i want to know what happens (im adding this page as a favourite now). Will you get the biggest arse raping in history or somthing else lol its better than watching the soaps this.
LOL ! I was thinking just the same thing !!! If I don't get attacked by the Mongols and the Russians do... oh oh.. did I ally with the Russians ???? EEEEKKK!!! Well I don't remember, but I could'nt have done something so darn foolish. I was thinking if they atack the Russians I'll ally them.
Will be great to know what happens when the Timurids come. I'll tell you one thing Turk-Mongol duo vs Timur = dead Timur. I'm only in 1140 though still have time a lot of time to kill.
Doug-Thompson
12-14-2006, 16:37
Giving the Mongols a more agressive AI is a specific feature of an uncoming patch. Therefore, this little story won't have any lasting implications. I'll post what finally happens just to satisfy any curiousity.
Doug-Thompson
12-15-2006, 16:53
The Mongols finally betrayed me at either turn 130 or 131. At the same time, I got the "Black Death" cutscene. Wasn't exactly a smiley, happy turn.
They broadcast the fact they were turning on me by dispersing to threaten multiple crossings. Next turn, one stack besieged Baghdad. I had to cross a river to disperse them but did, although losing about twice as many men as them. Most were bargain-rate Baghdad garrison troops, at least. One Mongol stack routed and it's general killed.
Then two stacks attacked me at the river crossing north of Mosul, which turned out to be one of the best bottlenecks I've ever seen. It's a deep gorge with a bridge and one other crossing a bit downstream. One force could cover both. Even the deployment by the computer was pretty good. I did send two more Mameluk Archers to cover the ford, though. Their reinforcements arrived. My reinforcements arrived. Four full stacks glared at each other accross the gorge in full laggy glory at night.
We wait. And wait. And wait. There is no time limit. Since I'm sure my dumb AI reinforcements will attack across the river if I don't do something, I send one unit of desert archers to try and provoke an attack. I lose five of their 60 men for nothing.
Sure enough, my dumb reinforcements cross the river bridge. I get to watch Mongol rocket launchers in action for the first time. Mamaluks (archer and melee), desert archers and such attacking two full Mongol stacks deployed on a steep slope with artillery, including a trebuchet. I considered myself lucky that the reinforcement army only suffered 60 percent casulaties and routed after their one-star general got killed. I stayed where I was, hoping the Mongols would chase the routed across the bridge.
They did -- with one whole unit -- which happened to be their general's bodyguard. (Their second stack was led by a captain.) I killed him and the whole Mongol army comes pouring over the bridge. Now its my turn. Heavy cavalry charge into what's largely a cavalry fight, but I have three units of decent spears and two mercenary javelin units. These prove to be my secret weapons, with a high-value horse to kill everywhere they turn. The desert archers are pouring it on from height, too, and so are the Mameluk archers.
Still, I just don't have the numbers any more, so as the last survivors of spears and heavy cavalry die I tighten up my Mameluk archers and charge them into the brawl, practically rolling like an avalance down the steep slope. The Mongols are still pushing, so I commit the last reserve: The Sultan himself and his bodyguard. The desert archers keep up the fire. Thirty-six bodyguard charge into the wild melee. The sultan was one of two left before I finally got them out.
The Mongols are beaten, and what's left of my Mameluk archers chase them mercilessly, even going after the trebuchet crews.
Two more Mongol stacks routed. That makes three. A second of their generals killed.
My depleted sultan's army is attacked again. I can't stand against another full stack, and retreat. New troops are headed my way from across the empire , mercenaries are hired and more units rebuilt in Mosul and Baghdad. Two more full stacks are ready near Mosul, and I attack the army that forced me from the bridge.
So now I'm the attacker at the famous gorge. I send a mercenary elephant unit across the bridge to cause some losses, create some confusion, and then run amok. They do a little, then rout without running amok. Uh-oh.
My full-stack army gets wiped out, almost to a man. This time, my reinforcements are riding to my rescue. My original general's bodyguard stack is covering himself with glory as unit after unit routs or is simply wiped out. At one point, I'm more than 60 percent casualties among my two stacks and the Mongols are in the 40s with one. But this time, they run out of men. They commit missile troops to melee, but these cav archers (who must have been out of arrows) are not Mamaluk archers. They commit their general, who's killed. The dam bursts, and the Mongols are swept away. All that's left of my original stack is a bodyguard unit that's down to 10 men and one dismounted Arab Cavalry that has about one man left and he hasn't reached the map edge.
Four Mongols stacks routed. Three of their generals killed.
And that's that. I'm installing the patch today, and have no doubt that my vast Egyptian empire's ability to reinforce itself would ultimately defeat the Mongols. I can take losses. He can't.
CaptainSolo
12-15-2006, 17:18
That was an excellent read Doug :book:
Once i get the patch i'll be starting a new game,probably with Egypt.Even more so now you have shown the Mongols to be beatable.
Update the thread and let us know how your campaign progresses.
Doug-Thompson
12-15-2006, 18:19
Thanks, CaptainSolo. Regrettably, however, I won't be able to finish that campaign after installing the patch.
Key points to remember when fighting Mongols as Egyptians, however:
1. Mameluk Archers have a melee option that Mongol Horse Archers don't have. Mongol Heavy Horse Archers are a dead-on match for Mameluk Archers in melee and have 3-silver experience to boot, but the basic MHA is outclassed, particularly if your MA have some experience and upgrades.
2. Mongols have no javelins. Those are the perfect weapons for softening up their lancers and other decent melee cavalry. You may have to turn skirmish off if the brawl is big. Otherwise, they have trouble getting in range of the units you really want to kill.
3. Saracen Militia are a fine, solid spear unit. So are dismounted Arab Cavalry.
4. Desert Archers are a fine, solid archery unit.
5. Arab cavalry are too light for this work.
6. Kwazian (sp?) cavalry is generously available as mercenaries. They're not as good as melee Mamalukes but will do.
7. Although I've disparaged artillery elephants in other places, firing across that gorge at long range would be a lot of fun.
CaptainSolo
12-15-2006, 18:31
A shame that Doug,it would have been interesting to see how the rest of the war played out.
Also,thanks for the tips,i'm looking forward to getting started with the Egyptians and i'll keep your advice in mind.
I'm getting desperate to meet the Mongols and the Timurids now... should be so much fun. Nice account Doug.
Solo, all the factions are beatable. People like to hype.
I think you can continue the campaign Doug, at least I have'nt tried continuing mine just yet (busy with other stuff), but I think the patch is compatible.
Doug-Thompson
12-15-2006, 21:04
Lo and behold, the patch is compatible. Why can't I read some of those announcements correctly? Oh well.
I fought another Mongol battle during lunch, This one killed their faction leader, Khan Orda, at at a much more shallow river crossing between Mosul and Baghdad. It was also by far the most decisive victory yet. For once I took out a Mongol stack without losing one.
(Lucky for me I wasn't facing Orda Khan :wink:)
No reinforcements for either side.
I've changed my mind about cannon elephants. I was pretty disparaging about them in another thread. This time I had hired some as mercenaries. I stuck them far out on my left high up on the river bank, where they could fire into the enemy's 2 o'clock, hopefully get some raking action and do some long-range sniping. They did -- and killed 158 men out of a 746-man army by themselves without getting in range of Mongol arrows, except for one brief moment by my mistake. I'm getting ahead of myself, though.
The Mongols wait long enough to see if I'm an idiot who will cross the river to attack them. I'm far enough back from the bank that they can't snipe at me with either their trebuchets or rocket launchers, much less arrows. I have an army unusually heavy (for me) with infantry: Saracen Militia, dismounted Arab Cavalry, at least four Desert Archers and one militia archer, a unit of mercenary javelin infantry in their usual general-killing role, supported by Khwarazmian heavy cavalry and Mameluk Archers, about four each. There are the aforementioned elephants and my general, too, but for once my general didn't have to fight.
I start sniping at their heavy cavalry archers with my EleCannons, turning off fire-at-will and settling on some good Mongol lancers that are almost directly across the river from my big new pets. The Mongols sweat and groan and push two trebuchets over there to counterfire. I wait until they're almost in position, then switch fire to the treb crews. You can't target the trebs themselves, but you can target the crews with a good chance of hitting the trebs. Those stray shots cause 20 percent damage a hit. The Mongols shove their trebs away, back toward the center of their line without firing a shot. At this point, I stop fire to conserve ammo. The battle hasn't started yet and 7 percent of the Mongol army is dead.
Rising to the inevitable, the Mongols cross the river in a typical Total War cross the river lunge. I commit everything right away, because I don't want those Mongol horse archers slipping around me. The Mongols are going to die, but the real issue now is how much of an army will I have left.
That where the elephants come in again. Barely having to move, they take the river crossing under constant fire, having to switch targets as units stream past. I'm wishing for a "fire at this spot" command, but otherwise do fine.
As the Mongols get across, the elephant's cannons target large clumps of units at the tail end of their formation. Although my troops in melee could use some help, friendly fire from a cannon is dangerous. The archers, foot and horse, are all firing at will, and all are firing.
I don't want to give the impression that the elephants won the battle all by themselves. They didn't .They just had the most unique role, which requires more description. The rest of the battle was a textbook contested river crossing fight, with Mameluk archers and their Desert Archer cousins sweeping the air with arrows. Between that and the return fire, a cricket could have jumped from arrow to arrow from one side of the Mongol army to the other.
Then two things happened. The Khan crossed the river and Mongol rocket launchers started to get to the other side. Trebuchets were getting across too, but it wasn't exactly their kind of fight.
I sent every heavy cavalry unit I had, plus a spear unit, plus my Javelin-hurling king-killers after the khan. That left an opening for some light Mongol lancers to make a half-hearted lunge at my general, but they quickly turned aside and got spanked by my general's bodyguard for their trouble. Meanwhile, my EleCannons, with seemingly limitless ammo, take the rocket launchers under fire. It's personal. If I ever saw a weapon that looked like it might scare elephants, it's a Mongol Rocket Launcher.
The Khan is captured by heavy cavalry. What's left of the Mongol army starts to panic. They're pushed into the river and chased by my largely intact Mameluk Archers, which now switch roles to melee cav. The Mongol army is 95 percent destroyed. Me? About 30 percent. The Mongols refuse the ransom, including the $10K for the Khan alone.
Oh, by the way, about half the provinces in my Empire are hit with the Black Death. So far, the chief consequence is financial. However, I've been able to raise my taxes and had about $18K florins in the bank, so I should be OK for at least three turns. My largest expense, by far, is army expense. I should have enough troops to fight the rest of the Mongols off.
CaptainSolo
12-15-2006, 23:04
Excellent stuff Doug,i was hoping you'd post an update.
What's interesting about this is that it's the opposite to what i saw many people recommend in various threads,(ie) Hold up in your largest citadels and cities,though the idea of limiting the mobility of the mongol army may be the same i have a feeling you are able to inflict heavier casualties with this approach,though i have yet to try either myself.
I always knew it would be a war of attrition and heavy on the bank balance but you seem to be getting on top of them now.
Judging by a few of your earlier posts it seems i have underestimated the Mamluk troops a little as they sound very effective in your descriptions.How do you rate them against other troops of a similair type? I don't mean in a 1 V 1 custom battle but in larger engagements,say against the Turks and their various horse archer units who i imagine you have crossed swords with at some point?
Thanks in advance.
That was an excellent read. Well done. Sounds like an awesome battle.
I tried the Rocket Launchers in custom, and holy smoking macarel, they are mean. I love the elephant artillery as well, it's great fun to watch them shoot. I love all things projectile, so am a big artillery fan as well. Once gunpowder comes around I'll be using some canon and musket armies in supplement to the usual all cavalry combined arms.
It's Khwarazmian, named (as you know I suppose) after the empire of the same name. The cavalry is an abstract generalisation in M2:TW.
The spelling varies from source to source but in Persian it's pronounced Khhh-waa-raz-me-an, or Khhwaa-raz-me-an.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezmid_Empire
Doug-Thompson
12-16-2006, 00:34
Thanks, CaptainSolo. I get the impression that other players have had to bear much more of the brunt of Mongol attacks. I've read about three waves of Mongols and have only seen two, and one of them had suffered losses. I've destroyed five Mongol stacks, and they're down to three full ones left, two partials that add up to at least one more and a remnant — as far as I know.
My long peace with the Mongols allowed me to build up armies and my economy. I'm not sure that's going to be an option after the second patch comes out, with it's advertised added Mongol agressiveness.
As for Mameluk Archers (MamAs), Turkis Saphis have slightly better stats. I assume building requirements for them are similar, but would have to check. The real advantage of the MamA is that an Egyptian economy will provide, retrain and maintain them in large numbers. :egypt:
A top contender for the best horse archer would be the Byz Vardariotai, for example. You can only get at a castle. You can't increase a castles output of them with stables, either.
You can make or retrain MamAs at a city with a level-3 racetrack or a relatively low-tier castle, and you can boost production at castles with stables. I'm embarrased to admit that I'll have to look up the building requirements tonight, but they're not demanding.
Other factions might have building requirements as low. They often do not, however, have trading income cash cows like Alexandria or Antioch. Farming income in Egypt is not to be dismissed, either. Playing the Egyptians won't solve all money problems, but it should help.
MamAs aren't the best cavalry archers, but they're very good and a "critical mass" of them can be built in, supported in or moved to and resupplied in all sorts of far-flung places.
Orda Khan
12-16-2006, 12:40
It has more to do with the General behind them!!
Cowering behind walls is no way to behave, you have to fight fire with fire and let the tactical brilliance of your command be the deciding factor.
They sounded like fantastic battles Doug but I have to ask, what did Orda ever do to you?
........Orda
Great writeup mate :P
....I still reckon the vards would win :D
Note one thing that Siphais and Vards don't have is an armour piercing melee attack.
Mamluk archers actually have an armour piercing melee attack according to the text files released recently. Mongol Heavy Archers also have it which might explain higher than expected casualties when I fight them with my heavy cav.
CaptainSolo
12-17-2006, 00:13
Thanks for the reply Doug-Thompson.This thread and your battle narratives have been a very interesting and pleasurable read.
As for Mameluk Archers (MamAs), Turkis Saphis have slightly better stats. I assume building requirements for them are similar, but would have to check. The real advantage of the MamA is that an Egyptian economy will provide, retrain and maintain them in large numbers.
Which i would imagine is an important consideration,especially in your current campaign.I would imagine a couple of experience chevrons would even up whatever small difference there might be in melee although as you say thats an option they have on the battlefield even if it's not their main function.In my current campaign with the Moors i found the desert cavaly unit's i deployed to be lethal given a little experience and have used them even late on in my game.The Horse archer is something the Moors don't have so i'm looking forward to getting a good mix between the two when i start my Egyptian campaign.
MamAs aren't the best cavalry archers, but they're very good and a "critical mass" of them can be built in, supported in or moved to and resupplied in all sorts of far-flung places.
Too true,i suppose their availability also enables you too build armies quickly in regions where they may be required in a hurry,either to support an existing army or in the creation of a new one.
Thanks for the Lowdown on this unit Doug.Having recently played a few large scale custom battles with Egypt i have also found the regular mamluks to be a lot better than i imagined too.I have no idea why i have underestimated these units,probably stat snobbery,as if i hadn't learned already that 1 V 1 custom battles rarely mean a lot in comparison to large scale campaign battle scenarios.In the large custom battles i have fought as Egypt they have been a very steady unit,even in prolonged melee.Must say 'hands on' i'am very impressed with both so far.
I believe that Mamluk Archers can actually beat Siphais 1 on 1. However, you can field more siphais due to their 175 upkeep rather than the 210 upkeep of the Mamluk Archers.
Build reqs should be similar, both buildable at racetracks in cities (awesome!). Turkish economy should be same as Egyptian one as I usually smash the Egyptians within first 15 turns or so as the Turks.
nice account, from what i understand of what you are doing i would suggest a couple of changes in approach that will result in less heavy casualties.
from what i understand you seem to end up regularly having cav vs cav melle fights? obviously ideally you want to avoid this, without the charge bonus statistically similar units of cav are going to cause similiarly high casualties on both sides -it is aproximately a fair fight = a war of attrition. ideally you want cavalry to be involved only in unfair fights to your benefit, non?
i am thinking that this because you have insufficient spearmen and you are forced to commit cav becuase the mongols manage to cross the bridge - and thenn you charge you cav in?
whenever i face the mongols in a bridge battle i have a heroic victory, with relatively few casualties from top of the range units.
i know you are a horse archer fan but i would suggest including more spearmen in your bridge battle stacks - say at least 5 units. most of the rest of your army should be missile units -horse archers, javelins, foot archers are all fine. heavy cav are unecessary as you shant get the opportunity to charge and you ha's will be fine for chasing down routers at the end.
my approach is to rush a couple of units of spear inot the entrance of the bridge. the mongols charge into them and cause heavy cas on both sides, i then throw in my remaining spears for support as and when they are needed. the key is that the mongols never get off the bridge. eventually their general eventually dies and they run away -the routers are then chased down, battle over.
you suffer heavy casualties from at least the first two units of spear but the rest of your army is fine. obviously following the battle you are regularly attacked imediately by more stacks. i would say if you have les than 4 viable units of spear then this approach will not work and you should retreat.
i hope you dont mind my suggestions, i know you are a very experienced player and if i misunderstood what was happening please correct me.
one thing i have never experienced though is prolonged standoffs across the river -they laways charge headlong into my spear. ther are a couple of reasons i can think for why this happened to you but not me. firstly sprinting my spear units onto the bridge might be provoking an attack - that or the fact that i set up my infantry v close to entrance of th bridge before the battle. the other factor maybe the ai recognsise your cav heavy army as being stronger than my typical set up of spears and foot archers and this causes it to be more circumspect??
captain solo - bridges are the best spots to defeat mongols cheaply + you invariably kiill their generals. obviously it avoids disrupting you towns for a while as well.
Doug-Thompson
12-17-2006, 06:16
It's over. The Mongol faction is destroyed. The plague has run its course too.
There was one more battle at the shallows, and one at the gorge. The one at the shallows was the same as before, with another Mongol stack gone at acceptable losses for me. The one at the gorge had the Egyptians outnumbered about 2 to 1. A full stack of Mongols was reinforced by another and they all crossed together. The bridge and the gully on my end was still a deathtrap, though, and the lines of Saracen Militia, dismounted Arab Cavalry, Desert Archers, one set of elephants, javelinmen and Mameluks held.
The plague must have taken its toll of Mongols too, for that was almost the last of them. Two partial stacks which didn't amount to one whole one was all that was left.
I spent a turn replacing loses, then went after them. My forces from the gorge crossed the river and caught the smaller Mongol force. My force from the shallows closed in from the east but wasn't in reinforcement range yet.
The larger Mongol force arrived as reinforcements in my attack on the smaller bunch. I'd considered a night attack, but rejected that option to get my chance to finish it all in one day.
The reinforcements would have come in on my right if I'd attacked the smaller bunch, so I attacked the larger one instead as they arrived: No sitting back and shooting, just charging straight in for melee. I killed the khan and, in a hard and close fight, destroyed the larger bunch and most of the smaller one, which didn't shy away from the battle. The remaining Mongols retreated and were so few, I sent my general to the east closer, leaving his infantry behind and closing with a small force of cavalry, including his cannon elephants. I had miscalculated, though, and couldn't quite reach the last, new khan. Oh well. They'd die next turn.
Next turn, my best general, the one to the east with the small force of cavalry, went rebel. His former, comparatively large force of infantry, including Desert Archers and javelinmen, attacked without cavalry. They were beaten, but not before javelins had killed about half his elephants and arrows much of his cavalry. He had too few units left for an effective pursuit, and most of the force got away.
The Mongols had 51 troops left, a third of that being bodyguards. This last group took up a position on a small, climbable ridge and accepted the inevitable bravely. The bodyguard never routed, dying to the last man at the spot where they ended their first and last charge.
The huge Egyptian force could still move. It struck again, at the rebel general. He refused the first round, ironically retreating right up against the infantry force he'd already beaten. My main army still had enough movement to follow and, having no stomach for killing my "Benedict Arnold," I autoresolved his inevitable death.
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KARTLOS, you're absolutely right. The trouble is, there's a cap now on how many spear units I could make. I used up every bit of produceable Saracen infantry and dismounted Arab cavalry available in Baghdad and Mosul, and marched more in from elsewhere. I could have produced cheaper spears, but preferred not to. That was probably a mistake, but I like unit types that have a fighting chance. After the plague hit and my economy tanked, supplies of spearmen -- and Mameluks -- dried up. I will have a force of improved Saracen Infantry and Kurdish Javelinmen in place in time to welcome the Timurids, however.
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Note one thing that Siphais and Vards don't have is an armour piercing melee attack.
Mamluk archers actually have an armour piercing melee attack according to the text files released recently. Mongol Heavy Archers also have it which might explain higher than expected casualties when I fight them with my heavy cav.
Mystery solved. Great find, katank.
I saw the club the MamAs use, and wondered if they had an anti-armor bonus. This is role reversal -- in MTW1, melee Mameluks had axes and an anti-armor bonus but not much of a charge. MTW1 Mameluk HA were a good-enough HA, but nothing to write home about.
This new information explains why Mongol heavy lancers didn't cut through my MamAs and, frankly, explains a lot.
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Oh, I've got nothing against Khan Orda -- other than that he insisted on attacking me. I'm just glad it wasn't you at that river. :wink: I don't thing you would have bashed your head against that wall for me.
Congrats, and thanks for keeping us updated. :)
Excellent writeup - you've persuaded me to start an egyptian campaign (my current vh/vh hre one is seeming far too easy so i think i'll abandon it)
I'd love to do Egys too, but I'm kind of wanting to do one of the Catho factions. Must be really great to play one of the "Big Five".
I still want to play these:
Egypt
Timurids
Mongols
Moors
English
HRE
Venice
Now I only need to find 1000 hours out of somewhere to accomplish this goal.
Doug-Thompson
12-17-2006, 19:08
One last point: Building and replacing Mameluk Archers is easier than I knew. All you need is a second-tier horse track, which any large city can have.
Great. The Turkish (not so equivalent) light horse archers, the Turcomen, require the first level race track.
Siphais require second tier racetrack as well.
I guess Sipahi is the Turkish equivalent statwise, right ?
Doug-Thompson
12-18-2006, 17:53
Yes, the Saphi has similar stats but morale is not as good.
BTW, the Timurids have shown up. I wasn't that impressed at first. A stack and a half north of Baghdad? Then -- I saw the other five stacks in the desert south of Baghdad.
Great, I'm all set up for another Mongol-like bash at the river crossings. My line's are totally turned. I'm falling back on Mosul expecting to fight it out in the open. Then, to my stuptification, the Timurids south of Baghdad don't even try to siege there. They cross the shallows and go into the same box I'd kept the Mongols in all those years. Now it looks like they're going to try forcing the gorge.
This may just be the first wave. We'll see. I'm bigger, richer and have worked out a "daisy chain" of cities and a few forts to keep a constant supply of infantry and other reinforcements, including cannon, flowing to the Mosul region.
Fantastic. Take some screenshots, only if it's feasible. I'm still waiting for the Mongols. I think I will amend the files to make them appear a bit earlier. Only 1165 now.
Doug-Thompson
12-20-2006, 20:26
The second wave did come and is trying to cut Baghdad off. When I set up stacks to guard each river crossing anywhere near Baghdad or Mosul, they went deep across Jedda province and crossed the river far, far to the west and south of Baghdad. Then they looped back in a crude but effective envelopment. They got to that last crossing one turn before another stack of mine arrived, for a grand total of five stacks for me and 10 for them.
So there I was, with five stacks of Timurids between Mosul and Baghdad and another five east of Mosul. Baghdad is fully garrisoned, has cannon towers and a massive archer and Saracen Militia garrison. They will take out several stacks before going down. The right course of action was obvious. Let the Timurids whittle themselves down at Baghdad and hit them after they are weakened.
S*rew that. I attacked them and started the war.
Maybe I'm stubborn. Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe I'm both those and crazy too. But the devil seize my soul before I'll let anybody have one of my cities without a fight.
So far, I've lost two stacks and have developed a pathological hatred of elephants. They've lost two stacks too, however, including about five formations of elephants completely wiped out. Desert Cav and their javelins would be the perfect elephant hunters if they could just take a little more damage, allowing them to fight through screening units and get at the elephants faster. I'll have to pay more attention to armor upgrades in the future. I've had to turn skirmish off to get the Desert Cavalry close enough several times. I also gladly accept fights in sandstorms. Weather doesn't effect javelins as much as arrows, which is fine with me and my double-duty melee-capable Mameluks and not so fine with the archer-heavy Timurids.
Meanwhile, I've replaced all my losses by drawing on reinforcements as far away as Gaza. Cannon from as far as Corinth are coming in by sea, too. The gorge north of Mosul is a fortress of cannon, spear infantry, javelin foot, archers and heavy cavalry. Tanks couldn't get through there. Mosul is as fully garrisoned as Baghdad, possibly better. Edessa and Damascus are ready too.
Two down. Eight more to go. I haven't had this much fun since last Christmas.
Good to hear from you ! Was peeping in to look for updates.
Sounds awesome.. and you're right about attacking them.
Aggression and fighting spirit MEANS SOMETHING in combat !
How are the SM holding out ? Are they any use at all or just cannon fodder ?
I've had to revert to an earlier save, because I accidently loaded an older save and then quicksaved over the newest one by mistake. So I'm about 4-5 hours further away from the Mongols yet. Ugh.
Doug-Thompson
12-20-2006, 21:19
How are the SM holding out ? Are they any use at all or just cannon fodder ?
I'll get back to you on that one after the Siege of Baghdad, which appears certain to happen. The Saracen Militia haven't hit a lick yet. They would have been wonderful for the bashing battles I had with the Mongols, but so far it's been all hit-and-run. There's only one good road in the whole region. Infantry would be trapped in the off-road desert.
CaptainSolo
12-21-2006, 02:15
Thanks for updating the thread Doug-Thompson,it's been a really entertaining read.
Are the tactics you employed so successfully against the Mongols still valid for large engagements against the Timurids or are you having to change anything? Also,what are the main differences/similarities between those two factions?
Really looking forward to see the results of some large scale siege battles,keep up the good work!
Dunno about Doug but OMG Elephants is my personal experience. The Timurids are quite similar to Mongols in fielding much of the same units. The difference is that they have some Halberd militia and then the musket ele and arty ele.
For a HA army, the Halb militia are easy prey (better than fighting Mongol Inf for sure). The eles are a huge threat. They can bombard you from range and also scare the living daylights out of your units (with both ele and gunpowder morale penalties). I've had 9 valour Siphais rout from contact with eles before.
HAs are woefully ill-equipped to deal with eles. The arrows have a very difficult time getting through all that armour+HP. Foot archers with flame arrows do a bit better.
What you really need are naffatun/ballistas. Naffatuns are hard to use against eles mostly because they'd likely be killed by the Timurid cav. Ballistas, however, are great. 3 units with flame bolts can decimate an ele unit in no time and often send them amok in enemy ranks. Rocket launchers do well too. One caveat is that ballistas can't fire down hill and thus you may have to give up your height advantage if you wan to protect your ballistas.
I believe mercenary rocket launchers are available for hire in the steppes. I don't know if that helps. Saw that in the merc file.
Merc rocket launchers are beautiful. During a sally, one unit of my merc rockets sat in the gateway and started unloading on the Timurid eles. First, a stray rocket hits their general on the head. Next, 2 units of eles amok. After some more shooting, 2 more eles went amok. To add icing to the cake, the amok eles ran over roughly 80% of their cav force including their second general.
End result: a single unit led to the death of 2 8* generals as well as neutralizing the majority of cav in 2 stacks and 4 eles. They later withdrew and I marched some missile units out to execute the amok eles.
Note: this was during 1.0. With passive AI fix, YMMV.
CaptainSolo
12-21-2006, 04:28
Thanks for the info Katank,very interesting.I have no experience with either of these factions or regions...yet,so it's nice to get an overview.
Really looking forward to starting my Egyptian campaign,when i get a good stretch of free time that is :juggle2: :thumbsdown:
Doug-Thompson
12-21-2006, 16:31
Katank's right. The big difference between Timurids and Mongols are the elephants. Desert Cavalry javelins are the best unit I've found out in the open. Once their elephants are dead, the Timurids aren't so tough.
Bear in mind that they have naptha units too, which can provide nasty surprizes.
How are your own elephants doing ? I believe you hired some right ?
Doug-Thompson
12-21-2006, 17:18
How are your own elephants doing ? I believe you hired some right ?
They're outnumbered. The regular elephant unit managed to do quite a bit of damage, though, in a fight with an opposing elephant unit. They died fighting when another elephant unit showed up. The Elephant artillery unit I have as a merc hasn't gotten into action yet.
Your merc elephants simply don't have the experience to match. This means they are outclassed and will often rout unlike the Timurid juggernauts.
Have any of you noticed a unit in the files called "Elephant Rocketeer"? You can use the create_unit cheat to get some in the game. Very fun to muck around with. These will probably pwn the Timurids. Tis a cheat though.
Is that anything like the Yubtseb Elephants from RTW?
Doug-Thompson
12-22-2006, 17:20
I greatly enjoyed my first clear-cut, smashing victory against the Timurids last night. I wiped out a whole stack, including their faction leader, with one stack of my own and with more than half my troops surviving.
It was an unexpected triumph for Desert Cavalry, and an unintended one too.
The victory was set up by two disasters. First, I had a very bloody loss in a battle where I accomplished my goal -- killing a very good Timurid general. I paid too high a price, however. I started with one full stack and one small, partial stack as reinforcements. They fought a partial stack but with a full one and another partial coming as reinforcements. My troops retreated toward Baghdad, where they were now in danger of being cut off with two generals.
At the beginning of the next turn, a general with a whole stack went rebel. Oddly, it was a stack composed entirely of Saracen Infantry, except for the general's bodyguard. They were on their way to replace the dismounted Arab Cavalry and Militia Spears in the Mosul Garrison and in the army watching the gorge. The general performing this simple ferry mission had good loyalty, so this was a complete surprize. I can only assume my earlier, clear defeat had caused this.
Unfortunately for him, there was a three-quarters stack of Mameluk Archers and some melee Mameluks right next to him, with plenty of reinforcements of more Mameluks Archers and some Desert Cavalry on hand to fill that stack up.
The results were predictable. The general was captured after a brave but desperate early charge, and presumably executed in a very public and painful fashion. The rest of his army was killed outright or routed.
Meanwhile, the Timurids has moved in a way that seemed designed to cut my two generals off near Baghdad. Their faction leader had even moved south of a bridge to cut off any attempt to go that way. Therefore, his stack was not on the river and was out of reinforcement range.
Note here that every full Timurid stack has some infantry in it: foot archers or halberdiers, or both. This gives my all-calvary stacks — including the depleted stacks fleeing their earlier defeat — a real and important maneuver advantage. I've yet to be forced into a battle with a Timurid stack that I didn't want. Infantry is guarding the gorge and all my cities, but the rest of the army is free to move about.
Obviously, the stack to attack was the faction leader's. However, I had planned to mix some stacks into more balanced armies. With one stack depleted and another diverted to kill off traitors, the only stack I had left that could reach the head Timurid was ridiculously full of Desert Cavalry. As I recall, I'd been short of Desert Cavalry and had relieved that shortage by building a bunch in one turn. Now I had a stack with six heavy cavalry (including the general's unit), four Mameluk Archers and the rest wholly filled with Desert Cavalry.
Oh well. You go to war with the army's you've got.
The Timurids accepted battle immediately at 1 to 1 odds. They had a balanced force of heavy horse archers, lancers, missile infantry and halberdiers. I lined my Mameluks up first, followed by a dense pack of Desert Cavalry in two-row formation and in squares and then an even more dense two-row formation of heavy cavalry in two-rank lines.
The battle opened with the Timurids on a small ridge in front of me, with archer cavalry on the wings and their leader in the middle, behind layered lines of lancers, foot archers and halberds. I go right for the throat, sending some Mameluk archers to attack some missile cavalry that's trying to get in the way while the rest of the army rushes right for the khan.
I'm halfway to the Timurid leader before realizing the obvious: I have so many javelins, I could kill pigeons and squirrels with them and still have plenty of ammo to attach the heavy armored units. Yet I still have the Desert Cavalry in my habitual mode, with fire-at-will off and skirmish on, intent on assassinating the general. I have them all in a group. I hit "run," turn skirmish off and, as they approach the middle of the Timurid line, I click "fire at will." More by luck than by design, my heavy cavalry charged home at that moment.
It all looked like a hurricane hitting a hardware store, with nails flying in all directions, only the nails were javelins.
I'm no fan of or advocate for one-unit armies. However, at this particular time in this particular place under those particular conditions, the result of this mass concentration of javelins (and melee cavalry, along with arrows the MamA's which were now focused on the halberdiers) was everything that could be hoped for. The enemy lancers simply evaporated, it seems. The last I saw of their halbrediers was a few of their panicked survivors making an ultimately very unsuccessful flight for their lives. The missile infantry was gone before I had a chance to see what happened to them.
Before that moment, the Timurid leader was confindently protected by a balanced army. About 15 seconds later, he was fighting to the death, hemmed in on three sides by heavy cavalry while some MamA's and Desert Cavalry were moving to cut off his last possible daylight, with javelins hitting every member of his bodyguard. He survived only because he was captured. Meanwhile, his cavalry archers were getting some decent kill rates out of their accurate fire, but it was all irrelevant. Once the khan was captured, it was all a matter of chasing down the few survivors and charging the missile cavalry from all directions until they routed.
I had more than 3,000 florins worth of prisoners in addition to the khan, who was worth another 10,000. The Timurids would probably have refused anyway, as the Mongols did under similar circumstances. They never got the chance. This is war to the knife. After the prisoners were executed, what was left of the enemy army routed. I put the troops remaining after the victory at a river crossing. The next turn, the Timurids did not attack and my depleted stacks near Baghdad got clean away.
Glorious victory, Doug. From what I gather, the desert cav were unvalored? (Just built, right?) Were they firing at their longest range? Sounds like I gotta give those puppies a try.
@ Quillan, sadly, no. They are not oversized and the rocket launchers strapped to the backs of the eles only have 6 rockets (scaled down versions of the regular ones). However, 3 units of fully upgraded rocket elephants managed to kill a 700 men balanced Sicilian force with 0 casualties (1:1) power graph BTW.
CaptainSolo
12-22-2006, 18:48
Glorious victory, Doug. From what I gather, the desert cav were unvalored? (Just built, right?) Were they firing at their longest range? Sounds like I gotta give those puppies a try.
I'd definitely recommend trying them Katank.The longest campaign i have played was as the Moors and i always had at least four units of them in each stack.For some reason they always seemed to gain valour really quickly at which point they became as invalueable at melee against weaker units as they did at their missile attack.They were instrumental in my defeat of Portugal as well as Spain in my campaign which could field heavier units.
As usual a great read Doug,it's wetting my appetite until i start my Christmas holidays and can get stuck into a prolonged campaign instead of killing time by playing a variety of them when i have a little spare time.
I get the impression that you are adopting a more aggressive style of campaign against the Timurids.Is that a more viable strategy against these due to their army composition? Againist the Mongols it was a more defensive campaign that you fought.Also,how do their infantry stack up against that of the Mongols and in particular against your own troops.
Thanks in advance.
Doug-Thompson
12-22-2006, 20:39
From what I gather, the desert cav were unvalored? (Just built, right?) Were they firing at their longest range?
Rookies to a man. I don't think there was a cheveron of experience in the lot, although there were some base-level armor upgrades. They started out firing at long range but kept closing and firing.
These aren't the javelins we were used to in MTW1. I don't know how the range compares, but it's longer than I remember it. And each unit has eight javelins. It was four in MTW1. The cavalry seems to do well, too. Although it's only a 40-man unit compared to a Kurdish infantry's 60, the cavalry version has a base missile attack of 8 rather than the infantry's 6, and the cavalry fires on the move. Therefore, it gets to actually throw more often.
I get the impression that you are adopting a more aggressive style of campaign against the Timurids.Is that a more viable strategy against these due to their army composition? Againist the Mongols it was a more defensive campaign that you fought. Also,how do their infantry stack up against that of the Mongols and in particular against your own troops.
Strictly a function of geography. The Mongols attacked the Russians first and wandered down into my territory. I had stacks at the gate preventing them from wandering. The Timurids showed up both north and south of Baghdad, preventing me from bottling them up.
Their infantry, frankly, is arguably more of a liability than an asset. All they have are foot archers that aren't impressive in melee, some halberdiers who are easily shot up and some naptha units that are best avoided and killed from a distance. They slow the big Timurid stacks down in the largely roadless terrain.
Sounds great. I'd really like to try the Eggy now. Desert cav+Mamluk Archers+Mamluk cav sounds like a killer combo.
Sabadar Militia is about the equals of Mongol Infantry. Halberd militia and naffatun are simply pincushions. Timurid's only challenge to an Eastern army is elephants which you need to counter with foot archers with flame or siege. The halb militia and naffatun combined with elephants is probably designed to make holding the line with heavy infantry no longer a viable solution (hence harder than Mongols to Western armies).
Doug-Thompson
01-02-2007, 16:45
On turn 170, in the year 1418 by the Christian calendar, the Timurids were wiped out as a faction.
There were two more attrition battles, but the next one was decisive. It was fought near Aleppo, after they marched past my well-garrisoned sites of Mosul and Baghdad. They left one bit of a statck dangling, which I attacked wtih two stacks and they reinforced with one. It was a clear-cut decisive victory.
The same turn, I consolidated units and attacked the Timurid faction leader with a good-quality, full veteran stack. The Timurids had a short march to a very high hill that dominated the battlefield, but I sent three Desert Cavalry charging hell-for-leather to that hill. They crested it just as the Timurids were coming up the other side — with two full-strength units of elephants and another close at hand.
What a difference a little height makes. The Desert Cavalry massacred both elephants, sending their routed, maddened and amok remnants to flight. The Mameluk archers also made good use of the elevation the DC's won for them, and slaughtered hosts of Timurids before the melee cavalry formed up and charged.
The Timurid Khan got away, however, but only to flee within the range of another stack, which finished the job.
King Bob VI
01-02-2007, 22:21
Great stuff, Doug.
I'll have to try Egypt after my current Spanish camp.
I'm enjoying this just as much as I enjoyed reading your AoK guides back in the day at Age of Kings Heaven. I don't think you were still around when I joined AoKH, but I always loved reading your stuff in the archives.
Doug-Thompson
01-03-2007, 06:52
Thanks for the kind words, King Bob VI. I had a lot of good fun on that forum, and learned a lot. I'm glad to know people are still getting some good out of what I picked up there.
Orda Khan
01-09-2007, 16:30
Well Doug, I finally bought the game. First thing I did was install the patch and Regnum Dei Premium and started a nice Mongol campaign :yes:
My armies are micro management heaven and it is just as I suspected it would be without highly upgraded Generals and units, their units are not so tough. Still, I am having a ball slaughtering Poles and Russians while I wait for my Invasion Force to arrive.
I am currently allied with Egypt but I may have to do something about that later on, if only to pay them back for what they did in your campaign :beam:
.......Orda
Doug-Thompson
01-09-2007, 17:11
I am currently allied with Egypt but I may have to do something about that later on, if only to pay them back for what they did in your campaign :beam:
Egypt is the land of endless money. You make a fortune conquering the Near East just to get to Egypt, too. Glad you are enjoying yourself, although I agree with you that the units should be better.
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