View Full Version : Moors: Camel Gunners are the BOMB!
WOW ! Now there's a freakin insane desert unit if there ever was one, firing on the move, excellent range, gunpowder weapons, great stamina, cooool graphics. Cavalry does'nt do all that to them, and what else ?
They own, that's what !
Excellent unit ! :whip:
chunkynut
12-13-2006, 15:53
hehe, if I can finish off either my spanish or danish campaigns the moors are my next likely faction for me to play, and thats because of the select faction menu bit showing the camel gunners.
Or it will be the turks (who I loved in MTW), I want a bit of a change from my 3 grand campaigns so far as catholics.
I need to get away from viva pinata on the 360 tho, its a kids game and i'm 25 but its a fantastic game ... I just feel a bit odd spending a whole day messing around with a virtual garden :help:
FactionHeir
12-13-2006, 16:17
I'm looking forward to them. I'm at turn 39 now and I set gunpowder to appear around 60-70 with the mongols, but I cannot get there just yet...I have an essay to write and research and have imposed on myself M2TW abstinence.
Well, uhhh i shouldn't be on the forum either huh?
Wonder how good those gunners are...
I thought so, my german "Reiter" only have pistols(small range but 20!!! ranged attack) but they can annihilate almost anything in a 1on1, including generals. And those guys are even formidable melee fighters and well armoured. I tried the camel gunners only in custom battle, but their longer range should make them more dangerous with their ranged weapons, guess they are not good for melee though, should they ever happen to get into one.
Doug-Thompson
12-13-2006, 17:29
As an added bonus, the theme from "Lawrence of Arabia" comes to mind every time I see them running. I halfway expect Omar Sharif to be riding one, putting a shot through somebody's head because "He drank from my well."
It is a great unit. You and Musashi should start a fan club.
======
Husar:
I'd very much like to know much more about Reiter tactics. They are so different from HA, with their shorter range, much greater punch and melee. They are like anti-armor javelin troops with MUCH more ammunition, like high-powered Polish Nobles. How do you use them?
chunky try Turks.. well you knew I'd say that. Moors should be extremely fun to play as well. Different play styles required for both.
HAHA ! yeah good idea Doug.
I only tried Camel gunners in custom battle. I hope to meet them in campaign but maybe by then the Moors will already be history not sure. In the custom battle they were amazing. Naturally I would'nt be removing them from their original habitat and marching them across Europe or anywhere else.
I've been hiring all the Bedou out of Arabia I can. I love the way the mercs are implemented in this game, quite few but well worth the flavor in florin terms. Alans and Armenians defend my border to the Caucaus, Bedou Camels and cavalry are on the move throughout Arabia suppressing rebels and moving West to hit the Moors.
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia1.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia2.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia3.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia4.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia5.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/arabia6.jpg
The battles are awesome. They have nicely textured the bedou and good details too. The Jezail that the Camel gunners use is also very nicely detailed.
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners1.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners2.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners3.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners4.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners5.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners6.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners7.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners9.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners10.jpg
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/cgunners11.jpg
El-Aurens, I know a man whose Grandfather had met him.
Apparently he was a very ordinary person vastly glorified. He did a great job though, and I absolutely love the movie. I have it lying right there on DVD. Watched it several times.
Oleander Ardens
12-13-2006, 20:32
Great pics!! ~:cheers:
I feel a Me-have-gun-on-smelly-camel feeling with a ride-bang!!-ride on charm mixed with Lawrence-heroic-music flavour ....
Go go go :smash:
Oh, I'm definitely another one of the Camel Gunner fanboys. Easily my favourite unit. Also the major reason why I'm praising the Moors in the 'Most powerful faction...' thread.
Great screenies BTW, Sinan
Doug-Thompson
12-13-2006, 21:52
Those screenshots are magnificent. Very framing of the shots. Worth the wait for anybody out there on a phone line.
El-Aurens, I know a man whose Grandfather had met him.
Apparently he was a very ordinary person vastly glorified. He did a great job though, and I absolutely love the movie. I have it lying right there on DVD. Watched it several times.
While I'd argue that he was too able with foreign languages and that his ability to fit in with other cultures made him too unique to be considered ordinary, Lawrence was by all accounts a much more modest and less conflicted person than the movie portrayed. Still, the movie is deep, well written and d*mn beautiful in both sight and sound. Absolutely one of the best. I went and saw it in the 1990s after it was restored. There is apparently a directors cut out on DVD now, too with considerably more scenes, including one at Allenby's headquarters.
Lowell Thomas, an American journalist who covered Lawrence for a while, agrees with you about Lawrence not being a showman. Lawrence's exploits made him the unintentional world's best at "backing into the limelight," as Thomas said.
beauchamp
12-14-2006, 00:25
Woa! Awsome, ive got to try that...how do you gain access to the camel-gunners?
I cant belive your grandfather met my Hero!
my grandfather was a russian butcher, I guess were all different....
:laugh4:
Woa! Awsome, ive got to try that...how do you gain access to the camel-gunners?
By building a Caravansary in a Fortress/Citadel and wait for the gunpowder age.
Thanks for the compliments.
BTW it was'nt my Grandad, was a friend's. And yes Doug that's exactly what I meant to say by ordinary, althoug that clearly was't the best word. BTW if you like period movies about the Middle East you might like The Message, and Omar Mukhtar: Lion of the Desert, if you have'nt seen those already. They are not quite the same as Lawrence of Arabia but I liked both of them when I watched them many years ago.
Anyone know if Tuareg Camels are bribeable or available for merc-hire ?
I looked this up to share the link and...
...to answer my own question a few months later (HOLY FREKIN THREAD REVIVAL BATMAN !!!) Tuareg Camels are not available as mercs.
camel gunners are over powered in my opinion. Elephant missile troops are tremendously powerful but have a catastrophic downside if they rout - camel's only weak point is their lack of armour so they are vulnerable to massed missle attack. Sneak a couple of units around the back of the enemy in a night battle and let them open up into the generals unit.
Camel gunners are indeed quite insane in certain circumstances.
They are relatively hard to get - IIRC you need a citadel plus caravansary then you get one very infrequently. Plus, of course, you have to wait for gunpowder. They didn't come along in my campaign until the game was about over.
I had one army of about 5 camel gunners, a bunch of jav cav (Desert cav and Granadine Jinetes), and one general.
The Danes tried to attack this army across a bridge. I put my camel gunners in a row just up a hill, with my jav cav in a row just behind. The camel gunners just blasted away at this big lump of troops the whole time across the bridge. When they started climbing the hill, I simply backed off my camels and let them walk up hill into a hail of javelins. The casualties were something like 1200 to 5. Each of the camel units had 100 or so kills.
They gain experience crazy fast.
Agent Smith
05-08-2007, 22:01
I love the Moors. They are one of my favorite factions second only to the Russians. They have good archers at the second level range, crossbowmen, good spear units, heavy infantry, heavy cav, the works!
Richard The Tiger Heart
05-08-2007, 22:38
I remember that my first multiplayer battle was against the moors and Ill never forget the enemy army sightings. The opposing player had chosen about 8 camel gunner units!
Although they looked pretty neat at the start I defeat the Moor army, thanks to my retinue longbowmen...:dizzy2:
I remember that my first multiplayer battle was against the moors and Ill never forget the enemy army sightings. The opposing player had chosen about 8 camel gunner units!
Although they looked pretty neat at the start I defeat the Moor army, thanks to my retinue longbowmen...:dizzy2:
Since their muskets outrange your bows, I'm surprised he let you get a shot in.
camel gunners truly are insane though not very good when it comes to sieges. Been playing as the moors for quite sometime, just waiting for the new world to appear to test the camel gunners against the Aztecs :yes:
Well, in extensive fights, they run out of ammunition faster than other gunpowder units I think.
Reiter hav far less range, but are faster, have even more firepower and more ammunition, plus better armour, in custom battle, they could catch up to camel gunners and kill them. They'd take some losses before they reach the camel gunners, but in the end, they usually win.
Haven't come across camel gunners outside of custom battles yet, though, they're pretty cool, but I wouldn't say overpowered.
Doug-Thompson
05-09-2007, 21:13
Well, in extensive fights, they run out of ammunition faster than other gunpowder units I think.
Reiter hav far less range, but are faster, have even more firepower and more ammunition, (emphasis added) plus better armour, in custom battle, they could catch up to camel gunners and kill them. They'd take some losses before they reach the camel gunners, but in the end, they usually win.
Haven't come across camel gunners outside of custom battles yet, though, they're pretty cool, but I wouldn't say overpowered.
To quibble just a little bit:
It is true that Camel gunners run out of ammunition faster than reiters, as a general rule.
However, reiters do not carry more ammo. Both units get 20 shots per man.
The very long range of the camel gunners keeps them firing constantly. Something is always in range.
If you leave camel gunners on fire-at-will, they will burn through their ammo with frontal long-range fire against armor and shields that's not very effective.
The trick is to get around to get a shieldless side or back shot, or set up some enfilade and then pick your target for concentrated fire.
To quibble just a little bit:
It is true that Camel gunners run out of ammunition faster than reiters, as a general rule.
However, reiters do not carry more ammo. Both units get 20 shots per man.
The very long range of the camel gunners keeps them firing constantly. Something is always in range.
If you leave camel gunners on fire-at-will, they will burn through their ammo with frontal long-range fire against armor and shields that's not very effective.
The trick is to get around to get a shieldless side or back shot, or set up some enfilade and then pick your target for concentrated fire.
I thought the high attack power and AP of guns meant armor doesn't protect as much as it does against arrows?
Richard The Tiger Heart
05-09-2007, 21:57
Since their muskets outrange your bows, I'm surprised he let you get a shot in.
Well indeed thats true. Once the game began my troops started receiving fire. I advanced and engaged my longbowmen...they didnt fall back... but I dont remember it very well now...it was a long time ago...:dizzy2:
It is true that Camel gunners run out of ammunition faster than reiters, as a general rule.
However, reiters do not carry more ammo. Both units get 20 shots per man.
Ah, I just rem,ember some custom battles I set up where the camel gunners ran out of ammo before all enemies were dead, while the reiters could shoot them till the last man, but that was back in 1.1, maybe the ammo count has been changed? Or it's just that their shots are more lethal.:shrug:
Shots are more lethal, higher damage.
Range is a factor. Reiters can get close because Camel Gunners won't skirmish away, but, the Camel Gunners will be shooting far earlier than Reiters.
RUHM EHRE UND VATERLAND !
Doug-Thompson
05-09-2007, 22:25
I thought the high attack power and AP of guns meant armor doesn't protect as much as it does against arrows?
You are correct, but some protection is still better than nothing, especially when longer range means fewer hits. Also, I believe that the closer you are, the more power you hit with. I've never seen anybody prove that's modelled in the game, but it certainly appears to be the case.
Ah, I just remember some custom battles I set up where the camel gunners ran out of ammo before all enemies were dead, while the reiters could shoot them till the last man, but that was back in 1.1, maybe the ammo count has been changed? Or it's just that their shots are more lethal.
I don't think the ammo count was changed in the patch, though. I do remember that the reiters had a whomping big attack, though. (Goes to look it up) Yep. It has a missile attack of 20 that's also armor-piercing, compared to the camel gunner's 16, also armor-piercing.
Doug-Thompson
05-22-2007, 22:34
Despite snow and other bad weather considerations, Moor camel gunners are particularly useful in Italy — because of the mountains.
Put camel gunners on a steep slope where Pavise Crossbows have trouble getting to them, and the Italian factions are toast.
I was heavily outnumbered when the Milanese tried to break my siege of Milan, but accepted battle anyway. I had 4.5 units of camel gunners, some depleted melee cav and some Grandine Jinetes. This faced a full stack and reinforcement from Milan that included some trebuchets, bodyguard cavalry, spears and masses of crossbowmen.
The trebuchets caused more casualties than the rest of the Italian army put together. I put my camel gunners on a small plateau on a very steep slope. I had to countercharge one bodyguard unit that turned tail and ran after a hail of jinette javelins from higher up. Once the spears and most of the enemy cavalry was routed, my cavalry charged down the hill and wiped out the rest.
Love those camel gunners.
The only problems I have with them are accuracy and replenishment rate.
Musketeers can easily outshoot them in a pure ranged duel but except them no units can reliably beat Camel Gunners. The combat penalty due to woods or snow doesn't matter because it's a ranged unit, so they can perform well in Northern Europe. They are also useful in sieges because they can fire over the heads of infantry as well as shoot at defenders through breaches from afar.
Doug-Thompson
05-23-2007, 14:36
They ... can fire over the heads of infantry as well as shoot at defenders through breaches from afar.
I tried that out last night. Put a line of camel gunners directly behind a front line of sword-and-shield infantry. Put the CG on "defend position" to keep them still.
The reason was that the enemy had four units of Venetian Archers, one of the few units missile cavalry should fear. I wanted to stay out of their range and see what the CG could do behind infantry.
Well, not only did I not lose a single infantryman from friendly fire (on an almost level field with a slight slope that helped) but the gunners tore up two of the Venitian archer units without taking a loss, as well as practically destroying two more crossbow units. And units behind the targets took severe casualties as well from overshoots.
This face-to-face shooting wasn't as effective as maneuvering around to get some crossfire, but each of my four units got at least 50 kills, including one half-strength unit that I assigned to destroy a badly protected bunch of crossbowmen.
Sounds like they beat the archers in a direct fire contest.
Which is a little wierd considering that their accuracy in the vanilla projectile file is considerably lower than that of bows.
Hi dopp
This supporting concentrated fire method dates from Shogun: Total War. People would use it with Samurai Archers... everything really. With missile cavalry it's much more useful, aim, fire, devastate, charge (if you need to), withdraw, repeat.
They seem quite accurate to me. I guess it's because I never use auto fire unless I am moving and I always use multiple mounted missile units against single enemy units. I target individually. I've never noticed them to be inaccurate. To the contrary it only needs me about 90-120 seconds to completely destory an enemy unit with 3-4 CGs. I have never used them 1vs1, that would be defeating the concentrated fire technique.
Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 16:31
Here's an evil thought. Put camel gunners behind a line of Sudanese gunners. Concentrated firepower galore.
Here's an evil thought. Put camel gunners behind a line of Sudanese gunners. Concentrated firepower galore.
I have jest started to recruit Sudanese Gunners. Will be try this soon, but will lose the movement factor so it may be a wash. Fun to try though. SadCat
@Sinan: Just wondering since their accuracy vs units is 0.065, compared to crossbows with 0.04 (not sure if these values actually do anything, since many projectiles have missing entries). Infantry firearms have awesome accuracy 0.0001, the reasoning being that they are volley firing (fire-by-rank) to create a killing zone where nothing can escape being hit. Camel gunners, on the other hand, snipe their targets individually, and thus the 'normal' accuracy of guns applies, which is pretty low.
In all, CA did a really nice job with the firearm troops this time round by giving them proper volley fire, compared to original MTW where they couldn't hit anything. If only the odd time lag that manifests itself after the first few salvoes was fixed, gunners would be pretty much perfect.
Furious Mental
05-28-2007, 17:30
Well does accuracy change with range? The proper way to do it would be to give firearms some stupidly high damage value but low accuracy so that they become devastating up close, regardless of armour.
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