A respectable hobby?

[Beefeater]

Other Brits among us may also have noted that the political columnist David Aaronovitch recently, and very bravely, confessed not only to a liking for wargaming in general, but also to playing MTW2 in particular (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2519863.html) (I believe a screenie from his French campaign made it into the paper).

Shortly afterwards, the MP Michael Gove also confessed, in this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1055-2527262,00.html)Times article, to a fondness for moving imaginary soldiers around an imaginary board.

So, is this the dam bursting? Are any other closet wargamers (or role-players, or other indulgers in not-quite-respectable hobbies) in public life coming out? How about on the other side of the atlantic - how are things viewed over there?

Cheering news for us, however you look at it.

[Daveybaby]

I seem to recall a few years ago during the development of Master of Orion, one of the forum (semi) regulars was an MP (member of Parliament, not Military Police).

[caravel]

They are already among us....... :scared:

[Von Nanega]

Firstly, Beefeater, your screen name makes me thirsty! But yes, with the immersion and the quality of these strategy games it makes sense that professionals of all types enjoy these games.

[marcusbrutus]

I can imagine MPs sat around in the canteen at the Commons discussing their latest campaign or mod.

I bet:

John Prescott has the fastest most powerfull PC (2 of them)

Gordon Brown plays as Scotland

George Galloway plays as the Turks

Blair plays as England but just follows whatever the biggest power does

Ming Campbell is never sure what everyone is talking about

No one ever congratulates each other on a well played campaign/battle but they all love to pick holes in each others strategies/tactics

Labour MPs have problems with the loyalty of their provences

Conservative MPs love to assasinate their King

Lib Dem MPs prefer to Turtle.

[Beefeater]

Gorgeous George Galloway is my MP, more's the pity.

[pevergreen]

And John Howard is waiting for the Americas to arrive to he can "meet up" with George Bush. :laugh4: (at least aussies will get it, not sure of anyone else)

[General Zhukov]

Interesting question, Beef.

Living in the southern section of the U.S., traditionally a rather prudish area, and being a roleplayer myself, I've made some observations on the subject.

The mainstream reaction is to look askew at roleplayers as engaging in a certainly quirky and possibly deviant hobby. Religious objections form one of the largest barriers to "unclean" hobbies. Here, it is bizarre to believe in ghosts, but perfectly normal to believe in a Holy Ghost. A combination of ignorance, religious objections, and an exaggerated remembrance of the aberrant behavior of some youths in the past seems to fuel the distaste of these pastimes. Of course, those who actually participate in or observe the goings on of wargaming or roleplaying usually have their notions dispelled. That said, I don't think that the not-so-respectable hobbies are gaining acceptance outside of the small groups that enjoy them.

It would take a lot of courageous people, celebrities included, coming out of the woodwork to begin to reverse the outdated notions about these hobbies. Such an education offensive would reveal to the larger public that wargamers/roleplayers/game enthusiasts tend to be some of the most intelligent and/or creative people around.

One American celeb, the comedian Stephen Colbert, gave an interview (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/537989p1.html) discussing his dabbles in the dark arts.

[marcusbrutus]

That said, I don't think that the not-so-respectable hobbies are gaining acceptance outside of the small groups that enjoy them.

I'm not sure - I think all Computer gaming is becoming more acceptable. Over here in Britland the computer game shops are usually packed with people where as 10 years ago my mates and I used to sneak into them in case we were spotted by anyone who knew us :creep:.

[baron_Leo]

I am in Hungary and have been to the parliament often, and one time during a session I saw two MP-s connecting their office laptops and playing Counter-strike...Okay they care this much about what is going on int the parliament. But I think it would be very much fun to hold a Conuter-strike contest for MP's:-) (for Hungarian fellas: just imagine Orbán giving a headshot to Lendvali Ildikó-vazze lehetne miről beszélni a Nap-keltében:-)) (sorry for the last Hungarian sentence, but I had to write that in our language:-)

[shawpower]

Not quite the same as war games as you mean them, but a good story anyway...

A friend of my sisters is involved in some online game, I think it's a FPS game where they have clans etc. He is the clan leader for this particular group.

Anyway, he was going for a job interview and he put on his CV that he was the clan leader. During the interview it turned out that one of the interviewers also played this particular game. On further discussion it turned out that he was a member of the same clan. Effectively the chap going for the job was his boss in the clan. :laugh4:

Anyway, a couple of days later he got word that he hadn't gotten the job he had applied for. :no:

It turned out that instead they had decided that the traits he had as a successful clan leader meant he was suitable for a different job which was more senior and had a higher salary. They offered that one to him without interview. :2thumbsup: How cool is that!!

[marcusbrutus]

They offered that one to him without interview. :2thumbsup: How cool is that!!

Hah, never heard of an online community working like an old boys club in 'real life'. It's the future.

[Musashi]

Interesting question, Beef.

Living in the southern section of the U.S., traditionally a rather prudish area, and being a roleplayer myself, I've made some observations on the subject.

The mainstream reaction is to look askew at roleplayers as engaging in a certainly quirky and possibly deviant hobby. Religious objections form one of the largest barriers to "unclean" hobbies. Here, it is bizarre to believe in ghosts, but perfectly normal to believe in a Holy Ghost. A combination of ignorance, religious objections, and an exaggerated remembrance of the aberrant behavior of some youths in the past seems to fuel the distaste of these pastimes. Of course, those who actually participate in or observe the goings on of wargaming or roleplaying usually have their notions dispelled. That said, I don't think that the not-so-respectable hobbies are gaining acceptance outside of the small groups that enjoy them.

It would take a lot of courageous people, celebrities included, coming out of the woodwork to begin to reverse the outdated notions about these hobbies. Such an education offensive would reveal to the larger public that wargamers/roleplayers/game enthusiasts tend to be some of the most intelligent and/or creative people around.

One American celeb, the comedian Stephen Colbert, gave an interview (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dungeons-dragons-online/537989p1.html) discussing his dabbles in the dark arts.
Funny, out here in Cali it seems like every second person I meet is into RPGs or Wargames. When I was in college, the White Wolf players were actually the majority of the campus... Non-roleplayers seemed to be a tiny minority.

[katank]

In college right now. Practically all my friends and probably at least 30% of campus game regularly. Granted, not all strategy games but mostly wargames. BF2, Civ, TW series, and Counterstrike is always a favorite as well.

[Quillan]

Back when I was into ForEverQuest, there were a few pro sports players who were in the game. Wargaming in general isn't all that uncommon, but computer wargaming does seem to be a bit more unusual for the older crowd.

[Derventio]

Mainstream TV is showing stuff based on MTW series. I think I saw something on BBC called Time Commanders and on Discovery(?) called the Generals.

My wife was suitably impressed that I do more then "play" with my computer.

Sothis stuff is getting a wider audience!

[General Zhukov]

Of course, California, New York, and college campuses are some of the most socially and intellectually progressive places around, and have a very open attitude to non-standard culture. Where I live, people wade only reluctantly into the turbulent waters of modernity. Even so, with so many young people growing up on computers and consoles, gaming is rapidly becoming a normal part of life. Computer gaming, strategy gaming or othwerwise, is likewise being normalized along with the consoles.

But! Setting up the Warhammer table, or gathering for a D&D session with books and dice in tow is still something of a clandestine affair around here. For the larger public (middle age and older), there's a whiff of conspiracy about it. What are they doing in those dank, dark houses with the curtains drawn and the candles lit? Those folks who spend hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours detailing figurines to do who knows what with; they're hopelessly lost in a fantasy world. Somehow these activities are just unwholesome.

So, in conlusion: the steady march of modernity combined with the increasing exposure of many youths to different forms of entertainment will hopefully lead to reduced stigma for these hobbies in the future.

[Quillan]

Try thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours instead; painting an army in miniature isn't exactly cheap and is very time consuming. You'd probably spend a couple of hundred dollars on the unpainted figures alone. Of course, miniature wargaming is a niche in itself separate from the computer wargaming section.

[Bongaroo]

I've always had a soft spot in my heart for any strategy/wargame. Started with Chess, dabbled with a certain collectable card game(m:tg, i still have one deck left but haven't played the game in 6 or 7 years), played some warhammer 40k, and ended up mostly playing mordheim, as it was much more affordable and a skirmish type game plays faster than 2000pt army engagements. Haven't played a table top game in about a year, but a hiatus was due and now I can approach the game with vigor again. An old friend is trying to get me to pick up a Blood Bowl team, we'll see.

While MTW2 is fun, I can't focus on the campaign map much after a while due to the fact that towards the end game the challenge is gone. Maybe a good mod will help or maybe I can try to play a non-catholic faction for a change of pace.

Oh, somewhere back in there I played a lot of Battletech games. Fun stuff, but tons of rules.

I'd say that I was embarrassed of my tabletop gaming days in high school but I've definetly learned not to care what others think. I do agree that many smart and creative people play wargames but with all hobbies/sports there is a certain crowd that find a way to kill the fun. I guess I'd call them powergamers in tabletop games and "l33t" speakers in video games. The type of person who takes a game much to seriously or takes on a jackass persona in a game they are either good at or became good at by spending 90% of their free time playing it.

Miniature wargaming is fun, but its tough when your game store is catering to kids who don't know how to respect your property or haven't learned patience enough to learn a hobby or game correctly.

meah

[PaulTa]

I'd add Washington to the list of progressive states. Here in WA, we're proud of our coffee and computers, being the home state of microsoft and all that.

I think that most of the blue states are quite progressive.

[diamondback88]

Nah, they just hold on to different superstitions. "The scriptures say we need a minority working here or we'll be tempting the back luck demons!"

How often you run into wargamers and gamers of any kind also depends on the kind of crowd you run with. I imagine in mainstream MTV culture they're pretty rare, but I remember playing big, 8-person D&D games back in school with all the metalheads and other social alternatives. Honestly though, I hope mainstream culture doesn't ever latch on to gaming... then it'll get all stylish and perfunctory. :shifty: The VGA awards are already a little denegrating to the hobby, and this new gaming league is just rediculous.

[marcusbrutus]

Honestly though, I hope mainstream culture doesn't ever latch on to gaming...

Plenty of good/average mainstream games - FIFA, Champ Man, Sonic, Sims, Barbies adventures (maybe not).

[Beefeater]

It can't just be highly educated liberal progressives that are tolerant of wargames: I ordered Dom3 from the Shrapnel Games website and half expected to get a trial membership of the Project for the New American Century thrown in. I note also that a segment of popular US science fiction is very right wing: military sci-fi tends to be full of cardboard characters, honourable soldiers mixing with corrupt, bumbling civilians.

I think that General Zhukov may have hit the nail on the head when he mentioned being 'hopelessly lost in a fantasy world'. Mostly when we've grown up, we prefer stories that come directly from the real world, even if it's not our real world: Tolstoy remains respectable, Tolkien, less so. Historical fiction occupies a sort of demilitarised zone between the acceptable and the fantastic.

I suspect that one reason that role-playing and wargaming are shunned as hobbies in the UK is that they give the impression that their players are not fully engaged with reality. People who are not fully plugged into the real world do strange things, and are frightening in the way that the mad or the drunk can be; they do not respond as we expect them to. Perhaps then an unusually well-developed imagination is a subconscious red-flag: this person is a potential threat.

Not sure about wargaming. I believe that it was once regarded (in adults) as an eccentric if somewhat old-fashioned hobby; like having a model train set or an extensive collection of the Royal Mail's finest. Now, probably because the most profitable wargames company in the UK is Games Workshop, wargaming tends to be associated with them and thus with fantasy/sci-fi. Maybe Michael Gove is right in that it suggests an unhealthy interest in things military.

[Bijo]

There's nothing wrong with role-playing or wargaming (whether cardboardish or software-like).



Perhaps then an unusually well-developed imagination is a subconscious red-flag: this person is a potential threat.
You put up some good words, including these. Makes me think of the typical fear many humans have towards the unknown or the mysterious.



To continue, what I think of wargaming is very simple. We originate from animals, and are just like them. With our typical aggression, dominance, fear, hate, etc. We have the urge to conquer, to hurt, to attack, to destroy, to take power and control. The difference between us and animals, is that we're a lot worse, due to our human intelligence.

Society's rules forbid us to perform acts of violence, or whatever acts perceived as "evil". Playing wargames is just that typical thing we need, especially men need it. It's that deep part of the brain we're satisfying.

I bet if an open WW III broke out, and if many men were forced to go to battle, those who will have their first war experience will grow accustomed to it, and maybe even like it. But that's mainly speculation.

I for one am very interested in general warfare and its history, simply because it interests me. That's one of the reasons I play TW (for battles mainly). But I read books too.
I wonder what people would think if they'd have to compare two people interested in warfare, tactics, strategies, and so on. But one is playing wargames, and the other is reading books and such.

[Mount Suribachi]

Robin Williams is a TW fan - he showed up at teh CA booth @ E3 a few years back.

Darren Gough and Robbie Williams are amongst those who have extolled the virtues of the Champ Manager series

Man Utd players currently celebrate a goal by do a BF2 imitation.

[PaulTa]

To the original post, I consider war games to be a very respectable hobby, but I decide on what's respectable or not based on what one takes away from said hobby. In my opinion, strategy games teach a person patience, critical thinking, and management skills, all of which I value very highly.

[King Bob VI]

Keep in mind that as the generation raised on video games (Mostly those under 20) grows into adulthood, video gaming of all types will become a very common and acceptable hobby for adults. IMO, at least.

[OMGLAZERS]

Robin Williams is a TW fan - he showed up at teh CA booth @ E3 a few years back.

Darren Gough and Robbie Williams are amongst those who have extolled the virtues of the Champ Manager series

Man Utd players currently celebrate a goal by do a BF2 imitation.

BF2 Imitation?

What? I've never seen any ManUtd player do anything from BF2 unless they like, crouch-hump their kills?

[OMGLAZERS]

Robin Williams is a TW fan - he showed up at teh CA booth @ E3 a few years back.

AND a Spore fan as well :P

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1734727723734486891

[sapi]

Not quite the same as war games as you mean them, but a good story anyway...

A friend of my sisters is involved in some online game, I think it's a FPS game where they have clans etc. He is the clan leader for this particular group.

Anyway, he was going for a job interview and he put on his CV that he was the clan leader. During the interview it turned out that one of the interviewers also played this particular game. On further discussion it turned out that he was a member of the same clan. Effectively the chap going for the job was his boss in the clan. :laugh4:

Anyway, a couple of days later he got word that he hadn't gotten the job he had applied for. :no:

It turned out that instead they had decided that the traits he had as a successful clan leader meant he was suitable for a different job which was more senior and had a higher salary. They offered that one to him without interview. :2thumbsup: How cool is that!!
That really, really scares me.

I don't know about you, but i'd never put anything that my online persona does on a rl resume - it just wouldn't feel right...

The only reason that clans and the like will never truly act as old boy clubs is that too few of their members are in senior positions (both because of age and, dare i say it, outlook on life)

[Dearmad]

Other Brits among us may also have noted that the political columnist David Aaronovitch recently, and very bravely, confessed not only to a liking for wargaming in general, but also to playing MTW2 in particular (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2519863.html) (I believe a screenie from his French campaign made it into the paper).

Shortly afterwards, the MP Michael Gove also confessed, in this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1055-2527262,00.html)Times article, to a fondness for moving imaginary soldiers around an imaginary board.

So, is this the dam bursting? Are any other closet wargamers (or role-players, or other indulgers in not-quite-respectable hobbies) in public life coming out? How about on the other side of the atlantic - how are things viewed over there?

Cheering news for us, however you look at it.

Since the days of Jane's military books (that's how those books came about- GAMING!) these men have been playing these games and probably much much earlier...

What I wonder is if they mod and/or CHEAT!?

Would love to challenge Bush to a game and KICK HIS ASS!