Uhm, yeah. Peaceful workers, here to earn some money...

[Don Corleone]

Where I come from, when people come running over the border with guns and shoot at the agents, that's an invasion (http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/borderstory0104-CR.html) But then again, I'm just a racist right-winger, right Watchman? Remember this summer when you said I was paranoid and delusional? Yeah, I'd like to bring that up again here...

Integrate my foot. They want to take over, and they're here now. :rifle:

[Divinus Arma]

I think you read the Drudge Report.

[econ21]

The link seems to suggest this was related to drug-running. I'm not sure what your point is, Don? Drug runners don't want to integrate?

[scotchedpommes]

All illegal immigrants are drug-runners, naturally.

[Del Arroyo]

The whole border region of Mexico is a war zone and has been pretty much without a break for the last 200 years. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

[Don Corleone]

They said it occurred on a drug-trafficing corridor.

1) Nobody is saying it was actually drug gang members.

2) Who do you think shepherds all the illegals over here?

I really don't understand why there's such a big push out there to have as many illegal immigrants come into this country as possible. I see it in Democrats, who embrace it openly. I see it in Republicans, who lie, and say they'll stand firm, then sign amnesty deals. And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

[Don Corleone]

The whole border region of Mexico is a war zone and has been pretty much without a break for the last 200 years. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Well, what you might have missed is that under orders, the National Guard troops actually retreated. That is, a bunch of armed men approached the border, fired at the border guards, who then in turn ran without firing back, because they were ordered to. Yeah, I'll sleep better tonight. Who's to say it wasn't Al-Queda coming through?

And yes, DA, I read Drudgereport regularly.

[scotchedpommes]

And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

Where? I might not cheer, but if I read many more posts like this I might just
get a laugh from it.

[Tribesman]

really don't understand why there's such a big push out there to have as many illegal immigrants come into this country as possible. I see it in Democrats, who embrace it openly. I see it in Republicans, who lie, and say they'll stand firm, then sign amnesty deals. And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

Hey Don you know that bit it the opening post, the bit where you mention an earlier comment by watchman .
Perhaps he has a point .

[Don Corleone]

Where? I might not cheer, but if I read many more posts like this I might just
get a laugh from it.

Glad to be there for you, big guy. :balloon2:

[Del Arroyo]

Sounds like whoever was giving orders to the National Guardsmen is a very sensible guy. The first rule of the warrior is to avoid unnecessary conflict.

What reason would they have to return fire? That's not what they're there for. It's not like the gunmen would be able to hold out against the whole US Army if they decided to really try something.

[Don Corleone]

Uhm, yeah, except the whole US army wasn't there. If we can't protect our borders, if we let every gang of armed thugs coming from Mexico (who may or may not be Mexican for that matter), hell, if we're not even going to try....

I don't think the government should be surprised by a spike in vigilantism. When the government fails to protect the people, they'll start taking care of themselves.

[Xiahou]

Uhm, yeah, except the whole US army wasn't there. If we can't protect our borders, if we let every gang of armed thugs coming from Mexico (who may or may not be Mexican for that matter), hell, if we're not even going to try....

I don't think the government should be surprised by a spike in vigilantism. When the government fails to protect the people, they'll start taking care of themselves.
That's the amazing part of all of this- people on all sides seem to completely lose sight of the fact that a nation has the right duty to protect its borders. When a group, be it drug dealers, illegal aliens or foreign troops try to violate a country's borders by force- it should be the government's duty to stop them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't think anybody would've laughed if this would've been about criminal paramilitary groups from former Yugoslavia infiltrating European borders....

I have little sympathy for paramilitary groups - yes that's what we're dealing with here - furthering the interests of billion dollar criminal organisations. No democratic state can tolerate this sort of activity. I hope next time they won't stumble upon the National Guard but upon a properly equipped Border Patrol unit.

However, Don, we should make a distinction between border infiltration by armed thugs and Latin-American immigration in general. You've described this event in terms of a rather unsavoury metaphor for Latin-American immigration into the US at large. I.e. as 'armed Mexican thugs overrunning the US'. Which is horse-puckey.

Besides, I wouldn't focus too much on what happens at the border. Drug trafficking won't be stopped by tightening the border control. The more difficult it gets to get them in, the higher the incentive to find some means to get them in.
Nor does it have any great impact on the Latinization of the southwest US. Tighter border control won't make much of a difference. That will change neither demographic trends nor the unwillingness of many Latino's to integrate.

[Don Corleone]

Louis, you raise a valid point. Surely, the average river-hopper isn't here to establish Aztlan or whatever the drug cartels in Mexico are using for propaganda these days.

Unfortunately, when they allow themselves to be footmen in these battles, it's hard to sympathize with them when they choose to be fodder for such forces as these.

Tribesman, scorn from you comes as praise. Thanks for reassuring me.

[Marshal Murat]

I'm not surprised that the National Guard fell back for the sole reason that they're more observational, co-ordination and not actually there with guns and Bradleys.
I however wish that the Border Patrol would take more steps to prevent this sorta intimidation. Claymores would do just fine.
While on a seperate tangent, I think drugs should be legalized. It'll be like drinking in Europe. The spike after the whole "oooh, I can sniff crack, and its cool!" and then the levelization as those who take it to the extreme crash and burn, or the people realize what a bad idea it is, and it will melt into the background of American society.

[Strike For The South]

Im convinced something has to be done at a state level. Texas and California are the two most powerful states in the whole damned union. Is the Latino vote really that important? Do the politicans know Latinos dont vote? We need to start soon and we need to start in places like Lardeo and Eagle Pass, places where Mexican lae runs rampant and the language has completly disinagreated.


Bribe culture seeps into South Texas
19 convicted as Mexican style of corruption moves north of the border

By JAMES PINKERTON
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

BROWNSVILLE — The bribe has long been a shortcut to wealth and power along the Texas-Mexico border. But these days, it's not just politicians lining their pockets or crooked lawmen taking bags of cash to overlook drug loads.

The culture of bribery is quietly seeping into new realms of government, from school districts to municipal court, experts say.

Proximity to Mexico is at least partly to blame, said Anthony Knopp, a professor who teaches border history at the University of Texas at Brownsville.

"What we're dealing with is a Third World country on the other side of the border where there is a culture of corruption ... corruption will show up here, naturally."

And show up, it has.

Since March 2004, 19 public officials including former Cameron County Sheriff Conrado Cantu, a city manager, several county commissioners, a school superintendent and several school trustees have been convicted of taking kickbacks and bribes.

Some pocketed wads of cash. Others accepted new tires for their cars or extensive remodeling jobs on their homes and businesses. Some even partied with prostitutes. In return, some allegedly awarded lucrative contracts to build or furnish new schools and public buildings. Or they looked the other way as traffickers hauled drugs across the border.

"Bribery is happening down here," said Israel Pacheco, a veteran Texas Ranger in McAllen. "To say it's not happening is to bury your head in the sand."

The way things are done
The bribery culture has existed in Mexico for centuries. There, the bribe is known as la mordida — "the bite." Paying mordidas is often the most efficient — or the only — way of getting things done in Mexico.

Federal officials in the Rio Grande Valley say they began seeing rising numbers of bribery cases several years ago, and formed a task force to target corruption and graft.

Bribery "undermines public confidence in government," said Don DeGabrielle, the U.S. attorney for the federal district that stretches from Houston to Laredo and south to Brownsville.

"When a few abuse their offices ... citizens justifiably wonder then who can they trust in the rest of government," said DeGabrielle, a former FBI agent.

He said the federal task force has led to a number of important arrests and hopes that continued prosecutions will discourage others from taking or offering bribes and kickbacks.

But for some, the temptation is too great.

A Brownsville municipal court clerk was recently sentenced to probation for fixing traffic tickets, undeterred by hundreds of police officers around her at the police station. For a "fee," a city code inspector and a permit clerk allegedly let six used-car lot owners operate in Brownsville without passing building inspections.

The culture of bribery "has filtered down to where it's not just law enforcement," a veteran U.S. agent said on condition of anonymity.

Bribery of lawmen remains a problem, he added.

"We're seeing it a lot more ... and it isn't always cash," he said. "It could be bottles of liquor, it could be a car. Sometimes it's hunting trips."

He said the motivation is always the same — greed.

"It's the money," the agent said. "As long as I've been doing this job."

Alleged entrapment
Some in the Valley blame federal authorities.

The government "creates crime" by using "unsavory" informants to entrap otherwise honest people, said Al Alvarez, a McAllen lawyer who has defended a number of public officials.

As the Valley grows and receives larger shares of state and federal funding, more and more locals get involved in government and some don't know the law, Alvarez said.

"People here don't have the experience in management ... mistakes are made, and some are criminal," Alvarez said.

Bribery cases often end in scenes like one in a Brownsville federal courthouse Nov. 10, when Israel Tamez, a tearful ex-county commissioner, stood before a federal judge.

"I know I did wrong, and I have to pay for it," said Tamez, a resident of Willacy County, one of the state's poorest.

U.S. District Judge Andrew Hanen sentenced Tamez to six months in jail for taking a $10,000 bribe to award a $14.5 million jail contract.

The fallout from another federal investigation was even more tragic in the case of Ed Aparicio, 46, a popular state judge who killed himself last April on the day he announced his resignation. Although the judge was never charged with a crime, FBI agents had searched his home and courthouse chambers, carting off paintings and other potential evidence in a reported bribery investigation.

TV stations in the Valley routinely feature tales of public officials being caught allegedly pocketing bribes in exchange for a range of illegal favors.

In one case last year, the FBI arrested a trustee for the Pharr-San Juan-Alamo Independent School District and a masonry contractor, accusing them of bribery and extortion.

The McAllen Monitor, applauded the move.

"What's most disturbing isn't the way the two are accused of operating," the paper said in an editorial. "It's that officials at nearly every other school district and municipal government in the Valley conduct business in a similar manner."

In another case, the Cameron County district attorney is investigating how the Brownsville Navigation District spent $21.4 million in taxpayer money during a decade-long, futile effort to build a rail bridge to Mexico.

A private attorney hired by the district concluded $10.5 million was paid to subcontractors in Mexico who did little or no work, including a firm with close ties to Mexican officials.

Elections involved
Bribery has also crept into Valley elections, said Othal Brand Jr., who ran his father's unsuccessful campaign for mayor last year in McAllen.

A political worker offered him "400 votes for $10 apiece, or $4,000," he said.

"It short-circuits the system," Brand said of bribery. "It speeds the process up and cuts red tape. It saves time or money, but without any conscience about the morality, the right or wrong."

Some worry that even more public officials could be compromised as vast amounts of drug money flow across the Texas border.

Laredo police frequently stop cars for speeding as they head through town on their way to Mexico, finding "massive amounts of cash," said Jerry Thompson, a history professor at Texas A&M International University. "One had $400,000 in a bag in the back seat. He didn't even have it in the trunk.

"What scares me is that this drug corruption is going to corrupt the judicial system."

Undeterred, U.S. officials say they're continuing their fight against bribery in the Valley.

"It's not over," said DeGabrielle, the top U.S. prosecutor in Houston. "We are still actively engaged in investigating corruption. ... We haven't washed our hands and declared victory."

[BigTex]

I'm not surprised that the National Guard fell back for the sole reason that they're more observational, co-ordination and not actually there with guns and Bradleys.
Personally I think we need more of these

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1217097/23.JPG

and less of those

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1217097/binno.JPG

on the border.

Quite honestly having an invasion by militant Mexican extremists is reason enough to put more heavier armed forces down there.

Currently the level of criminal aliens coming across the border is insane. We have the ability and the power we need to enforce our law's and our borders.

[lars573]

But then in 3 months you have unarmed civilians being shot in the dark by border agents. Big mess yes?

[BigTex]

But then in 3 months you have unarmed civilians being shot in the dark by border agents. Big mess yes?

In 3 months you'll have more armed citizens on the border randomly killing people crossing. Bigger mess yes?

[lars573]

Oh it's going to be a bigger mess no matter what. The only thing that's going to stop the flow of migrants from Mexico to the US is Mexico. Doesn't matter what you do, fortify the border, shoot Meixcans on site, ship them back. Mexico is the one who can stop the flow. By making it a place tha that people actually want to live in.

[BigTex]

Oh it's going to be a bigger mess no matter what. The only thing that's going to stop the flow of migrants from Mexico to the US is Mexico. Doesn't matter what you do, fortify the border, shoot Meixcans on site, ship them back. Mexico is the one who can stop the flow. By making it a place tha that people actually want to live in.

Kind of difficult when the Mexican policy is to get as many across the border as they can. They also refuse to hire their own population, claiming it's to expensive so they are using immigrant labor in mexico further forcing their own north. No loading the border with armed guards wont stop immigration, but it will slow it. And it's far better then the ticking time bomb we currently have. These kinds of invasions are going to set that bomb off one of these days, and if armed NG can prevent that then bring em on down.

[Sensei Warrior]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?

[BigTex]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?

To bad that isnt happening. Since it wont the governors should at least use armed force to prevent, or even delay what will happen.

Not to say Bush hasnt tryed, granted IMO not hard enough but he has. The Mexican government refuses to do anything about it. They even support it, it's part of Foxes national policy.

We need to enforce our laws, and our borders. Having invasions by militant Mexican extremists is more reason to have armed personel on the border.

[Xiahou]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?
Mexico has zero incentive to do so. Illegal immigration is a safety valve for Mexico- it lets them get rid of unhappy, poor citizens instead of having them stay in the country where they could become a political liability. Additionally, the money that illegals siphon off our economy and send back to relatives in Mexico is a significant revenue source for the country.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Isn't this thread conflating three separate groups?

American citizens of Mexican descent and Mexicans who have legal right to work and live in the US
Illegal immigrants of Mexican origin
Armed thugs who attack border guards


Obvious group 3 deserve unreserved condemnation, but this incident can't be used to attack groups 1 and 2. Neither can Mexico alone be blamed for the rise in numbers in group 2. In any situation like this there are push and pull factors. Yes, some Mexicans might find Mexico an unattractive place to live and work and the Mexican government could (and should) do something to address this, but they would not make their way to Texas unless there was something to attract them: work that Texans won't do for the pay on offer and employers willing to give work to illegals. This is something the Federal and State governments could (and should) address. Action on the things that make the US attractive to illegals will be more effective than trying to secure the border. The only way to make the border completely secure would be to close it, which would have harmful economic effects on both countries.

It is worth remembering that there a plenty of people who fall into group one in Texas, many of whom have forebears that arrived in Texas a very long time ago. It would be wrong if problems with groups 2 and group 3 led to hostility against them.

[Sensei Warrior]

Mexico has zero incentive to do so. Illegal immigration is a safety valve for Mexico- it lets them get rid of unhappy, poor citizens instead of having them stay in the country where they could become a political liability. Additionally, the money that illegals siphon off our economy and send back to relatives in Mexico is a significant revenue source for the country.

If Mexico had zero incentive to do so than the US is either:

a. Not trying hard enough, Saddam had zero incentive to relinquish power, but we somehow managed to presuade him.

b. It hasn't become such an epidemic that the Federal Gov. is forced to resort to A.

[BigTex]

If Mexico had zero incentive to do so than the US is either:

a. Not trying hard enough, Saddam had zero incentive to relinquish power, but we somehow managed to presuade him.

b. It hasn't become such an epidemic that the Federal Gov. is forced to resort to A.

For starters the rich have too much to gain from a source of cheap labor. Those are generally the people making the large campaign contributions also..... But also there is little to gain from invading Mexico. Little was gained the last time we invaded it, too. War with Mexico would result in a long drown out conflict that would occur all across the southern states. I doubt many of us would like to see mexican gangs bombing Hollywood.

Now, annexing Mexico could be a good thing though in the long run. Granted would take awhile to see anything positive, but the southern portions of Mexico are quite rich.

[Sensei Warrior]

LOL, Ok don't take this seriously but I can't help but to tie this into the discussion we were having in the other thread.

All the more reason to open our border to Mexico. We'll take in everyone who wants in, spread them out amongst all the states, then when we've depleted the population enough we'll politely offer to annex them. Hell, if we let them all move in even the immigrants they're using for cheap labour will come in as well.

If they decline the Annex then military action. What are they going to do? We'll have their whole population. Who they going to draft?

If we keep the Southern border open we will prolly be able to claim most if not all of the Central and South Americas using the same method. We will be able to win the drug war and have a very large, willing, and able manual workforce, and the rich Southern lands of Mexico, and think of all the revenue we can tax from the college kids who will inevitably be down in the Tourist Cities of Mexico on spring break.

[Major Robert Dump]

Did they not have their weapons at ready? I'm somewhat curious why they didn't just yell some warnings, send up a flare and open fire. Even if the Mexicans were better equipped, they would be nuts to stand and fight the American forces. Hell, if they did stand and fight and hurt/kill some of our people, maybe then the people will realize how big of a threat this stuff is.

First, they invade our country and skirt paying taxes while sucking entitlements.

Then, they try to have Dog the Bounty Hunter extradited! A shame!

Now, this

[JimBob]

but the southern portions of Mexico are quite rich.
Chiapas? Oaxaca? Those are some really poor places buddy. Where is the rich south Mexico.

To get rid of illegals just attach a 25 year prison sentence onto hiring them. Demand will dry up and presto.

[KukriKhan]

LOL, Ok don't take this seriously but I can't help but to tie this into the discussion we were having in the other thread.

All the more reason to open our border to Mexico. We'll take in everyone who wants in, spread them out amongst all the states, then when we've depleted the population enough we'll politely offer to annex them. Hell, if we let them all move in even the immigrants they're using for cheap labour will come in as well.

If they decline the Annex then military action. What are they going to do? We'll have their whole population. Who they going to draft?

If we keep the Southern border open we will prolly be able to claim most if not all of the Central and South Americas using the same method. We will be able to win the drug war and have a very large, willing, and able manual workforce, and the rich Southern lands of Mexico, and think of all the revenue we can tax from the college kids who will inevitably be down in the Tourist Cities of Mexico on spring break.

It wouldn't be the first time in history that the "people we say are our citizens are being oppressed in your country, so we're taking over" tactic was used. I'm thinking Austria and Silesia in the 1930's - not a perfect analogy, but your idea certainly turns the "reclaim Aztlan" argument on its head.

Good thinking 'out-of-the-box'. :2thumbsup:

And as to the NG retreating: I can't speak for all of them, but the guys on the California border have Rules of Engagement disallowing their use of weapons.

[lars573]

Did they not have their weapons at ready? I'm somewhat curious why they didn't just yell some warnings, send up a flare and open fire. Even if the Mexicans were better equipped, they would be nuts to stand and fight the American forces. Hell, if they did stand and fight and hurt/kill some of our people, maybe then the people will realize how big of a threat this stuff is.

First, they invade our country and skirt paying taxes while sucking entitlements.

Then, they try to have Dog the Bounty Hunter extradited! A shame!

Now, this
Dog broke Mexico's laws and then fled procecution for said crimes. He deserved extradition.

[Del Arroyo]

"turn mexico into a place where people actually want to live...."

As I've said before in many many other threads a solid majority of Mexicans do want to live in Mexico and would in fact never really want to live anywhere else. They are heirs to a culture which, unlike North American culture and indeed some other Latin American cultures, places a high value on connection to family and connection to home town. Furthermore, of those who do go and live some years abroad, a great many end up coming back, finding that while the rest of the world is interesting and the money is better etc. etc... nothing can really compare to their familiar, comfortable, and unique mother culture.

As far as the Mexican government working to improve economic and infrastructure conditions, this will take decades. It is also worth mentioning that indeed steady and tangible progress has been and is being made in all of these areas. Those who gloat most indignantly about "this inexcusable state of affairs in Mexico" are unfailingly those who know the least about the actual situation and the least about its history.

But it is not really a question that a final solution from the side of Mexico is a long-term proposition. If the problem of mass illegal immigration is an immediate crisis, then it obviously falls on the USA to do something themselves which will have a faster effect. Others suggested a crack-down on employers, and this to me appears a likely proposition.

However there seems to be zero political will for anything that will penalize US businesses. So who do we really have to blame?

[Slyspy]

Quite so. Immigrants and bandits cross the border because there is money to be made, whether your business is labouring or drug smuggling. So the first thing for the US to do, before opening fire on anyone, is to counter the monetry attractions of crossing the border.

[Marshal Murat]

Alright, how about we cut ALL bridges to Mexico, build a moat (I mean we have built a wall, why not a moat!)
Claymore and mine the border areas, then have small mobile task forces to either ship back any illegals, or destroy drug runners.

[Major Robert Dump]

And as to the NG retreating: I can't speak for all of them, but the guys on the California border have Rules of Engagement disallowing their use of weapons.


yeah i just caught the news on those DEA agents who shot the armed, fleeing drug smuggler in the butt and got kailterms because they violated the ROAs.

Still, I'd argue that armed men approaching in self defense, but as I said before, the story is thus far vague and I certainly was not there. The last thing we need are trigger happy guardsman

[Major Robert Dump]

Dog broke Mexico's laws and then fled procecution for said crimes. He deserved extradition.

Mexico has stupid laws, harbors wealthy rapists who flick their nose at justice, and uses illegal immigration into my country as a release valve for all of its socioeconomic problems. I really don't give a goats fart what Mexico or its laws says, maybe instead of chasing ole Dog they could send some more paramilitaries to beat and shoot students and squatters, but those cops are probably too busy hobknobbing with drug dealers and gangraping women in Juarez.

[Mooks]

I got a fool-proof plan.

20 feet of pure barbed wire layed across the border. Not only barb-wire,but with over 200,000 volts going through it, deadly enough to kill anyone who comes in contact with it. Then, a 50 foot moat going across the whole border. Watchtowers with expert snipers and night vision and with state-of-the art sniper rifles kill anyone who even try to cross the moat. Then fill the moat with alligators, sharks, pirahnas, and loads of imported poisonus snakes.

Or, a crackdown on employers, either one works.

[Xiahou]

As I've said before in many many other threads a solid majority of Mexicans do want to live in Mexico and would in fact never really want to live anywhere else. A majority? Yes, but not an overwhelming majority. In a recent Pew poll of Mexican citizens (in Mexico) 40+% of the population said they would go live in the USA if they were able.

As for stopping the problem, I see a two-fold solution. 1) Severely penalizing any employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens and put reasonable procedures in place for employers to verify citizenship. 2)Increased border enforcement. Not only for stemming the tide of illegals, but also for security reasons. Mexico could clearly care less who comes across our borders(at least there is some security/cooperation on our northern border), so it's up to the us.

[Brenus]

“20 feet of pure barbed wire layed across the border. Not only barb-wire,but with over 200,000 volts going through it, deadly enough to kill anyone who comes in contact with it. Then, a 50 foot moat going across the whole border. Watchtowers with expert snipers and night vision and with state-of-the art sniper rifles kill anyone who even try to cross the moat. Then fill the moat with alligators, sharks, pirahnas, and loads of imported poisonus snakes.”
You can’t do that. It will cut migration paths of some animals. Very important, the migrations. And you will have some protest if ypu IMPORT snake. Some will complain you didn,t employed LOCAL and NATIVE snakes. The foreign snakes took the job of OUR snakes..

“Or, a crackdown on employers, either one works.” Can’t do that either. It will kill your economy, at least the local one…

[Sarmatian]

Why don't you do like you did in every other occasion? Declare war on Mexico on basis that they threaten the security of the US. England will support you.

Only major problem is that you would have to archive all those strong letters of protest from germany, france, russia and china...

[yesdachi]

Nothing will be done until after the next US election if anything ever gets done at all. With the country so split, democrat/republican, the tiny Latino vote could tip the scale against anyone that does anything against the illegals. The problems are all right in front of us the politicians see them but they wont make a move that will cost their parties next presidency.

Personally I think very harsh penalties (a graduated scale 1=$xxx, 2=$xxxx, 3=$xxxxx, etc) should be given to employers and there should be a bounty on illegals, everyone should be able to prove their citizenship if asked.

[Sensei Warrior]

Personally I think very harsh penalties (a graduated scale 1=$xxx, 2=$xxxx, 3=$xxxxx, etc) should be given to employers and there should be a bounty on illegals, everyone should be able to prove their citizenship if asked.

I agree about nothing being done until after the next election. Its the vote that counts as far as politicians are concerned, that and that they get the most votes.

I'd even like the penalty thing, you have to admit if employers keep hiring illegals, than it must encourage them to keep coming.

The bounty and proof of citizenship I dont agree with. I have to prove my citizenship to every Tom, Dork, and Harry looking to make some cash on the side by rounding up illegals? I don't think so. What's next tattooing my SSN onto my forehead?

[Marshal Murat]

What's next tattooing my SSN onto my forehead?

No silly, that will let the illegals steal it for their own use.
I think this should be shut down, going on a highly opinioned track if you ask me.

[Sensei Warrior]

No silly, that will let the illegals steal it for their own use.

LOL, good point, I didn't think of that.

[yesdachi]

The bounty and proof of citizenship I dont agree with. I have to prove my citizenship to every Tom, Dork, and Harry looking to make some cash on the side by rounding up illegals? I don't think so. What's next tattooing my SSN onto my forehead?
Admittedly my prove you’re a citizen thought is kind of “do you have your papers” (that was a great german accent impression incase you didn’t know :laugh4: ) but if illegal immigration is becoming as big of a problem as it appears then it may be reasonable. Id say that is a pretty big jump to tattooing SS#’s (barcoding would make more sensei ~D )

Not sure if we have conversed before, welcome to the backroom ~:wave:

[Sensei Warrior]

If it does become reasonable, then I hope there are a great many people who will be as loud as me in protest. It's a draconian idea. It's one thing to have to prove who you are to the authorities on demand, but to anybody at all is insane.

For instance, imagine for a second you are an American of Mexican descent. You were born in the good ole USofA as was your father, and his father before him. You look obviously Mexican. You are going to end up proving you are an American every time you leave your home, and not just to the authorities, but to anyone who thinks you're an illegal, which will be everyone. Kind of crappy huh?

Its bad enough I get "randomly searched" everytime I go to an Airport and a good number of times I wind up in a Federal Office. They say its to protect us from terrorists, but come on, its a little much. Now, you want everyone to do it to protect us from illegal immigrants?

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

As to everything else:

It was a very nice German Accent.

I concede, barcodes would be much more convienant, but I still insist on having them on your forehead ~;)

No we haven't conversed before, so HOWDY NICE TO MEECHA. I am usually a lurker, but got sucked into the backroom a few days ago by the "Who the hell are ya?" Thread, and then, very much against my nature, voiced my opinion in a couple of threads and ta da, here I am. Hopefully I"ll be able to go back to being a lurker ~:wave:

To Marshal Murat: I don't think shutting down this thread is entirely necessary. I mean there is a good dialog going on right? I don't normally post back here, so hopefully I haven't offended anyone. If I did then it was purely by accident. No one has been reduced to profanity, slander, or he said/she said so no harm no foul. I think the best debates are usually a little heated.

[Banquo's Ghost]

To Marshal Murat: I don't think shutting down this thread is entirely necessary. I mean there is a good dialog going on right? I don't normally post back here, so hopefully I haven't offended anyone. If I did then it was purely by accident. No one has been reduced to profanity, slander, or he said/she said so no harm no foul. I think the best debates are usually a little heated.

:yes:

So far, the thread has kept on the issues and not strayed into personal attacks or racism. :2thumbsup: It's clearly an important issue to many, not just in the United States, so worthwhile in the Backroom.

As you say, good debates have passion and are welcomed here as long as no-one gets too hot-headed. I just wanted to assure Marshal Murat and everyone that eyes are being kept on the thread.

[Idaho]

Yeah, I'll sleep better tonight.


Location: New Hampshire

My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:

[yesdachi]

It's one thing to have to prove who you are to the authorities on demand, but to anybody at all is insane.
But because I am not illegal, and don’t look Latino, it totally doesn’t matter to me. :laugh4: :beam: Alright maybe the idea needs some work, but if there is a real decision made to deport the illegal immigrants I do think “the people” will need to be recruited to assist as the police are already spread too thin. Without granting some kind of amnesty there has to be a way to remove or move the illegals. If we penalize the employers the illegals will no longer have a place to work, it is not likely that they will just leave, they would probably stay and drain the system even harder, they would need to be removed or made legal. I smell a great big amnesty burrito being cooked up by congress.

Enjoy the Backroom; if you get tired of banging your head against a wall take a break but always come back, you never know what you will find! :bow:

[spmetla]

According to one of my army buddies who did six months of the border patrollin spiel, national guard units that are deployed to the border are just sopposed to observe people on the border and then call it up to proper border agents. The reason he said, that this was done was because the national guard isn't exactly trained for this type of work that there was a fear that a lot of non dangerous illegal immigrants would get shot and that it would create a really bad political incident.

Still find it odd though that the national guard would withdraw from obviously hostile people crossing the border.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What's up with all this bounty hunting / militia's / proof of citizenship? America doesn't need gun-toting vigilante types hunting down Latino's illegals.
Yikes, manhunts are soo 1930's...



Still find it odd though that the national guard would withdraw from obviously hostile people crossing the border.They've got wifes and kids too, eh? Better let properly trained and equipped Border Patrol units handle it.
Plus this policy prevents John Wayne wannabees from playing Cowboys 'n Mexicans at the border.



With the country so split, democrat/republican, the tiny Latino vote could tip the scale against anyone that does anything against the illegals.Latino's are far from tiny in the key states of California, Texas and Florida. And their numbers are swelling in an astonishing rate.
I think neither party wants to make the strategical error of being considered the anti-Latino one. Both parties seem more afraid of the consequences of that in the long term than with any tipping the scale now. It seems fear prevents either party from listening to the opinion of the majority of Americans about Latino immigration.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Latino's are far from tiny in the key states of California, Texas and Florida

Of course the first two of these were once part of Mexico and many "Latino's" living there will be descended from people who were living there at the time the US acquired them. The last was also acquired (but this time from Spain) so will also have quite a few indigenous "Latino's". Well not quite indigenous but you know what I mean.

(I hope "Latinos" is not a derogatory term.)

[Banquo's Ghost]

(I hope "Latinos" is not a derogatory term.)

I don't believe it is. The fictional president Matt Santos from The West Wing frequently referred to himself as a latino candidate, and that US show was pretty politically correct.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will enlighten me. :beam:

[PanzerJaeger]

Send the mexicans back where they came from and close the border. Its as easy as that. :yes:

[Idaho]

EDIT: Removed personal attack.

[Louis VI the Fat]

(I hope "Latinos" is not a derogatory term.)I think Latin Americans is the most PC term. Just like Afro-American, or Euro-American. Latino would then emotionally be the equivalent of black, or white.*

I know Spanish Latin Americans use it themselves, as a neutral term. The older more common term was hispanoamericano. This excludes Brazil, so it couldn't be used as shorthand for 'Central or South American'.
Also it was denounced as Eurocentric - Latin Americans are not 'Spanish-Americans', they have many diverse ethnic influences. So Latino, short for Latinoamericano took hold, a word which is suppossed to reflect culture rather than ethnicity, and includes all Latin Americans. But it is most commonly associated with mixed race Mexicans and Central Americans.

Ah, if only we could all share the much simpler world of Dan Quayle: 'I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people...'


* I'm ready to stand corrected as well. It is always difficult to understand the finer emotional connotations of foreign words. And no group of words is as sensitive as those describing race/ethnicity.

[yesdachi]

Latino's are far from tiny in the key states of California, Texas and Florida.
I love how America pays attention to the “key” states while the rest of the…other states get to bang their heads against the wall.


And their numbers are swelling in an astonishing rate.
Anchor babies.

[Sensei Warrior]

Phew, so much stuff to comment on I barely know where to start.

To Banquo's Ghost: I'm happy to know I wasn't to far from the mark. This is definately an issue that is very one side or the other, its good to hash around ideas and see what pops out.


My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:

:laugh4: Well, he is pretty far from the Southern Border, as am I, but you would be surprised as to how many illegal immigrants enter the country through the Northern Border. They'll 'vacation' in Canada and then slip quietly in through the backdoor, so to speak.

To yesdachi: Its true that the current immigration issues are complicated and don't have an easy fix. I just rather not be harassed, that whole tricky undue search and seizure thing. I like the idea about penalizing employers. I don't know if it'll help, but its worth a shot.


I still find it odd though that the national guard would withdraw from obviously hostile people crossing the border.

Me too, I would think their standing orders would be to observe and report. I also think that they would be allowed to defend themselves if attacked. Call me crazy, but I'd rather be doing the shooting then taking the bullet.

To PanzerJager: If it only was. It seems there are quite a few illegals in the US right now, and they aren't exactly advertising who they are. INS has to hunt them down round them up and deport them. Considering INS can't even round up the immigrants that have entered legally, but they are now illegal because they let their paperwork lapse, I doubt they are very well equipped to do what you suggest. And remember it call costs money.


I think Latin Americans is the most PC term. Just like Afro-American, or Euro-American. Latino would then emotionally be the equivalent of black, or white.*

I guess I am nitpicking, but when I think of Afro-American or Euro-American I think of a US citizen of African or European descent. In the context of immigrants illegal or otherwise it doesn't fit since they aren't citizens, yet. Maybe that whole thing is just me.

With reference to Latino and Hispanic, I picture anyone of Latin American descent, citizen of the US or not.

[Marshal Murat]

On my note: It just seems that a concensus has been reached by most members that illegal immigration is a big issue but the general feeling at the beginning was sorta outrage at the whole issue, and now its sorta loping around illegal immigration. We know it is a problem, and we will no doubt be talking about it for a while. However, there seems to Me to be a general idea about the whole issue and its not really being discussed. Its wavering between something very violent and amnesty, and while that is great, I just don't see a point to the thread.
You know your job, so keep on doing it.


I always thought Mexican was the term. While Latino would encompass that, it seems more broad, including South America and Carribean and said Carribean islands aren't really the tanned, Spanish speaking peoples.

[Sensei Warrior]

I always thought Mexican was the term. While Latino would encompass that, it seems more broad, including South America and Carribean and said Carribean islands aren't really the tanned, Spanish speaking peoples.

Mexican is the term for people from Mexico, and even though I am sure they comprise a large portion of the illegals crossing the border, they aren't the only ones. People from all over Central and South America are crossing here as well thus the Latino I mentioned.

As for the first part of the post, sure we all agree illegal immigration is a problem. We just can't agree on what to do about it. One side has the 'lets shoot 'em and be done with it', and the other is 'let's grant 'em amnesty and be done with it', with a whole bunch of others in the middle. There is the prediction of what the government is actually going to do because sometimes its wildly different than what we think they should do.

Therein ultimately lies the discussion. I reason that the solution will be somewhere in the middle of the two, as often it is.

Of course the thread originally started about the National Guard getting shot at and it evolved into illegal immigration, and then it evolved very recently on the correct terminology of said illegals. At least I think thats how it went.

[Don Corleone]

My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:

Hmm, not quite certain where to begin on this one. Off the top of my head...

1) I shouldn't care that armed invaders assaulted a border patrol for my nation because 'it's too far away' ? So if Al-Queda attacked San Francisco, your answer would be that it's none of my busienss because it's too far away?

2) Your geography isn't so bad, but your demographics suck. There's large numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants in North Carolina (where I lived until last June), Massachussets (about 10 miles away) and other states that are no where near the border. Every place they come, it's the same thing: don't pay taxes but drain local services and they force schools to put Spanish language programs in place, punishing English speaking children by siphoning off resources. Add in the kidnappings for dog-fighting and the vigilantism, and you've got yourself a genuinely desirable bunch of folks.

3) I have absolutely no issue with legal immigration. My grandparents were immigrants for crying out loud. My issue is with the determined undercurrent to overrun the US by a population that pays no taxes, that draws money out of the social services system, that sends that money home to Mexico, that works cohesively to establish 'little Mexicos' around the country with the goal of integrating the entire USA into one Aztlan and has no intention of obeying any laws, let alone immigration ones.

Yes, most Mexican immigrants are here to earn some money. But in doing so, they're destroying the living wage most non-college educated Americans can hope toearn. They don't respect our laws, they don't learn the language, and frankly, Europeans know very little about this issue.

Yet, many of you (and I apologize for the overly broad brush I painted with the other night) feel perfectly free to dictate to us what our laws should be and how we should enforce them, even going so far as to tell us that our opinions are unacceptable. To this sub-group of Europeans, let me ask you, what gives you the right? Where do you get off telling us what to do? If you have all the answers to the world's problems, apply them at home and leave us alone. Opinions are welcome. Orders and insults, not so much.

[CrossLOPER]

http://www.lprnw.com/random/johnL.jpg
TO THIS THREAD!

[Xiahou]

2) Your geography isn't so bad, but your demographics suck. There's large numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants in North Carolina (where I lived until last June), Massachussets (about 10 miles away) and other states that are no where near the border. Every place they come, it's the same thing: don't pay taxes but drain local services and they force schools to put Spanish language programs in place, punishing English speaking children by siphoning off resources.No doubt it's worse in the Southwest, but they're literally everywhere. A town just down the Interstate from me recently made national news for trying to cope with their illegal immigration problems.

[yesdachi]

My US geography isn't the best, but aren't you about 4,000 miles from the Mexican border :laugh4:
I am in MI and a buddy of mine manages a restaurant (I wont say which one but it is a popular chain restaurant) that does background and SS# checks on all their employees and a few months ago there was a rumor started that they would be doing more in-depth checks on all their employees and the next day 12 of his staff had disappeared. Proximity to the boarder is not that big a factor when one can travel uninterrupted for 4,000 miles.

[Idaho]

I think you are all worrying far more about this issue than it really merits. But then one only has to briefly skim through US history to see that exactly the same outcry has occurred with every wave of immigration. The Italians, the Irish, the Jews, etc.

Yeah they are illegal atm. But give it 30 years and they will be established citizens complaining about all the.. er.. Algerians coming over and taking jobs.

[yesdachi]

Yeah they are illegal atm. But give it 30 years and they will be established citizens complaining about all the.. er.. Algerians coming over and taking jobs.
Or that they have absolutely no social security. :thumbsdown:

[Marshal Murat]

I think this is different. The Italians,the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, they aren't going back to the old country every fall and living there, then coming back here. They form groups and tough it out, adding to the vibrant fabric of America.

Now the illegals do 1 of 2 things.
1.They come here, take jobs as dishwashers, fruit pickers, and other menial jobs, and send their money directly back to Mexico. They then return home after they got medical attention for their broken arm, and keep some people out of the jobs. They only pay sales taxes and other small taxes for their use of public roads.
2.They bring their families north, breed like rabbits, complain about the overcrowding in their apartment, send their kids to schools but don't bother to teach them English and force the schools to conform to the Spanish children. They take a minimum wage job, pay some taxes, but since they aren't 'there' they don't pay all of it.

Now this is a generalization of much of the situation. No 2 illegals are like another. However this is the basic situation especially in Texas, California, and many states across the Union.
They don't pay as much in taxes as a middle-class American, very little of the money they earn is invested in the American economy but in the Mexican economy.
Then you have the crack-pots who decide that 'manifest destiny' was just American imperialism and claim they were here before any of us were, and that we took their land, and want to claim California (One of the highest GDP in the world) Texas (Another big one), Phoenix and New Mexico, and maybe a couple other spots as their own. You think I'm kidding? Find a book at your library called "History Lessons", and find out how other nations view U.S. history. The North Korean one is a hoot (epic poem about Kim-Il Sung),but the Mexicans always complain about us 'stealing' Texas, and doing very bad stuff.

[Idaho]

I think this is different. The Italians,the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, they aren't going back to the old country every fall and living there, then coming back here. They form groups and tough it out, adding to the vibrant fabric of America.
Go and check the history again. You'll find that during all these migrations there was initially a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between the home nation and the US.

[Sensei Warrior]

EDIT: Due to Del Arroyo's post I have realized all the Mexican-Americans I know do travel back and forth quite frequently. I naturally assumed it was alot harder for illegals to cross, considering what we are doing to try and keep them out. We all know what happens when we assume don't we? So I'll stick with what I do know. Sorry folks.

I don't know about the Italians, the Irish, the Poles, and the Hungarians, but I do know quite a few people who are Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian immigrants, here legally. They are busy working 3 jobs for the next 10 years. Do you want to know why? It's because they live on 1 paycheck and horde the rest so that in 10 years they can take all that hard earned American money and go back to their respective countries and live a nice comfortable middle class existance for the rest of their lives.

Is that wrong? No, of course it isn't. Good for them. Are they helping the American economy? No, of course not, most of the money they save, so it never gets re-circulated back into our economy. Were they all granted Amnesty when they arrived asking the US for political asylum, or some such? Some of them. Is anyone complaining about them? No.

I will state right here and now for the members of our community who are or hail from one of the aforementioned regions. I did not intend that as a smear against your respective cultures, it is an observation I noted about a number of people I actually knew/know. Personally they were all really cool, down to earth, family oriented people.

As for the rest, I think I already might of said something similar to Idaho's post, either that or it was in the other illegal thread, but it is an excellent point. Every period of US history has had waves of immigrants from a particular country, and when they were immigrating into the US, US citizens felt the same way about them. Within a generation or two they were right there with the rest of us whining about the next group of immigrants.

So relax, have a Corona, maybe even put a wedge of lime in it, and ride the wave. Think of it as a way to make life interesting, instead of being bored to tears in middle class suburbia.

[Del Arroyo]

Actually, most Mexicans that I have known in the US, including some which I knew to be illegal, travel regularly between the US and their home towns. They will come and work for a season (lawn work) and spend a few months at home, or they will work one to three years at some jobs and then return to Mexico for a year or two, perhaps going back to the US later.

This is very common practice. For those who have enough starting money to pay their way in, it is not hard to get across the border.

[Marshal Murat]

When the Irish came here, they were here. When the Italians came here, they were here. When the Poles, Hungarians, Scots, French, whoever came here, it was because conditions in Europe weren't that great. They came in, got an ID, and badabing, they were Americans, legal as you or me.
Idaho can you give me the links to this to-ing and fro-ing?

It's just that the movements of illegal immigrants is so widespread. There are illegal immigrants from Corpus Christi to Seattle. They go by seasons, cutting lawns, picking oranges, washing dishes.
Its the very un-rootedness of this demographic, that they aren't being attached to America. They aren't contributing taxes, and are being exploited for cheap labor. While I'm not the great human activist that I sometimes wish I could be, but they are being exploited. Cheap labor to the level of slavery. It ain't great.
So, while it may blow over in a generation or two, I think this is a different wind.

[Idaho]

Its the very un-rootedness of this demographic, that they aren't being attached to America. They aren't contributing taxes, and are being exploited for cheap labor.
I don't have any links to the movement of populations from and to the US. My information mainly comes from literary accounts of immigrants in the past to-ing and fro-ing as well as my own ancestors going from Austria to England to US to Israel, etc. Not to mention the pattern of immigration to the UK at the moment from Poland with people coming and going, some staying, some not.

I'm not sure where people get the idea the Mexicans aren't contributing. Do you not like your vegtables, restaurants, laundry, gardening cheap?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Yes, most Mexican immigrants are here to earn some money. But in doing so, they're destroying the living wage most non-college educated Americans can hope toearn. They don't respect our laws, they don't learn the language, and frankly, Europeans know very little about this issue.


Actually Don, you'll find Europe faces exactly the same pressures from illegal immigration and it provokes all the emotions and issues that you have articulated.

There is also the added complication here that many people consider legal immigration a bad thing - that is, immigration between countries within the EU to work is legal, but also engenders many of the economic/cultural fears you note. Anger and frustration in many parts of Europe, both from immigrants and from residents is very near the surface.

For example, the UK put a ban on migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria (both new and otherwise full members of the EU) because of fears at home that wages would be undercut/social security overwhelmed even more than when the Polish were admitted. The fact that most Eastern European immigrants can actually count and want to work, as opposed to many poorly educated residents didn't seem to factor into the equation. This restriction is a lot like people from Montana being refused the option of moving to and working in California.

We don't have any good solutions yet either, so sharing ideas is helpful.

[Samurai Waki]

Don't mind the Mexicans, and I haven't really noticed that much of an increase in my taxes... plus there are some VERY VERY fine Latino women out here. Now, of course, I can't actively persue any of them, because... well, I do love my current spouse, and I dislike the entire prospect of an alimony, Paying Child Support, and only being able to see my kids every other weekend. But if your single, and dig brunettes with a permanent tan, sunny California is the place to be, as long as you don't mind celebrating Cinco del Mayo.

[Marshal Murat]

I'd rather have honest, minimum wage labor for my gardening, veggies, fruits, and whatever else illegal do.

Europeans, you have no idea about this.
1.You can't really comprehend this problem. As Americans, we can't just send them back over the border or round them up and send them over the border. Thats 'racist'.

[Sensei Warrior]

... plus there are some VERY VERY fine Latino women out here.

Here, here. Now we are finally getting to the benefits of illegal immigration. Very fine Latino women. There is nothing wrong with wading in and giving the genetic pool a nice healthy stir. :beam:

[Redleg]

I'm not sure where people get the idea the Mexicans aren't contributing. Do you not like your vegtables, restaurants, laundry, gardening cheap?

There is one major problem however. If an individual or group of individual, that being the illegal immigrants and the employeers of said illegal immigrants, are not contributing their fair share back into the community in the form of the taxes. Nor does employing cheap labor provide benefit to the community if the labor is being exploited because of their status. It creates more problems then it solves. It leaves a group of people in an exploited status and treates them as less.

I for one don't have a problem with immigrantion of people into the United States. If people want to improve thier lives by coming to the United States - by all means come, but do so within the scope of the laws of the nation you are coming to.

[Blodrast]

Actually Don, you'll find Europe faces exactly the same pressures from illegal immigration and it provokes all the emotions and issues that you have articulated.

There is also the added complication here that many people consider legal immigration a bad thing - that is, immigration between countries within the EU to work is legal, but also engenders many of the economic/cultural fears you note. Anger and frustration in many parts of Europe, both from immigrants and from residents is very near the surface.

For example, the UK put a ban on migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria (both new and otherwise full members of the EU) because of fears at home that wages would be undercut/social security overwhelmed even more than when the Polish were admitted. The fact that most Eastern European immigrants can actually count and want to work, as opposed to many poorly educated residents didn't seem to factor into the equation. This restriction is a lot like people from Montana being refused the option of moving to and working in California.

We don't have any good solutions yet either, so sharing ideas is helpful.

To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.

[yesdachi]

To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.
Knowing that others suffer from the same issue doesn’t help if the others don’t have a plan to fix it that works either.

[Don Corleone]

To further drive your point home, an interesting factoid (from the BBC) is that ALL EU countries instituted various sorts of work restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria, with the exception of Sweden and Finland.

Oh, and Don, the same problem is very much an issue in Europe as well, if for no other reasons (although there are) than the fact that the US is much more homogenous than Europe (a guy from Montana will have more or less the same values as a guy from, say Nevada), where you have so many cultures and different social, religious, and cultural values clashing all the time. Also, the US is mainly confronted with only ONE kind of legal/illegal immigration, namely the Mexicans, while in Europe there are many more different ones: the French have a certain set of problems with certain nationalities, the Germans have a different one, the Brits yet another one, etc...
My point is that things aren't as simple as you seemed to make them to be :)
I'm sure you're aware that variety, and the whole bunch of different societies in Europe, makes things only more complicated.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and BQ would fall outside the aforementioned sub-group, so I hope you understand I meant neither of you, and as I said, I am guilty of early generalizations.

Discussing your situations versus ours, comparing notes, looking at what works and what doesn't... all welcome discussions. Calling Americans a bunch of redneck racists because we're not thrilled our educational and public health systems are being plundered by a group with no respect for the law.. maybe no.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Lots to comment on here.

Illegal immigration has to be wrong. States are entitled to say who should and should not be allowed to work, and if necessary who can become a citizen. Breaking those rules is wrong. At least it is sin against hospitality. Unfortunately the problem will continue while there are big differences in the nation's economies. It is all very well for those of us who live in rich nations to decry this behaviour, but what would we do if we lived in a nation where, because of exchange rates, menial work in the US or the UK would enable us to save or send substantial amounts of money to our homeland? If you are honest, you will admit that the temptation would be strong. Add to that the unwillingness of locals to carry out certain jobs and the fact that employers are willing to give jobs to people they shouldn't and the problem is inevitable.

The US faces unique problems in dealing with the issue because it is a nation founded on immigration, much of which was illegal at the time. The nations success, in integrating people from different nations and cultures makes it difficult to close the door to newcomers. I am not suggesting that the success was complete, but the US does provided an example of how integration can work, and the idea that integration is important is part of the national psyche. Add to that the obvious geographical problem and certain historical difficulties (sorry MM - "Manifest Destiny" was American Imperialism) and the current situation is inevitable.

What are the solutions? Firstly, work to improve the Mexican economy. A rich southern neighbour will benefit US trade and reduce "push" factors. Secondly go after the employers. In the UK you can be fined for employing people who do not have the right to work here.

Thirdly be careful about how you view the people themselves. Daft notions such as the fact that Texas should be returned to Mexico only come from a sense of persecution. Before you make statements like "they don't pay taxes" or "they don't contribute to the economy" or "they force Spanish to be taught in schools" consider whether the statements are true and remember that you are grouping a whole load of people together according to their nation of origin. This will engender the type of response you get.

Do we have this problem in the UK. Yes and for similar reasons. Do we deal with it better? No. We are worse. As BG says, many here are prejudiced against legal immigrants not to say the grandchildren of legal immigrants.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Discussing your situations versus ours, comparing notes, looking at what works and what doesn't... all welcome discussions. Calling Americans a bunch of redneck racists because we're not thrilled our educational and public health systems are being plundered by a group with no respect for the law.. maybe no.

Absolutely right. :2thumbsup:


The US faces unique problems in dealing with the issue because it is a nation founded on immigration, much of which was illegal at the time.

This point intrigued me. I assume in my ignorance, that when many of my countrymen fled to the United States back in the early 19th century, that their immigration was at first "legal" in that there were few or no immigration controls - the country simply accepted all that came. Sometime during that century (possibly around 1840-50 as we know the stories of the inbound ships from Ireland being held offshore on occasion) there must have been an imposed immigration system.

When was it that immigration controls were set up - and was it at different times for Atlantic "Old World" immigrants than for southern "cross border" immigrants? In addition, if such controls were enforced first in the 1850's how did this affect imported slaves? Were they considered simply property (as one assumes) or did they have an immigration status that needed to be defined?

[Duke of Gloucester]

I haven't expressed myself clearly here. The migration itself was not illegal, although controls were in place to make sure those arriving were "useful" (for example shipping companies were fined if they landed someone who was disabled and likely to be a burden). It was the naturalisation that was done outside the law, with restrictions on who could become a citizen and length of time they had to stay before becoming Citizens just ignored (similar to giving amnesties now).

[Abokasee]

...or the mexian goverement has made a sort of "Civilian Invaision" in other words:
Spawn More Overlords - The Hive Mind probally a long way off but who ever knew a C&C 3 would ever come to be?

[Marshal Murat]

I just realized that
A previous poster was talking about their friends who stashed money away to take back home. Well, unless they are silly in putting it in their homes, they have to stash it somewhere, and that somewhere is a bank, where it is sent back into the economy as loans.

Also statements like contributing to the economy are kinda true, taxes (aside from sales tax) are not being paid. In the UK, they obviously don't talk about principals in Texas having to hire interpreters to talk to parents of students because they can't speak English.

[Banquo's Ghost]

In the UK, they obviously don't talk about principals in Texas having to hire interpreters to talk to parents of students because they can't speak English.

It would be useful to read a little more widely if this is an area of interest.

The UK has had this issue for quite some time. Many inner city schools have a majority of non-English speakers as students, let alone their parents - and not just one other language but four or five. Some schools have translators on staff.

[BigTex]

When was it that immigration controls were set up - and was it at different times for Atlantic "Old World" immigrants than for southern "cross border" immigrants? In addition, if such controls were enforced first in the 1850's how did this affect imported slaves? Were they considered simply property (as one assumes) or did they have an immigration status that needed to be defined?

Immigration controls were set up rather quickly for the old world immigrants. They were also easy to control since it required a ship to get here. Granted though there were some illegal's that got in, sto-aways and all. But other then that it was simple to keep the immigration under control. Even in the early 1900's there was stiff immigration regulation for the old world. Alot of problems occured for jewish germans trying to immigrate here.

As for slaves, they were illegal to import to America by 1850. That went into law in 1812 IIRC. It's written into the constitution. Any slave imported here was inherantly illegal, but since they were considered a property the problem would be against the owner. I don't recall what the punishment was but I doubt it was very good for the african-american.

Integration is always the problem when dealing with the illegal's from south America and primarily Mexico. Integration rarely happens with them, they usually end up just making little mexico's, and do not learn english. That creates alot of problems, communication is one of the most important part's of integrating into a society. Alot of the problem is most of them travel frequently to and from Mexico, so integration isnt even a neccesity.

Were as in times past, immigrants arrived here nearly broke and from a ship so traveling back to their homelands was never a problem. So integration was vital to their livelyhood let alone their daily lives. With Mexican illegal allien's they do not have this problem, they can travel to and from and so do not need to integrate as quickly or at all.

This is a major problem, for a start I think we need to start fining companies who use illegal alliens as a labor source. Start prosecuting those who abuse them by paying them less then minimum wage. We also need to start actually enforcing the border. The NG on the border should be armed (state problem not a federal), having gunmen attack them is even more reason to be armed. Though I do believe there is a wild eyed Sheriff in New Mexico who has alot of idea's on how to also deal with illegal alien's who are caught. Keep them here, punish them, teach them english and send them back.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Thank you for the information, BigTex. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

I have been enlightened.

[Kralizec]

Keep them here, punish them, teach them english and send them back.

Why bother with all that if you intend to send them back? :inquisitive:

I'm perfectly okay with sending back illegal immigrants, unless of course their country of origin is dangerous. Certainly not so with Mexico.

There's some discussion here in the Netherlands about what to do with a certain group of illegal immigrants here. What started out with about 26.000 immigrants who didn't qualify for a verblijfsvergunning ("stay permit") under the old vreemdelingenwet (something like "the alien act" except that vreemdeling doesn't carry the same negative association)
So these people were dismissed for their permit application even under the old procedure...but our lackluster institutions and ditto policy meant that they were never actually deported.
The legislation has been revised and is somehwat tougher, but they were dismissed under the old law already, so you'd expect no problems in deporting them after all this time.
However because of the last elections, there's now a majority in parliament who opposes further deportation and instead wishes amnesty for this group.

The common argument is that these people lived in uncertainty over 5 years about wether they could stay or be actually deported. Or that they've built up a life of their own while waiting here. But they had been dismissed and stayed here illegally in defiance of the law. They may have lived in uncertainty because they thought that there's a chance that they might get amnesty afterall- a risky gamble that they should suffer the consequenses for if it doesn't turn out the way they hoped.
Why is this issue even being debated ~:confused: :thumbsdown:

note: I acknowledge that there may be individual circumstances that makes it undreasonable to deport them. I'm not against strict and specific amnesty, but against general amnesty wich is what the political issue is about.