View Full Version : The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes
The M2TW pikeman is a confused and neglected individual. Despite the effectiveness of his historical counterpart, the M2TW pikeman clearly hates his job. Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. This opportunity is first contact with the enemy. Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves. Unfortunately, he has usually neglected to bring a shield along as well. Combined with his total lack of footwork, this shortens his life-expectancy in melee to considerably less than the average peasant.
Numerous pleas have been made on behalf of the poor pikeman's dilemma, but no help is forthcoming. Many prefer to ignore his existence, considering his inclusion in the game as "ahistorical" and preferring to concentrate on tweaking more characterful units such as axemen and longbows. Others justify his confusion as part of an RPS system where swords beat pikes. Faced with the superiority of swords against his unwieldly pike, they argue, it is not surprising that the pikeman feels insecure and adopts the sword himself. Yet others point out that pike formations invariably lose cohesion or get outflanked in the melee, perhaps overlooking the fact that pikemen often become swordsmen almost immediately after initial contact with any kind of enemy. Finally, some contend that pikemen are only meant to check charges to the front and little else, otherwise they would be too powerful. This is perhaps unfair to the poor pikeman, since a closer observation would reveal that even a charge against braced pikemen forming spear wall will kill as many pikemen on initial contact as chargers.
Stern and ruthless tyrant that I am, I have attempted to correct this confusion by confiscating all swords from my Swiss mercs. No pikeman is to carry anything even remotely resembling a sword, upon pain of prolonged and agonizing death. Despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the results are incontestable. Chained to their pikes, my men have no choice but to vent their frustration and shame by poking at the enemy, killing anything that approaches them from the front. Kept at bay by the constantly-stabbing pikes, the enemy has no choice but to try and outflank, as swordsmen working their way past the first few rows of pikes will only claim a few victims before being impaled by those deeper within the formation. Even outflanking is ineffective unless the pikemen are already engaged to the front as the entire formation just turns on the spot to poke in the appropriate direction.
This tweak just replaced the pikemen's secondary weapon entry in the export_descr_unit file with the line from other units that don't have secondary weapons (ironically, I copied and pasted it from the Swordsmen Militia entry). This tricks the pikemen into not using their swords, even though they have the mesh and animations for it.
I am fully convinced that taking this firm and uncompromising stand is the right course of action and encourage all commanders to at least consider doing the same. In conclusion, "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
Disclaimer: I am not bashing CA. M2TW is a great game. This quickfix is for those few hardy "ahistorical" souls who feel that M2TW pikemen need some tweaking so they can enjoy using them ingame. I think there are a few such people out there (waves), if I'm wrong then sorry for wasting everyone's time.
Further Disclaimer: If you have mastered the art of pikemen deployment already and think that I just need to learn2playnoob, then good for you. If you have always hated pikemen and want them all dead, then ignore this fix as you would ignore them ingame. If you feel that pikemen are balanced or "historical" already then you can skip this fix too. Please do not assail me with your SCA pike experiences, I just wanted to see my pikemen actually poke something, someplace, sometime.
BUUUUUUAAAAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAHHA !!!!
Man I almost choked on my (late) lunch reading that post.
Can you fix spears as well please... so that they can hold up to cavalry. Pikes are terrible right now, it's really funny (in a tragic way) to see them all formed up with pointy sticks and just charge straight into them and they die like flies.
Please post your fix in point form. I'd apply it.
Bob the Insane
12-20-2006, 17:35
Nice post... It is an interesting problem...
I have not played with pike enough yet to give a considered opinion but it is a neat solution...
When you take them off spear wall formation, do they switch to swords?
Beefeater
12-20-2006, 17:42
Lovely comic writing there dopp!
AussieGiant
12-20-2006, 17:53
Fantastic!!!!
:laugh4:
Incidentally this is the direct opposite of the fix for the German Spearmen in RTW...
Anyway I have never really thought about this. But now I can't help but wonder how pikes do on walls... I remember how hard it was to push Flemmings off the walls in Antwerpen, with pikes it can only get worse.
Good post doop, but did it actually make the pikemen behave as they should! Show us some results! figures! rarrrr!
I posted a video of an early M2:TW trailer, and the pikes in the that were awesome, killing a lot of cav in the charge. Can't find the link now.
It's a good question, do they actually hold up in spear wall or do they resort to fighting as independents ?
Dave1984
12-20-2006, 18:37
Nice idea.
Just put it to the test. Works very well indeed, It'll certainly be a fixture in my games from now on.
One thing I noticed- the pikes still seem to lose a little cohesion and some pop into their "duel" mode. They still do better out of it than they did with their swords, but it looks odd them trying to stab the bad guy when the pike is already halfway through him! ;)
Daveybaby
12-20-2006, 18:42
Intriguing... and good.
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! "The average pikeman clearly hates life and himself."
dopp, can you post your edu entry for Scottish Noble Pikeman, post-fix? I'd like to try and give this a shot.
Kobal2fr
12-20-2006, 19:49
Interesting, though like kraxis the first thought that popped in my head was "how will they do on walls ?!".
Anyway, I fixed my file, and I'm sure I'll get time to play the damn game some instead of just modding it all the time :egypt:
Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...
OMGLAZERS
12-21-2006, 00:32
Post a fix, ASAP!
I didn't even realize Pikemen were so broken because I usually gave up on all the bugs and problems before I even got to turn 30 or 40 (thank god for Shaba Wangy's mods)
Brilliant, hadent really thought of doing that. As Kraxis said, it's exactly opposite of the fix for germanic spearman.
Tryed it out and they actually with keep their spears out and use a push of pike. The only bad thing is they still have the problem when they get close to the enemy of having the entire formation present tail and kill them with their elbows. Has anyone else noticed this?
Post a fix, ASAP!
Simple enough fix, doesnt require you to really post the unit.txt. All you need to do is go in, highlight the statistic portion of a swordsmen secondary weapon atribute. Copy that, then go down to the pikemens sec atr highlight the stats and paste.
Hashashiyyin
12-21-2006, 02:49
I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.
But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)
antisocialmunky
12-21-2006, 04:07
Technically you could classify Phillip III's Macedonian Phalangites - and those of the post-Alexander Hellenic Kingdoms - as Pikemen.
If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.
I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.
But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)
The romans used pikes in the early years. The reason they used swords is not because they were more effective, but they were far more influenced by the guals military techniques then the greeks and macedonians. The romans suffered horendous losses to pike formations. The fact that they won is not becuase they had the better tool, they won only because they had the better man power. Time and time again the romans were soundly and massively defeated by pike armies, but when the early romans lossed a battle that merely pissed them more off. They'd send 2 times the troops after a loss.
Possibly the 2 only reasons the romans managed to get through macedonia and greece is the massive depopulation of the region becuase of wars and emmigration to other Diodoche. They also nearly completely lost their cavalry wing of the army. A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.
Pikes are a good example of the Reniassance. With the rise of heavy cavalry again the pike was a good weapon to pear it with. Not to mention they also were good at protecting the musketeers. The pike has always been a far supperior weapon then the sword when in a proper formation and you have forced the enemy to your front.
nameless
12-21-2006, 05:21
Awhile ago I ran a test seeing what was best in dealing with the Aztecs as the Sicilians and found that pike militia were the best on VH settings.
This was about 6 pikemen vs. 10 Aztec warrirors. All infantry.
The Aztecs charged and in 4-5 ranks deep the pikemen were able to effectively hold the Aztecs at bay. Some got through but eventually were repulsed when some units switched to swords to repel them, then went back to pikes afterwards. The pikemen suffered little casualities but I can't say the same for the Aztecs.
Against cavalry their still the best option so I don't see the problem with them as their suppose to be defensive units in the game. I remember in RTW when everyone complained about the invincibility of the phalanx.
If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.
It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.
If your that concerned, see if you can borrow a copy and play a little to see if you like it. Of course there's nothing wrong waiting. I bought RTW a year after it was released.:2thumbsup: And still love it but I love MTW2 more.
Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. (...) Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves.
^^ my laugh for the day
=]
Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...
I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.
As to modding the pikemen to force them to use their pikes, I'm undecided. Unsupported pikes in this game only last for a few seconds after initial contact, after which everyone drops the pike for a sword, instead of the rear ranks supporting the front. I believe due to balance issues, CA made pikes the "anti-cavalry unit" but didn't take them as far as RTW did, i.e. unstoppable tanks (I mean come on, hoplites in RTW could fend off practically anything without it so much as getting close to them). I wouldn't want to see a repeat of the hoplite world domination scene that was RTW Greeks :P
I would like a bit of a reworking of pikemen, though. Maybe individual soldiers equipping the sword when required as opposed to everyone dropping the pike as soon as there's a breach somewhere. As is, you need to have reinforcements behind/in front of the pikemen else they will not hold the line against heavy infantry.
Hashashiyyin
12-21-2006, 07:30
Big Tex-
I've been trying to find evidence to back up what I stated (I only said it because I read it somewhere and I'm currently going through my "warfare history" books looking for where I read it). It appears you are correct, that the romans developed the sword, pilum, and scutum, as a counter to the gauls (Celts) fighting style. I did, however, find some quotes to back up what I said. Most of the information I can find about the fall of the phalanx has to do with the battles at Cynoscephalae and Pydna which do not include a troop count (estimates point toward a superiority in the Phalanx favor, but this seems more speculation then historic evidence). here it goes:
"Individually the Celts (Guals) were bigger than the Italians and had superior weapons produced by the best iron workers in Europe. The Celtic sword was capable of cutting right through the Italian shield. En masse the Celtic charge was so ferocious that the Italians could not withstand it.
It was to deal with the last two problems that the unique combination of gladius (sword), pilum (heavy javelin) and scutum (body shield) was developed. It was this system that conquered the Mediterranean world in the first and second centuries BC."
-Peter Conolly
"The Romans suffered disaster after disaster, losing nearly half a million men in the half century between 260 and 210 BC, but finally they emerged as masters of the western Mediterranean. The Celts were driven from the Po Valley and Greece was invaded during the early years of the seconds century BC. In two great battles, Cynoscephalae in 197 and Pydna in 168 BS, the supposedly invincible phalanx of the Macedonians was cut to pieces by the roman legions. This greatly astonished the Greek world and proved conclusively that the sword was mightier then the spear."
-Peter Conolly
"Thus, the phalanx was at its weakest when the enemy possessed large numbers of lighter and more flexible troops and it had no such supporting troops to match them with. An example of this is the battle of Lechaeum, where an Athenian army led by Iphicrates, containing a considerable proportion of light missile troops armed with javelins and bows, succeeded in routing an entire Spartan mora (a Spartan unit numbering anywhere from five to nine hundred hoplites). Iphicrates accomplished this by wearing the Spartans down with repeated attacks by his peltasts (skirmishers), causing a general disarray in the Spartan ranks and an eventual rout when the Spartans spotted Athenian heavy infantry reinforcements trying to flank them by boat.
It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."
-Wikipedia (I know, I know! Wikipedia isn't a great source but the material I quoted isn't under dispute at this time, but sill has no references!)
Anyway, not trying to start a flame war or anything, just trying to get to the bottom of the historic falling out of the Phalanx.
It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."
A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.
Again it was the steady decay of the companions and other horsemen that caused it to fail. Through the constant war's between the diodoche the elites of the macedonians had steadily been killed off most of the companions, and other elites. The steady emmigration from macedonia to other diodoche also hastened their decay.
As far as the skutum, gladius, and pilum combination. It was transfered to the romans from constant fighting with the guals, and spanish.
Part of the reason the phalanx fell out of favor was the steady decay of the greek world. The use of it was nearly forgotten about as the barbarian incurssions swept across europe. By the time of the dark age the old greek tactics were all but forgotten. The romans had steadily changed their tactics to that of nearly all cavalry based quick reaction forces. Most heavy infantry started to decline also. It wasnt until the reniassance brought the surge of classical greek writings did you see the phalanx finally return. It stayed for quite awhile also. Wasnt until the gun had finally become powerful and self reliant that it ceased to be used.
As an intresting side note, it hasnt been until recently that infantry has been really armored since the Medievel era. The amount of armor that has come into use in the past decades for infantry is quite amazing. With the steady use of urban tactics and increase in weapons for the infantry it would seem the that heavy infantry is coming back, all be it not in the same form. History has funny ways of repeating itself.
Blademun
12-21-2006, 09:37
I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.
If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.
Since they can't switch to swords now, pikemen who are left stranded in front of the formation will hang on to their pike, check dressing by looking around, and fall back into position. Previously they would draw swords and close with the enemy, getting chopped down as a result.
It does look a bit wierd with pikes sticking through everyone, but this was true even on vanilla settings. You just notice it more because they use their pikes longer.
Pikemen are almost unplayable on normal unit sizes. Their default formation is 8 ranks deep, which you will never achieve with just 75 men per unit. Therefore, their formation is easily disrupted unless they fight other pikemen. Even on huge sizes they drop pikes too easily, it's hit-or-miss with them. It's not that the enemy manage to infiltrate the formation, it's that the pikemen really seem to want to use their swords a little too much.
To get best use out of your modded pikemen, brace them in guard mode with spear wall on. Ironically, this usually results in the entire front rank getting flattened by the charging enemy. I have seen neat rows of dead pikemen lying flat as if mowed down by machinegun fire.
After first contact switch guard mode off and watch them do their thing. They should push forward and destroy the enemy. Do not rightclick the enemy, otherwise you will get that orientation bug where they do an aboutface and present their butts to the enemy.
The pike formation should prove nearly invincible from the front. This is not to say you won't take casualties. The reach of the pike doesn't seem to matter, so the swordsman can chop at the head of the pike and the poor fellow holding it will drop dead. This is already a huge step down in power from the phalanx of RTW, where the formation was for all intents and purposes invulnerable as well as invincible to frontal assault.
When attacked from the side or rear while engaged to the front the pikemen will ignore the enemy and continue stabbing to the front. This of course maintains their horrible vulnerability to getting outflanked. I have only done limited testing on this, I'll do some more later. I stupidly used Dismounted French Knights for the flanking tests, which of course proved inconclusive as the knights are bugged as well. Despite this, the knights beat the militia pikemen they faced easily.
Some tests run using vanilla militia pikemen vs jaguar warriors, normal unit sizes, 5 runs. An average of 10 die on both sides in the initial charge. Jaguar warriors outflank the pikes, but are held at bay from the front. Jaguars break away and charge repeatedly, killing more pikemen with each charge. Jaguars finally break and run. Final strengths 48 pikemen, 32 jaguar warriors. The jaguars are unable to close on the pikes in front, but do well on the sides.
Dismounted French Nobles vs vanilla militia pikemen, one test (before I realized they were bugged). Initial charge demolishes the entire front rank of the pikemen (so much for pikemen being overpowered huh?), 15 pikemen dead vs 7 Nobles. Nobles get stuck in that parry thing, but still manage to kill 10 more pikemen before the militia break and run. Noble losses are 15 or so.
I'll run some more tests and post the results.
Edit: Actually, interesting stuff on that combined arms approach there. However, I still feel pikemen should do more of that poking thing on their own rather than waiting for big brother with the 2-hander to come help out. You are more than welcome to disagree.
Further edit: Pikemen were, of course, the heavy infantry of their time. Initially they were supplemented by sword-and-buckler men, halberdiers and 2-handers, but eventually these additions all proved rather unnecessary, even if they were sometimes very effective at tipping the balance between otherwise evenly-matched pike formations. The role of heavy infantry is to contest ground. Skirmishers and other specialised troops like archers are too light to hold ground, the possession of which is a necessary ingredient for victory in the Western world (in the East it's perhaps a different story; just look at the Mongols). Heavy infantry takes up a position and refuses to be dislodged. If the men are determined to stand (not always a given), nothing short of an attack by opposing heavy infantry can drive them away. Heavy infantry includes Napoleonic musketeers, who fired volleys of lead into each other at 50 yards or less and then charged with bayonets, even though they were completely unarmored. At this stage of infantry development (in the game), however, the bayonet had not yet been invented, and firearms were still not numerous enough to completely replace hand weapons. So you get large blocks of pikemen poking at each other at the culminating moment of the action, and the one who wins the 'push of pike' usually wins the battle. I therefore don't really buy into this specialized 'anti-cavalry' role that pikemen are assigned in M2TW (always assuming, of course, that they are working as intended in the first place). Pikemen are heavy infantry, they should be able to duke it out with the best and come out on top in a head-on confrontation. Once again, you are all welcome to disagree, this is personal taste here. Cost and upkeep can be tweaked, but I feel pikemen should hang on to their pikes much longer and not give in to their inner swordsman.
:2thumbsup: on the first post of teh topic.
It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.
Outstanding troll. So anyone who has opinions that don't jive with yours is blowing stuff out of proportion?
@ Dopp
Holy crap! I just did what you said for the Scotish Noble Pikeman, copied over the lines from unit w/no secondary attack... This is on huge unit size, medium, and I have vaultdweller's two-hander fix installed.
They absolutely TORE up French mounted Sergeants, French mounted Chivalric Knights, AND Dismounted French Chivalric Knights!!! I think they lost maybe 20 guys to the DCKs, who had 10 left when they routed. If you do it like you said, leave them braced in formation with guard mode on, then turn off guard mode after impact, they will attack much better in the general melee. Of course as someone stated seeing the animations with pikes swinging merrily through their cohorts doesn't look very .... natural.. and they are a bit overpowered, but at least we have a unit that can now reasonably stand up to cav charges.
IvarrWolfsong
12-21-2006, 21:52
I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.
But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)
Actually, Medieval pikes came into vogue well before firearms were appearing on the battle fields. The pike formation was, for poorer folks (Swiss or Scots) or people without a warrior culture (Flanders), the answer to the cavalry charge. Bannockburn, Golden Spurs, Otterburn and the dominance of Swiss Pike tactics demonstrated the superiority of pike formations over not only cavalry, but men at arms using mixed melee weapons.
Rather than bringing the pike back inro prominence, firearms served to reduce its use. As firearms became more reliable and cheaper, the ratio of pike to gunners decreased until finally the bayonette put the last pikemen on social security :laugh4: .
The counter to pikemen is (and was) missle troops. Shoot them to pieces before you engage them. Compare Otterburn, where Hotspur raced up to engage the Scots before his bowmen had arrived and was thoroughly trounced against Halidon Hill where the English faced nearly the same force and crushed them after setting up a nice crossfire.
On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes :inquisitive: .
On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes :inquisitive: .
Methinks this was because of the shield effect. Hoplites and Pikemen in RTW carried shields which added to their defensive capabilities, whereas pike units in M2TW don't. And yes, I remember the damn Sacred Band and Spartans, they were all but impervious to arrows. :wall: That coupled with the 1.5 buttspike bug just made them that much tougher to deal with. Best way to beat em was a healthy dose of pila, followed by a left-flank charge with the sword-based infantry.
General Zhukov
12-22-2006, 01:06
Interesting topic. Great forums too.
Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?
I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.
Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.
Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.
Headlocked
12-22-2006, 01:13
Boody hell, just noticed that "presenting-bum-to-the-enemy-and-trying-to-sit-on-his-sword" bug.
its simply hilarious.
5 mins into the combat, no matter what orders, and even if none are given, the pikemen perform the exact above manuever. The only thing they dont do is bend over.
My god.
That is easily the worst bug/glitch ive seen so far. Not even the 2-hander one comes as daft as this.
Anyone have any fixes ont his?
Interesting topic. Great forums too.
Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?
I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.
Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.
Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.
Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.
Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.
General Zhukov
12-22-2006, 03:13
Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry.
I didn't have the privilege of playing RTW, but it really does seem like some of the phalanx tactics employed in the earlier eras would be comically easy to counter. Take for example a bunched unit of M2TW pikemen stranded on the battlefield versus a unit of dismounted knights. The "phalanx"'s strength comes from its incredible forward-facing firepower, which is maintained by its tight, rigid formation and discipline. Those strengths become liabilities when faced either with missle fire, or with flexible melee forces that have the capacity and tools to hit the formation on any of its 3 soft underbellies. Mentioned dismounted knights would just divide and envelop the phalanx. If the spearmen tried to manuever to counter the flankers, its formation would break up, causing the unit to lose its great advantage. It could be that CA's implementation of this "react to me or die" reality takes the form of the pikemen drawing swords to meet the foe on equal (or, since heavy infantry is heavily armored, unequal) footing.
Zenicetus
12-22-2006, 03:18
Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.
Right, I think that's what CA intended with the game design. Pikemen lack armor, or the shields of classical hoplite units. And so even with the pointy sticks they're a poor choice one-on-one against a unit of dismounted knights, without support. They're designed for the late period, when you have armor-piercing gunpowder units in support.
Heavily armored enemy soldiers (mounted or foot) never get very far into my Tercio pikemen's front line, before they're shredded at close range with musket balls. Maybe that's why I've never noticed this problem with dropping pikes and using swords. But they gotta work together with the muskets. Crossbows and archers aren't that effective against heavily armored units before the gunpowder era, so my front line has to be something heavier like dismounted knights. I never build pikes as early as they're available.... I wait for the guns to back them up.
The reverse formation bug is not one easily fixed and will possibly require changes to the actual code. That's CA's department, not mine. It's caused in part by attacking infantry/cavalry penetrating the formation too deeply on the first charge. Only fix is to play on huge unit sizes so the formation is dense enough to withstand the enemy, or to increase the collision mass and discipline of the pikemen.
Pikemen in M2TW were always hideously devastating *when they poke with their pikes*, which is what prompted me to try out this fix. They just weren't poking enough. I initially accepted the rationale that they were there only to support the musketeers (although I didn't agree with it), but I got so tired of seeing their miserable swordplay. The results encouraged me to keep this fix. It's not a perfect fix and may make them too powerful, but at least they poke things and I can see some real 'push of pike' here.
I'm not entirely sure that they will ever be as powerful as phalanxes in Rome, even by taking away their swords (and thus their vulnerability to close quarter fighting). Their spear wall is much less powerful and doesn't stop attackers from breaking into their formation on the charge. The charge even kills as many pikemen as attackers (especially if the attackers are swordsmen, might be better *not* to brace against them). Their stats are hopelessly inferior to hoplites; lacking shields, good armor (armor upgrades are BORKED, I tell you) and high defense skill. Even their attack and charge is 50% lower on average. When ordered to attack they walk confusedly into the enemy and get hacked down (this is definitely a bug, although there are workarounds).
General observations: with this fix in place pikemen will attempt to maintain formation at all times and will poke with their pikes, instead of deciding to be swordsmen the moment they find themselves a little out of position. Pikemen stranded a little ahead of the main line will get their act together and fall back into line instead of showing off their swordplay. The wall of stabbing spears is incredibly lethal to anything approaching from the front. This was true even before I tried this fix when I managed to get my pikes to work properly (took a bit of luck; half the time they still drew swords for no discernable reason); they demolished frontal assaults with ease. Nothing but another pike formation can withstand the wall of points, and even then it's mutually assured destruction.
Attacked from the flank or rear individual pikemen will turn and poke at the enemy, but the formation still remains weak to flanking, as the original design intended. The lethality of the pike formation comes from the wall of points to the front; individual pikemen fending off flankers are much more vulnerable, even if they are using their pikes rather than swords. I personally have an issue with this (square formation, anyone?) but it's not something I will lose sleep over. It doesn't look too bad as the animation set forces a certain distance between the attacker and pikeman, so clipping is kept to a minimum. It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.
Edit: See my "heavy infantry" post above. Even if they are "working completely as intended" (which I seriously doubt, they do seem a little bugged) and are supposed to behave that way against swordsmen, I will probably still mod them to poke people. Pikemen are classified as heavy infantry, they were the ultimate form of heavy infantry, they should be able to stand up to heavy infantry. If CA wants pikemen as specialized anti-cav and useless at anything else (this is not known for sure), I feel myself free to disagree with their unit balance and mod it to my satisfaction.
It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.
Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.
Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.
Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.
Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.
OK now I follow. I never had the "last stand" formation happen because with your fix in place, the pikes are so damn powerful that they rarely ever lose more than 1/3 of their number in melee. I had them go up against 2 units of DCK's and they ripped em to shreds. HAs still give them a decent beating though, but when you run out of ammo the best thing is to just flee, because any kind of charge period with even a few of them remaining is suicidal. Still think it'd be an interesting idea to give them schiltron to see what happens. :grin:
Actually, pikemen are now much *too* powerful from the front, but it's hard to say whether vanilla settings were working as intended either with all that sword nonsense. Ah well, at least they use their pikes more, and they can actually attack the enemy somewhat, rather than just being a roadblock. I'd settle for uber RTW hedgehogs of death over wannabe swordsmen any day.
Some testing reveals that properly braced pikemen are now almost completely invincible from the front. In fact, testing reveals that pikemen are now invincible from the front, regardless of whether they are braced or not (they can still get demolished by a good cavalry charge if they are stupid enough not to brace). I can't link images here for some reason, so I can't illustrate my points with screenies. They are still very weak from the rear and sides, but no more so than before. They don't seem to have any more difficulty poking at flankers with pikes rather than swords, but of course are total trash either way.
On vanilla settings:
With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who have drawn their own swords. This happens about 50% of the time, depending on how motivated the pikemen are feeling that day (they hate their job, remember?).
The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen draw swords and the formation collapses. Even if they kill their immediate targets, the pikemen will continue to fight as swordsmen from then on.
Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the front rank pikemen will attempt to march through the enemy ranks and get butchered. It's like their attack distance is not taking the reach of the pike into account. Those pikemen who survive will naturally switch to swords since they are now intermingled with the enemy. The rear rankers, on the other hand, start poking at the correct distance, but eventually give it up and switch over to swords too.
Using "no swords for you" fix/tweak/cheat:
With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who are poking back with their pikes (it's still a massacre on the flanks). This happens about 50% of the time.
The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen then proceed to slaughter the fools, constantly trying to maintain formation. Once all the swordsmen that have penetrated the formation are dead, the pikemen freeze up and hold the rest at bay in a staring contest.
Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the entire formation will start pushing with their pikes. Individual retards will still try to march past the enemy, but will usually realize their mistake and fall back into formation. Enemy is completely slaughtered with few pikemen deaths.
Never tried to charge with them, or put them on walls. Will try and see what happens.
I'll check this tomorrow, but I'm going on vacation for a week or more so won't be much use until Jan. If you get this in time, give me some exact matchups between specific units and I'll do the same. I always play on huge unit sizes, medium most of the time, on that grassy flat map to even stuff out. I say we do huge (if your box can handle that, mine seems ok...), medium diff, grassy map with no weather to eliminate as many variables as possible. Open to other options. Also be sure and post unit stats if you "fix" the pikes so I can use the same thing.
If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.
Nice. ~;)
The reality is that pikes replaced everyone at a certain point. The Swiss with their offensive pikes were the supreme infantry. Pikes were supplemented but the mass of infantry were Pikes. So strong cheap pikes is now in my mod. :2thumbsup:
The main reason pikemen didn't come into vogue earlier is simple... Medieval armies relied heavily on largely untrained rabble, and pikemen require constant drill and extensive training to be truly effective.
ChewieTobbacca
12-22-2006, 10:19
In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72053&page=2
I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.
In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72053&page=2
I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.
That only works about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time they switch to swords. I've tried that rightclick trick numerous times and the formation will break up almost instantly. Switching them off guard mode sometimes accomplishes the same result, sometimes it doesn't. It's very iffy, in fact I recommend NOT rightclicking if you use vanilla settings, just wait until the pike formation steadies (ie the pikemen freeze in position and the enemy can't approach closer) before switching off guard mode to let the pikemen start pushing. Of course, often the enemy break right through the pikes on the first charge, the swords come out and stay out, and the formation is utterly destroyed. I don't mind weaker pikemen, but they need to use their pikes more.
Also, I'm not sure I buy the idea of dismounted knights being the game's ultimate heavy infantry. A bunch of rich horsemen who decided to walk one day shouldn't still rule the battlefield as they do when mounted. Dismounted cavalry aside, there aren't really that many higher-level swordsmen available, they mostly become pikes and halberds. The only high-level swordsmen I can think of atm are sword-and-buckler men and those crazy HRE 2-handers. Everyone else either gets pikemen or some sort of halberd/bill/glaive for their ultimate heavy infantry, and right now pikemen don't seem to want to be pikemen.
That said, my tests reveal that pikemen get rather invincible if they stay in formation and don't give in to visions of swordplay. Their stats may need rebalancing if you decide to use my proposed tweak. All tests are on huge unit sizes.
First test series (5 tests each series), Scottish Heavy Pike Militia (the armored ones) vs English Armored Swordsmen. Scots widen formation 4 deep to match the English and brace in spear wall. Scots switched off guard mode after initial contact and begin to poke. Test ends the instant the Swordsmen break. The swordsmen break right into the formation on the first charge, but are quickly pushed out or dispatched before the pikemen go onto the offensive, easily killing the remaining swordsmen before the few pitiful survivors run for their lives. Kills average 86-95 for the pikemen and 13-27 for the swordsmen.
Second test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs Jaguar Warriors, same setup. The Jaguar Warriors smack the entire front rank of pikemen into the dirt on contact before getting pushed back by the rear ranks. The pikemen go on the offensive, annihilating the Jaguars within seconds. Final score: 105-127 for the pikemen and 17-34 for the jaguars.
Third test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs the legendary Janissary Heavy Infantry. The janissaries are wiped out in the centre, but the eight or so that work their way around each flank kill over 40 pikemen before they are routed. I increased the width of the Tercio to compensate. This time the pikemen rout the janissaries with ease. 107 kills for the pikemen every time and 13-23 kills for the janissaries. Something wrong here, I don't really want janissaries to lose so easily.
Fourth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs 2 units of English Armored Swordsmen, one approaching head-on, one moving to flank. The stupid AI forces the pikes to march to engage instead of bracing. The Scots tear up the frontal attackers but are massacred by the flankers. 74-78 kills for the pikes, 120 for both swords.
Fifth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs English Heavy Billmen and Demi-Lancers delivering a rear charge. Pikemen tear up the bills but are completely flattened by the lancers, who lose barely 5 men before the pikes break. The kill figures are completely meaningless since 80% of the unit is vaporised on impact with the horses.
Conclusion: Hard to say. The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.
Edit: You will get very different results depending on whether you or the AI controls the pikemen. AI-controlled pikemen are much more vulnerable, swords or no swords. In fact, AI-controlled pikemen on vanilla are completely hopeless, they don't even attack and do that aboutface thing.
You will also get different results if you use full armies against each other. In pitched battle 6 JHI chopped apart 6 Tercios with contemptous ease.
grinningman
12-22-2006, 12:58
The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.
Is it a bad thing for pikes to be invincible from the front? This sounds fine to me. They can still be dealt with via outflanking and missile fire.
Ludivico Sforza
12-22-2006, 13:21
Thanks for this, indespensible for my personal Pike and Musket mod.
I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.
However Swiss Pikemen and perhaps Flemish as well, would be far more disciplined, and wuld not draw their swords until the very last moment. So perhaps they, the Landsknechts, Scottish Noble Pikes and Tercios should be the only ones to not have swords?
The would make them viable on the offensive, while the lesser pikes would be strong defensive units, there mainly to hold the frontlines while cavalry or strong infantry flank.
I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.
Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.
Ektelion
12-22-2006, 17:50
This is probably the reason england so handily beats scotland in terms of infantry balance, IMHO.
Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.
Ah yes, but it is the thinking behind the pikes that is the expensive part. It still demands a good deal to figure that out (apparently), and it requires a certain degree of local logistics (in terms of weapons and trainers) to get it going.
Also you have to consider the fact that without a 'Marius event' there is little to limit the pikes, other than relatively high tech. So that you get pikes at an appropriate age... I don't think it is fair to coldly look at the costs needed to get to pikes. Their techlevel is a limit on their appearance in time, not a realistic guage as to how effective the troops are at killing.
But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.
But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.
I think it's okay for militia pikes to have no swords as well in that case, since they are far more fragile than the professionals. You even stand a chance of beating them frontally if you throw something hard enough at them. It's the professionals I'm a little concerned about, it's no fun for a Turkish or Byzantine player to throw Janissaries and Varangians and watch them go splat against Swiss or something.
Note: Pikemen can still be beaten easily if you flank or rear them. A cavalry charge to the rear will destroy them as easily as any other unit. A swordsmen unit that overlaps the flanks will also trounce them handily. It's to the front that they are almost invincible as their kill rate is unbelievably fast. Once again, achieving this kill rate *is* possible in vanilla, I just made it possible anytime, all the time.
Kobal2fr
12-23-2006, 17:42
I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?
But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/
I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?
But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/
Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.
Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.
I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.
Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.
If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.
It is possible to have it both ways. Halberds can deliver and so can pikes. It's not mutually exclusive, but currently in an unmodded version neither really deliver (except JHI). At least we got one working this way, plus combined with any one of the 2H fixes might make it all come together. Nobody should be attacking pikes head on anyway.
Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?
Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.
Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.
I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.
Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.
If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.
JHI are NOT halberdiers. Halberds have the spearwall formation, JHI do not. Try them against actual Halberd Militia.
Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?
Heh, if I could figure out how to post screenies I have a nice shot of Noble Pikemen receiving a fatal overdose of Demi-Lancers to the rear. Pikemen are just as vulnerable to rear charges as any other unit, even more so as only the individual pikemen being attacked will turn around to strike (with pikes OR swords; the mod doesn't seem to make a difference in the pikemen's rather poor ability to defend themselves against flankers).
I also have a nice screen of JHI overlapping a Tercio. The Tercios killed all the JHI immediately facing them, but got massacred on the flanks. The flanking 16 JHI killed 40-60 pikemen and would have destroyed the whole unit if I didn't switch spear wall off and allowed the pikemen to defend themselves.
The real, real problem with pikemen is that they don't use the reach of their pike to full advantage. Order a unit of pikemen to attack another and you'll see what I mean. The unit moving to engage will try to walk into the target, whereupon both sides will break out swords and it becomes a swordsmen fight from then on. No push of pike at all. Or brace a unit of pikemen and run a unit of swords into it. The pikemen will draw swords and kill off the attackers who break into the formation, then they will close with the enemy and fight as swordsmen from then on. Even with this "tweak" I've had the AI try to walk pikemen through my DGK, taking hideous losses in the process. The custom battle AI is a little retarded when it comes to using pikemen.
Btw, I tried JHI against Jaguar Warriors and they lost all 3 times. Are they really overpowered? They seem to be made of tissue paper and their attack animation isn't all that fast either.
You can post screens by:
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Hmmm... Halberd militia seems to need a boost... They get creamed by Pike Militia when they should realistically win. The smaller unit size and weaker stats are making them basically useless...
Hmmm... Halberd militia seems to need a boost... They get creamed by Pike Militia when they should realistically win. The smaller unit size and weaker stats are making them basically useless...
Swiss guards get creamed by pike militia too. Swiss guards get creamed by Aztec warriors. Halberds sux.
A few more observations on vanilla settings (without the proposed fix):
On vanilla, pikemen are still pretty strong, but it looks dumb. SWITCH GUARD MODE OFF against infantry, guard mode (and the cool braced position) is almost completely useless against swordsmen.
With guard mode off, the pikes will still stop the initial infantry charge. The pikemen will poke aggressively two or three times and clear the entire front rank of attackers. Looks fantastic, but then the entire unit switches over to swords. Fortunately, they have usually inflicted enough kills to see the enemy off. So the pikes become sort of defensive lances, used just for the initial charge and discarded for the REAL weapons. Something wrong here...
I think you're smoking something. I just tested Swiss Guard vs. Pike Militia, and it was a massacre...
The Swiss Guard won with 89 men left, vs. 5 pike militia.
I think you're smoking something. I just tested Swiss Guard vs. Pike Militia, and it was a massacre...
The Swiss Guard won with 89 men left, vs. 5 pike militia.
Did you play the Swiss or the Pikes? The AI is hopeless at using pikes, modded or not, it'll just order the pikes to walk through the enemy.
I played as the Swiss Guard... Turned off guard mode, and accepted the pike charge. I've got the pikes modded so they won't switch to swords. They still got murdered.
I played as the Swiss Guard... Turned off guard mode, and accepted the pike charge. I've got the pikes modded so they won't switch to swords. They still got murdered.
Exactly. Switch and play the pike miltia, they'll chew through the Swiss, guaranteed. You *could* give the same fix to halberds, but then they'll just become pikemen with AP. They won't chop or swing, just poke.
Something interesting playing vanilla pikes in custom battle. You'd think bracing in guard mode helps. It doesn't. French lancers vs pike militia, the militia held against the lancers' formed charge whether braced or not. Switched off spear wall (gulp). The lancers' formed charge *still* failed, but they beat the pikemen to death in melee. In fact, pikemen sux against cav in melee. They switch to swords and get massacred by their betters. Kills are about equal, except that the horsemen run out of people before the pikemen do (80 vs 150). Fun stuff. I think I might report this as a bug now.
Well, I played Militia Halberds vs AI Militia Pikes, and the Pikes OWNED the halberds. I mean, horrifically destroyed them. So it's not just player influence.
General Zhukov
12-26-2006, 02:34
So the pikes become sort of defensive lances, used just for the initial charge and [then] discarded for the REAL weapons.
You have discovered both the utility of the pike, and the digitized desire for survival that causes pikemen to reach for proper hand weapons in close melee!
After the Frecnch Lancers' initial charge in your test, did they attempt to continue poking with their lances as an effective tactic in melee? Had they done so, it might have been reasonable for the pikemen to meet reach with reach. But I suspect the knights, being mounted heavy infantry, switched to swords so that they could force a new paradigm on the pikemen; a paradigm that negates the reach and formation advantages of a phalanx. The digitized desire for survival tells the pikeman that his 18 feet of twig is going to be of little use against the men and horse that are fighting him from inside his own formation...
By the way, how do Scottish Noble Pikes fare in melee with other heavy infantry troops? That is, after the Scots have swished to swords? It would seem that the heavy armor of the Noble Pikemen, combined with their (presumably) increased competency as swordsman, would come closer to your desire for an all purpose unit that can stop chargers dead and also defeat other heavy inf. on the battlefield.
You have discovered both the utility of the pike, and the digitized desire for survival that causes pikemen to reach for proper hand weapons in close melee!
After the Frecnch Lancers' initial charge in your test, did they attempt to continue poking with their lances as an effective tactic in melee? Had they done so, it might have been reasonable for the pikemen to meet reach with reach. But I suspect the knights, being mounted heavy infantry, switched to swords so that they could force a new paradigm on the pikemen; a paradigm that negates the reach and formation advantages of a phalanx. The digitized desire for survival tells the pikeman that his 18 feet of twig is going to be of little use against the men and horse that are fighting him from inside his own formation...
By the way, how do Scottish Noble Pikes fare in melee with other heavy infantry troops? That is, after the Scots have swished to swords? It would seem that the heavy armor of the Noble Pikemen, combined with their (presumably) increased competency as swordsman, would come closer to your desire for an all purpose unit that can stop chargers dead and also defeat other heavy inf. on the battlefield.
All pikemen are inferior swordsmen (not hopeless, just poorer than real swordsmen) because of three main things:
1. Slower sword attack animation (about 2/3 the speed of a real swordsmen).
2. No shield.
3. Lower defense skill.
The whole purpose of the spear wall is to prevent enemies from getting within arm's length. If my enemy wants to be dumb enough to draw a sword when I have 18 feet of reach on him and can bring two weapons to bear (M2TW pikemen attack in 2 ranks, spearmen only 1 rank) to his one, should I really be a gentleman and use my sword to even the odds? That's like fighting Jet Li hand-to-hand when you have an assault rifle.
The all-purpose unit that can stop charges and turn them into mincemeat is the Western Halberd Militia (and elites like Swiss Guard). They form spear wall to break the charge, then switch over to hacking. They actually have two weapons. The primary weapon is a pike (but using the halberd graphics) with all the associated bonuses. The secondary weapon is the halberd proper with hacking animations. Because both primary and secondary weapons use the same graphics, you won't notice that they are actually "switching" weapons after they break the charge.
Pikemen break the charge and switch over to secondary weapons too, but their secondary weapon is the sword, thus it looks a bit dumb and it greatly weakens their combat effectiveness. The weapon switching code seems more optimized for halberdiers than pikemen at the moment.
Can someone please post this mod up for people who have no idea how to mod. I would greatly appreciate this and it would make my day. Thank You
I've implemented this fix and love it. The pikes are a bit too strong now, with a tad too much ability to "turn" even in formation and fight, but they're not invincible. But now I've managed to have some real tercio vs landsknecht battles, utilizing historical pike & shot tactics. Great find, dopp!
A workaround to vanilla M2TW pikemen that I've found works quite well is to switch the pikemen's "stance" upon impact. What usually happens is as soon as infantry charge into pikemen, they break out of their pike formation and whip out the swords.
So I've been trying stuff out, and it seems if you keep the pikemen out of spearwall formation, they'll still form it, break the charge and start switching to swords. Just as they start lifting the pikes, if you activate spearwall formation, it seems to renew the "hold pike" command and they bring their pikes back down to hold the enemy infantry away. The only infantry that slip through the pikes this way are stray units that slip around the side to the flanks, and any unit that slipped through the pike wall while you do your little reform maneuver right after the charge. Usually one or two pikemen will whip out their swords to take care of said infantry (with some casualties depending on how tough the charging infantry is), while the rest keep their pikes in place. Then you can turn off "defend" mode at your leisure to have the pike wall push forward. It's micromanagement-intensive, but it works.
A workaround to vanilla M2TW pikemen that I've found works quite well is to switch the pikemen's "stance" upon impact. What usually happens is as soon as infantry charge into pikemen, they break out of their pike formation and whip out the swords.
So I've been trying stuff out, and it seems if you keep the pikemen out of spearwall formation, they'll still form it, break the charge and start switching to swords. Just as they start lifting the pikes, if you activate spearwall formation, it seems to renew the "hold pike" command and they bring their pikes back down to hold the enemy infantry away. The only infantry that slip through the pikes this way are stray units that slip around the side to the flanks, and any unit that slipped through the pike wall while you do your little reform maneuver right after the charge. Usually one or two pikemen will whip out their swords to take care of said infantry (with some casualties depending on how tough the charging infantry is), while the rest keep their pikes in place. Then you can turn off "defend" mode at your leisure to have the pike wall push forward. It's micromanagement-intensive, but it works.
Yeah that was the "old" way of doing it. But once again it doesn't always work and the time window is very narrow. Doing that for a whole line of pikemen units when they all get charged at once is very difficult. Considering you have to go through all that just to get the pikemen to do what they are supposed to be doing in the first place (ie use pikes against frontal chargers), I'd say something is wrong with them.
pike master
12-30-2006, 07:19
interesting information. i have my own opinions and have developed my own workarounds.
for one when the pike took over the battlefield even polearms had difficulty making it through the spearwall. the swiss originally used halberds but when they experimented with pikes to give them help against heavy horse they decided to try and adapt that old phalanx from ancient times.
turned out they not only emulated it they made it even better. combined with supporting units of halberdiers they could defeat armies without depending on a cavalry arm the way the mecedonians did.
the halberdiers acted as the flexible force that assaulted fortifications exploited breaches in the enemies line or hit an exposed flank. but against the formidable pike wall even hacking and trying to splinter the pikes down would take so long the battle would be over or they would have been pushed off a cliff.
the only sure way to stop pikes was with pikes just like in world war two it was said that the best anti-tank weapon was another tank.against the dead end evolution of the great sword or(processional sword as it was called).the game definetly overdramatizes that weapon. the name itself suggest it eventual duties. it was designed i think to counter the pike wall with the intention to hack and splinter pikes and get into the mass of unarmed pikemen at its center and created carnage.
sadly the examples i have seen at military collectors shows demonstrate their weakness in that they would often break near the secondary quillon a victim of their great length just like the poor irish elk of prehistoric times.it seemed that a wood beam been hit by a long piece of metal would do more damage to the metal than the seasoned wood.
on to the second topic. i have found a workaround for those who either dont mod or who multiplayer and that is what i call the pike column.
heres how it works take at least two pike units and organize them in column but spread them only two deep. in battle order them to attack enemy when they engage the front formation does its well known wooden swords dance but the second formation engages fully this in turn encourages the front formation to pick their pikes back up and start poking again. most enemy units crack so quick that there isnt any time for their comrades to flank you.
organized in 4 unit column blocks they have unusual discipline and ability to resist flank attacks without routing.even though you are engaged with a more flexible foe they just cant seem to understand that while they are awed at your invincible formation you have just dusted half their army with heavy knights and "assault peasants" who bear the awe inspiring pitchfork(bane of the knight).
there is no need to use much missile units if any since you will crush his melee units and slower moving missile and horse archers will run out of arrows because of the new game mechanics.
hail to the mighty pike.
So what is the upshot to this thread? Take away their swords or not? Some report it makes no difference others that it is too powerful. :help:
Zenicetus
12-31-2006, 06:52
So what is the upshot to this thread? Take away their swords or not? Some report it makes no difference others that it is too powerful. :help:
There are too many variables here. Just try pikes yourself, and see if you think they need "help" with you personal style of play and game settings.
FWIW, I'm happy with vanilla, un-modded pike units (Tercio, in my Spanish campaign), because I never build them until I'm also building lots of musketeers as a combined army, to take down the armored guys before they can reach the pikes and do much damage, or force them into weird fighting modes. Before good armor-piercing gunpowder units are available, I don't mess with pikes. I just use dismounted knights.
It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.
To recap, taking away their swords makes them almost invincible from the front. They still remain vulnerable to flank and rear charges, missile fire and other pikes. Any unit that attacks them from the front will take heavy losses. They will use their pikes more. They will actually be able to march up and attack the enemy with pikes properly. They will actually be pikemen and not swordsmen.
It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.
To recap, taking away their swords makes them almost invincible from the front. They still remain vulnerable to flank and rear charges, missile fire and other pikes. Any unit that attacks them from the front will take heavy losses. They will use their pikes more. They will actually be able to march up and attack the enemy with pikes properly. They will actually be pikemen and not swordsmen.
Zenicetus
12-31-2006, 09:02
It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.
Lame roadblocks??? :inquisitive:
These guys have practically no armor. It doesn't make sense to me, to use them as my primary front line against heavily armored units, until I have a supporting unit like armor-piercing musketeers.
But there are many ways to play the game. I'm certainly not arguing against using them earlier, or unsupported, or whatever works for you. For me, they need support. They work so well with decent support that I don't feel a strong urge to mode them away from vanilla. But that's just me.
Historically speaking, a disciplined pike wall could easily halt and roll over enemy infantry. In fact, I believe the pike was the dominant weapon on the battlefield until the musket started taking over.
In-game pikemen can barely hold off infantry charges unless you fiddle with the controls, and they are atrocious if you try to use them offensively. M2TW seems to portray pikemen as very cheap units (both recruitment & upkeep) that are a shadow of what they realistically should be. It works well for game balance though, since if pikemen performed the way they should, there wouldn't be much use for conventional infantry, and factions with strong pikemen would have a huge advantage over factions with weak/no pike units.
Meh, gimping pikemen so that basic swordsmen can beat them with ease is a little extreme in the other direction. Even peasants can beat them on a good day, especially when they do the elbow maneuver after you issue them an attack order.
Historically speaking, a disciplined pike wall could easily halt and roll over enemy infantry. In fact, I believe the pike was the dominant weapon on the battlefield until the musket started taking over.
Yes, that´s how the Swiss started it, a huge mass of men pushing forward, they literally trampled down the opposition.
This tactic was taken over and refined by the Landsknechts, who combined the "Push of the Pike" with shot support, the final result of this development being the Spanish Tercio.
Of course, that´s a bit hard to properly display in the game, since a Swiss or Landsknecht pike formation would have some 5,000 men in it, not just the hundred-odd the game engine provides. Losing a few men to gunfire out of 5000 is likely to have way less of an impact than losing the same amount out of one hundred.
pike master
12-31-2006, 20:20
if the game allowed to spread formation and then spearwall they would do well for infantry squares to support musketeers. and although i dont like to be a wikipedia freak they are pretty accurate about some things about pikes that coincide with earlier books i read in the library back in the 80s.
there does appear to be 3 phases of pike use 1) was the flemish and scot method of the pike schiltrom which is not depicted in the game but it sure would be nice.
2)the second phase is the use of the pike block or the use of pike columns which i believe was later copied by nations during the napoleanic era where waves of units attacked as one lost its cohesion the second and third and so forth waves would reinforce the attack with fresh and well organized formations.
this would be evident in the assault column methods deployed by napoleon to smash through the enemies center which was very successful until the british used their artillery better and were able to decimated the advancing columns.
of course thats where i got my idea with the column technique which i described earlier.but there is some evidence that the swiss may have used column of attack as well.in this battle description which i will give in full paragraph from "The Battle Book" by by bryan perrett.
the battle of sempach- the cantonal commanders of lucerne,uri,underwalden, adn schwytz vs. duke leopold iii of austria
leopold led his attack with a formation consisting of dismounted knights adn men at arms fighting as pikemen( note the word attack and pikemen).at first the austrians were successful,then held their own against the pikemen of successive cantons in turn(note the term of successive cantons).according to legend , the deadlock was broken by arnold of winkelreid, who deliberately impaled himself on several enemy spears, enabling the swiss halberdiers to hack their way into the austrian phalanx. once this had broken the remainder of the austrian army fled.
however i do notice that halberdiers were trying to break into the phalanx but were not able to until a man impaled himself on the spear tips. this would suggest that halberdiers had a very difficult time trying to make it through a spearwall but whether halberdiers were in seperate formation or in a rank or column of the swiss phalanx is a mystery since it seems historians do not agree on the matter however any incorporation of other weapons within a phalanx would weaken its greatest strength which is a well organized and formidable wall of pikes. incorporated units might disrupt the formation so it is unclear how the halberdiers were used.
but the point was that pikemen at that time seemed to be used in those two methods phalanx blocks and formations by column.
3)is the supporting role of pikemen supporting musketeers but even then they were used in the offensive role once the infantry engagement ensued and probably using attack by column with the first formation soaking up all the cannon and musket fire leaving the successive waves organized.
after the introduction of the bayonet the new soldier was passed down the same strategy when in the attack. even at bunker hill the british general refused his men to load their muskets when they advanced relying on the old pike assault( with bayoneted muskets of course).of course by that time even the smoothbores carried by the revolutionaries since not many actually had rifles was accurate enough to take out a great number of the slowly advancing british columns until they ran out of ammo.
anyways the column attack does work in the game but the block phalanx should work well too.
i am firmly in belief that the pike units in this game are severely bugged not just slightly. and they should seriously be addressed and it should have been taken care of in the first patch. it wouldnt have taken much effort at all since dopp was able to mod them himself to get them to work better. but since i dont mod units( i mod campaign stuff) im stuck finding ways to make them work.
Oleander Ardens
01-01-2007, 19:20
IIRC the Swiss could not break the Pikewall formed by armored knights because they just carried half-pikes and various polearms and wore little armor. It is indeed telling that, according to the writers a heroic deed was needed to find a way through the Pikewall.
Later they switched more and more to the long pike...
the_mango55
01-02-2007, 01:17
Well, pikes may need a boost, because you are right that militia pikemen can barely beat peasants...
But pikes barely cost more than peasants. The pikes are pretty well "balanced" right now, as they are not very expensive but they are also super cheap.
If you are going to make them the dominant force on the battlefield, they should be the most expensive force on the battlefield.
The Stranger
01-02-2007, 01:22
I don't see why they should... cheap doesnt equals bad, nor does expensive equals good... it is like that a lot of times... but not always... crossbowmen and longbowmen (dunno how cheap they are... not so i thought) were quite cheap... but could still dominate the field... under certain circumstances but that goes for everything...
Actually, since they are both melee units (there isn't that much tactical flexibility to give such as archers being given a meatshield), if peasants are cheaper but can break pikes by a headon assault, then something is likely wrong.
If nothing else, it's common sense. This and the fact that cav can often kill pikes makes them practically useless.
While perhaps acceptable for single player, expense -> power is really necessary for balance in multiplayer.
The Stranger
01-02-2007, 01:31
yeah... that's right... I already agreed with you and the others its just that good is expensive etc isnt always right... but a game isnt reality and some things should differ from reality... how annoying sometimes it may be...
Pikes may be cheap, but their upkeep cost is around the same as other melee units. Sword and Buckler men have the same stats as Dismounted Chivalric Knights but are cheaper to maintain. Not every unit (in campaign at least) must have a cost that matches its effectiveness.
Even if pikemen are really really cheap, I would rather increase their price than leave them weak and ineffectual. If their only advantage is their cheapness then nobody would build them at all. Peasants are cheap and rather weak too. That's why nobody uses them.
Raw recruitment cost is not the only factor to consider. For a 'tier 5' unit, even militia pikemen are not cheap at all, and elite pikemen can be even more expensive ('tier 6' or more). You can build dismounted feudal knights for half the investment.
pike master
01-02-2007, 09:02
sorry for the big document up there got carried away. most here agree that the pikemen need to be fixed and if it increases the cost to balance the game so be it. in the meantime i will be using my column attack method.
Goofball
01-03-2007, 01:20
Right, I think that's what CA intended with the game design. Pikemen lack armor, or the shields of classical hoplite units. And so even with the pointy sticks they're a poor choice one-on-one against a unit of dismounted knights, without support. They're designed for the late period, when you have armor-piercing gunpowder units in support.
Heavily armored enemy soldiers (mounted or foot) never get very far into my Tercio pikemen's front line, before they're shredded at close range with musket balls. Maybe that's why I've never noticed this problem with dropping pikes and using swords. But they gotta work together with the muskets. Crossbows and archers aren't that effective against heavily armored units before the gunpowder era, so my front line has to be something heavier like dismounted knights. I never build pikes as early as they're available.... I wait for the guns to back them up.
I've noticed several comments to this effect in this and other threads, and I want to make sure I understand. Are people putting their musketeers directly behind their pike units and having them fire directly forward, or are the musketeers off to the flank somewhere applying enfiladed fire to the attackers? If the former is the case, are the musket balls not decimating the friendly pikemen directly to their front?
I haven't gotten to the gunpowder point in my first game yet, so I'm curious...
The musketeers are mingled directly inside the pike formation, where they proceed to shoot the enemy protected by the pikes. Same with halberds and 2-handers. It's actually a form of exploit. This sort of double-stacking is popular in M2TW since unlike the original game there are no morale penalties for intermingled units. Other popular combinations include double-stacked spear or pike units, light and heavy cavalry charging as one unit, and melee troops stacked on top of missile troops to protect them from charges. Since pikemen are pretty lame in melee itself, you're counting on their spear wall killing enough of the chargers that the pikemen will win the following swordplay anyway.
Friendly fire from missile troops has been improved considerably since RTW (not including cannon and such, which are still pretty brainless). In fact, it may have swung a little too far in the opposite direction. Your entire line musketeers will not fire if even one of them stands a chance of hitting a friendly.
Meh, if pikemen require muskets to be effective AT ALL, then those poor Swiss and Flemish pikemen must have been real idiots to have fought that way without an effective corps of gunners. If all it took to defeat a pike formation was a bunch of guys with swords attacking frontally, then their French and German knightly enemies must have been rather stupid as well not to have simply dismounted and charged them on foot. Gamewise, you might as well give muskets the defensive stakes ability and save the production cost of making so many cool-looking pikemen (each pikemen has to have at least 3 models due to armor upgrades in M2TW). Not to mention my initial problem was not so much the effectiveness of pikemen per se, but the fact that they didn't fight with pikes more often.
I think that to balance out the increased formation-keeping of the sword confiscation, the pikemen attack speed needs to be lowered some to keep it in line with other units as right now they have a turbo-attack only slightly slower than that of JHI. When you add 2 ranks, long reach and an attack strength greater than swordsmen for the best pikes, they will chew up enemies very quickly. They're actually faster than halberds, which are in turn much faster than swords. Tweaking the skeletal compensation factor down to 0.73 might do the trick.
I find I can put my musketeers (Or crossbowmen even) directly behind my line troops and they'll fire through them easily without hurting any. Unless I do something idiotic like deploying my spear uphill from the muskets, it's never an issue.
I tried that, but when the enemy get within a certain distance they stop firing. The firing arc allows them to clear the pikemen's heads only at maximum range. A little slope will alleviate much of the difficulty. Against fast, hard-charging armies I always put my muskets behind the pikes on a slope.
Yeah but it's easy to find a slope to deploy on.
Marshal Murat
01-03-2007, 14:02
I can't find the FILE!?
Revenant
01-14-2007, 15:35
Dopp: Are you still working on pikemen and the way they interact with other units? I like your changes, but they are now very powerful if controlled by me and somewhat pathetic if controlled by AI, exactly as you posted before.
I share your opinion on their real world abilities, but I think the other late era infantry units should have their uses too.
@ Reverant, the other late era units do have a purpose, to be beaten by Pikes~;p.
No seriously. The ENTIRE POINT of pike units is that they are unbeatable from the front. You need to pin them in place and then hit them from the flanks. Do that and they simply disintigrate. Even a couple of peseant unit in the rear will do a LOT of damage.
Also, Pikes (along with bugged bill units), seem to have been priced acording to their bugged stats, not their unbugged ones. Most Fixed Bill and Pike units are worth 800-1000+ Florins but are a half to a thirn of that in reality.
I do understand what you saying, the AI is REALLY BAD at pulling off flank charges, but if it was any good at it it would easilly decimate pure pikemen infantry forces. Against a competent opponnent you HAVE to have decent Flank Guards and some medium cav to keep the enemy off your flanks/rear.
Revenant
01-14-2007, 15:57
I do understand what you saying, the AI is REALLY BAD at pulling off flank charges, but if it was any good at it it would easilly decimate pure pikemen infantry forces. Against a competent opponnent you HAVE to have decent Flank Guards and some medium cav to keep the enemy off your flanks/rear.
Not only that, but AI controlled pike units perform bad even when confronted from front. They just walk into my unit and are teared apart. If there was any mean to remove permanent AI Guard mode on on them, this is probably the culprit....
Yeah, Pikemen are pretty bad if they are in Guard Mode. You need em out of it for them to do any good and i have no idea how to keep them out of it when the AI is in control~:(. I'm sure somone can figure it out though.
Revenant
01-14-2007, 16:17
Yeah, Pikemen are pretty bad if they are in Guard Mode. You need em out of it for them to do any good and i have no idea how to keep them out of it when the AI is in control~:(. I'm sure somone can figure it out though.
And that is problem with halberdiers too (not JHI, they are not allowed spearwall formation and so they are not in guard mode).
And another thing is with pikemen massively underrated for autocalc.
Yeah, I noticed that too, I don't think Auto-Calc takes weapons attributes or Unit rules into account, just attack, defence, charge into account. Which is also why cav are so much better in reality than in auto-calc. allthough the sheild fix nueturs them a lot, especially HA who don't have the charge value to really threaten low level spears or good sheild infantry.
pike master
01-15-2007, 05:57
by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.
as far as the militia halberdiers go i cant figure out how they could even be worth 300 i havnt had much luck with them even with partial plate.
and like the bill units being cheap it kinda sounds suspicious to me but im a conspiracy paranoid freak so just ignore me. but i do think the people they consulted for military historical accuracy were not as competent as the ones they used for mtw1 and rome.
apparently those specialists didnt seem to think that pikes and bills were not anything special compared to dagger wielding archers and pitchfork packing berzerker peasants.
i would like to see the bill units equipped with full sized war bills like one i saw at a military museum that was 8 feet long with a two foot blade instead of those puny garden bills.
Zenicetus
01-15-2007, 07:35
by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.
Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.
Revenant
01-15-2007, 11:08
Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.
I tried them mostly in custom battles, some 1 vs. 1 , but others were complete combined armies. And AI just cannot handle them, try it yourself. AI´s pikes or spearwall halberds just wade into my lines and are slaughtered. I agree that pikes in my hands can perform admirably. (considering their price) even without Dopp´s modification.
by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.
AND
and like the bill units being cheap it kinda sounds suspicious to me but im a conspiracy paranoid freak so just ignore me.
Nope your not paranoid or anything. As I said, everything in the game was priced according to how it performed with the various bugs in place. Just take a look at DGK with and without all the bug fixes in place. They aren’t quite worth their price with no fixes, but they perform well for what you pay. Put the fixes in place and their is almost nothing that isn't a third the price that they CAN beat. They aren’t the only ones. If you apply the 2-Hander fix but not the shield fix, the bugged 2-Handers are totally OTT against everything. Apply the Shield Fix and it actually looks normal again.
Fixed Billmen actually fight inline with their stats, which are incredibly high for their price. Likewise, they are late era infantry, (as are almost all pikes), late era infantry elsewhere is MUCH more expensive than Bill and Pike units. So it's hardly surprising that working units of this type are massively under priced. They are meant to be equivalent to these late era expensive units elsewhere.
Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.
People are complaining on both. If you re-read Dopps first post in this thread, (i.e. the very first post in this thread), you'd understand what the problem is. Pikes won't stop all individuals in a charging infantry unit, some will get past the pikes on the charge, these then attack the pikes at close quarters, and this makes the pikes switch to swords, at which point they get massacred. They do seem to work for some people, but I often suspect that’s down to a combination of the quality of the Pikemen they are using. In these situations, switching to swords isn't quite as detrimental if the shield fix hasn't been applied as the defence and attack values are about the same as bugged shield units. With the fact that the bugged Shields make the units with them perform below their stats it's hardly surprising that good Pikemen can do OK in those situations. The other situation I’ve heard mentioned where they seem to do well is Pike and Musket combos, especially with intermingling.
These probably do well, (I’m not sure though), because the Muskets can cut down half the enemy infantry before they get close, which reduces the likelihood of anyone getting past the pikes, (those that get stopped as they charge in are the ones the Pikemen actually attack BTW), this means they don' switch to sword and once the few that do get through die you get a performance similar to fixed Pikemen. If the enemy outnumbers your army or you can't wipe half of him out before CC though, your in trouble because you can guarantee that they will switch to swords. Also human opponents could just double click behind a pike unit and force their way between the pikes, thus forcing them to turn swordsmen.
The result is that it's very hard to stop them turning into swordsmen and getting massacred. With the shield bug unfixed and high quality Pikemen, you can win with pikes in a sword fight. But your in for a world of hurt no matter what. What’s also instructive here is that your Pikemen aren’t actually fighting as Pikemen, but as swordsmen, which begs the question of why they have pikes at all.
Revenant
01-15-2007, 13:23
@Carl: I Read all thread indeed:) And I agree with Dopp´s opinions on how the pikemen formations should perform in real world.
But there is question how they are supposed to work in the game. A lots of people want paper/scissor/rock mechanism here.
I personally like pure historical approach, but that is only my opinion.
So the main issue with pikes/spearwall halberds for me, is their inability to be functional under AI. If they are supposed to be only excellent cavalry deterrent, i can live with it. If they will patch them to be the ultimate line infantry good vs. anything, I will like it, if they will be priced accordingly.
But If AI cannot handle them, there is not fun for me, no matter how am I able to handle them myself...
Just a thought, but couldn't one just simply increase the mass of pike units?
If I recall correctly pikemen are around a mass of 1.0, with some of the more elite pike units around 1.2. If this value was significantly increased wouldn't this prevent their formations from being so easily disrupted??
It's not formation disruption thats the problem. it's enemy uinits getting past the pikes. So long as they have a sword they pull it out and use it if that happens.
But If AI cannot handle them, there is not fun for me, no matter how am I able to handle them myself...
Thats fine, i think I might look into this actually as I have an idea on getting them out of Guard Mode at the start.
There is a command in the EDU for disabling skirmish ("start_not_skirmishing"), so presumably there's hopefully one for disabling guard mode? Possibly "start_not_guard" or "start_not_guardmode" or "start_not_guard _mode"??
Revenant
01-15-2007, 18:40
There is a command in the EDU for disabling skirmish ("start_not_skirmishing"), so presumably there's hopefully one for disabling guard mode? Possibly "start_not_guard" or "start_not_guardmode" or "start_not_guard _mode"??
It would be nice solution. I tried some commands, but to no effect. Maybe somebody else would have more luck.
pike master
01-15-2007, 19:33
you must understand that when units get past the spear wall they turn to swords is not exactly as it should be expected. if a swordsmen or two make it through a shield wall it would be expected for a few pikemen to turn to swords to stop them but not the whole formation, which is the problem that they are all turning to swords and even do so even if the enemy hasnt even made it through the spearwall. take note that these things do not happen everytime but they happen enough that you have to babysit them.
also if all units kept using their pikes even for the brave superhuman fanatics who manage to duck and dodge their way through the pikes to close you have to remember the rest of his unit is getting butchered who never made through so he looks back and sees his unit fleeing and of course even if he keeps fighting the slow advance of the pike formation will just walk over top of him and crush him under a host of feet.
so really even if a few units make it through and have their way the rest of the soldiers in the formation are still having a hard time if the spearwall works properly and is demonstrated in dopps fix where they have no close in defence but if they stick to pikes they can still win despite a handful of enemy soldiers making it though the spearwall.
however i still think the cheapness of the units is an indicator of what ca expected of their performance which is contrary to the way they are represented in mtw1 and rome. if they are to be used as musket support then they should be allowed to spread formation with spearwall so they can be more easily integratedwith missile units instead of masking some of their fire and on occasion muskets and arqs seem to slowly move back as they rotate ranks to fire which eventually carries them behind the pike was so if they are spread this wont be as much of a problem.
under the system i use i have solved the issuewithout a mod but it shouldnt have had to come to that. in rome they had it perfected because lesser pike and hoplite formations could be compromised by roman legionares while the more elite formation held together better. this goes the same with schiltroms in barbarian invasion who were actually a force to be reckoned with unlike in this game so it seems in some ways ca has actually taken a step backwards.
i often times used pikemen in rome in spread formation with phalanx formation on to act as a base from which my archers could safely fire from.
however i still think the cheapness of the units is an indicator of what ca expected of their performance which is contrary to the way they are represented in mtw1 and rome.
I personally think the price is down to how ineffective they are, not how they should perform in CA's eyes. i.e. they where priced according to their effectiveness. Look at unbugged/fixed units that come along at the same time, they are ALL more powerful and more expensive than pikes. Since in some factions the Pikes are the ONLY infantry unit that late in the game, it's not as if theirs any good reason for them not to be as good. Also, fixed Sword and Shield units can really hurt Fixed Pikes as they can force their way into the formation. They still suffer losses, and the late Scottish Pikes still beat anything you throw at them. But that’s Ok really IMHO.
Goofball
01-16-2007, 20:07
Okay, I've read the entire thread and would like to implement dopp's fix. But which units need it? Obviously, any unit with the word "pike" in its title will need it, but are there any other units that are pike armed? What about billmen, are they using pikes or halberds?
Which brings me to another question. I have installed the 2-handed fix. Does this fix halberds (for that matter, were halberds ever broken to begin with?)?
I'm so confused...
Halberds wern't broken. It's the Halberd animation thats normally used to fix the bugged 2-Hander. if the unit has a Pike it will have a Primiary Weapon with the words "Long_Pike" in it's attribute section. You need to remove the secondory weapon by copying the secondery weapon of Fuedal knights in over the top of the Pike armed units.
Just don't do this to Voulgiers, Voulgier militia, Swiss Guard or Obouthours. They have the Long_Pike attribute but are special cases.
Goofball
01-16-2007, 20:17
Halberds wern't broken. It's the Halberd animation thats normally used to fix the bugged 2-Hander. if the unit has a Pike it will have a Primiary Weapon with the words "Long_Pike" in it's attribute section. You need to remove the secondory weapon by copying the secondery weapon of Fuedal knights in over the top of the Pike armed units.
Just don't do this to Voulgiers, Voulgier militia, Swiss Guard or Obouthours. They have the Long_Pike attribute but are special cases.
Thanks Carl. And I don't know if it has been said before, but thanks for just about all of your posts in the Citadel. You have been very helpful.
:bow:
And I don't know if it has been said before, but thanks for just about all of your posts in the Citadel. You have been very helpful.
I doubt it considering how hot headed I can be, especially when debating with Musashi:smash:. The thanks is appreciated and i'm glad that I seem to have been helpful as well as hot headed, so your welcome~:).
I doubt it considering how hot headed I can be, especially when debating with Musashi:smash:.
That's ok Carl, I'm used to you from over on the Relic boards ;)
ROFLOL, whats your username over on their anyway then?
p.s. I still should try to calm down a bit, though. I just don't seemt o do calm very well tough~:(.
LOL~;p. Thought you seemed familiar.
Heh, I'm nicer here, because I don't have senior member status like over there, so I can't flame with impunity ;)
LOL:smash:. Actually I didn't man nastiness. Just somthing about your style.
Take it I was easy to spot, (the name was probably a clue~;p).
Be glad you never met me during my days on the Robot wars foorums, I was a right arse back then.
Yes, the name was indeed a clue. Plus you were posting in the M2TW thread over there and mentioned you were posting here. And you keep talking about DoW and HW over here. So... ;)
I'm working on implementing the shield fix to my units file and testing the results. Please note that so far pikemen afflicted by the swordsmen syndrome are able to do okay against real swordsmen because the bugged shields really gimp the swordsmen. Once that is fixed the pikemen will be massacred every time they switch to swords.
Ironically, the shield fix has made dedicated 'linebreaker' infantry with 2-handers much weaker than the older sword and board infantry against the 'fixed' pikemen. Their plate armor gives nowhere near enough armor to cover the loss of 6 points of shield bonus and they are thus unable to batter their way past the pikes.
Halberds do not require fixing. The way it works for them is that the 'primary' weapon with the long_pike attribute is the halberd being used as a pike with stabbing animations. The 'secondary' weapon is the halberd being used with hacking animations to chop people up. The same graphic is used and the transition between the two is seamless. I suspect that the weapon-switching code was changed to facilitate halberds being used in this way, to the detriment of the pikemen who now also switch over to swords after receiving the charge.
Ironically, the shield fix has made dedicated 'linebreaker' infantry with 2-handers much weaker than the older sword and board infantry against the 'fixed' pikemen. Their plate armor gives nowhere near enough armor to cover the loss of 6 points of shield bonus and they are thus unable to batter their way past the pikes.
I've noticed this too. Unless you have more than about 20 defence, you just can't do enough damage to fixed Pikes. Mind you it does mean some things can beat them head on now, if at great cost.
Kraggenmor
01-17-2007, 21:52
"No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!
I can't believe this thread went to 5 pages and no one mentioned "Pokemen" or "Armored Pokemen."
IvarrWolfsong
01-17-2007, 21:58
Personally, I'd rather have CA put aside any new frills they hinted at being in the new patch and have them iron out all these foolish mistakes.
Halberds are faster than swords??? Shields give you less protection??? 2h can't attack horsemen at all??? Heavy Crossbows fire faster than Longbows??? Every pikemen drops their pike the second any one of their unit needs to melee??
This isn't just historically wrong but it goes against everyday common sense!
Balancing units against broken units just creates more broken units that non-broken units will have to be balanced against. The final result is that everything is broken...
Crossbows absolutely DO NOT fire faster than longbows or any other archer unit. They're slower than archers. People are complaining that they're not enough slower.
But anyone claiming they're faster is just plain lying.
Yeah, Pikemen are pretty bad if they are in Guard Mode. You need em out of it for them to do any good and i have no idea how to keep them out of it when the AI is in control~:(. I'm sure somone can figure it out though.
Has anyone figured out how to make the AI any good with "fixed" pikes? I'd love to use this fix, but if it's only the human that benefits then it's maybe not worth it... :(
pike master
01-19-2007, 23:04
i agree that the default formations should be the best formation that unit can use.
i was fighting knights with zweihanders and they slaughtered the knights (mounted ) so some of the two handed units are taking down cavalry same with halberdiers but dont know about the others though.
Halberdiers are supposed to take down cavalry.
Halberds are spears with AP, basically. In original MTW they had an attack of 1 or something and killed nothing, but had heavy armor. In M2TW, they have decent attack values, but lack armor. Strange reversal here.
antisocialmunky
01-20-2007, 05:19
Yeah, the vanilla ones, the best use for the special ones(Swiss and English ones) was to flank with them and hack the horsies to bits. They were intended to be swords that kill horses and armour and could get trampled by horses because they didnt' brace. I dunno if that stayed the same in M2:TW
Depends on faction. The Catholic ones can brace (and do it better than pikes). The Muslim and Orthodox ones can't, but are usually better fighters in melee (more JHI for me, thanks).
pike master
01-20-2007, 08:18
i know that halberdiers are supposed to be good against horses and armor what i was saying was that i read something somewhere that the two handed bug was keeping units from defeating cavalry. are all two handed units bugged or just certian ones?
Just certain ones. Normal halberds are fine.
So, is it generally viewed that "fixing" pikes is better than leaving them alone? No doubt the answer is yes from the perspective of the human, but can the same be said for AI pike units?
Well I'd personally much rather have them at least trying to poke whatever comes their way. Most of the pikes in the game make terrible swordsmen, whoever is controlling them, so overall I'd just rather not see them try that. As it's really the only difference the change makes that I can see (i.e. the AI doesn't use them differently than it normally would, which in both cases is worse than a human does) I don't see any reason not to from the AI perspective.
Yeah I've just had an opportunity to test and it's definitely better all round, AI included. Previously, the AI would just try to walk through my units and then draw their swords... Now that they're fixed however, they do seem rather tough for the cheap price. Maybe a slight stat reduction is in order?
I just had a thought. Instead of removing the second attack, what happens if you make the secondary attack also pike based, i.e. similar to the first and indeed similar to how the halberd units work? Does it work?
pike master
01-20-2007, 21:01
no reason to disbelieve that a pikemen might use a pike to slap someone sideways by swinging it.
@Jambo: No, it doesn't work. The sword is coded in the model files. You'd have to edit the weapon attachments to change it, and I'm not up to that sort of editing.
The AI takes a while to wake unit and realize it's being attacked, but when it does it will poke properly. A lot of my testing has been done on custom maps where the AI starts marching towards you almost immediately. In campaign the AI is usually a lot more defensive unless it has clear superiority of numbers or it has no other choice but to melee, so you are more likely to see pikes used 'properly'.
However, nothing would stop you from making them better swordsmen by buffing their secondary stats.
I wanted to see poking and stabbing, not swordplay. Improving their combat effectiveness was not my real aim. A line of pikes pushing forward while the Spanish battle music plays has to be one of the best Total War experiences ever. I wanted to see it last longer than 3 seconds after initial contact.
Agreed. The guys have huge sticks that give them an advantage in combat for a reason. Besides, where the heck do they put them while they have swords out??? If I wanted them to be swordsmen, I'd have recruited a sword unit instead of a pike unit. They should do what pikemen are supposed to.
pike master
01-22-2007, 04:47
im personally trying to figure out what a guy is expected to do once he makes through a spear wall by himself while his buddies are getting butchered. if it is a moving pike block he will more than likely get pushed off his feet and trodden over and if he does the superman maneuvre of hitting the ground and rolling under the pikes to slash at some shins i figure the same thing would happen.
an aerial attack would also be out of the question.
if pikes are just defensive why dont they just stick em in the ground like stakes instead of hold them.
Was anything improved in the second patch regarding any of the issues raised here? I seem to recall reading that the 'bout-face issue with pikemen had been addressed, but was there anything done about formation cohesion or drawing swords unnecessarily?
pike master
06-10-2007, 23:12
they werent touched at all from what ive seen.
Ok, thanks. Good thing that the Problem Fixer mod addressed it then.
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