kensai

[hach]

sorry guys.

just have to say that i think this kensai guys the biggest load of @~?> i've heard about in the new add on.

i'm a great fan of yojimbo and sanjuro and i know that a good swordman can whip ass'but we are talking maybe 5-10 guys at a time not 60-120.

the kensai would have been better on the strategic map as a trainer of troops and increasing their honour and should not be on
the battlefield.

and as good as he is with a sword when 60 guys starting shooting arrows at him from long range'i think he would be in deep *&^% and should'nt be able to get near these guys'but no doubt his ben kenobi forcefield will protect him till he gets within sword range.

and another point.

you get set the game size units to between 60-120 guys'but not matter what unit sizes you are playing with'you will still only kensai per unit.so you can effectively double the amount of guys'that one single kensai has to face in a 1 unit vs 1 unit battle.
so he's got a tough job vs 60 guys'but lets make him take on 120 guys!!!

so my opinion the kensai is bollocks'but would have been good on the strategic map'not the battle maps.

hach

also another point.

[hach]

forget the last bit.
typo error.
there is'nt another point

hach

[solypsist]

actually, according to various beta tests etc., the kensai isn't as kick ass as you might think. how he got elevated to this "superman" status is really a wonder to me. i think it has to do with the fact that one guy takes up a "spot" usually allocated to 60-120 guys. it might be worthwhile to consider the effect having your daimyo on the battlefield has; it's just 11 guys who, as we all know, can't hack down "guys 60-120 at a time." although they do a decent amount of damage to missile units, it's pretty tough for a daimyo bodyguard to take down a full unit on its own, and usually they do so only because the unit being attacked suffers from morale penalties and runs away. think of the kensai in this regard; if you march your kensai straight into a wall of enemy spears, you'll soon decide all this noise was about wrong assumptions.

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Gregoshi]

hach,

That was some typo - who'd have though an errant keystroke would pop out a whole paragraph. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm withholding judgement on the Kensai until we see the practical application of the unit. It is vulnerable to cavalry and missile fire. It may just be super powerful in the right situation, i.e. when it has other units supporting it or restricted terrain such as a bridge or castle gate.

Think about the YC - it makes mincemeat out of ANY unit it is running down due to a rout, but it wouldn't dare attack a formation of YA or YS that isn't running.

Let's wait and see.

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[Hosakawa Tito]

I have to agree with soly,according to the recent interviews posted on the main totalwar site.The kensai will be vulnerable to missle attack and cavalry.Without support from other units he will be dead meat,though in certain situations he will sell his life dearly.We will just have to wait and see,but I get the feeling that the kensai will be more useful in the campaign game than in the multiplayer battles as they are fought now.
Tito

[Slyspy]

They seem unlikely, but I'll wait to see how they play before passing judgement.


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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Shiro]

We'll just have to wait. *sigh...*

[Nelson]

I'm no kensai fan either. I especially don't like the fact that he will depicted as an overgrown Goliath character. A unique sashimono would be fine if he needs to stand out.

Still, IF he doesn't look really stupid, I'll use him. He might make a good bodyguard to help defend the taisho/daimyo from battlefield ninja.

[FwSeal]

One aspect of the kensai that I like (perhaps the only aspect) is that it provides scenario builders with a neat element to add to battles set in early Japan - that is, lone warriors to send out to duel. Wouldn't have much effect on the battle, I suppose, but it would be a nice touch, especially in a 1v1 multiplayer setting - perhaps some roleplaying, if nothing else.
In a way, we've already had kensai before - aka the 'super daimyo'. Just the other day I found myself about to take down Takeda Shingen (having earlier killed off Nobutora), and had to watch as for almost three minutes a 60-man YS flailed about trying to kill the last man in his headquarters unit...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Kensai did have the potential to wreck the game's balance, not to mention its realism, when we first heard about them. But I tried to hope that they would not be as powerful as the hype claimed, and, based on the latest info we've got (from QT3 etc.), I'm still optimistic. If Soly-sama's beta (are you allowed to reveal these things about it?) has the same Kensai as the final release, it will be as I hoped it would.

Of course, the "Larger Than Life" effect could be a bit annoying, but try to think of it as a useability issue, not a realism issue. It's just graphics.

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"Yea, the proud ones are but for a moment, like an evening dream in springtime. The mighty are destroyed at the last, they are but as the dust before the wind."
- The Heike Monogatari

[hach]

on reflection after these posts then i can see some use for the kensai.

as mentioned holding a castle gate'or a bridge'but never'never'never in a plain old green valley battle.so make sure you have kensai's in river province and important castle ones.and make sure you use the enemy arrows up first with crap units at the bridge or gates before you send the kensai in.

[edRonin]

Soly you lucky dog. You get to play with the Beta. I am a little surprised that you are allowed to tell us anything about it. If you can talk give us your impression about everything. I'd particularly like to know about the Mongol cav.

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All your base are belong to us

[Vanya]

I have some new info on the Kensai!

It seems these warriors were Sohei-wannabes, and even took their corrupted version of Buddhism a tad to far by thinking they were the reincarnation of the Buddha proper. This was the rationalization given to their tendency to balloon in size by pigging out on chicken legs and sake.

But the descendants of the Kensai have given us a much better means of entertainment: sumo wrestling. Heck, thats what the Kensai of Japan really were: the forefathers of Sumo!

And THAT, my friends, is why the Kensai unit is drawn larger than life in the game. I bet he will even wear those funny little straps, and fight like a sumo wrestler in the game -- kneel, stare and charge like a bull!

Woohoo!

[hach]

have you seen the new movie from the add on with swordsman and ninja.

you can see the kensai there.
he is not in sumo gear'but is taller than the rest. (^_^)

hach

[solypsist]

the larger than life aspect is, so they say, for easier identification in the heat of battle. imagine trying to click on a single guy (you could always click on his banner at at the bottom) or see where he's at, anyway, in the middle of battle. sometimes it's hard enough with a small unit.

[Tenchimuyo]

He must have ate a lot of spinach http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[edRonin]

Quote Originally posted by Tenchimuyo:
He must have ate a lot of spinach http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[/QUOTE]


I'm Popeye the Kensai man, toot! toot!


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All your base are belong to us

[CaPeFeAr]

I was thinking about the possibility of using him as a second line of attack. once the main line has engaged his "super" abilites might be able to puch a hole through the line causing an autorout. also..i would think that if a lone kensai walks out of the trees and findes a unit of lets say wm to far from his buddys...chop chop chop...wm's go a running. my biggest question is how fast is he? i believe that and the question of his moral will ultimatly decide how "super" he is.

lol...is anyone looking foward to seeing the 16 unit kensai rush? Im sure someone will try http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[solypsist]

Quote lol...is anyone looking foward to seeing the 16 unit kensai rush? Im sure someone will try [/QUOTE]

You mean like this?
http://solypsist.homestead.com/files/bat20.jpg

cheers.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 03-23-2001).]

[CaPeFeAr]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif im shaking...im not sure which scares me more, the trail of dead bodies or the fact that the kill meter is all green http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[BakaGaijin]

Or could it be Soly's history of photo editing that frightens you so? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[hach]

on capefears post about the kensai vs the warrior monks.

would that work?

i thought he was good against units like ashigaru or maybe yari samurai'but may bite off more than he can chew versus wm or no-dachi'unless maybe guarding a chokepoint.

hach

[edRonin]

Note that all the Kensai in that screenshot are H9. I'm willing to bet an H9 Kensai is invincible to anything but missiles. Soly do you have the attack, defence, speed and armor ratings for your beta Kensai?

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All your base are belong to us

[CaPeFeAr]

as to the reason i said that about wm i believe it is a question of moral. if the wm was alone it would not fight until the last man but instead rout after a sufficient amount of flag bearing soldiers died. if it were, lets say 3 kensai vs 3 monks i think the kensai would lose. BTW i was thinking that by haveing only 1 person in the unit, ea must have almost totaly gotten rid of the flanking and attack from behind penelties in order for the sword saint to be at all effective. As for missle fire working against the kensai...dont hold your breath. as it is now, your general (not his unit) is extreemly hard to kill with misslefire although i have seen it done. im sure this new super unit will have kevlar body armour for the bullets and steal plate for the arrows. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yep I think the Kensai went north over those hills according to the body trail LOL.Great screenshot soly!
Tito

[Choco]

I have the simplest solution for any problem arising with an overpowered Kensai:

I will never accept playing a game with somebody who doesn't agree to play without Kensai. Simple rule: "no kensai Allowed".

What makes Shogun such a great game is the sense of sheer magnitud in the numbers involved. Where you have the real feeling of managing a whole army, with thousand of soldiers in the battlefield. I mean that is the real thing.

The idea of a single unit so powerful like the kensai goes against that "magnitud" enviroment that STW has.

Where is the realism and the "real thing" feeling when you can send 10 Kensai to smash a whole army?

I hope the kensai won't be so umbalanced as it seems. If not, simple solution: I won't play with ppl sticking to kensais to build an army of rambos.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I think you got another one soly LOL
Tito

[henryh]

How large is that body count. It looks between 100 and 200, if that is the case then these sword masters are of similiar stature to the likes of El Cid, Rock hard and but very rare. Perhaps there should be some scarcity restriction in the game 1 swordsman hero every decade perhaps? Or perhaps 1 kensai produced as a result of training a large number of swordsman, or perhaps 1 kensai produced when you have 9 honour individual no-dachi warrior (v.rare check the logfiles to see what I mean) which means that individual would have to have killed hundreds of men in combat prior to his ascension.( which probably makes it rather impossible too given the amount of fights possible in a campaign game) Something along these lines would be better than paying 1000 or so koku wait a few seasons and lo and behold we have a battlefield geisha

[Yoshitsune]

I personally don't have a problem with a FEW, expensive 'lone warrior' types appearing in a battle. As FwSeal says, this could add some interesting possibilities for early samurai duels. But, instead of the kensai, I wish it was a lone horse-archer hero with enhanced archery skills (range and accuracy). This unit is intended for the Mongol Invasion campaign after all - and this is still firmly in the 'Way of Horse and Bow' period rather than the era of flashing katanas.