No stone wall for barbarians?

[Arbaces]

Is it just me an old drunkard or the Getai can't build stone walls? :inquisitive: Anyway, there were a couple of barbarian strongholds made of stone, esspecially those of the Getai (including Sarmiszegethusa, and many others). But it's hidden or something, right?

Arbaces.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There was a thread about this in the TWC. The team said that barbarians don't get stone walls not because they didn't, but because they didn't get walls like the ones available in RTW. (ie tall, straight, walls you can walk on, with big square towers) Too bad there isn't someone out there with 3d building modelling skill that wants to help.

I heard a rumor barbarians would get walls in the future, but I will let the team adress that...

[Zastrow]

I agree with TA, with the current models for walls, I'd rather see them not have them than have them.

[-Praetor-]

I agree with TA, with the current models for walls, I'd rather see them not have them than have them.

http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/6239/2001139789008762455_rs.jpg

From: http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17477 , Garner`s AAR. :rolleyes:

More Pics:

https://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2008/walldamadgedwx2.jpg
https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2838/comeoninxx5.jpg

From: http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=17065&view=findpost&p=196957

May I suggest the EB team to contact the Chivalry: Total War team? :medievalcheers:

Cheers!!!:2thumbsup:

PS: Sorry for messing up the margins and the screen configuration, the pics are a bit large... but I think it`s for a good cause. :grin:

[Kull]

We do have plans for culturally consistent Barbarian Stone Walls in the future, and may very well include the vanilla ones as an interim solution until the revised ones are ready.

k_raso - Which of the base level walls was modified to achieve the ones you show there? From the look of them (i.e. medium height, no towers) I'd guess it was the second level wooden wall? Assuming that's true, even without towers the game will still think they are there and just shoot arrows at you from the middle of the wall. Is that true too, or was it somehow resolved?

[-Praetor-]

k_raso - Which of the base level walls was modified to achieve the ones you show there? From the look of them (i.e. medium height, no towers) I'd guess it was the second level wooden wall?

Okey, the level walls for the mod are the following:


Motte & Bailey
The first fortified constructions were simple wooden towers, usualy placed on a hill. Such a tower was called a "motte", and often a small village was built around it, including the house of the local landlord.
To offer further protection , a pallisade wall was constructed around this small village, called a "bailey". These primitive castles would often be improved and eventually evolved into magnificent fortifications.


https://img323.imageshack.us/img323/5120/motte3os.jpg


Donjon
Over time the wooden motte was often replaced by a stone variant, called a "donjon". These were tiny castles on there own with a small food and weapon supply stored inside, allowing them to endure sieges for a couple of weeks. Enough to protect the landlord, his bodyguard and a few lucky peasant families against raiders and bandits.

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9195/donjon5pk.jpg


Keep & Castle
The keep is a large stone construction, made out of several towers connected to a solid building. It towers high over the rest of the castle and offers an easily defendable place, allowing a small garrison to withstand attackers for a long time. Around the keep large stone walls and towers are constructed, providing the first line of defence. These walls can be manned with archers and infantry, and require special siege equipment to overcome.

https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2520/castle8vs.jpg


So, I think you`re right, they modded the first 3 wall levels, respectively (already shown), and also eliminated Large and Epic walls.



Assuming that's true, even without towers the game will still think they are there and just shoot arrows at you from the middle of the wall. Is that true too, or was it somehow resolved?

Well, about the arrows, I think it`s better explained in this post:




Quick question: Will the mottes, donjons, and keeps fire arrow like in MTW or is that limited to the towers on the wall(assuming they fire arrows)?
all auto fire has been removed (except for gates because that appears to be hardcoded), the reasons being:
-sieges are more fair in MP: no unlimited ammo ghostarchers for the defenders
-the AI has a better chance taking a settlement: they like to idle around the walls, but atleast they don't get shot to pieces by ghostarchers anymore
-I never liked the ghostarchers that could be converted to the attackers side by just shaking their hands (= passing through a tower)

Post from Adherbal Chivalry Total War Developer. ( http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12323&st=0# )

So, if they did it, it`s certainly doable. :grin:

Hope it`s useful!!!!

Cheers!!!!!!

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

My question is, is it either all walls fire arrows / all walls don't fire arrows? Or can you set small wall not to fire arrows and still have stone masondry wall fire arrows?

[Caratacos]

I remember reading about a Gallic tribe who were taken under siege by the Romans. They sat at their walls laughing and calling them short little dwarfs etc. But the Romans were busy building a siege tower. when it was complete the Gauls (can't remember who exactly) were so awed by the tower itself that they gave up (thinking that some powerful god must be on the Roman side).

anyways what exactly would stone walls be like for the barbarians if they had no archer towers and could not be walked on (have units on them)? would they just be harder to bust through? seems like a lot of effort for something not much different to the 2nd level wooden wall. Don't get me wrong i'd love to see Gauls with walls (hehe) --but not if it is going to delay 1.0 too much.

But that's just one mans opinion anyway.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

In my opinion there should be pallisades and wooden walls then the "stone wall" should be short wall made out of stone (rather than stone blocks). It should probably be able to be walked on, but not have towers (at least many towers, and be pretty easy to knock down (but not with rams). Then the "large stone walls" should have the strat and battle appearance (and stats) of "stone walls" and the "epic stone wall" have the appear and stats of the "large stone wall". This should be easy to do, with a building modeler. I think the team has had some sort of idea like this for years now.

[Ludens]

We do have plans for culturally consistent Barbarian Stone Walls in the future, and may very well include the vanilla ones as an interim solution until the revised ones are ready.
How about the Oppidia wall that Psycho V showed some time ago?

[Moros]

I remember reading about a Gallic tribe who were taken under siege by the Romans. They sat at their walls laughing and calling them short little dwarfs etc. But the Romans were busy building a siege tower. when it was complete the Gauls (can't remember who exactly) were so awed by the tower itself that they gave up (thinking that some powerful god must be on the Roman side).

Yup Attuatuci, right? from de bello gallico? Had to translate that text in school once.

[Arbaces]

You guys really belive in what you read in dbg? WTH... it was written by Caesar himself... He might have said a lot of truths but small facts like this were undoubtely exagerrated to show "the greatness of Rome".


Boru

[Caratacos]

You guys really belive in what you read in dbg? WTH... it was written by Caesar himself... He might have said a lot of truths but small facts like this were undoubtely exagerrated to show "the greatness of Rome".



Said i remember reading it... didn't say i that i believed it was fact :book: . Then again stranger things have happened, no?

Anyway my point, if anything, was that the gauls had walls that required siege towers to overcome.

[Kull]

How about the Oppidia wall that Psycho V showed some time ago?

That's pretty much it. But there are HUGE issues associated with making even surface changes to walls, much less changing their dimensions and the way they interact with units and siege engines, etc.

As an example, you not only have to change the walls and towers, but you have to alter all the related graphics, such as those which show the impact of incremental destruction. It's a big job.

[Ludens]

That's pretty much it. But there are HUGE issues associated with making even surface changes to walls, much less changing their dimensions and the way they interact with units and siege engines, etc.
Right, that explains why it hasn't been implemented yet. Thanks for the information. With the depature of Shifty, is there still anyone working on this?

[Namenlos]

There was a thread about this in the TWC. The team said that barbarians don't get stone walls not because they didn't, but because they didn't get walls like the ones available in RTW. (ie tall, straight, walls you can walk on, with big square towers) Too bad there isn't someone out there with 3d building modelling skill that wants to help.

I heard a rumor barbarians would get walls in the future, but I will let the team adress that...

There seems to be a misunderstanding - perhaps I'm not able to grasp the main line of reasoning.

Yes, the "murus gallicus" isn't a "straight" wall (in fact, it shows some striking similarities to the walls of Vauban's fortresses), but you can walk on it and it features towers. The following pictures showing models of the murus gallicus were taken during my visit to the Bibracte museum (Mont Beuvray).

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/thumbs/1ror-6.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1ror-6-jpg.html)

At least there are several famous incidents where Gallic or Celto-Iberian "oppida" gave the siege trains of the more advanced nations quite some headaches (Saguntum, Numantia, Avaricum, Gergovia, Alesia, Uxellodunum).

In consequence - we are all only approximations to ideals - I would rather prefer the "Barbarian" cultures to build the standard walls in order to reflect their capabilities to withstand long lasting sieges.

For an illustration, what kind of effort was needed to overcome these defenses please refer to this famous Connolly painting (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.antiqvitas.it/approfondimenti/avaricum.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.antiqvitas.it/approfondimenti/assedio.3.a.htm&h=234&w=400&sz=16&hl=de&start=37&tbnid=05xxDQnYC2WjDM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Davaricum%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN):

Regards - PTB

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There seems to be a misunderstanding - perhaps I'm not able to grasp the main line of reasoning.

Yes, the "murus gallicus" isn't a "straight" wall (in fact, it shows some striking similarities to the walls of Vauban's fortresses), but you can walk on it and it features towers. The following pictures showing models of the murus gallicus were taken during my visit to the Bibracte museum (Mont Beuvray).

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/thumbs/1ror-6.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/1ror-6-jpg.html)

At least there are several famous incidents where Gallic or Celto-Iberian "oppida" gave the siege trains of the more advanced nations quite some headaches (Saguntum, Numantia, Avaricum, Gergovia, Alesia, Uxellodunum).

In consequence - we are all only approximations to ideals - I would rather prefer the "Barbarian" cultures to build the standard walls in order to reflect their capabilities to withstand long lasting sieges.

For an illustration, what kind of effort was needed to overcome these defenses please refer to this famous Connolly painting (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.antiqvitas.it/approfondimenti/avaricum.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.antiqvitas.it/approfondimenti/assedio.3.a.htm&h=234&w=400&sz=16&hl=de&start=37&tbnid=05xxDQnYC2WjDM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Davaricum%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN):

Regards - PTB

True. But those are far from the tall cut stone wall that RTW give us.

[Zaknafien]

Sagunto hardly counts, it was Greek. But all your other examples are valid--we understand the intricacy of Celtic and Iberian hill-forts, and oppida are being worked on. But the above poster is right, theyre far from the vanilla stone walls RTW gave us.

[Namenlos]

Sagunto hardly counts, it was Greek. But all your other examples are valid--we understand the intricacy of Celtic and Iberian hill-forts, and oppida are being worked on. But the above poster is right, theyre far from the vanilla stone walls RTW gave us.

Marcus Aurelius A. and Zaknafien,

thanks for your replies.

As a sidenote: Saguntum most likely wasn't Greek. But based on recent literature, it is possible to develop two interpretations, why some ancient sources claim Saguntum to be a "Greek city" (in particular: Appian).

a) the "benevolent variant": Saguntum - feeling threatened by the Carthagian expansion in Spain - entered an alliance with Massilia (its major trade partner). This brought no great relief, so they sought help from the only power, that already had proven its ability to contain Carthage's dreams of power: Rome. So Appian simply mistook an alliance with a Greek city for
being Greek...

b) the "malicious variant": Because Rome - according to the Ebro-Treaty - had no right to infere, they invented in the aftermath of the Punic wars motives that could justify their actions ("bellum iustum" once again): In particular they forged the content of the Ebro-Treaty claiming it already had included a special "Saguntum"-clause. Furthermore, they invented the "Greek city" Saguntum, so the intervention based on the "the friend of my friend is my friend" reasoning could be applied.

Best readings for the "malicious variant":

a) Jakob Seibert: Hannibal, Darmstadt 1993.

Here a quote taken from page 45:

"Auch Appian überlieferte, als Grenze des karthagischen Bereichs sei der Ebro festgelegt und den Römern verboten worden, Krieg gegen Völker jenseits des Ebro zu führen, die Untertanen der Karthager waren. Den Karthagern sei untersagt worden, den Ebro in kriegerischer Absicht zu überschreiten [Annotation: This Hasdrubal really must have been a Bargaining-Dummkopf!]. Auch über Sagunt soll eine Klause vereinbart worden sein. Die Saguntiner - Appian bzw. seine Vorlage hatte die irrige Vorstellung, sie seien Griechen - und die anderen Griechen sollten autonom und frei sein.

b) Klaus Zimmermann: Rom und Karthago, Darmstadt 2005

Regards, PTB

[Zaknafien]

Um, Sagunto was colonized by Hellenic peoples in the pre-Punic colonization days, although certainly there was a large native Iberian population as well. There are ruins from a 5th century temple of Diana in the ruins of Satunto today. Obviously the original city was founded by Celto-Iberians but by the time of your example it was a decidedly Greek city in influence.

[Namenlos]

Um, Sagunto was colonized by Hellenic peoples in the pre-Punic colonization days, although certainly there was a large native Iberian population as well. There are ruins from a 5th century temple of Diana in the ruins of Satunto today. Obviously the original city was founded by Celto-Iberians but by the time of your example it was a decidedly Greek city in influence.

Now I'm deeply impressed - your knowledge even surpasses that of the Punic Wars specialists?

Bowing in respect - PTB


PS: Zaknafien, sorry for being so insistant, but I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I do.

What do you think of the following argumentation?

If Saguntum was in fact dominated by Greek culture, we should be able to find corresponding signals in its social subsystems - in particular in its economic system - right?

So perhaps now you ask: Why is a temple not enough? Because that would be the same to the following scenario: In the year 3000 the excavators find the remnants of a mosque in Paris or Berlin dating from our times. Thus they conclude that the French / German society of the year 2000 was Islam-dominated.

Central Proposition: One strong indicator for the cultural influence / selfimage of a society are the coins minted by the corresponding society.

So now have a look at the following link:

http://cgi.ebay.es/MONEDA-DE-ARSE-SAGUNTUM_W0QQitemZ220048343579QQihZ012QQcategoryZ43876QQcmdZViewItem

Please compare this coin with the selection found under:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sg/i.html

So what's the result?

The Arse-Saguntum-coin (featuring a dolfin and a shell) shows striking similarities to Celtic coins, but def. not to coins coming from any part of the Greek world.

Conclusion: Most likely, Saguntum was a Celtic-Iberian city. :sweatdrop: :balloon2:


Regards, PTB

[Sarcasm]

Um, Sagunto was colonized by Hellenic peoples in the pre-Punic colonization days, although certainly there was a large native Iberian population as well. There are ruins from a 5th century temple of Diana in the ruins of Satunto today. Obviously the original city was founded by Celto-Iberians but by the time of your example it was a decidedly Greek city in influence.

The hellenic settlement is not pre-punic. The first arqueological records point to the first contacts dating to the 9th century, though mythology points to the 10th century or so.

There are remnants there of human occupation from the Neolithic Age, but the fortified town that Hannibal razed was a Celtiberian oppidium from the 5th century, which had recieved Greek influences from the Massiliote emporia and probably received full settlement sometime during the second half of the century. By the time Hannibal was sieging it it had become what was probably a twin town much like Emporion in the north, with seperate quarters for the Greek and Iberian populations, warfs by the river Pallantia, and a very fortified acropolis [in the Iberian style] on the hill.

There are also finds of very mediterranean styled houses, but it is unclear if they're from pre or post roman occupation in the vicinity, that appear to be in the middle of estates. Also, the probable economic prevalance of the Hellenic [and hellenized] population led to ancient authors to refer to it as a Greek town. They did however mint their own coins using the Iberian/Celtiberian name of Arsé, so we must assume that at least the town was run by a native nobility.

It took Hannibal 8 months, with a full siege train and a complete circunvallation, to breach the walls and overrun the last defenders. I think that speaks a lot about the quality of Iberian fortified settlements.

On the height of the walls, RTW misrepresents walls as a whole, period. The current standard stone walls would be higher than, for example, Athens great walls which were 9m in height up to the top of the crenelations....

https://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8104/wallyl1.jpg

Assuming one of those guys is 1,80m high the wall wouldn't be higher than 5 of those guys, and it clearly is. In fact it's pratically as high as 9 of them, almost the double.

[Zaknafien]

I basically agree with Sarcasm, that Sagunto was a 'twin city' with Greek and Iberian quarters, with a blending of culture, architecture, etc. The presence of the temple I used as an example at least points to a significant Greek population within the city.

[Pode]

As a stopgap measure (sorry for the pun), I'd like to see wooden walls be made wide enough to stand upon, but not given the tower upgrade. Not only would this give a tolerable (at least to me) approximation of barbarian walls vs civilized stone walls, it would make for a meaningful functional difference between a pallisade and a wooden wall that I feel is more accurate historically for all factions. If I was going to fortify a place, I'd quickly throw up a simple pallisade as a start, and then I'd make damn sure I could put archers up on the top of it in a hurry, long before I went to the trouble and expense of either making it thicker wood or replacing it entirely with stone. My two cents, which according to the US Mint itself isn't worth the zinc that it's printed on.

[Teutobod II]

it wasn´t really complete stone walls...but fortifications with intigrated earthworks and ditches.

here late Cetic fortifications in central Germany:
http://www.duensberg.de/duensberg.html

or
http://www.angewandte-geologie.geol.uni-erlangen.de/houbirg.htm

or here a reconstructed germanic village with palisade and earthworks and watchtower
http://www.funkenburg-westgreussen.de

[Kralizec]

@Sarcasm: I don't think that the average Hellenic or Roman soldier would be 1.80 in height.

[Zaknafien]

well if anything theyd be shorter, so thats even worse for vanilla walls. lol

[Sarcasm]

@Sarcasm: I don't think that the average Hellenic or Roman soldier would be 1.80 in height.

Hehe, I used 1,80 for the sake of argument. It makes an even number » 9/1.80 = 5. My engineering background coming to the surface, I guess.

And like Zak said, it just makes it even worse when they're shorter :beam: .

[Kralizec]

well if anything theyd be shorter, so thats even worse for vanilla walls. lol

Yeah, that was the point.

[O'ETAIPOS]

You guys really belive in what you read in dbg? WTH... it was written by Caesar himself... He might have said a lot of truths but small facts like this were undoubtely exagerrated to show "the greatness of Rome".


Boru

This is strange. I always thought that Caesar was showing greatness of himself not "Rome". He hasn't any reasons to show how Gauls are uncivilised. The more civilsed he show them - the bigger success to conquer them. And the bigger glory for conqueror.
Killing bunch of uncivilised rabble was not worth much attention. There is good possibility Caesar hadn't understand some customs, but claiming that he was underrate them = he was lowering his own success so this is unacceptable.

[Caratacos]

well if anything theyd be shorter, so thats even worse for vanilla walls. lol

Hold on... if they were shorter (say 1.5m high) then the walls would be shorter as well-- 9 x 1.5m = 13.5m as opposed to 9 x 1.8m = 16.2m making it better for the walls (if better = shorter).

I know its rather pedantic but hey i'm bored. And at the end of the day i agree about the vanilla walls being a tad silly :wall: *Thought that smiley was appropriate*

[an_do_89]

Hey what do you say about a retainer an engineer which aquired coul build you a fine stone wall ? You think this couldn't had been possible?

Some time ago I saw on Discovery or geographic channel a movie about the gauls and Caesar . He built his career killing 2 million gauls out of 10, he wanted the gold . The movie was very favourable for the gauls, taking part scientists, archeologs from france. some points:the "barbarians" had about 200 gold mines, their laws were better than the romans(the women had rights-was exposed a burial chamber of a women with her artifacts, in rome the women was treted as a slave) AND THE WALLS- there were big stone walls ,the gaul made intense commerce with the romans,and others. They had a well established network of towns with walls . Why don't you believe Caesar told lies in what he wrote , the time will reveal the truth - this is the law of this world - nothing will remain covered.

A philosopher from Rome told that the empire came and wanted to make peace into a desert. (after killing all):wall: II=====II_____/\_____II======II

[an_do_89]

And about the GETO-DACIANS

:book: At about 25 km south-east of Campulung is the village Cetateni Arges district(Romania).There, at over 700 m altitude the archeologists had identified a former political, military,economical geto-dacian center , a dava from third-second(century) BC ocupied by population until second century AD. It was a rich center of intertribal exchange between the neighbouring lands or the distant ones.
The numerous amfors,plates, , bottles, that were wearing on their bail the seal ,the sign of the greek islands of Rhodos ,Cos, Cnidos prove that between 280-180 BC the town was importing wine and oil .Also from Antic Greece were coming the luxury plates the coloured & gold jewelry.

The town was fortified with stone wals width of 2.5 m. A very important discovery were numerous coins. The coins were made by geto-dacians by the model of those macedonean from third-second century BC. Also coins of the pontic towns proving the relation of this dava with the settlements on the Black Sea shore. In a thesaurus of 127 silver coins was found a denar from 50 BC. This coin had an inscription with latin fonts -the word PETR. This word remembers of PETRODAVA as the inscription MARK from a geto-dacian pottery fragment from Ocnita- Valcea district remembers of MARCODAVA, settlements mentioned by Ptolomeu. In this way is proving that a part of the geto-dacian population was using the writing.
Interesting is the thing that in the necropole from Cetateni into a tomb were found the remainings of an iron mail shirt ornated with gold. It is believed that it was weared by a local chieftain. It was dated by specialists with the other objects in the tome at year 70 BC. The tomb was incastrated by a vast stone construction with simillar walls to the tehnic in which the fortress wall was built.
This is what I translated from romanian site.
And for a real or unrealistic idea ; i red an article that in the mountains, in the woods that sorround Sarmiszegetusa Regia , the stronghold is defended by a network of walls & citadels wich measured has a higher lenght than the chinese wall .:sweatdrop:

[Namenlos]

Hey what do you say about a retainer an engineer which aquired coul build you a fine stone wall ? You think this couldn't had been possible?

Some time ago I saw on Discovery or geographic channel a movie about the gauls and Caesar . He built his career killing 2 million gauls out of 10, he wanted the gold . The movie was very favourable for the gauls, taking part scientists, archeologs from france. some points:the "barbarians" had about 200 gold mines, their laws were better than the romans(the women had rights-was exposed a burial chamber of a women with her artifacts, in rome the women was treted as a slave) AND THE WALLS- there were big stone walls ,the gaul made intense commerce with the romans,and others. They had a well established network of towns with walls . Why don't you believe Caesar told lies in what he wrote , the time will reveal the truth - this is the law of this world - nothing will remain covered.

A philosopher from Rome told that the empire came and wanted to make peace into a desert. (after killing all):wall: II=====II_____/\_____II======II
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm - imho the developers of EB share your perspective to a great deal. In fact, the first think that really attracted me as an absolute newcomer to this outstanding mod was its motto: Quisque est barbarus alio - a leitmotif still providing a significant lesson in our "modern" times.

The question is not a lack of respect to "barbarian" cultures, but the restrictions by the RTW engine. I think, in particular Zaknafien's statements made this sufficiently clear.

Nonetheless, you are correct pointing out some recent development - in the last few years our understanding of the Celtic culture altered in a dramatic way.

A nice summary (in German) of the recent discoveries can be found here: http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,426835,00.html

The key message: About 500 BC the Celts were in the reach of becoming one of the most advanced nations - however the question is still not answered, why this development suddenly stopped.

There are Geohistorians, who think that a devestating metorite impact in Southern Germany lead to a fundamental setback during this time. In particular Asterix fans know, that - as some chieftains told Alexander - Celts only fear a crash of the sky. Thus perhaps this statement reflects the period of bad harvests (due to a climate change for Northern Europe), war and social upheaval the Celts experienced in the aftermath of this catastrophe.

Regards - PTB

[O'ETAIPOS]

Some time ago I saw on Discovery or geographic channel a movie about the gauls and Caesar . He built his career killing 2 million gauls out of 10, he wanted the gold . The movie was very favourable for the gauls, taking part scientists, archeologs from france. some points:the "barbarians" had about 200 gold mines, their laws were better than the romans(the women had rights-was exposed a burial chamber of a women with her artifacts, in rome the women was treted as a slave) AND THE WALLS- there were big stone walls ,the gaul made intense commerce with the romans,and others. They had a well established network of towns with walls . Why don't you believe Caesar told lies in what he wrote , the time will reveal the truth - this is the law of this world - nothing will remain covered.


Was it from Terry Jones Barbarians? I've seen it too. What awful propaganda it was! Speaking about "great celtic trade" and showing modern port in action for example.
If Caesar wanted gold, why he havent gone to Dacia? There was much more gold than in Gaul. Woman treated as slave in rome. Bullshit! In the rome itself some very rich burials of women were found. Great cities in gaul? How many there were? Probably less than in central Greece. multi storey buildings? In rome you had buildings with more than 7 floors.

I know Celts were advanced and influential:yes: . Only I cant understand why some people try to make them "greatest in Europe":no: ?

[-Praetor-]

The legal status of women in the roman world cannot be compared to a slave one.

The greeks on the other hand...

[Arbaces]

If Caesar wanted gold, why he havent gone to Dacia? There was much more gold than in Gaul.
Because he was too weak to fight Dacia at that time, Burebista would have surely kicked his epileptic ass and he would've brought shame to Rome, of course, too bad he was assasinated right after finding a nice cassus belli. It took time for Rome to evolve to it's highest point on Trajan, for them to be able to conquer Dacia :wink:.

Boru

[Anthony]

"A philosopher from Rome told that the empire came and wanted to make peace into a desert."

As I recall, this quote was actually the leader of the Caledonians, quoted by Tacitus, I believe. "They make it a desert, and they call it peace."

[Zaknafien]

Hah. Wow, the level of vitriol is amazing.

[Caratacos]

Why don't you believe Caesar told lies in what he wrote , the time will reveal the truth - this is the law of this world - nothing will remain covered.

Don't get me wrong, i'm no fan of Caesar (in fact he's in my "people in history that i'd like to punch" list) but to say that he wrote a bunch of lies is a very strong accusation. Yes i believe he had an agenda. Yes i believe he wrote with a slant to make him appear great, magnanamous, galant etc. And he would have only included things that helped in this. But if you mean that he blatantly made stuff up then there is a problem-- his officers and other people who campaigned with him would (upon reading his work) know that he is lying-- "nothing will remain covered" indeed. Would he have become dictator for life if everyone knew he was a blatant liar and not to be trusted? Possibly... but surely a contemporary would have recorded the fact that everyone thought of him that way.

I am expecting backlash form those anti-caesar but may i make a suggestion? -- find passages you dissagree with and explain why or reference those who are Caesar critics and have written on the subject. To say something is full of lies and to not give examples is all too easy.


As I recall, this quote was actually the leader of the Caledonians, quoted by Tacitus, I believe. "They make it a desert, and they call it peace."

Yea you're right. Now that's a cool speech-- recorded by a Roman i might add. ~;)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Caesar did have a great respect for and wrote good things of his 'enemy', Vercingetorix. Who, most Romans would have looked down on like an animal simpily because of his race.

P.S. Caesar isn't on my "list of people in history I'd like to punch", but Cleopatra probably is.

[Anthony]

Vercingetorix Caesar could not reasonably have said much bad about; he was defeated by Vercingetorix at Gergovia, despite having numerical superiority, in quite an impressive display. I'm sure he was full aware that his victory at Alesia was as much a matter of good timing and a decent amount of luck as much as military skill (though there is the saying that goes that a military leader musn't make many good decisions to win, his enemy needs only make one bad decision to lose). If he'd said much ill of Vercingetorix people would've known he was flatly lying, at least in the military; Gergovia was no small feat, though a funny reversal. Vercingetorix's over-eagerness is probably what led to his eventual defeat at Alesia, allowing himself to be boxed in. Similarly, Caesar was too eager at Gergovia, perhaps overconfident, and misread the skill and discipline of Vercingetorix's vanguard, all of them excellently trained and disciplined soldiers. He had the battle, and it was a victory for the Gauls (those under Vercingetorix anyway; don't forget Caesar had a massive number of Gauls in his service too; allies and clients of Rome), but his own eagerness led him to disorder his men and attack prematurely on the already withdrawing Roman army, which led to the loss of many of his best commanders, ultimately forcing the withdrawl to Alesia, though even from there, he could have probably won if he had made a few key decisions differently, but Caesar's fortifications were quite a good plan.

Without the commands of Vercingetorix able to reach them, his relief had little idea of what they needed to do. However, they did almost break through. Caesar's personal lead of his reserve kept his fortifications from being broken through, which would mean Vercingetorix and his relief would be able to unite and launch an offensive, which would have, with an actual tactical head organizing it (as opposed to the various confused chieftains who had little idea what they were there to do), would have outnumbered (though not by so much as Caesar wrote; those numbers are far too high for the amount of people loyal to Vercingetorix; at the most, he may have had 100,000 soldiers loyal to him, not necessarily all would have gone, and yet Caesar states over double that, though that might also be a product of confusion; it's hard to get a good count of high numbers of men, and fear or other emotions can quickly see one exaggerating the danger of an enemy) and probably overcome the Romans, if by nothing else than over running them.

My point is, the campaign of Vercingetorix was actually fairly impressive, short as it was, even to their enemies. I'd find it unlikely, even if he wanted to, Caesar could say much bad of Vercingetorix. He, and his men, must have known that their victory against him was far from a fargone conclusion, and there was a combination of numerous factors that led to victory over him, and not simply some imagined Roman superiority over Gauls; even as weakened as Gauls were then (their armies pretty much shattered or under Roman authority), they were still quite strong enough to face the Romans, at least in some engagements. Alesia was so decisive in part, perhaps, it ended a war quickly that could have, if it had gone otherwise, would have gone on for years more barring such a deciding fight. It can rightly be said Vercingetorix is a bit overrated, but no differently than how Caesar is; over confident, too headstrong and ambitious for their own good, and over eager and proud at times when it would have been prudent to keep those traits in check.

[Caratacos]

Caesar did have a great respect for and wrote good things of his 'enemy', Vercingetorix. Who, most Romans would have looked down on like an animal simpily because of his race.

P.S. Caesar isn't on my "list of people in history I'd like to punch", but Cleopatra probably is.

That's funny, Cleopatra is in my "list of people in history I'd like to... well you know". Purely just so i could brag to my mates mind you. :laugh4:

[GodEmperorLeto]

That's funny, Cleopatra is in my "list of people in history I'd like to... well you know". Purely just so i could brag to my mates mind you. :laugh4:

She's on my list with Theodora, Audrey Hepburn, Queen Elizabeth, Joan of Arc, Elanor of Aquitaine, Roxanne, and the Virgin Mary.

Anyway, when it comes to designing the barbarians' stone walls, the height of the walls in RTW is problematic. My solution is to simply reskin the "stone walls" for the barbarians to make them seem more culturally adaptable, but keep them tall enough for siege towers and ladders to scale. Large, wooden towers, wooden gatehouses, and wooden palings on the top might create a happy medium, where the stone is only half the regular height, but additional height is created by wooden ramparts.

Get inspiration from Namelos' pictures. There's definitely stuff that can be done.

[Zaknafien]

She's on my list with Theodora, Audrey Hepburn, Queen Elizabeth, Joan of Arc, Elanor of Aquitaine, Roxanne, and the Virgin Mary.

Gross.

[Grand Lord of Poop~]

Well, ya gotta hav a strong willy to @%#$ that many ladies!! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

sorry just wanted to continue the recent "willy scandal" *smirk*

[Zaknafien]

Yeah, and a paper bag and lots of deodorant.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Anyway, when it comes to designing the barbarians' stone walls, the height of the walls in RTW is problematic. My solution is to simply reskin the "stone walls" for the barbarians to make them seem more culturally adaptable, but keep them tall enough for siege towers and ladders to scale. Large, wooden towers, wooden gatehouses, and wooden palings on the top might create a happy medium, where the stone is only half the regular height, but additional height is created by wooden ramparts.

Get inspiration from Namelos' pictures. There's definitely stuff that can be done.

We actually have modeler doing this but it is like 50 different models to build and skin so it takes looooong time ~:(

[GodEmperorLeto]

We actually have modeler doing this but it is like 50 different models to build and skin so it takes looooong time ~:(

Oh, I have no doubt. I'm glad you guys are working on it, and I don't care how long it takes. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you guys packaged it and sold it, I'd fork out the $50 for it, despite my poor grad-student status. You guys have been helping me procrastinate since the mod came out.


Well, ya gotta hav a strong willy to @%#$ that many ladies!!


Yeah, and a paper bag and lots of deodorant.

You guys are hilarious.