Thunder Bombers

[Zaxxon]

I don't know about you, but this unit seems a little hokie to me. I've never even heard of such a unit. I'm wondering if Creative Assembly is trying appease the 13 year old Clone & Conqure fans by trying to give them a little pyrotehcnics. Also, the battlefield effectiveness of this unit seems a bit limited. Does anyone know if the Mongols ever deployed such a unit? It's pretty funny that everyone has talked about the historical accuracy of the battlefield Ninja and not brought up the Thunder Bombers. Just my 2 cents.

[Kurando]

I'm not a nay-sayer, and I'm not a Prophet of Doom, but that having been said: I'm not a lap-dog for the developers either. So for the record: I think Thunder Bombers are a very poor conceptual addition to STW.

Mind you, I haven't tried playing with them in a game yet; so, whether they add or subtract from gameplay another matter + there are only a few of us here who are official beta-testers; so if possible the rest of us should reserve judgement until we actually try using these new units in a real setting.

[CaPeFeAr]

my guess is that they will be a stronger unit then our community is prepaired for. if used properly this one unit could possibley wipe out multiple units on the field. IMHO some rearangment in the armies we currently bring to online play, with the emphisis on bait units, will be needed to counteract this potentialy devestating unit...a big question is wether the friendly fire problems with the archers/guns will be a problem with the tb...BTW is tb the new initals we will use for this unit? ie.wm,nd,..

[Irving]

i agree with you all.

what is going to be the range of these things? looks like you won't be able to have other troops unless you want some unfortunate accident to happen

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[clockwork_orange]

The Mongols did use explosives similar to grenades in their campaigns against Japan. This is just Creative Assembly's way of interpreting how they did it.

[solypsist]

Yes. There are several mentions of them in Turbulls' books on samurai, and while the actual game men seem to function slightly differently from what is pictured in book-form drawings and illustrations, it was historically accurate (but is still, to me, a bit cheesy)

[henryh]

Any of you guys every play myth by bungie, they had these little dwarves who chucked explosives, a botched throw could end in a lot of friendly casualities. Throwing the bombs uphill was a bad move due to the fact the bombs could roll back down again! Also they could go out and just lie on the ground a new bomb dropped in the vicinity would cause the extinguished one to scatter and explode! What about a bridge fight with bombers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Mega Carnage! Like the dwarves in myth they probably have the same vulnerabilities weak melee and weak missle resistance.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The TBs are without doubt historical: as Solypsist-sama said, a bit cheesy, and a bit Myth/AoE -like, but historical nevertheless. I can understand why some people don't like them. (Kurando-sama, you had 666 posts when I read this... Prophet of Doom, he, he... *gakh* http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif ). Anyway, here's a quote from the original TB whining thread: Quote Hey, in case you haven't noticed, I found this pearl at the Community Site message boards.
Posted by Jimu-sama (a typo of Jimmu? Do we care? ):

"Just to clear your doubts
"The Thunder bomb's name came from the chinese name of Zhen Tian Lei which means "Thunder roaring bomb that shakes the heaven". It was first invented by the chinese and was use agst the mongols when the mongols invaded Southern Song, it gave the mongols a deep impression, deep enough for them to employ it in battle agst the Samurais too.
"The Koreans got a version of their own Thunder bomb modified from the Chinese original, though not very sure which version was actually going to be use in the game,from the screenshot of the unit, i can tell you thr Thunder bomber will be another Korean or it will be the Chinese. Chinese axuillaries were use too during the invasion of Japan thus a big possibility.

"The thunder bombs have a deafening explosions when it hit the target, scattering the porcelain bits that was contained inside into any unfortunate souls nearby resulting in death or injury. According to some accounts, many samurais were badly burnt when they got caught in the blast.Thus i wont think any of you will want to risk facing this unit in the game as your men will be turning tail once the bombs from heaven lands...."[/QUOTE]As for the TBs' tactical utility, they will really make a tightly packed mass of men a dangerous place to be. With the range I assume them to have, archers (especially CA) will be a good proposition against them, and on the offence they will probably suffer from the same problems as guns: you have to deploy them, make sure the enemy can't attack them and then wait for them to have an effect. A hill camper with sandâ bomâs could be hard to dislodge, but who would be dull enough to camp with a Mongol army? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

CapeFear-san, for acronyms, check this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000130.html). They're not official of course, but most of them are pretty obvious. We'll see what names people will get used to using. (On second thought, I don't think Kensai need an acronym.)

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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 03-28-2001).]

(So you can't have double quotes, I always wanted to quote people quoting other people quoting yet more people... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif )

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Nelson]

"Cheesy" is the word all right.

The potential problem is one of scale and frequency. The Mongols used explosives on rare occasions and in special circumstances. IF thunder bombers can remain rare and special without being overly destructive, IMO they MIGHT be OK.

But at this point if they disappeared I would't miss them! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[henryh]

I like the idea of TBs if they are backed up historically all the better!

[Laertes]

Have CA or EA described the organizational size -- for instance, whether or not TBs will be just another 'standard' unit size, such as 120 in a squad? If they're throwing explosives a short distance, there's probably a point of diminishing returns, and maybe a point where a larger unit is *worse* (both because of increased FF losses plus the cost of training/maintaining more TBs than you really are using to the fullest)?

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He is justly served; It is a poison temper'd by himself.

[Nelson]

I think I saw where they are 20 to 40 man units.

[BanzaiZAP]

I'm guessing (and its just a guess) that the TB will be one of the reduced unit sizes, like the BN, and from what the interviews said, they will indeed have poor range, accuracy and armor. This does indeed seem to indicate that they will be lame in melee combat, and have a good chance of doing major friendly-fire casualties. They will, however, freak out attacking units in a similar way to muskets, and will be one of the weapons of choice for bridge battles! I just wonder about the cost/availability. Like Nelson, I think it would keep things better balanced to limit the amount of these guys. Of course, there's no way to limit units in multiplayer games, but in the campaign they should be a very special unit, rather than a mass-produced one like skirmishers.

-- B)

[Yoshitsune]

The 'unit tour' description of TBs says; "The weapons are inaccurate and unreliable so they operate in very small units to reduce the consequences of accidents."

As long as they appear rarely, I applaud the addition of this unit even though it appears outlandish and unlikely. A famous portion of the Mongol Invasion scroll (painted shortly after the events took place) shows a bomb exploding in front of a samurai horse archer. Turnbull's books and articles speculate that they may have been thrown by a primitive, short-range trebuchet propelled by a bunch of guys pulling on ropes rather than the familiar counterweight but the sling-shot idea is equally plausible as the exact details are unknown.

I personally think the Mongol forces in the expansion look well thought out though a Chinese x-bow unit might have been welcome. Its the Japanese forces I have a problem with...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Ho, Yoshitsune-san, you beat me to it by approximately five seconds! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Indeed, the Community Site (http://www.totalwar.com/community/index.htm)'s TB tour page (http://www.totalwar.com/community/newunits5.htm) confirms it: Small units it is, probably the same 1/3 size we saw in the BNinjas. Note also that the phrase "The resulting explosion causes panic and confusion, as well as death and injury" means there will be a morale effect comparable to guns - very appropriate, IMO. They may be expensive (although not obtainable only through special events - if some unit would be, it'd have been the Kensai), or they may not be - it all depends on how effective the explosions are.

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"Si j'étais né en 17 à Leidenstadt / Sur les ruines d'un champ de bataille / Aurais-je été meilleur ou pire que ces gens / Si j'avais été Allemand?"
- Jean-Jacques Goldman: Né en 17 à Leidenstadt

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 03-28-2001).]