Zweihanders

[Cheetah]

Does anyone know (or has a source about) which other nations used zweihanders other then HRE and the Swiss?

I am asking this because at the moment zweihanders are under used. The HRE player simply does not need them as he has other cost efficient infantry and no other factions has them. So the idea would be to give zweihanders to other factions, however unfortunately the Swiss are not in the game.

Of course the problem is twofold:
- which faction has any historical base to get the unit? AFAIK HRE and Swiss, any others?
- which faction would benefit from it in terms of faction balance. IMO mostly Poland an Hungary as they have no late era specific inf units (only cheap heavy cavs but there are other western factions with good heavy cavs and pikes and musketeers).

[AggonyDuck]

Well anyone who hired Landsknechts could possibly have access to them.

[Orda Khan]

Are factions unbalanced?

......Orda

[RTKBarrett]

Are factions unbalanced?

......Orda

Just a case of some are more effective in certain eras than others...

[Cheetah]

Well anyone who hired Landsknechts could possibly have access to them.

The problem is that as far as I know only HRE has access to Landsknechts in the game.

[Cheetah]

Are factions unbalanced?

......Orda

Obviously some factions are more competitive than others.

In general the picture is not bad since there are many competitive factions in each era. The high era is better in this respect IMO since almost all of the factions are competitive except England, Turks, Mongols, Timurids (if you dont count rush) due to the weakness of archery (as these are the factions that heavily depend on archery).
In late western factions with pike+musket(arq.)+heavy cav combo dominate. Other factions receive little to compansate for this, though at least the muslim faction and russia get some moderately useful units (Moors and Egypt gets sudanese handgunners, good kills but short range; Turks get JHI and Jan. Muskt, very high cost can cripple the turksih players though; Russian gets cossack muskt, again high cost). On the other hand Hungary and Poland only receives a cheap heavy cav (hussars) as a late era unique unit (they get halbs and arquebus but that is not unique), and while hussars are indeed good and cost efficient, other western factions have good cav and pikes and musketeers. Also since both Hunagry and Poland losing it is faction specific heavy ranged cav in late era (i.e. Hungarian and Polish nobles respectively) there is very little point taking them.
England has a somehwat similar problem as it receives only a good cav (demi-lancers) and heavy billmen as faction specific late era unit, but assuming the archer problem to be fixed an arquebus+LB "spam" could be an efficient late era tactic for them.

[Fenix7]

Late era, 12k no musekeet units. Anyone tryed this? I'm asking this becaus atm matches are regulary played on high era 10k florins.

[Orda Khan]

It sounds pretty much like MTW. Pavs rule the archer stakes, some factions are disadvantaged by their unit abilities and a unit stat spreadsheet, recently published that will result in certain factions being used.
Archers should not be disadvantaged in Early or High and definitely not by a unit that should take ages to reload.
If HRE have an option that they can ignore due to there being adequate other options, yet some factions struggle for choice, it seems the factions are unbalanced

.....Orda

[RTKMercurius]

Zweihanders are useful infantry killers as they seem to work well vrs pikes, and most other infantry.... but they're too expensive and only one faction has them, other than Scots, and only in Late era, so they don't get used. It makes sense if they are more available and cheaper, as they should be more vulnerable to missiles than other infantry, therefore more of a risk in some situations....(dismounted gothics at 810 florins is a crazy price)....

However, archers are too underpowered, so there wouldn't be more balance with more and cheaper two handers in the game, just more rush strats using two handers...

I just rather doubt CA will add units to factions in the next patch... its less important than other changes, and I wouldn't want them distracted :laugh4:

would be nice, though... to have another interesting unit selection more available....

But I think dismounted polish nobles and boyars should get javs to throw.... :sweatdrop: sweat drops upon my hopeless dreams....

[RTKBarrett]

Zweihanders are useful infantry killers as they seem to work well vrs pikes, and most other infantry.... but they're too expensive and only one faction has them, other than Scots, and only in Late era, so they don't get used. It makes sense if they are more available and cheaper, as they should be more vulnerable to missiles than other infantry, therefore more of a risk in some situations....(dismounted gothics at 810 florins is a crazy price)....

However, archers are too underpowered, so there wouldn't be more balance with more and cheaper two handers in the game, just more rush strats using two handers...

I just rather doubt CA will add units to factions in the next patch... its less important than other changes, and I wouldn't want them distracted :laugh4:

would be nice, though... to have another interesting unit selection more available....

But I think dismounted polish nobles and boyars should get javs to throw.... :sweatdrop: sweat drops upon my hopeless dreams....

Mercys living in a dream world =D
But ure right in saying we dont want to distract ca for the future patch... fingers crossed we might get at least the weather option, eh.

[KrooK]

Poles did not used Zweihanders units. We prefered heavy cav and pike units -Actually Poland has very well pikes that time :)

[RTKBarrett]

Poles did not used Zweihanders units. We prefered heavy cav and pike units -Actually Poland has very well pikes that time :)

Poland overall is a very well polished faction in all eras... puts england to shame really :inquisitive:

[KrooK]

It's syndrome from VI. There England was overpowered - there were type that were winning more than 95% of games and CA couldn't do anything to stop it.

[Lavos]

Don't know whats wrong with England? They are still one of the best on early, very good on high, and only lack of muskets makes them lousy on late.

[Fenix7]

Their cavalry and billmens are bugged.

[RTKMercurius]

Cav are bugged? how's that?


English Knights are underpowered for their price... they have the stats of a Portuguese Knight that costs 700...

Hobilars are well worth the price, though... formed charge is a formed charge, no matter the cost....


As for my dreamworld... give me handgunners with two handed swords... give me pike units where the third line throws naptha.... give me some flaming naptha pigs....

or just more balance... :laugh4:

[Fenix7]

Cav are bugged? how's that?

No, not cavalry, just billmen are bugged. Seems I wasn't specific enough.

I'm wondering what 2nd patch witll bring. I doubt that balance issues will be addressed. It would be ok for me if at least critical buggs and exploits would be fixed.

[Pirate20]

Yeh CA give us back our flaming pigs :idea2: lol

[pike master]

aint nothing wrong with two handers they can even do a good job of taking horses down.

[Callahan9119]

yes there is, they have an awful kill rate that doesnt translate the stats to the gameplay, some say its an animation bug, they have a nice charge, but after that its over. test yourself, sword and shield vs armor piercing 2 handers, the 1 handed swords will decimate them every time :viking:

[Stig]

pwning by 2 handers:
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o263/Flimmeister/LlangrisiegeFlimStats.jpg

From this thread:
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/letitallhangout/viewtopic.php?p=3576&highlight=stats&mforum=letitallhangout#3576

[Callahan9119]

pretty cool, but one of your pavise xbows has only 2 kills, but i cant judge the unit based on that...i havnt played much of m2tw MP as of yet, but i noticed a weakness of 2 handers vs other inf in my first games. i went to check in many tests, only to have my initial reactions confirmed. i came here and saw people saying it was animations and should be fixed next patch...which coulda saved me a 100 tests :furious3:

Zhanders and units with 2 handed axe and poleaxe/halberd have a great charge, which i'm sure that 100 kill unit did alot of, but that is stated in the stats, what doesnt translater is the 17+ attack that many 2 handers have, after a charge against other infantry they just sink like rocks, without doing very much of anything to other infantry, after the charge

i suspect mailed knights are a better use of 680 florin, or dismounted imperial or feudal knights for cheaper and with more flexibility

germany has an embarrassment of riches, mounted or dismounted imperial knights are awsome for the price and can fill out even a late period army, but i suspect if they get this fixed in a patch, germany will become very fotm

[Stig]

Aye that's because 2handers are shock units. They are used for the charge, not for the fight afterwards. You try swinging around a 1,5 m (5 foot) sword when you have your friends no more then 1 meters away from you.

HRE is pretty good, but you need to use the units wisely ... I can't do that, which makes sure I suck with them, but others can ... and I lost more then once to them.

[Callahan9119]

there was a reason the swords were so long, pikes. the "shock" aspect of it is made by the charge bonus, it is seperate from other stats man

the attack stat of 2 handers isnt true in gameplay, to deny this means u havnt tested it :stop: but 2 handed swords like zhanders seem much better than those using axes/polearms

[Stig]

to deny this means u havnt tested it
Aye I never did, I played as HRE twice, they did their job, didn't win, but they got quite some kills when charging in. It were my archers that let me down in those two.

But I had another game using 2handers (I believe those Russian ones) and they were bad, they let me down, even tho they should have been my best units (stat wise)

[ElmarkOFear]

Probably the best way to use Zweihandlers is treat them as if they were a cav unit. Charge in, pull back, charge in, pull back. Though you will lose more men on the pull back than if it was a cav unit.

[Stig]

Probably the best way to use Zweihandlers is treat them as if they were a cav unit. Charge in, pull back, charge in, pull back. Though you will lose more men on the pull back than if it was a cav unit.
Aye that's what they are designed for. They last longer in a melee fight then cav, but will pull back slower.

[Carl]

2 Handed Swords DO NOT have an animation bug as such, however becuase they arn't bugged and the rest of the 2-handers are, they've had their stats heavilly nerfed to keep them about the same performance to price ratio as other 2-handers. If you fix other 2-Handers animations (as some SP bugfixers have, and as CA will), you have to raise Zweihanders stats to make them competetive. At this point they can go through S&S units that arn't AP (like VHI), with a 2:1/3:1 kill rate. You don't even need to cycle charge to get that. AND thats with a fixed Sheild Bug.

So overall most 2-Handers do have buggy animations, (Halberds and 2-Handed Swords are fine though), ad those that don't, (apart from JHI), are extremly weak compared to what working 2-Handers do.

So come the patch, expect to see them get much better, hopefully.

[CeltiberoMordred]

2 handed swords are underpowered anyway. And if the shield bug is fixed, it will be more evident (they will perform worse than now vs shielded units).

For my liking, Zweihanders, Forlorns and Dismounted gothic need armor piercing.

Forlorn needs another hit point too (30 men are too few for their stats).

Edit: I forgot Highland Nobles. They need ap too.

[Callahan9119]

yes carl your right, 2 handed swords are not bugged, but if they fix the axe/pole bug the stats will need to be improved to compensate, if/when it is fixed Zhanders will need stats and price increased, but nobody plays on late so i guess it dont matter ~:mecry:

[Stig]

Forlorn needs another hit point too (30 men are too few for their stats).
good point, as berzerkers in RTW yes

[Dionysus9]

Two handed swords were used in the british isles at times, and were often called Claymore swords. I'm not sure about the timing but you could Wikipedia it if you were interested Cheetah.

[Dionysus9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore

Pretty cool article.

[pike master]

claymores were hand and a half swords not processional two handed swords

i found a way to make two handed sword and halberd units fight better in prolonged melee but i can not divulge the information at this time

on the end battle summary posted in the thread note some of the kill loss stats on forlorn hope . very impressive. i know in mp they are not the best for obvious reasons of being too few but in campaign battles you wittle them down to a few men in a fight then after the battle about 60 to 70 percent of them heal.