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Lemur
12-19-2006, 15:34
Follow up to a thread I posted earlier, where a blogger compared events in the Middle East to the 30 Years War. That same blogger has gone and crafted a more formal essay (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2508062,00.html) on the subject, reprinted below the spoil tag. I still think he makes a compelling argument, but as always I'm eager to hear Orgah opinions.

The Sunday Times, December 17, 2006

The thirty years' war brewing in the Middle East

Americans, by and large, are unfamiliar with much of history. Their passion is the future, not the past; and their focus is understandably on their own vast and varied continent, not on the minute details of distant foreign lands. The new chairman of the House intelligence committee cannot tell the difference between Sunni and Shi’ite, and his predecessor was not much better. And I’d wager that no one in the US Congress was forced in school, as I sadly was, to study Europe’s thirty years’ war. But they’d better start, because it may be already upon them. Not in Europe this time, but in the Middle East.

The thirty years’ war in Europe formally broke out in 1618 and didn’t end till 1648. It consumed every major power and its battleground was predominantly the varied and divided melange of states and principalities that make up what is now called Germany. Its deepest dividing lines were religious, or, rather sectarian. Lutherans battled Catholics, and then Calvinists added to the toxic religious brew.

Major Catholic and Protestant powers intervened to keep the conflict constantly evolving, in ways guaranteed to confuse every schoolkid trying to figure it out. I remember a brief couple of days in the third form when I thought I understood it. And then it eluded my grasp again. It all ended with the famous Treaty of Westphalia, which cemented a new power structure in Europe.

This was less than four centuries ago. It occurred at a time of religious ferment, when nation-states were weak and the distant empire, Spain, was slowly declining over the horizon. It centred on a region that had never truly been unified as a state. Its effects were devastating.

Historians now doubt that a third of the German population died, but up to a fifth did — not just from conflict, but from the diseases that spread with armies and disruption. This was the era from which the German folk tales of the Brothers Grimm emerged. Massive depopulation allowed wolves to make a comeback, and they stalked abandoned villages and towns for human prey.

Is this now the future for the Middle East? Iraq, like 17th-century Germany, has never been a viable independent nation-state. It was always part of various empires, run by Persians or Greeks or Turks — and then the British. It was always divided, even under the Ottomans, into three provinces centred on Baghdad, Mosul and Basra. And it has long been divided ethnically between Arabs, Kurds, Assyrians, Marsh Arabs and others and on sectarian lines between Sunni and Shi’ite.

To make sectarian tensions even worse, it was also home to sacred Shi’ite sites in regimes long dominated by Sunnis. Churchill once described governing the place as being perched on the edge of an “ungrateful volcano”. Saddam’s brutal rule and his genocidal attacks on the Shi’ites and Kurds only added to the heat of the lava below.

It’s now clear that the US invasion in 2003 took the last lid off the volcanic crater: Saddam Hussein. Worse, America disbanded the only trained force capable of restraining it — the Ba’athist military — and refused to provide enough US troops to maintain order. Al-Qaeda shrewdly saw the potential for chaos and tried desperately to foment a sectarian war.

In retrospect, it is amazing how restrained the Shi’ites were for so long. They had been massacred and brutalised for decades, but, under the guidance of the spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, they did not seek revenge for two years, despite constant attacks from a largely Sunni insurgency. But as the US dithered, as chaos mounted, and as self-defence through sectarian militias became the only way to stay alive, the divisions deepened.

The Sunni attack on the Shi’ite Samarra mosque earlier this year was the tipping point. From then on, a civil war grew and metastasised. And the forces of cohesion collapsed. Sistani is no longer the Shi’ite saviour. The street thug Moqtada al-Sadr is. The divisions are so deep, no national army is now possible, and the logic of sectarian violence and revenge, as in 17th-century Germany, is irresistible.

The pull of external powers is also unstoppable. Shi’ite Iran has long been involved in the Shi’ite sector of Iraq, financing the militias, funding the politicians, co-opting vast areas of the country. And quiet funding for the Sunni resistance has come from Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

And so, just as in the 1620s, the combination of national interest and sectarian vision has begun to create the real possibility of a wider war. The Saudis warned Washington last week that they would begin serious funding of Sunni terrorism if Iraq’s Shi’ites seemed poised to wipe out Iraq’s Sunni minority.

If a full-scale Shi’ite-Sunni war breaks out across the Middle East, then Lebanon will also be drawn in, and its fledgling democracy reduced to another war zone. All of this can be financed by oil revenues. You could have the world’s most profitable energy source financing one of the world’s deepest religious divides.

It gets worse. Assume this is the modern Muslim equivalent of the religious wars that beset Europe four centuries ago. Now give those religious fanatics access to chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons. That’s what we now face.

The choice being discussed in Washington is whether America can still construct a viable, national coalition in Iraq and train enough Iraqi soldiers to return the volcano to dormancy. The odds, at this point, are probably remote. We may even end up training the very sectarian death squads we are trying to restrain. And the American people are not willing or able to send the forces necessary to control it themselves. At the end of the first world war, the British had 410,000 troops in Iraq to control a population a fraction of its current size. America has 140,000 and has signalled it is about to remove the rest. This is not a recipe for success. It’s a recipe for catastrophe.

The question, therefore, is simply whether the United States wants to have tens of thousands of young Americans in the midst of such a war, forced to take sides, and every time they do so, making even more enemies across the Muslim world. The answer is almost certainly no.

The war is already under way, and the feckless American president has little chance to arrest or even guide it. We do not know how profound the destruction might get and how far the forces of chaos could spread. One thing we do know: oil prices could experience extreme instability. The world economy could be battered.

Hence the deep gloom in Washington — and the grim decision to make one last, and probably fruitless, attempt to stop it. No one sees a way out — except through. Some argue that maybe the Muslim Arabs, like the Christian Europeans before them, need to witness first-hand the consequences of religious warfare in order to let go of theocracy’s promise and enter the modern secular world. But that is scant comfort in the face of the anarchy and warfare that now seem all but impossible to arrest.

So have a happy Christmas. The new year doesn’t look too promising.

Pindar
12-19-2006, 17:57
Lemur,

What is it in the analogy that you see as a compelling argument?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-19-2006, 18:16
I don't really see it either. A lot of the Thirty years war was stirred by other powers trying to grab bits, it seems more internal and inherent in the religion in Iraq. There is a parralel though, the Middle East needs to go through a god-awful bloody war in oder to sort out the mess its in.

KukriKhan
12-19-2006, 18:21
The similarities are startling. Too bad the prognosis is all gloom-and-doom (basically, as I read it: "You've got 25+ more years to get through, first."), or I'd pay for Mr. Sullivan's plane ticket to D.C. myself.

If the only way out of (OK, through) Bill and Ted's George and Dick's Excellent Adventure is a "surge", then roll credits - leaving the place a worse seething cauldron than when we moved in - then they're just leaving it to the next President & Co to solve; a situation worse than "cut 'n run", IMO.

macsen rufus
12-19-2006, 18:24
I think he makes a pretty good case for the parallels, certainly agree with his analysis of Iraq as a country. I don't believe it is a nation, it is a fiction, held together only by successive waves of repression and occupation. Toppling Saddam was arguably "unplugging the volcano", but as with all these things the pressure will blow sooner or later and sometimes the tighter the bung, the bigger the bang when it goes. Things probably would have been better if it had blown apart sooner rather than later.

To be completely Machiavellian about it, I would say that if the Islamic world starts tearing itself apart in sectarian war, then maybe the external enemy - the West - will be forgotten. After all there's no enemy like a close enemy. Even extremists get tired of bloodshed eventually. This is not a cause for optimism - I agree that it's probably too late for a way out. The only way out is through.

He also raises a serious point about what might happen to oil prices and supply - in our very oil-addicted societies we could find dramatic knock-on effects. Even if we pull out militarily, we can't stand far enough back to be unaffected.

It remains to be seen whether secularism emerges as the dominant force in the Middle East, but it would certainly help.

Lemur
12-19-2006, 19:53
What is it in the analogy that you see as a compelling argument?
Hi Pindar,

Four elements stand out, namely:

Religious sects in conflict, all bearing the assumption that killing is a valid form or religious argument;
A nation that isn't much of a nation and never has been;
Surrounding powers who would love to play out their national and religious conflicts in somebody else's backyard;
And at least four local powers who would love to either use the conflict to beef up their stature, or who will be "forced" to engage lest another power become dominant.

It's certainly a closer historical analogy than Vietnam, World War 2, or any of the other conflicts in which the U.S. has been involved in the last century.

Admittedly, this all adds up to despair for Sullivan, but that's not what intrigues me. Anything that helps me understand what is actually going on is valued; I will draw my own conclusions.

lars573
12-19-2006, 20:20
Lemur,

What is it in the analogy that you see as a compelling argument?
The analogy is good. He's worried about the concequences of a 30 years war eque conflict happening in the middle east. Because keeping with the analogy the US is Spain. That is the superpower at the time the conflict begins. The 30 years war broke Spain as a military/economic power. It sent them on the long decline to what they became by 1900. The conflict also made France the new superpower. So if the US is Spain who is France? China? India? The EU? :inquisitive:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-19-2006, 20:57
Probably Russia, again. :inquisitive:

I think that on the up side what comes out of such a war might be worth it in the long run. Especially if it means real countries and real stability in teh Middle East.

BDC
12-19-2006, 21:12
Probably Russia, again. :inquisitive:

I think that on the up side what comes out of such a war might be worth it in the long run. Especially if it means real countries and real stability in teh Middle East.
Russia will be out of oil in 30 years time, and completely screwed again.

My money is on the EU, assuming it pulls the finger out. Which probably won't happen.

GoreBag
12-19-2006, 22:28
Nah...the EU is plain silly. China seems more likely.

Watchman
12-19-2006, 22:31
China just might get itself burned messing with the 'Stans and/or implode thanks to too large a disparity between Problems Solved and Problems Shelved though.

BDC
12-19-2006, 22:54
China just might get itself burned messing with the 'Stans and/or implode thanks to too large a disparity between Problems Solved and Problems Shelved though.
Yes, and a waiting population time bomb.

India isn't exactly low on issues either.

Watchman
12-19-2006, 22:57
Around the worst that can happen to the EU is breaking up and the former members reetaining the structures they found useful and profitable in the usual manner of healthy national self-interest...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-20-2006, 01:41
Oh, I don't know. We could go to war with France again.

I tell you one thing though, if there's a Third World War I'd side with Germany this time, it'll be quicker that way.

Seriously though: A problem the Middle East has is that is went through the "Classical phase" with the early Caliphate, then the "Roman" phase with the Ottomans. It has yet to actually get through the "Mediaeval phase" where actually nation-states are formed. At this point I think it's time West and East stepped back and let them have some turmoil. Whatever emerges has to be better than what's there now.

Either that or actually go in and take over.

No more tip-toeing, though.

Pindar
12-20-2006, 02:15
Hi Pindar,

Four elements stand out, namely:

Religious sects in conflict, all bearing the assumption that killing is a valid form or religious argument;
A nation that isn't much of a nation and never has been;
Surrounding powers who would love to play out their national and religious conflicts in somebody else's backyard;
And at least four local powers who would love to either use the conflict to beef up their stature, or who will be "forced" to engage lest another power become dominant.

It's certainly a closer historical analogy than Vietnam, World War 2, or any of the other conflicts in which the U.S. has been involved in the last century.

Admittedly, this all adds up to despair for Sullivan, but that's not what intrigues me. Anything that helps me understand what is actually going on is valued; I will draw my own conclusions.

Hi Lemur,

I see. If one accepts the analogy then what is the conclusion? Typically the value of drawing analogies is to draw conclusions. What do you take the argument's conclusion(s) to be?

Watchman
12-20-2006, 02:34
"Handle With Care" ? :balloon2:

Lemur
12-20-2006, 05:40
I see. If one accepts the analogy then what is the conclusion? Typically the value of drawing analogies is to draw conclusions. What do you take the argument's conclusion(s) to be?
Am I required to make an argument and draw conclusions? Do I gotta? For me it is enough to find a resonant analogy. Since I am not in a position to command troops or shape policy, it's enough to examine the analogy, inspect it from different angles, and allow conclusions to come when they come.

I remember you mentioning somewhere that you're a speculative poet. Surely, given that background, you can appreciate the intrinsic value of a meaningful comparison.

Yun Dog
12-20-2006, 06:35
I like the comparison - although the world itself is a very different / smaller place now.

cut n run ?

step back?

where you going to step back to?

Anything that happens in any part of the world now affects all the other parts

basically alot of the worlds problems today stem from the arbitrary proportioning of the world by colonial powers - based on geographic rather than cultural grounds - Africa? Probably because the colonial powers didnt consider the people of these regions as being human beings let alone having cultures. I have this side of the river and you can have that one.

I dont think these problems will resolve themselves - or burn themselves out - like they did in the days of the 30 years war - because everyone seems to need to meddle in everything that happens on the planet now - ergo what are americans doing in the middle east in the first place - everyone told them it was going to end badly. Vietnam groundhog day - but they were able to cut n run from Vietnam - leaving to place to drown in its own blood - but this one will be coming home with them. Bush knows this - he can count the days till someone gets a hold of some mini nukes - defeats the homeland security and boom. Its impossible to keep them out, short of closing the borders.

How many terrorists has this mess created - how many people have lost loved ones needlessly and now have nothing left to lose

the difference between this and the 30 year war is that in the 1600s - you could fly to spain in an hour and wipe out Madrid

no this is new world and this is a thing all of its own - we havent seen the ramifications of this before

KukriKhan
12-20-2006, 06:45
Assuming the general, non-killer Iraqi population, and the current Iraq government, all want to live, work, and move about in a place where the level of violence is manageable by local law enforcement - in other words, not an imminent, daily threat to everyone, the US's mission is to either provide that, or assist in providing that.

Internal US realpolitik seems to indicate (by its bi-election results) that that job should be finished no later than late 2008.

I can appreciate that the 30-years war provides an interesting parallel in the layers of complexity involved - the sectarianism, tribalism, outside agitators, and so on. I'm on-board with 'US = Spain'. What can Spain's experience in t-y-w, successes and failures, teach the US viz a vis Iraq?

Watchman
12-20-2006, 11:38
One does remember that Spain was for most intents and purposes knocked out of the TYW by a very bloody defeat at the hands of the French though. ~;p And was still busy with the seemingly eternal war with the Dutch rebels AFAIK. Plus everyone who had an ocean-going ship was nibbling at its treasure fleets.

Let's not go too far with drawing parallels, shall we ?

Pindar
12-20-2006, 18:37
Am I required to make an argument and draw conclusions? Do I gotta? For me it is enough to find a resonant analogy. Since I am not in a position to command troops or shape policy, it's enough to examine the analogy, inspect it from different angles, and allow conclusions to come when they come.

No, You don't gotta. I simply thought since you wrote you found the analogy a compelling argument that that included conclusions.


I remember you mentioning somewhere that you're a speculative poet.

Insofar as my name is Pindar.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-21-2006, 00:25
I'd just like to take a moment to defend colonial policy on partitioning. The idea was to seperate ethnic groups to reduce the level of sectarian and ethnic conflict. If you have all the Shi'ites in one country then they'll go after the Sunni's. On the other hand if you mix it up then they'll all get along better.

Nice idea, unfortunately they failed to grasp one thing, drawing lines on a map and giving out flags does not make countries.

BDC
12-21-2006, 00:43
Nice idea, unfortunately they failed to grasp one thing, drawing lines on a map and giving out flags does not make countries.

Every country needs its own dog breed and/or specific alcoholic drink...

BigTex
12-21-2006, 00:53
Nice idea, unfortunately they failed to grasp one thing, drawing lines on a map and giving out flags does not make countries.

It can work, just draw it up hand out the flags. Then leave them unattended to have a go at redrawing em for a few decades.

Lines on a map have never represented countries. Great leaders are what create countries. Something which seems to be lacking over there right now.

This isnt the 30 years war. Even if it was, that was a hugely obscene amount of killing. You can indeed instill in them the lessons learned during that time, but again it takes great men not great murderers to get it done. This also wouldnt be the same as the 30 years war if we let it go. There are weapons now that can literally steralize the surface of the earth. Letting those crazies go at for a bit unchecked means at somepoint they'll get ahold of some russian nukes, and there goes isreal.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-22-2006, 00:53
It can work, just draw it up hand out the flags. Then leave them unattended to have a go at redrawing em for a few decades.

Lines on a map have never represented countries. Great leaders are what create countries. Something which seems to be lacking over there right now.

This isnt the 30 years war. Even if it was, that was a hugely obscene amount of killing. You can indeed instill in them the lessons learned during that time, but again it takes great men not great murderers to get it done. This also wouldnt be the same as the 30 years war if we let it go. There are weapons now that can literally steralize the surface of the earth. Letting those crazies go at for a bit unchecked means at somepoint they'll get ahold of some russian nukes, and there goes isreal.

So it doesn't work, does it. You are both correct and incorrect. Great men make countries but our great men were all ruthless murderers who would have quite happily sat down with Saddam. Take England as an example

Alfred the Great

William the Bastard/Conquerer

Richard the Lion Heart.

Edward I Long Shanks/Hammer of the Scots.

The Black Prince

Henry V

Henry IIV

Henry IIIV

Elizabeth I

Those are the people that made England and every one of them was ruthless and brutal. At a Tea party Mr Saddam would fit right in.

Pannonian
12-22-2006, 01:11
You left out Winston Churchill, the last of the great English imperialists, and easily as ruthless and brutal as Saddam. FDR described him admiringly as "a classic Tory" after one of their spats. FDR himself was the ultimate in Liberal imperialists, as Churchill was the Tory counterpart.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-22-2006, 01:18
Ah, ha. I said "made England" and stopped before James I.
:bounce:

I'll take your point though Churchil was a great leader, in a more superstitious era perhaps they would have called him Arthur reborn.

BigTex
12-22-2006, 23:47
So it doesn't work, does it. You are both correct and incorrect. Great men make countries but our great men were all ruthless murderers who would have quite happily sat down with Saddam. Take England as an example

Alfred the Great

William the Bastard/Conquerer

Richard the Lion Heart.

Edward I Long Shanks/Hammer of the Scots.

The Black Prince

Henry V

Henry IIV

Henry IIIV

Elizabeth I

Those are the people that made England and every one of them was ruthless and brutal. At a Tea party Mr Saddam would fit right in.

Indeed great men who forge countries also are the bane of humanity. But that is how countries are formed. Without great leaders countries will not form. Though there is that very rare Great who seeks only to help is fellows and relinquishes authority when the jobs done. But only 3 come to mind.

And yes It doesnt really work. But one can never create countries themselves. They can't even resurrect foreign countries. A country must be created by people, by leaders. But drawing lines on a map is definately a start. Granted if we wanted real countries to form in the middle east. We'd have to let them go at it for a few decades, cover our eyes rock back and forth while singing "Barney" songs while all the genocides take place.

Watchman
12-23-2006, 09:01
Retreat into solipsism would seem like a solution both naive, very short-sighted, and irresponsible to me. A good part of the problems there are directly or indirectly our make to begin with, and not a few are connected to our desire for cheap petrochemicals after all.

Not to mention that such isolationist stances would hardly be viable in the modern ludicrously interconnected "global village" anyway...

However attractive the idea of crawling into your bed and pulling the blanket over your ears might appear, it is very much a helpless primitive reaction and not a recommended course of action. Not a small part of the problems at least partially stem from actively ignoring salient issues to begin with, and it is somewhat difficult to understand where more of the same would be helpful.