Seleucids are godlike

[soibean]

Im playing as hayasdan and have been waging a war with the Seleucids for the past 15 years. It is enjoyable to see the seleucids actually be aggressive and continue to send armies, even stealthily through the hills where I cant see them! I love what you've done with Hayasdan btw.
The Seleucids are also at war with Baktria, The Ptolemies, and Pontos but after checking everyone's map information none of their armies are attacking so yea

Anyway back to the point of this thread. Fighting against the Seleucids with their generals and phalanxes make for amazingly hard battles. Each family member tends to have between 60 and 100 body guards and, thanks to their amazingly high defense and legit attack, are nearly invincible. In one battle from last night, I surrounded one of these units with 2 medium armenian cav, each with 2 chevrons of exp, and my own general, 4 chevrons. Each medium was at full strength with my general at 48 guys. The seleucid family member slaughtered both units of mediums down about 3 men wherein they routed, and brought my own general down to 12 men. When the first medium routed, I sent in 3 units of spearmen to attack the general. He routed one of these as well before he was overwhelmed. This general had 1 chevron of exp, had to have been hit by negative morale traits because he'd been chasing my guys between towns to stop me from invading, and was completely surrounded. My own men were confident troops and all of that.

The same goes for the Seleucid Phalanxes. The Pez... whatever and the Ag... whatever are just about invincible. I usually have a panzy unit of spearmen distract their front while I'll pelt the phalanx with slingers or archers from behind. This works for other factions but against the seleucids... The Pez will probably lose about 60 men from 3 units of slingers using their entire stock and the Ag lose like one or two per volley, if Im lucky. Even getting smashed into from behind with my heavy cavalry barely hurts these guys.

One last thing i noticed, cataphract archers for the armenians have a worse attack than medium cavalry. I dont know if this was meant to show that they were slowed because of their armor but their attack is a 3, medium starts at 6 I believe. I just thought they should be a little more intimidating once they were in the fray instead of having to rely on them charging in and out. I know this is the point, the charge bonus for the cats, but even so.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What difficulty are you playing on?

[soibean]

campaign is VH battles are M

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

campaign is VH battles are MWe'll see what's up.

[Tuuvi]

I agree the seulicids are very strong. I am playing as Pontos and I had their general surrounded with tindonotae(sp?) and some other units...my guys were being slaughtered, so I sent in some Curepos (which have no charge bonus BTW) and that still wasn't enough...I did manage to kill the unit, but by then my units had taken too many casualties and had low morale, they all routed and I lost.

[Moros]

Here some tips to play as hayadan against Seleukids:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74826

[Kugutsu]

Two words: Horse archers. Get lots of them and get some round the sides and back. They do lots more damage shooting the unshielded sides of phalanxes. Then when you are out of ammo (it helps if you have already destroyed their cavalry or lured it away from the fight) charge in. The morale tends to be lowered, and they rout quite easily. If they dont, withraw and then charge again. As for killing generals, I just overwhelm them with arrows. I try to avoid fighting them in a fair fight, as they will win! The key to Hayasdan has to be their mobility and range. Treat the cataphract archers as normal horse archers, with the bonus that they can charge and do some serious damage (ie when you are ready to rout the enemy) and you should prevail...
Wait till the Seleukids start throwing Kataphracts at you - they are so well armoured that arrows have very little effect. It makes taking down generals look easy!

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Generals are somewhat over powered in some cases. I once sent three lower end phalanxes and some skirmishers against a single general (120 guys) in a city. I got him to charge with the skirmishers then lead him to my unflankable phalanxes. He routed two and depleted the third, by the time I quit... I don't recall what his experience was though, that may have been the killer factor in my case.

[tk-421]

so I sent in some Curepos (which have no charge bonus BTW)

Curepos have a charge bonus of 28. It's for their secondary weapon (underhand spear), though, so it is not displayed in the in-game information screens and things.

[tk-421]

One last thing i noticed, cataphract archers for the armenians have a worse attack than medium cavalry. I dont know if this was meant to show that they were slowed because of their armor but their attack is a 3, medium starts at 6 I believe. I just thought they should be a little more intimidating once they were in the fray instead of having to rely on them charging in and out. I know this is the point, the charge bonus for the cats, but even so.

This is not a mistake. Cataphracts do have a lower attack factor, but they have a much higher charge bonus and higher lethality. If you have cataphracts stuck in melee, it may be best to switch to their secondary weapons (its either a mace or sword, can't remember). As for the "Cataphract Archers" (Zrahakir Netadzik?), it might be best not to charge them until the enemy is fairly weakened.

[FoxFreeze]

I have to agree that the Seleucids are quite overpowered in some regards. But I have to say my most frustrating moment was when I was playing Bactria. I had captured a town from the Seleucids fairly easily, and they sent a general with a smaller stack to besiege me. The guy is a 1 star general with perhaps 1 chevron, not faction leader or heir. This man was incredible. Now, after a fairly lengthy engagement, we had both whittled down our units. He had phalanxes and skirmishers, plus one group of archers. I had a crap ton of slingers and archer-spearmen, 1 phalanx, my general, 1 full group of mercenary heavy calv, and about 4 groups of the hellenic native spearmen. Plus 1 group of skirmishers. The man brough out his general unit, quite full, and rushed into me. Not only did I lay my 4 spearmen into him, I took my heavy calv and my general into the fray. I do not exaggerate, 10 minutes or so pass and I finally have this down to only the general. 5-10 more minutes pass and this general, the single man left in his unit, routes the entire force engaging him. It was ridiculous that he lived for that long, surrounded by spearmen and heavy calvalry plus my generals troops. He killed so many. Luckily, I was able to regroup and work myself behind his forces. They routed, but the general still survived.

This guy had to have some crazy hitpoint bonuses or something, that was just silly.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Post a pic of this guy's traits/character card. It'd be interesting to see. :grin:

[tk-421]

I actually had a similar problem with Pyrrhos. It wasn't so much that the bodyguards are overpowered as the general just wouldn't die. At one point I had him completely surrounded by Eqvites Consvlares and half a Hastati unit, but he managed to wade through the fighting and escape. He had eight command stars. He died in a siege of Ambrakia a few turns later so I can't post a screenshot of his traits.

[abou]

I had the same problem, except I was playing as Epeiros fighting against the Romans.

[keravnos]

I believe the generals SHOULD be hard to kill.

Armenian kataprhakts though, that's another story entirely.

[Kugutsu]

I just fought a battle against 4 seleukid generals. All I had were 4 under strength kataphract archers and my own 2 generals, perhaps 20 men in each unit all averaged out. Their generals all had between 35-40 men. I brought their lead general down to 15 men with arrows, then sent two of the generals off on a wild goose chase round the map. I then mobbed the main general with all my troops and quickly got it down to just him. He fought for ages, totally surrounded, then routed. He managed to escape from the middle of my army, and got away. I did manage to kill the remaining generals by leading them round til they were exhausted then charging them to death. Very frustrating that the chief survived though. My assassins cant touch him either...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I actually had a similar problem with Pyrrhos. It wasn't so much that the bodyguards are overpowered as the general just wouldn't die. At one point I had him completely surrounded by Eqvites Consvlares and half a Hastati unit, but he managed to wade through the fighting and escape. He had eight command stars. He died in a siege of Ambrakia a few turns later so I can't post a screenshot of his traits.You're all taking the wrong approach. After most of his BG are killed, retreat your troops and put some slingers on his back. He and the rest of his BG will last 30 sec at the most...

[geala]

I am playing as the Ptolemaioi and my only real foe atm is Arche Seleukia. The generals are tough cookies but one or two volleys with glandes or maybe javelins are good medicine against them. I discovered this a few days ago by coincidence. A lonely general managed to escape my Gallic mercenaries and rode away, laughing. He came near a group of slingers with autoshot on and was thrown from his horse with the first volley. I was very surprised. If you have no slingers or javelin troops and no hard hitting elite unit nearby the general mostly manages to flee. Doesn't matter.

Pezhetairoi e.a. are not too tough, no need to change. Bind them from the front and attack repeatedly from behind, than they will rout. Remove the cavalry at the moment they hit the phalangists, withdraw and attack again. Heavy infantry from behind is also good.

I like EB, did I mention that before?

[soibean]

Ive found that the missiles arent very effective against the more heavily armored guys though, I had a unit of pez pinned by two cheap spearmen and had to HAs firing into its back... killed maybe 1/5 of them before I can out of ammo.
I was thinking that slingers should receive a bonus against armored units since getting smashed by a rock could dent the armor into your body couldn't it? Same kind of effect as getting smashed by a mace or am I thinking incorrectly about its effect?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ive found that the missiles arent very effective against the more heavily armored guys though, I had a unit of pez pinned by two cheap spearmen and had to HAs firing into its back... killed maybe 1/5 of them before I can out of ammo.
I was thinking that slingers should receive a bonus against armored units since getting smashed by a rock could dent the armor into your body couldn't it? Same kind of effect as getting smashed by a mace or am I thinking incorrectly about its effect?Most of them already have the armour piercing modifier.

[soibean]

alright I didnt think they did but thanks

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well, perhaps it is not the actual enemy that is tough, but rather the exploits that make phalangites such a cheap enemy: Flanking with cavalry obviously does much more damage than the suicidal front charge, but once the phalanx begins to wheel with their pikes, I just want to scream at the monitor in pure rage. It would be far better if they just immidietly dropped their pikes and switched to secondary, because still they wouldn't stand like vegetables, but I hate it when their pikes just clip through. It's stupid.

Here's an even more fantastic story. Playing as Parthia in RTR is cheap. Especially with a ten star faction leader with a shitload of cataphracts. Ah yes, the glories of my Mardonius... "The Conqueror". I could slaughter amries of 3000 men with him and his bodyguards alone. See? That's cheap. You know what's almost as cheap? To "Carrhae" your enemy. With factions like Hayasdan and Pahlava, you can "Carrhae" your enemy. It simply means, bring a load of horse archers and a few, but headstrong cavalry. It's a perfect strategy once you master it. In RTR it's the cheapest strategy, because even the horse archers could act as pretty effective medium cavalry once their ammunition was depleted. In EB, playing as a cavalry-based faction, the Carrhae tactic will work wonders. Against phalangites Pezhetairoi class and up, you are going to have some problems unless you know where and when to attack.

[Kugutsu]

Um, wasnt that exactly what those factions did? The whole way they fought was by shooting people from horseback and only closing when the morale was so low that a charge would send the enemy into a rout.
I have to say that in my Hayasdan campaign, even with cheap tactics, I am barely holding my own against the Seleukids. They are churning out so many troops, and high quality too, that it is bankrupting me keeping enough armies to repel them all. I am hoping that once I cut their empire in two by capturing Susa, they will weaken a bit. Problem is, Im taking them on with minimal help. Pontos is allied to them, and Bactria is too busy trying to eliminate Parthia and Saka. The Saba who are my allies are being creamed in Arabia by the Seleukids, and the Ptolies (also my allies) are fighting a running battle for Antioch which never seems to be resolved.

Im with you on the pike issue. It annoys me when you have pinned a phalanx and charge some cavalry into their rear, only for them to flip their pikes and start slaughtering both your units. Grrr

[Sdragon]

Companion body guard aren't too bad if you use a reasonable pike unit and have a load of other stuff to hit them in the back with. Parthian late bodyguard are the killer, fought a battle with two units of them. With a little experience they have a defence rating of 40! Full unit of pike men fighting in a town who couldn't be out flanked were reduced to 14 guys, and only because I had another unit behind that lost 100 men, and only because I hit the enemy in the back with elite spear men and silver shields. It took so long for them to die, never have the battle timer on, you'll never make it. Thankfully they have crappy attack though, gives you plenty of time to manoeuvre around them, they will probably be easier to handle in open terrain Also note that they aren't very late, the only generals that don't have them are the 1st generation ones. I'd hate to face a unit of over 100.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Indeed, the Grivpanvar/Hye Sparapet are killer cavalry, even in the hands of an idiot. Well, the AI goes beyond idiot due to quirky handling with cavalry, when auto-resolving battles, yet in the hands of a human player these cataphracts are virtually unstoppable once upgraded and properly experienced. The Grivpanvar in particular are truly deadly and are in favourable conditions easily able to defeat even Spartans with relative ease, one on one, in spite of significantly difference in troop ratio (Sahigan Pahr/Grivpanvar only consist of 20 cavalrymen, while Spartans are 60?). Only two units of Grivpanvar will be needed to get the job done against any Hellenic infantry army. Guaranteed. Mastering the art of dual flanking is a must. Emphasize the effectiveness of this tactic, but complementing the basic "Carrhae"-configuration with this only pumps more juice. When a mod gets as tough as EB, and believe me, you can't go tougher than this, exploiting the AI is sometimes bliss :laugh4:

[soibean]

Um, wasnt that exactly what those factions did? The whole way they fought was by shooting people from horseback and only closing when the morale was so low that a charge would send the enemy into a rout.
I have to say that in my Hayasdan campaign, even with cheap tactics, I am barely holding my own against the Seleukids. They are churning out so many troops, and high quality too, that it is bankrupting me keeping enough armies to repel them all. I am hoping that once I cut their empire in two by capturing Susa, they will weaken a bit. Problem is, Im taking them on with minimal help. Pontos is allied to them, and Bactria is too busy trying to eliminate Parthia and Saka. The Saba who are my allies are being creamed in Arabia by the Seleukids, and the Ptolies (also my allies) are fighting a running battle for Antioch which never seems to be resolved.

Im with you on the pike issue. It annoys me when you have pinned a phalanx and charge some cavalry into their rear, only for them to flip their pikes and start slaughtering both your units. Grrr

trust me, capturing susa does nothing to slow them down. Ive taken Edessa, Susa, Seleukia, and two other smaller provinces of theirs after about 30 years of battle and every other turn Im still besieged by a full stack of Pez led by a 100 man 3 star general that appears from nowhere.

[Vorian]

I recently started playing Hayasdan...I followed a somewhat wierd strategy. I immediatley went after Trapezius and the other rebel city in the mountains and exterminated populace (for cash). This however didn't allow me to avoid be in debt in a few rounds. What I did however is recruit horse archers with every oportunity. Then when the treacherous Seleucids attacked me without reason. i repelled the first small armies and started a campaign deep in their territory. Strategy? Simple

With three units of horse-archers and two generals I shacked two cities adding money in my coffers. With those few money built mines in my capital. Note I recruited mercenaries to use the ram.
Then I destroyed every building in those cities and moved forward. This, as I noticed removing the fow made the Seleucs to call back numerous armies that were approaching my terriroty.

Using now guerilla-type warfare and attacking small stacks of helpless pantodapoi and phalanxes combined with ambushes in the mountain passes in my provinces, I managed to cause much havoc I might say :yes:

Then with my highly mobile calavry raiding army I approached Seleuceia which (lucky me) was not very well guarded. I hired a phalanx unit and took the city, making my king a very wealthy man and adding 22500 to my coffers(and about as many poor souls in Hades).:2thumbsup: Then I destroyed the city and left. But before I moved far away. A small stack of archers retook the city and enslaved it. So i returned and took it back exterminating again those poor inhabitants. I am afraid that the once-mighty Seleucid city has now a population of 2470 :skull: Those money allowed me to build much needed mines in my cities and other money-making buildings. Now i plan to do the same to Susa and Ekbatana on my return home. I wonder if this stops the Seleucids a little.
PS: I tried to give those cities to the Ptolemies so the Seleucs didn't take them back but they refused. Damn sissies.