Capo de Tutti Capi [Concluded] [Archive] - Page 7

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doc_bean

01-26-2007, 17:56

YEs! He got the information I was talking about, about Beirut being tagatalia (or how was it written again?). He was the one. So stop trying to lynch him or TS. If you want a mafia, pannonian or motep are the town's best chances.

So lets vote motep, so w can save a known pro-towner and a DETECTIVE! for a perhaps mafia.
vote:Motep

Then why did you go afte rme this round, Sasaki had already investigated me...

And WHY are you changing your vote YET AGAIN ?

Moros

01-26-2007, 18:00

Then why did you go afte rme this round, Sasaki had already investigated me...

And WHY are you changing your vote YET AGAIN ?
As I tought that probably noone was going to be in time for voting. So first I tought I'll vote TS so I was sure Sasaki would survive. However now I saw someone respond I tought maybe we can still win without having to sacrify.

I was desperate.

Also the last tally doesn't inlcude my last vote, the correct one is here:

Sasaki Kojiro = 5 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou)
The Stranger = 5 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 5 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros)
Abstain = 3 (Pindar)
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)
Warluster = 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)

doc_bean

01-26-2007, 18:01

vote: Motep

then.

UltraWar

01-26-2007, 18:02

Vote:Sasaki Kojiro

Moros

01-26-2007, 18:04

tally:
Sasaki Kojiro = 6 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou, Ultrawar)
The Stranger = 5 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 6 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros, docbean)
Abstain = 3 (Pindar)
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)
Warluster = 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)

doc_bean

01-26-2007, 18:05

Sasaski -6
Motep -6
TS -5

EDIT heh, beaten to the punch

Pindar

01-26-2007, 18:09

I'm switching my vote. Vote The Stranger. This is based on the long series of posts that precede and the Door's Strange Days:

" Strange days have found us
Strange days have tracked us down
They're going to destroy
Our casual joys
We shall go on playing
Or find a new town"

Sasaki Kojiro = 6 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou, Ultrawar)
The Stranger = 6 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat, Pindar)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 6 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros, docbean)
Abstain = 2 ?
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)
Warluster = 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)

Sasaki Kojiro

01-26-2007, 18:09

Unvote, Vote:Motep

Out of self preservation. Can't believe people are still voting for me, though I guess it's just ultrawar since the pm's were posted.

Sasaki Kojiro = 6 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou, Ultrawar)
The Stranger = 6 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat,Pindar)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 7 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros, docbean,Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstain = 2 (?)
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)

Big King Sanctaphrax

01-26-2007, 18:17

Vote: Motep. I've been working with Sasaki since the start of the game and he's fed me useful information, I really don't think lynching him is a good idea.

Moros

01-26-2007, 18:18

Before I forget:
select: sasaki

Edit:
Sasaki Kojiro = 6 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou, Ultrawar)
The Stranger = 6 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat,Pindar)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 8 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros, docbean,Sasaki Kojiro, big king sanctaphrax)
Abstain = 2 (?)
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)

Orb

01-26-2007, 18:23

Select: Sasaki
No offence meant, Redleg, but I don't think it's a good strategy for the town to keep the same person as director (a Don, who would also register as innocent, would have his luca freed up to allow the Mafia more kills)

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 18:38

select: Sasaki

change vote: Sasaki: Vote: Motep

Moros

01-26-2007, 18:42

Sasaki Kojiro = 6 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, The Stranger, Warluster, Xiahou, Ultrawar)
The Stranger = 6 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Proletariat,Pindar)
Lord Motep of Kendermore = 9 (Luigi VI di Fatlington, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Pannonian, Moros, docbean,Sasaki Kojiro, big king sanctaphrax)
Abstain = 2 (?)
Moros = 1 (JimBob)
Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)
Proletariat = 1 (Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 18:44

Seeing the latest development... I want to apologize to the town...

I made a mistake... my first one that almost cost 3 players their lifes... im sorry...

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-26-2007, 18:56

Unvote: Proletariat
Vote: Motep Lord of Kendermore

Really, that should be enough said.

Andres

01-26-2007, 18:59

The Stranger and Moros were walking at the cemetery. All of the sudden they heard a voice yelling: "What? They won't lynch these murderers? How is that possible? Gah! There is no justice in this town.

Redleg

01-26-2007, 19:11

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-26-2007, 19:13

Sorry, but I forgot to supply a reason for my vote of Motep. I still don't trust Sasaki, all that validity and stuff, but Motep is beyond dodgy. All the evidence is piling up against him.

Proletariat

01-26-2007, 19:17

Posting on a mobile so I can't really cut and paste the tally but I'm gonna switch my select: to Sasaki. Good to change up directors and it will keep the mafia from waxing our most likely detective.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-26-2007, 19:27

How many selects do I have? I'd like the protection. If you don't mind, Redleg.

Select:Sasaki

I think I need 4 or 5 more.

Louis VI the Fat

01-26-2007, 19:34

Unselect: Redleg

Select: Sasaki

Sorry Redleg, but protecting our most likely detective is a compelling rationale indeed.

Pannonian

01-26-2007, 19:35

Unselect: Banquo
Select: Sasaki

Redleg

01-26-2007, 19:40

How many selects do I have? I'd like the protection. If you don't mind, Redleg.

Select:Sasaki

I think I need 4 or 5 more.

Its a good call - a known townie detective is more important right now then the known townie accused of being a Don not once but twice. If I could vote this round I would pick you over me.

There is in my opinion an experienced player playing the remining Mafia Don this game, because from the messages posted the other two have given themselves away easily, and we are going to need to protect you over all others. The director is the safest spot for now for Sasaki

I got a feeling the trainwreck against Sasaki has been delayed this round, but someone has been organizing this attempt from the way the posts have been done. I suspect The Stranger could shed a lot of light on who was coordinating the effort so that that individual can be lynched.

Pindar

01-26-2007, 19:40

Unselect: Redleg
Select: Sasaki

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 19:48

Redleg... I dont understand your post.

You want me to tell who saved or accused Sasaki...?

Redleg

01-26-2007, 19:53

After the vote is tallied to much information that might taint the vote

Crazed Rabbit

01-26-2007, 20:00

Well, it seems so far that Sasaki is a detective - the PM seems genuine and noone is claiming he's not detective.

I suppose, since my initial vote for director is stepping down, as it were, and supporting Sasaki, I'll unselect: Redleg, Select: Sasaki.

Crazed Rabbit

Seamus Fermanagh

01-26-2007, 20:02

Day 5 voting concluded. Summary to follow.

Pannonian

01-26-2007, 20:06

Tally after post #1526

Proletariat - 1 (HughTower)
Sasaki - 5 (Warluster, Xiahou, CountArach, Byzantine, UltraWar)
The Stranger - 6 (Orb, Sigurd, Proletariat, Kagemusha, Ituralde, Pindar)
Pannionian - 2 (Motep, Kommodus)
Motep - 10 (Pannonian, Crazed Rabbit, Dutch Guy, Moros, Luigi VI, doc bean, Sasaki, BKS, The Stranger, Omanes)
Moros - 1 (JimBob)
Abstain - 2 (Cowhead, Ironside)

Director:
Banquo - 2 (Omanes, JimBob)
Omanes - 2 (Kagemusha, Hughtower)
Redleg - 7 (Crazed Rabbit, Xiahou, CountArach, Cowhead, Ituralde, Ironside, Proletariat)
Byzantine - 1 (Byzantine)
Kommodus - 1 (Kommodus)
Sasaki - 9 (Sigurd, Dutch Guy, Sasaki, Moros, Orb, The Stranger, Luigi VI, Pannonian, Pindar)

Kralizec

01-26-2007, 20:07

What happens if someone wins both votes? :clown:

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 20:14

I was thinking of that 2... it prolly wont happen now... but when the game gets smaller... i think it will happen... Seamus... what about that? I think he dies because a director is protected from lynching

Seamus Fermanagh

01-26-2007, 20:44

I'm gonna tell your mama
Yeh I'm gonna blackball your name
Ain't no way you'll go without me
Every chance I'll make you pay
-- Alice in Chains (Staley?)

Sunset Day Five

Redleg called the committee to order at a little after 5:00PM. He’d been chatting with various people all day, and knew that the discussion had ebbed and flowed. To prepare, he had a couple of ornate hand-carved wooden cases with him. Inside were the means to resolve any ties – it would turn out they were not needed.

The committee was called to vote by secret ballot, though many chose to remain in their seats. The first tally, for selection of a new director, was quickly resolved. Though Redleg's supporters had worked hard that afternoon to sway the undecided, a groundswell had clearly built for a fresh face to take his place. Sasaki Kojiro was selected as the director for days 6 and 7. Redleg congratulated him.

Redleg counted the lynch ballots especially carefully, with his designated guards dutifully checking the tally. What he thought might have ended as a two – or even three – way tie had been broken.

“Lord Motep of Kendermore,” Redleg announced. “You have been found guilty of treason against the City of Fatlington. This committee sentences you to be keelhauled. If you manage to survive that, you may, as tradition holds it, go free.”

“You’re not serious?”

Motep looked more stunned then scared.

“I told you I didn’t actually kill anyone. I only voted to lynch Beirut and he was mafia! I tried to Protect YOU, Redleg! Okay, well, I tried to help pevergreen too, but that was before I knew he was mafia…I…”

The full personal significance of Redleg’s announcement finally began to sink in. Motep stood quietly as the guards handcuffed him and then left the room under escort.

Fermanagh stood.

“I have some sad news, folks. While assisting some of the committee to attend the meeting, two of my officers discovered Banquo’s Ghost in his bathtub. He had slit his wrists sometime this morning. His note – and we confirmed he wrote it in a steady hand -- said he was tired of being scorned as a slipshod detective and tired of being the butt of everybody’s “nice-guy” jokes. Not sure what the finish of the note is – seems like an odd bit of poetry:

I drink to the general joy o’ the whole table,
And to our dear friend Banquo, whom we miss;
Would he were here! To all, and him, we thirst,
And all to all.

Anyway, that’s how his note ends. We’ll check him out as well.”

It was now time for the committee to see justice done. Motep was taken by the guards and brought down to the beach. At the same time, the remainder of the committee filed out, went down to the boardwalk, and walked to the end of the fishing pier where Kralizec had met his end.

Perhaps 50 yards from the end of the pier was a largish fishing trawler, it’s twin screws turning fairly rapidly to maintain its station relative to the pier against the tide and wave action. Rust-streaked and just a bit shabby, the “Alice In Chains” had seen better days.

Motep was taken out to the “Alice” in a launch. Once aboard he was shackled to four long chains and then, at a signal from Redleg on the pier, tossed over the bow of the little ship. Each of the 4 officers pulled up on one chain and began a slow steady walk, 2 to each side, towards the stern.

Keelhauling is a brutal punishment. The condemned holds their breath as long as they can while being dragged along the bottom of the ship. The bottom of a ship is rarely clean and the barnacles and other parasites encrusting the keel act like razors as the condemned is scraped along the underside of the vessel. Survival was almost impossible and even those who did were usually mutilated. Motep was a bit luckier in that the metal hull of the “Alice” was not home to nearly as many barnacles and pests as were the old wooden hulls of the vessels when this punishment was invented. Nor was the “Alice” so large a vessel that he was doomed to drown. Motep was cut, torn and bleeding and the pain was like fire across the front of his body, but the officers were nearly finished their slow walk.

Unfortunately for Motep, though the hull was metal and clean enough to survive, the Alice had one thing those old-time rag wagons had lacked – twin screws churning at 900 rpms. Motep was very quickly reduced to chum and the officers quickly tossed the chains – and what little came up with them – back into the sea.

The committee stared at the dissipating red cloud at the stern of the trawler, and then turned to move away. Just as they began to do so, a Narwhal broached the water near the end of the pier and, with a fantastic leap, skewered MarcusBrutus straight through the heart. It hung there for a split second…

<<Narwhals are exceptionally rare off the Jersey coast>> thought Redleg, puzzled.

…and fell back into the water. MarcusBrutus was dead before his body hit the pier.

It was a poor omen for the night to come.

OOC

The Butcher’s Bill to Date:

Attacked: Proletariat (N1), Sasaki Kojiro (N1), Redleg (N2), Moros (N3), theRTWGuru (N3)

Lynched: Kralizec (D2) [mafia don], Beirut (D3) [mafia made], pevergreen (D4), Lord Motep of Kendermore (D5)

Murdered: GeneralHankerchief (N1) [mafia luca], Stig (N2) [wise guy], AggonyDuck (N3) [wise guy], Major Robert Dump (N3) [mafia made], Caius Flaminius (N4), Sir Boo (N4), Sir Moody (N4), AndrestheCunning (N4)

Suicided: Ichigo, (D2) [townie], Tribesman (D2) [townie], Copperhaired Berzerker (N4), Banquo's Ghost (D5)

WoGged: MarcusBrutus (D5)

Tallies:

Director (Day 6 & 7) Selection:

Sasaki Kojiro = 11 (Crazed Rabbit, Dutch_Guy, Luigi VI di Fatlington, Moros, Orb, Pannonian, Pindar, Proletariat, Sasaki Kojiro, Sigurd Fafnesbane, The Stranger)

Redleg = 6 (CountArach, Cowhead418, Ironside, Ituralde, Redleg, Xiahou)

Banquo’s Ghost = 2 (JimBob, Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot)

Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot = 2 (HughTower, Kagemusha)

ByzantineKnight = 1 (ByzantineKinght)

Kommodus = 1 (Kommodus)

No Selection = 20 (Alexander the Pretty Good, Banquo’s Ghost, Big King Sanctaphrax, Destroyer of Hope, Doc_Bean, Drisos, Hepcat, Ignoramus, MarcusBrutus, Masy, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Papewaio, Peasant Phill, Reenk Roink, theRTWGuru, Tom_Hagen, Ultrawar, Warluster, Xdeathfire, Zalmoxis)

Lynching Votes:

Lord Motep of Kendermore = 10 (Big King Sanctaphrax, Crazed Rabbit, Doc_Bean, Dutch_Guy, Luigi VI di Fatlington, Moros, Omanes Alexandropalites the Idiot, Pannonian, Saskai Kojiro, The Stranger)
The Stranger = 6 (Ituralde, Kagemusha, Orb, Pindar, Proletariat, Sigurd Fafnesbane)

Sasaki Kojiro = 5 (ByzantineKinght, CountArach, Ultrawar, Warluster, Xiahou)

Abstain = 2 (Cowhead418, Ironside)

Moros = 1 (JimBob)

Pannonian = 1 (Kommodus)

No Vote = 18 (Alexander the Pretty Good, Banquo’s Ghost, Destroyer of Hope, Doc_Bean, Drisos, Hepcat, Ignoramus, MarcusBrutus, Masy, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Papewaio, Peasant Phill, Redleg [director], Reenk Roink, theRTWGuru, Tom_Hagen, Xdeathfire, Zalmoxis)

Night Five Begins. PM's due by 1400 EST 1/27/7. Warning: weekend schedules are not my own. I will try to keep to our 24 hour cycle as best I can but....family trumps gaming.

Caius

01-26-2007, 20:49

You didnt believed Motep.you must be ahsamed!

Seamus Fermanagh

01-26-2007, 20:53

What happens if someone wins both votes? :clown:

An immediate re-selection for a new director. The newly selected director is:

a) not yet serving, so the old director would off him.

b) not protected from a lynching only from night attacks.

If lynched or suicided, a new director will be selected immediately to fill the balance of the term.

Major Robert Dump

01-26-2007, 21:02

So one of two things have happened:

The 4th member of the Corleone family has fooled the rest of the town into thinking he is a rogue detective

or

My Don puts me in contact with the 4th member of our family, with whom I open a direct line of communication discussing my investigations and my concern for my Don's excessive posting habits and my contacts with townies who I am trying to screw over on protection groups. And the 4th member turns out to be a freakin cop.

Either way, its rich. Very rich.

-I have no relevant PMs to post for either argument because I deleted most of them as they came and just made little notes on paper in order to keep my box clear. I had no reason not to trust people on my "team," a mistake I made in my last mafia game where the entire town got blown up. I will learn from this mistake.

-I will not make my investigations public or speculate on peoples guilt/innocence simply because I think its in poor taste since I'm eliminated, and some people (including some who were eliminated) have engaged in excessive, pointless spamming of the thread, which makes it difficult to read and turns off new players and mature players. Grow up, people.

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 21:05

You have investigated Redleg... Haven't you?

Louis VI the Fat

01-26-2007, 21:52

You didnt believed Motep.you must be ahsamed!We didn't so much NOT believe Motep. We simply had no choice. Six thousand posts and page upon page of rubbish, nonsense and silly internal town strife immediately following last nights' murders prevented the town from constructive dialogue on whom to hang.

And I would rather not see that spectacle repeat itself :shame: :

You have investigated Redleg... Haven't you?

Pevergreen, I don't think I'm very popular with you right now. But I must pay you a compliment. You very nearly did get your exposer lynched the very next day. Something which most mobsters can only dream of. Well done.

Edit: one of your exposers. I'll give you your due credit, The Stranger.

The Stranger

01-26-2007, 22:13

And who is his exposer...?

Allright... You have it your way... I stop posting unconstructive posts...

Just this last to announce that :P

pevergreen

01-27-2007, 02:44

Good work Luigi, you fooled me.
Sasaki bluffs his way out. Nicely Done.

The Stranger...would be nice to see you dead, just because you've been after me.

But the thing that screws me over, is that if Sasaki isnt pro-mafia, then why is he listed as it in my role pm?

Could it be an attempt by seamus to balance the game? But the townies band together! Its hard enough for the mafia already.

Im not making any of it up, but i doubt any of you believe me.

I also believe that Seamus should change the rules, so the dead cant post.

And TS gets banned from posting :laugh4:

Anyway, if i was making this up against Sasaki, why would i put him in contact with my made?

None of this make sense. I demand an explanation when/if Sasaki dies Seamus!

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-27-2007, 03:24

lol Act of God.

The Jersey Shore's seen worse. :laugh4:

ByzantineKnight

01-27-2007, 04:10

Sasaki, is there a way to raise PM limit without changing User Group?

I'd kinda like a larger PM box, lol.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 05:02

Let's bring this out of pm's and into the public. Redleg and luigi are doing some weird things and I'd like an explanation.

Just to let you know Redleg is trying to make a case against you and trying to get me to give up information. From what I've heard their's a lot of people who link he is the last Don, but that's all heresay. Just thought I'de warn you.

Now I have had finally a discussion with The Stranger that I could understand. I kind of see his point about Sasaki now that its not so convoluted with the spam. If your still interested in making a case against him I need information. Whatever you are willing to give. I think if I have enough information I can find the weakness in the information posted by him in the thread to actually get him to stumble - but I need the intel that will allow me to do this.

Tell me what you know and I'll try to fill in the gaps that I know of. Sir Don.

So still working on that rumor that was planted by Major Dump - rather interesting. TS informed me of alot of different things - and I am trying to confirm his story. That requires information that from another source that is independent of his. So decide to help lynch Sasaki if you have information that contradicts what he posted in the thread or not? Your choice.

Well that's just it I haven't read anything that the Stranger has claimed cause most of his posts are rubbish. If you tell me what he claimed then I might be able to help you plus what MRD said.

Ichigo

Then I will get back to you in a day or two, because its going to take a bit to sort out what TS actually stated in the thread and what he has given me for now and what he has promised to provide me.

I started pm'ng luigi and redleg asking them what's up:

Of course it follows. What you're playing at?
I'm asking people if they can confirm rumours or not.
You ask me about Warluster, I poke around asking about you and everybody else.

Why are you getting so nervous about that?
That doesn't follow. Are you pro town or not?

If you think I'm lying then you should now why. So why don't you tell me?
What kind of cryptic answer is that? If I knew why you were I wouldn't have asked you.

Sasaki

Why don't you tell me?
Why are you lying to me?

Oh, TS is convinced of your innocence allright. :beam:

Redleg and TS hate each other with a passion, I think he was hoping to lynch TS.

I haven't heard from Pannonian for a while.

I'm still trying to figure TS out. I'd like to be more sure of his innocence. You have any more pm's from him.

I feel I should be up to date on what Redleg and Pannonian have been doing behind the scenes as well. Redleg seemed eager for a tie between me and TS originally.

Sasaki

Oh that - from that conversations I think I figured out who the last Don is. Because the follow-ups with those two confirmed my suspecions about a statement made by Pannonian. You know using their anger at you to milk a few other responses out of them. It also place The Stranger as something other then the townie that he claims to be, but I don't think he is mafia, just a wiseguy that was approached early to become part of K's family.

So I am waiting on Pannonian to respond on something also - because of his statement about the evidence would condemn him to a lynching. To bring up in the next voting round.

Do you have anything specific on Pannonian? In your detective role have you investigated him?

I am just waiting on a PM in response that confirms from him to confirm it.

[QUOTE=Sasaki Kojiro]
He struck me as town. I'd have to see the evidence first.

He should be investigated don't you think.

I'd also like to knew what you and luigi are talking about and what this means:

Again how do you gain information. You find out who wants to destroy you, and you caiter to their fear and desire. Ichigo was the point of contact given by The Stranger. So I played into him to get information. Again notice how he thinks I am the Don. Rather interesting isn't?

Just to let you know Redleg is trying to make a case against you and trying to get me to give up information. From what I've heard their's a lot of people who link he is the last Don, but that's all heresay. Just thought I'de warn you.

ratfink?

Ratfink is a term to strike an interest. Nothing other. If they were mafia it would imply the query is about wether they felt you had set them up.

That particuler query leads me to the conclusion about who might be the last don. It seems Ichigo has a different conclusion - but he offed himself at the beginning of the game. A simple matter of whom to investigate. You could do both me and Pannonian and that will determine a town victory if I am right. And if Ichigo is right it would still determine a town victory.

He doesn't tell me why he is pm'ing luigi, but a few seconds later I get my message back to me with this note attached to the top:

Here is the last message he sent me. My reply to follow

What is your goal here?

Motep

01-27-2007, 05:14

at least I died with my dignity............................:bigcry:

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 05:18

Game over, Sasaki.

Unselect: Sasaki

Vote: Sasaki

Why don't you tell the townies what's going on with your family, hey?

Motep

01-27-2007, 05:18

Game over, Sasaki.

Unselect: Sasaki

Vote: Sasaki

Why don't you tell the townies what's going on with your family, hey?

ummm...its night time

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 05:21

Look it's simple. If you were townie you'd have made your argements publically. You wouldn't have secretly pm'd trying to contrive a case.

Redleg

01-27-2007, 05:21

Let's bring this out of pm's and into the public. Redleg and luigi are doing some weird things and I'd like an explanation.

What was happening Sasaki is a comparing of notes on what information we could gather concerning the previous discussion. It seems that as allegations were made earlier in an inconsistent manner, I overlooked some critical information. That is what was being discussed. Now I had some guesses about the duplicity that was being played by some, and wanted to confirm it one way or the other.

What is your goal here?

To discover the truth. Could I determine if Pannonian, Pevergreen and the Stranger were actually telling a lie in order to get you lynched or were they telling the truth and you have been using duplicity to ensnare us all.

In your rush you have made a critical mistake, because the simple fact is, the amount of evidence available was inconclusive. Now me and luigi have figured out a few things, are they conclusive as of yet, maybe, especially given your attempt here.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 05:23

I'm sure it will be as conclusive as yesterdays. Post away.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 05:23

Look it's simple. It is indeed, Wolf. :yes:

Motep

01-27-2007, 05:25

Look it's simple. If you were townie you'd have made your argements publically. You wouldn't have secretly pm'd trying to contrive a case.

is that arguements? I really didnt use the grapevine...and youll find out in a couple days that I am indeed a townie.

And why the hell did you have to keelhaul me with the motors running! Thts just sick!!!

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 05:26

is that arguements? I really didnt use the grapevine...and youll find out in a couple days that I am indeed a townie.

And why the hell did you have to keelhaul me with the motors running! Thts just sick!!!

Redleg wrote your lynch scene.

Motep

01-27-2007, 05:36

Redleg wrote your lynch scene.

sooo...its sick!

Redleg

01-27-2007, 05:38

I'm sure it will be as conclusive as yesterdays. Post away.

As stated in the PM, I await a PM that will either confirm or deny my conclusion. Now it seems for a individual that is sure of their innonence you are in a rush to figure out what information I have or don't have? Why is that Sasaki?

Now when I have an hour or two to write down all of my findings and conclusion I will gladly present it, but right now its just a thought, some facts, and a couple of things to double check.

But I will leave you with a small thought to ponder. For a man who used duplicity to ensnare a few others (as claimed earlier by yourself) into revealing their roles so they could be lynched - you are rushing to attempt to prevent a gathering of information? Realize that the information that I was looking into could very well clear up the accusation made and left hanging by three indivduals.

Yes I was using a age old tactic in gathering information. Attempting to convince the three that I was indeed looking into their allegations to bring a case against you. That I had suspecions based upon earlier comments in the thread and PM, just made the arguement I was using more truthful then not. I find it interesting that you seem to be upset that I might be wanting to investigate your activities for just such an activity. If you are as innocent as you claim my attempt would of not born fruit and I would of dropped the issue completely. However your own neverousness has actually done you more harm then good.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 05:48

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 05:54

Seamus Fermanagh

01-27-2007, 05:58

Redleg

01-27-2007, 05:59

As you recall, I had to defend myself yesterday against something that started exactly like this. I posted the pm’s in this thread to derail the same process. If you were awaiting a pm, then why did luigi post in giant text "The game is up Sasaki" and vote for me? What conclusion am I supposed to draw from this? You've obviously made up your minds.

However in your defense you made a critical mistake that was not spoted right away, I actually missed it several times, and luigi pointed it out to me, that was exactly what we were discussing when you asked what we were discussing, I ignored your question because well frankly I didn't need to tell you what I was discussing at the time. In your rush here you only confirmed my suspecion (SP) of your attempt at duplicity, and it seems you confirmed what luigi was telling me, because of that rush. People who are attempting to hide things normally give themselves up, I made a mistake because of that, and you posted it thinking that it would break up and defeat the information I do have.

To get the complete write-up you will have to wait until I have all my facts and thoughts down on paper, and have a change to sort through 50 PM to insure that my information is accurate, then the cross check in the thread itself, and (yes I will be looking at the date stamp of the edit.)

I have to hand it to you, you wove a very complex weave to untangle, and I am not sure its completely untangled, but your rushing to get me to come forward helps confirm much of what I learned during the time I had available at work.

Redleg

01-27-2007, 06:05

Reminder to all and sundry.

Use of screenshots :shame: -- even if done privately -- is forbidden by the rules of the game. ~:( I will WOG immediately anyone who I can confirm is doing this from this point forward. :yes: Please heed this. Thank you.

Games have to have rules, otherwise they become reality -- and that's just not a pretty thought.

Rest assured no screen shots have been used by me in my looking at information. Especially since I will be writing this on my home computer versus the one I am current at - which is my work computer.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 06:12

Redleg, I've never been patient with regards to accusations:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1263549#post1263549

@Seamus: I won't post any screenshots.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 06:15

Reminder to all and sundry.

Use of screenshots :shame: -- even if done privately -- is forbidden by the rules of the game. ~:( I will WOG immediately anyone who I can confirm is doing this from this point forward. :yes: Please heed this. Thank you.

Games have to have rules, otherwise they become reality -- and that's just not a pretty thought.We're not using any, nor asking for any.

Are these (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402637&postcount=1390) screenshots?

Redleg

01-27-2007, 06:38

Redleg, I've never been patient with regards to accusations:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1263549#post1263549

@Seamus: I won't post any screenshots.

Past games are irrevelant to this one, and no accusation was made in public. All I was doing was a simple look into facts by asking those who made the orginal allegation with a followup from some information gathered from that. You jump because it must of spooked you. Spooking because of a simple investigation using a little duplicity to get their facts is a tell to your actual role in this game. The only individual that is making this an accusation right now is yourself, you should of waited.

Crazed Rabbit

01-27-2007, 07:37

Um, to double check - right now, Redleg, you seem to think Sasaki is guilty because of his rush to post your guys' PMs here, but you will have more...evidence...shortly?

CR

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 08:27

We're not using any, nor asking for any.

Are these (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402637&postcount=1390) screenshots?

From a post further up in the thread. It's right there if you want to look at it yourself. Quoting isn't convenient for what I was showing. He means of role pm's that kind of thing.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 08:33

Past games are irrevelant to this one, and no accusation was made in public. All I was doing was a simple look into facts by asking those who made the orginal allegation with a followup from some information gathered from that. You jump because it must of spooked you. Spooking because of a simple investigation using a little duplicity to get their facts is a tell to your actual role in this game. The only individual that is making this an accusation right now is yourself, you should of waited.

They clearly aren't irrelevant. I'm the same person I was then. And this is a direct quote from you:

So decide to help lynch Sasaki

In private

Direct quote from luigi:

Vote: Sasaki

You are being duplicitous. And don't think the only reason I called you on it was self defense, I'm very interested in finding mafia, and this whole accusation smells of mafia. If you were simply looking up facts you wouldn't have lied. You didn't want me to know you were looking up facts, you distinctly tried to keep it from me. Why did you do that if it's "a simple investigation"?

Redleg

01-27-2007, 09:28

They clearly aren't irrelevant. I'm the same person I was then. And this is a direct quote from you:

Yes indeed it is - for the simple reason I wasnot in those games. The past has no bearing on the present in this case.

Partial quotes are a weak effort in attempting to respond. That quote happens to be the message sent to an individual that I wanted to get information from. It has no bearing on anything other then the fact that I wanted information. A basic appeal to the individual to give me information. An emotional appeal in fact, attempting to gather information by appealling to the goal they had alreadly in the thread - to lynch.

You are being duplicitous. And don't think the only reason I called you on it was self defense, I'm very interested in finding mafia, and this whole accusation smells of mafia. If you were simply looking up facts you wouldn't have lied. You didn't want me to know you were looking up facts, you distinctly tried to keep it from me. Why did you do that if it's "a simple investigation"?

Sure I was - something that you yourself have admitted to doing. Since I believe you to be false, that would explain the reason for why you were lied to. Now both of us claim to be looking for mafia, and now both of us have admitted to use duplicity to track down the mafia scum in this game. Once again the accusation is one of your making, not mine. Who brought a discussion that was ongoing between me and luigi to the thread? Was it me? Was it luigi? Or was it yourself?

Your attempt here very much smells of an individual who is wanting to distract any review of your previous posts in this thread. Frankly I have alreadly done so. As you can probably tell I have spent the last 3 hours in this thread reviewing, also going through my PM and saved PM text files. Now its time for a little sleep, followed by some proof reading. Don't be in such a rush to reach a conclusion - most likely someone will attempt to murder me and luigi tonight. The voting for the next lynch doesn't happen for a while. Plently of time to disprove any comments I might or might not make.

pevergreen

01-27-2007, 09:43

Right. Just a note to you Sasaki fans.

Fatal mistake, pever. You messed up the quote tags here. When you quote a pm to copy and paste it puts QUOTE in caps, not lower case. It's only lower case if you type it manually, as in when you are fabricating the pm.

Taken from this post

We're not using any, nor asking for any.

Are these screenshots?

From the Middle of Sasaki's big PM post (#1404104 is what i got doing this)

Do you have anything specific on Pannonian? In your detective role have you investigated him?

I am just waiting on a PM in response that confirms from him to confirm it.

[quote=Redleg]

So according to Sasaki's logic, all those pm's are fake.

:bow: Undone you have been?

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 12:12

~:confused: Pever what's that all about...

Seriously... when Sasaki is the Wolf I told you he was... I want an apology... I almost got killed... I gave you Pever as Don, MRD as Made, Told you Kralizec was a Don, Beirut a made... And Sasaki the Wolf...

And I get voted against for... SPAMMING... :shame:

I won't join this discussion, Pever and Pannionian shot to early messing up my gameplan, I had to rush in to back them up otherwise they'd be massacred by Sasaki... though the battle was close, I lost... I admit defeat and retreat in shame, REDLEG AND LUIGI, finish the ******* for me please.

HughTower

01-27-2007, 12:14

Well, get slammed by work, don't turn up on the thread for 36 hours, & sudenly have to wade through Moby Dick. I'm also beginning to think quality rather quantity of information is crucial here.

My brief thought are:

Anything posted by pevergreen or TS is too confusing & irrational to truly understand - plus pevergreen's role as Don is self-admitted, but not confirmed by autopsy yet. My well documented distrust of Pannionian hangs on pevergreen's autopsy.
Redleg does a lot of analysis or, more accurately, summation, but what are his opinions? See Ituralde or Luigi's posts for ideal concision & precision of argument.
Seamus has only WOGed 1 person - which mean there are many lurkers out & about. For the sake of the town, these are the people we need to be worried about, surely?

Lurkers?

No Vote = 18 (Alexander the Pretty Good, Destroyer of Hope, Doc_Bean, Drisos, Hepcat, Ignoramus, MarcusBrutus, Masy, Papewaio, Peasant Phill, Reenk Roink, theRTWGuru, Tom_Hagen, Xdeathfire, Zalmoxis)

I've edited out Motep, Banquo's Ghost & Redleg from that quote.

As far I can see there are some longtime Mafia players out there in that list, many of whom aren't contributing except very occasionally (or just enough to avoid WOGing).

My call then is to any on that list who don't have the time to contribute (which is understandable) & but supposed to be helping the town, please suicide yourselves asap. That way we can focus on the remaining mafia (x5?), & their wiseguys (some of whom might well be promoted to Made by now).

@Crazed Rabbit - this is a response from about 5 pages back to a couple of points you made or asked of me:

Re: my pursuit of Proletariat, I'm not aware that Ichigo has admitted to protecting (or is it trying to kill) Proletariat on N1 - can she confirm this? If so, fulsome apologies & bouquets of virtual flowers shall ensue.
Re: Pannionian's double suicide request. I am not a detective, just a townie. It was an empty promise/offer that he knew no-one would/should accept, which is why he was safe to make it. It was this tactic, plus the PM from MRD he revealed that made him appear so suspicious.

Right, that's it for now, see y'all at sunrise.

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 12:25

I know Pever is a don... he's been investigated by a detective... A rogue detective... and as we know a rogue investigates slow but shows roles instead of guilty/criminal or innocent... and Pever turned out to be a don, MRD a made and beirut also a made...

doc_bean

01-27-2007, 12:26

I did vote, but many of those you mentioned do have a tendency to lurk, too bad random lynching seems like a very bad diea at this point.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 12:38

Yes Pevergreen, that was one of Sasaki's fatal mistakes. When you quote his name, or mine, in the way you did, indeed only the first names 'Sasaki' or 'Luigi' are quoted. You were right.
Sasaki's screenshot of it shows he is wrong.

Undone you have been? :bow:Yes, Sasaki has been undone. :bow:

Sasaki was awfully quick to PM Seamus and ask him to state it is forbidden to use screenshots, wasn't he?

He (and our noble host) need not worry though, our case isn't based on any. Why is it that whenever Sasaki is questioned he and his group immediately start to scream that no screenshots (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402749&postcount=1410) may be used? Afraid of something, old chaps? Got anything to hide?

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 12:39

I wonder if Kralizec and Beirut's Tataglia family already realises that it was Sasaki The Wolf who ratted them?

:sweatdrop:

ByzantineKnight

01-27-2007, 12:55

I wonder if Kralizec and Beirut's Tataglia family already realises that it was Sasaki The Wolf who ratted them?

:sweatdrop:

What do you mean, they were both lynched and Sasaki had nothing to do with it...

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 12:59

What do you mean, they were both lynched and Sasaki had nothing to do with it...

But where the evidence that led to their lynching came from?

ByzantineKnight

01-27-2007, 13:04

But where the evidence that led to their lynching came from?

From luigi VI di Fatlington

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 13:11

From luigi VI di Fatlington

So you are saying that Luigi revealed the Tataglias and is now accusing Sasaki from doing that? Do you have evidence to support that?

ByzantineKnight

01-27-2007, 13:14

So you are saying that Luigi revealed the Tataglias and is now accusing Sasaki from doing that? Do you have evidence to support that?

I posted before, he was the one who offered his expert opinion that it was a dutch/flemish person, he was the strongest voice in approval of Kralizec's lynching...

I'm not accusing him, i'm just stating that Sasaki did not turn them in.

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 13:15

Allright thanks for your wiew.:yes:

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 13:31

But Ichigo posted the Andres PM... and Ichigo was Sasaki's contact... So Sasaki might as well have had alot to do with it behind the scenes.

When People look through the killing.

Moros, attacked by white glove.
MRD, killed by white glove.
Sir Boo, killed by white glove.
Stig, killed by white glove.
Sir Moody, killed by white glove.

Now, here it goes, Pevergreen told Sasaki who was in his mafia. When Sasaki ratted out Pevergreen he probably told the White Glove Mafia that MRD was Pevergreens made. Because Pevergreen had protection arranged by multiple groups (I also tried to set one up but failed) he choose not to kill Pevergreen but MRD. Moros told Sasaki of his role, next night, he was attacked by the White Glove Mafia. Stig, Sir Boo and Sir Moody probably refused to join the White Glove Mafia.

Kralizec and Beirut might have been ratted out or maybe we were lucky. But one fact remains, the White Glove Mafia is alive and is killing. Sasaki, no longer working for Pevergreen is probably working for them. His socalled pro-town behaviour is Pro-White-Glove.

Aggony Duck also told Sasaki his role and of his protection group, Sasaki probably set the kill up himself.

3 players who told Sasaki their role and could form a danger against him are attacked or killed.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 13:51

i'm just stating that Sasaki did not turn them in.To 'rat' someone implies you didn't publically turn them in. Sasaki destroyed them behind the scenes.

I got my information about Kralizec / Beirut from Big King Sanctaphrax. BKS had used his good relationship with Beirut (they're co-moderators of the frontroom) to infiltrate this family. Sasaki and BKS shared a lot of information. but I do not know the role of BKS, nor his relationship with Sasaki.
Most of the info on the two first, now destroyed families came from Sasaki. BKS and I shared information about them, I think BKS will be very surprised to read our case against Sasaki. Then again, he also doubts him, so I hope he can be persuaded.

My first contact with BKS was this:

Hi Louis,

Sasaki says you're a townie, which is why I'm sending this. I've managed to infiltrate one of the mafia families, by pretending to be a wise guy, through Beirut. He's a made/Luca, and Krazilec is his don.

Here's the most recent PM he sent me.

I'm getting pretty desperate here. By the looks of it I'm going to get lynched.

I know Beirut convinced you to unvote me, now I ask you to vote for Reenk Roink. It's going to be close and I need all the support I can get.

And I'll confirm your suspicion: yes, I am Don Tataglia. I hope I can trust you with that knowledge.

-Kralizec

Please, vote to have him lynched.

I was already suspecting Kralizec, through text analysis, but I wasn't quite sure. This PM however convinced me I was on the right track and I went public. My information about Beirut came from BKS.

ByzantineKnight

01-27-2007, 13:58

Ok, thanks.
Sorry for taking up your time.

Moros

01-27-2007, 14:05

ho,ho,ho! What's going on? What are we discussing I see that sasaki is being accused again, but could someone sumarize why? And stuff. This game is getting way over my head. Pfft

Redleg

01-27-2007, 15:40

Well it seems instead of being able to take more time to insure I had all the facts, the ability to cross check, and yes even the ability to bounce information across the parties concerned to verify information. I will have to post now instead of latter.

Now some will ask what stirred me into thinking that Sasaki could playing both the town and the mafia against each other for a victory condition that was different then the rest of us was this comment from pevergreen

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1395213&postcount=627

an aside, Now The Stranger raises a lot of suspicion in the following posts, which after we settle the issue on Sasaki will need to be re-evaluated.

Now pevergreen posted a partial description of his role PM here.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1400912&postcount=1219

Now in this PM is made is identified as Major Robert Dump. Lets remember this for a now because Major gives us a vital clue after his death.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1401636&postcount=1249

Hugh you are reading far, far too into my PM and not realizing with every mafia family also comes goals of individual self preservation.

Now to the information that I lost track of because I focused on a critical mistake of that individual instead of the information he was actually providing.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402103&postcount=1292

In that thread a quote that Pannonian stated comes from the original pre-edited post of pevergreen which I first missed and this is what liugi and I were discussing when Sasaki decided to post in the thread.

The last one has been edited out. Because of this:

You, and only you from your family, are aware of a special “friend” of the Mafiosi of Fatlington. Though not a member of your family...

Your death is part of the victory conditions for the other Dons, and will also severely limit your families chance of success as creating a new Don is time-consuming.

Followed by The Stranger’s post here

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402117&postcount=1298

Now in this post he exposes the Don Corleone role message. Where the statement that was also being discussed by luigi and I was this one.

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

“Get some sleep” OR if solo “kill so-and-so” or “investigate so and so”

Investigations:

If investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing.

Corleone Luca = GeneralHankerchief

Corleone Made = Major Robert Dump

The Wolf = Sasaki Kojiro

Now I initially dismissed this because I believed Sasaki’s follow-up post. What I missed in that post was this comment’s of the Stranger

Moros told Sasaki of his plans and of his role, an important one so it seems because he was attacked. AggonyDuck told Sasaki of his plans and of his strong group able to kill and protect, Aggony's death was a bitter blow to the town. The attack on GH can't be explained but I do think that I have an explanation for MRD's death. Sasaki first worked for Pevergreen and Pevergreen without a doubt told him who his family was. When Sasaki switched sides, MRD was killed. Sasaki ratted MRD to Pannonian and Pannonian ordered a kill, or maybe Sasaki did it himself.

Then we add this post in the discussion from Kalizec

The thing is, Moros, me and my underlings agreed from the start on to keep our family name a secret to outsiders. We never mentioned the family name to anyone we approached for recruitment or services. My family name only turned up in the beginning when Seamus started the thread, and when you posted your earlier remark.
By the number of mafioso lynched and some other information, any thinking townie can conclude that at least 2 of the original families have been crippled. But how can you know their names? You could only know the name of one family through your contacts, and could only deduce the name of the other one (mine) if you're closely related to the third family (the Barzini) wich has managed to stay clear so far.

Thanks for supplying another Mafia candidates in a indirect way Kalizec this will be evaluated latter but it will help even in this write up.

Now Sasaki’s first response to the allegations was this statement.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402405&postcount=1349

Very plausible and one that I initially believed counted the above mentioned comments of the Stranger’s post 1298, but in my skimming I missed the importance of the quoted paragraph from that post. Sasaki comments answers the generalities of the strangers post but not the specifics of the quoted paragraph. Coupled with the comment from pevergreen[b] about victory conditions – my suspicion of Sasaki was renewed upon a review of the thread after the vote.

Now Lord Motep steps into the fray and this is another post I missed in my initial scan of the rapid fire exchange that was ongoing.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402412&postcount=1350

Yes, we all know that Pevergreen is guilty. Very Guilty. And new evidence is pointing at pannonian. I have nothing new to add on the situation, but I will simply state that I am fairly sure he is guilty.

Vote: Pannonian

Now this in itself is not much evidence, but wait for the conclusion I will show where it is revelant.

Now Sasaki response to a question posed by Pannonian which I thought initially was not important until I go back to the original post by Pevergreen

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402575&postcount=1370

Not sure why he bought it so easily.

When I looked at the message again, it brings to possibilities to the front. 1) the stranger just got caught in a lie, or 2) Sasaki played pevergreen into giving up information. Both were the possibilities that I originally went with. Now however when I went back to review, and once again was discussing just this issue with liugi this statement rose a third possibility – Sasaki might not be telling us the truth.

Now once again pevergreen jumps into the discussion. Again my first assumption is that he is after Sasaki because of the lynching. So in my reading I only scanned the post versus looking at it in a more precise way.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402613&postcount=1384

Now Sasaki you responded with this comment.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402631&postcount=1386

God that must have taken you a long time. At least you've gotten better at imitating my style, except in that last one. It's funny how you didn't post these earlier but "just happened to find them". Accept it pever, you fell for my trap and I got lynched. No need to hold a grudge this long.

Now that was a good redirect and I initially bought it as valid in the skim, but lets add this PM of yours which is one of the last you sent before rushing to the thread to confront me and luigi because we happen to be discussing this very issue once again because we had concerns on your role in the game.

Honesty

Certain events lead me to believe you have not been entirely honest with me.

Sasaki

My initial response.

How so.

You don't believe the rumor that Major Dump attempt to plant now do you? A simple investigation will solve that particuler issue.

Okay to be more accurate lets also use the last PM sent by me to you. Not the accidentally sent one that was intended for luigi

================================================================================
From : Redleg
To : Sasaki Kojiro
Date : 2007-01-27 03:50
Title : Re: Honesty
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the last message he sent me. My reply to follow

So you are saying you think Pannonian is the last Don? I don't have any results on him.

Sasaki

I am about 75% sure of it, I am still awaiting the email from him that will either confirm my suspecion or force me to another trail. If you have not investigated him yet, that would be the course to take I think.

He struck me as town. I'd have to see the evidence first.

I'd also like to knew what you and luigi are talking about and what this means:

Just to let you know Redleg is trying to make a case against you and trying to get me to give up information. From what I've heard their's a lot of people who link he is the last Don, but that's all heresay. Just thought I'de warn you.

Now I have had finally a discussion with [b]The Stranger that I could understand. I kind of see his point about Sasaki now that its not so convoluted with the spam. If your still interested in making a case against him I need information. Whatever you are willing to give. I think if I have enough information I can find the weakness in the information posted by him in the thread to actually get him to stumble - but I need the intel that will allow me to do this.

Tell me what you know and I'll try to fill in the gaps that I know of. Sir Don.

So still working on that rumor that was planted by Major Dump - rather interesting. TS informed me of alot of different things - and I am trying to confirm his story. That requires information that from another source that is independent of his. So decide to help lynch Sasaki if you have information that contradicts what he posted in the thread or not? Your choice.

Well that's just it I haven't read anything that the Stranger has claimed cause most of his posts are rubbish. If you tell me what he claimed then I might be able to help you plus what MRD said.

Ichigo

Then I will get back to you in a day or two, because its going to take a bit to sort out what TS actually stated in the thread and what he has given me for now and what he has promised to provide me.

ratfink?

================================================================================

What the message shows is that pevergreen could have actually been shown the exact discussions that you to had.

Now this post is a good counter to the validity of pevergreen posts

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402637&postcount=1390

however I missed one thing – I too sent you a message that I edited out a portion of your comments because I didn’t need them in my response. Its very possible that pevergreen was showing us a message that had undergone just such an edit.

Now when I first looked at pevergreen’s follow on post I thought what a flimsy response until I looked at the PMs that I saved to a text file, something new for me because I normally just delete PMs. But with the scope of the game I found myself learning something new. From my text file saved PM’s.

Image my surprise that the save format was pretty much the same as stated by pevergreen because initially I assumed he was lying to get you lynched.

he Guild;https://forums.totalwar.org/vb
Private Message Dump for User Redleg; 01-26-2007 14:30 -->

################################################################################
Folder : Sent Items
################################################################################

================================================================================
From : Redleg
To : JimBob, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh
Date : 2007-01-22 16:52
Title : Protection mission Pevergreen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A citizen protection group has been formed to protect Pevergreen, the citizens that are forming this group are Jimbob, Pannonian, and Redleg

================================================================================
From : Redleg
To : pevergreen
Date : 2007-01-23 04:27
Title : Investigation Request for next night phase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If no better suspect comes out of this night phase and the discussion for the lynching - if you don't mind keep luigi VI di Fatlington in mind for one. I am going to attempt to draw some more information out of him during the next day phase.

================================================================================
From : Redleg
To : luigi VI di Fatlington
Date : 2007-01-23 12:45
Title : Re: Hello
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am primarily focusing on protecting my fellow townie's.Hello Redleg,

Now that you're a director, could you spare your protection group to protect me for the night?

My group is tied up protecting another townie.

So far, we've killed three mafia. Kralizec is a don, and Beirut was his luca. GH was a luca too.
Have you got any clues about the identity of the remaining mafia yet? Any leads?
I have it on good authority that The Stranger is a townie. I think we can assume for the moment he is.

I have alreadly committed two groups, let me see if there is still time to get a third.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The xxxx is my separation of the text file cut and paste and the remaining of this discussion.

This cut and paste demonstrates that to accurately portray the PM [b]pevergreen[b] would have been required to edit the quote functions at the beginning of the message. (Lesson learned when using the text file saved PM, cut and paste the way the text file is actually saved).

This Sasaki was one of the points I did not initially understand that pevergreen was attempting to explain.

Now this message sunk pevergreen’s argument if General Hankerchief is telling the truth. But we already discovered that he is prone to deceit with his messages after his murder.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402749&postcount=1410

So on the surface you made a good defense of the accusation against you. But as pointed out you did not address a few points. Which is a sound tactic when presented with an inconsistent accusation.

Now for the PMs I sent to people to get some follow-up information.

The original message – now I am cut and pasting from the PM’s.

Now I have had finally a discussion with The Stranger that I could understand. I kind of see his point about Sasaki now that its not so convoluted with the spam. If your still interested in making a case against him I need information. Whatever you are willing to give. I think if I have enough information I can find the weakness in the information posted by him in the thread to actually get him to stumble - but I need the intel that will allow me to do this.

Now these messages were sent to four people. Ichigo pevergreen pannonian and Major Robert Dump

Here are the initial responses.

From Pannonian

Is this a fishing expedition, all the better to lynch me with? I'm saying no more, all the efforts I've made to help the town have been spurned and turned against me against all reason. If you want Sasaki, go get him yourself.

[b]Pannonian’s[b] second response

You and TS have already done a hatchet job on me, and even in this exchange you've already threatened me, so I'm not particularly inclined to comply. I've already warned that Sasaki should be killed while we had the chance, but TS and his like were too involved with their egos to listen to my advice.

If you want me to join the campaign against Sasaki, give me the material you have and I'll see if I can make something of it. Then TS should post the list of vigilantes in the thread so we can lynch them one by one. I don't want a PMed list that he can deny, I want a public list so everyone can see. Without the preliminary act of trust and this most important of pro-town acts by TS, I have no reason to trust you, especially as you've already lied about my deceiving you in PMs.

From Ichigo

ell me what you know and I'll try to fill in the gaps that I know of. Sir Don.

The second response from Ichigo notice the cut and paste doesn’t grape the initial quote tap. Another possibility for pevergreen’s need to edit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Now I have had finally a discussion with The Stranger that I could understand. I kind of see his point about Sasaki now that its not so convoluted with the spam. If your still interested in making a case against him I need information. Whatever you are willing to give. I think if I have enough information I can find the weakness in the information posted by him in the thread to actually get him to stumble - but I need the intel that will allow me to do this.

Tell me what you know and I'll try to fill in the gaps that I know of. Sir Don.

So still working on that rumor that was planted by Major Dump - rather interesting. TS informed me of alot of different things - and I am trying to confirm his story. That requires information that from another source that is independent of his. So decide to help lynch Sasaki if you have information that contradicts what he posted in the thread or not? Your choice.

Well that's just it I haven't read anything that the Stranger has claimed cause most of his posts are rubbish. If you tell me what he claimed then I might be able to help you plus what MRD said.

Ichigo[/quote]

Notice on this message how the quote tags are indeed messed up. Cutting and pasting from a text file takes a lot of review and editing to insure you got the information correct. When one is in a rush its very easy to make an edit mistake. In fact this edit is a result of that, I had to fix several quote tags because they were incorrect, As those who read the orginal post before this edit can verify

Now the really interesting response came from Major Dump

I honestly didn't talk to him all that much. After Pev told me he was our secret guy, i sent him results of my PMs and expressed concern that pev was posting too much and playing too many sides at once, to which sasaki responded that i should not worry about pev it will all work out. I am curious why he never teamed up with me for a kill, though. Also, GH and I neve4r had a discussion about sasaki i dont recall, only that pev told me he alerted GH to sasakis role.
He seemed to assume Pannonian was a townie, and that all the wiseguys were working for a town win, and he discouraged me from contacting wiseguys

When I sent Sasaki a pm asking what it was exactly he did, sent me a brief explanation, told me he was posing as a wiseguy and then sent me the official wiseguy pm. Thats the only pm I still have actually.

round 1, you came up unclear and proleteriat innocent

round 2, you came up unclear and pannonian innocent

there, i investigated you twice, big guy

only mades can recieve an "unclear" result when they run an investigation, which is how i think pevergreen drew outside suspicion by claiming he had a detective on his side and then claiming people were coming up unclear, something that a detective would never get. I dunno.

Now for pevergreen’s last PM to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by pevergreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Now I have had finally a discussion with The Stranger that I could understand. I kind of see his point about Sasaki now that its not so convoluted with the spam. If your still interested in making a case against him I need information. Whatever you are willing to give. I think if I have enough information I can find the weakness in the information posted by him in the thread to actually get him to stumble - but I need the intel that will allow me to do this.

What do you want?

He was given to my family only, but used the role to fool other familys. Only in my case, he was on my role pm. He continued normally until i said i had deleted my day 1 pm's. Then he acted as if he didnt know me. Covering himself.

He left me and started working for Pannonian, who betrayed his mafia family.

It would be great if you had the role PM. But if you have a PM that talks about any of the assignments that you wanted him to carry out, I might be able to use that to counter something in the thread.

I never told him to do anything, he was just going to protect my family from investigations, but by doing that, i would owe him a favour.

So he never did anything for me.
I dont have his role PM, and mine is posted multiple times in the game thread.

Now frankly is not much evidence against you on its own, circumstantial at best, but given the nature of the accusations made by those in the thread, and your rushing to the thread because me and luigi were discussing the possibility that you duped us all, leads me to conclude that you have indeed played us all very well.

Your undoing was that you had to weave a pretty intense tangle of deceit, and in doing so rushing to prove your innocence when no accusation was made public seems a little suspicious.

Kralizec

01-27-2007, 16:41

Well, now I feel less guilty about accidentally exposing Beirut :laugh4:

Sasaki was never informed about my PM scheme because I distrusted him from the start, though I suppose he could have told BKS about my role in the game. Beirut was told, but it doesn't seem likely that he told BKS or Sasaki about it.

I send that PM to BKS because at that point I had nothing to lose anyway, though in retrospect I realise that it was incredibly stupid and unnecessary to give him the actual name of the family.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-27-2007, 16:52

We're not using any, nor asking for any.

Are these (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402637&postcount=1390) screenshots?

I believe they are.

So far, I don't thinkk anybody has posted the kind of screenshot that requires an immediate WoG, but I just wanted to remind folks to avoid them completely. Thank you.

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 17:00

You guys are spending your ammo tooooo early... again...

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 17:06

Redleg

01-27-2007, 17:58

Look at it from my point of view Redleg. I receive a pm telling me you are plotting to get me lynched. I start pm'ing, and two people who were previously proclaiming my innocence are lying to me and pm'ing each other. Lying + plotting to lynch the detective = a good chance of being guilty. I posted the pm's in the thread, and now you have had to go public with your plot. From your posts it is evident this upsets you, and I can see why, as I suspected you don't have a case. You know it isn't much of a case which is why you immediately try to point suspicion at me for posting the pm's. When I point out that this is not at all inconsistent with my behavior in Mafia IV where I underwent similar weak accusations, you dismiss it as irrelevant because you hadn't played in that game. It appears you can't afford to lose this point. I will go into further detail then.

That point of view is not one of an innocent man and is another indiciation of your duplicity. Again saying that I plotted is another indication of your guilt. I find your attempt more damaging to your case then it helps. Attempting to use others to gain information is not a plot. Its as simple as that/

Having not played any of the other games your comments about other games are not relative to any discussion between you and me concerning this particlur scenerio. Again your attempting a weak hand.

Using moderator powers to spy on others - lets see that more damning then me and luigi discussing the possiblity that you are attempting to fool us all. And you frankly have admitted to that.

Not all townies act the same, and not all mafia act the same. There are certain behaviors that are attributed to each, but if someone exhibits a behavior when they are townie it ceases to be a mafia tell. Whether you were in the game or not has no relevance. You seemed to be misinterpreting my reaction so I pointed out a game with me as a townie for comparison. Your refusal to give up this point is one of the most suspicious things about you. The 2nd most suspicious is the caving to perceived public pressure evident in your posting of the evidence before you were ready. You were obviously worried that public opinion would turn against you.

Tsk tsk a weak rebuttal - not very good at all. Using previous games that I was not a particpant in, nor have I read - does not make a sound arguement.

But why don't you explain the unfair advantage you have over everyone - the use of moderator abilities while playin the game. That my fine feathered friend is a cheat regardless of how you attempt to justify it. You used it to expose the fact that the stranger was attempting to fool others.

That's okay I don't mind, but for someone that claims they are after mafia players a lot of conservations have been geared around certain statements, too many individuals have refered to the special player and the evidence points that you have that role, or that you are using your moderator powers for an unfair advantage over the rest of us.

In my mind either one should get you lynched.

Now, on to your actual "evidence". This is interesting. The first section is a recap, then you go into a length description of why pevergreen's pm's were cleverly faked, and then you post some pm's from mafia members. The main accusation in your post goes back to the "something to hide" statement which has been refuted. Now, to go from statements of my innocence made yesterday to "sasaki is guilty" said today by luigi, would require substantial evidence...if he were town. There isn't substantial evidence, so it seems more likely he is mafia. If he really has been convinced by that then he is less perceptive than his other posts indicate. To me this smells like an attempt to lynch me now that I can't be nightkilled. I think you have some explaining to do. To spend three hours reviewing one would have to have more significant suspicions than the ones you have posted...or more motive for removing me from the game.

Again a weak rebuttal to the post - you have been hiding something. You have used duplicity, and frankly your using your moderator abilities for an unfair advantage in this game. I find it rather amusing that you feel the need to use moderator abilities to win a simple text base game. Frankly that in itself leads me to conclude that yes indeed pevergreen, Pannonian and the Stranger all were correct.

Just like I suspect the stranger of being a made mafia of Kralizec's family because of the information he has exposed in the thread and the trail of information that I have looked at. And then as mentioned in the PM's to you, I strongly suspect Pannonian is a member of the third family, maybe even its Don.

Which leaves only you having more information then the rest. Is this because you have been playing the families for a victory condition of your own, as pevergreen alluded to way back in the beginning? As a special role you will have your own set of victory conditions.

If its only because you are using your moderator abilities to figure out the mafia players then so be it, but that sir is an unfair advantage and taints the game for the rest that don't have it.

So where does that leave us in this game. My conclusion is rather simple and has been posted alreadly.

HughTower

01-27-2007, 18:08

This fight's going nowhere fast. It could just be an intra-town squabble between 2 strong characters.

Redleg - you're working hard, but it's all blather, or easily edited (I'm not agreeing wth or refuting it though). Can you tell us what mod powers he has used? Other than what I've argued against Pannionian, do you have further evidence?

Saski's role PM was very believable, that's why he saved himself from a lynching. If you want the town to convict him, you'll have to put forward a case as simply as that.

Sasaki - you now have potentially 6 investigations (or 4 & 2 killings) whilst you have night time immunity. Correct? Your cover's blown, so let's start seeing some results. You've exonerated luigi already, I believe, so unless he's Don, he's not mafia. Investigate Redleg & publish. Investigate some of these dangerous lurkers, who normally play greater roles in these games. You know them better than I.

We must have other detectives - I'm sure TS is the conduit for one. Investigate these lurkers & PM Ichigo with the results - everyone knows he's a townie, so he can post them with impunity.

This is the lurker (no vote) list as posted by Seamus:

No Vote = 18 (Alexander the Pretty Good, Destroyer of Hope, Doc_Bean, Drisos, Hepcat, Ignoramus, MarcusBrutus, Masy, Papewaio, Peasant Phill, Reenk Roink, theRTWGuru, Tom_Hagen, Xdeathfire, Zalmoxis)

I'll put it in my signature too - just to keep it fresh in the mind.

Redleg

01-27-2007, 18:20

@Hughtower

address your concerns with Sasaki and ask him why he was so neverous that me and luigi were discussing things via PM to each other? And then simply ask him how he knew that we were PMing each other?

An innocent man does not mind someone going back and discussing the issues to insure no problems are presented. It seems Sasaki has taken issue that I decided to contact and gather information from the four individuals that were accusing him of duplicity.

Duplicity is what the game is about, the ability to prove it is the key to winning the game. I find it interesting that while Sasaki has acknowledge his own use of duplicity he has a problem with my use to determine if he has played the town for fools or not.

If he had not posted in the thread - my investigation might have gone nowhere. But as it is, Sasaki attempts lead me to another conclusion. Every individual in the game has the ability to reach their own conclusion - I have just posted mine for criticism, review, believe, or disbelief.

Stig

01-27-2007, 18:24

Stig, Sir Boo and Sir Moody probably refused to join the White Glove Mafia.
False, I had only 2 contacts. One who I trusted, and you.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 18:25

Lies + attempt to lynch = plot. Simple.

Having not played any of the other games your comments about other games are not relative to any discussion between you and me concerning this particlur scenerio. Again your attempting a weak hand.

In your original claim against me, you were not aware of past games, and so your position was not suspicious. Now you are aware however, and you have kept on at the same thing. Relating someone's behavior to their behavior in past games is one of the mainstays of the mafia hunters arsenal. Accept it.

I see you have a new accusation for me now. I'm "cheating" by using moderator powers. You sound upset and a little fearful at having been caught out on this. If I go to check who's online to see if the person I've pm'd is there, I see stuff. For example, I saw you check who's online as well. Don't be hypocritical.

I find it very significant that you haven't used your "evidence" from your giant post in this latest. Instead it's the already refuted evidence from before and a new accusation of "using moderator powers" which you fail to explain as suspicious. Why are you complaining about me using moderator powers to reveal someone with a double account?

Redleg

01-27-2007, 18:29

Lies + attempt to lynch = plot. Simple.

Plot to find truth using deception on those that wanted to lynch you. Rather simple isn't. Can you not handle a little investigation to determine your honesty?

In your original claim against me, you were not aware of past games, and so your position was not suspicious. Now you are aware however, and you have kept on at the same thing. Relating someone's behavior to their behavior in past games is one of the mainstays of the mafia hunters arsenal. Accept it.

Accept the fact that I have not read any of the other games - nor will I. YOur attempt here is ir-revalent

I see you have a new accusation for me now. I'm "cheating" by using moderator powers. You sound upset and a little fearful at having been caught out on this. If I go to check who's online to see if the person I've pm'd is there, I see stuff. For example, I saw you check who's online as well. Don't be hypocritical.

Tsk tsk - that is not what you stated in your PM - you clearly stated that I was PMing luigi you sir are caught in a lie once again.

I find it very significant that you haven't used your "evidence" from your giant post in this latest. Instead it's the already refuted evidence from before and a new accusation of "using moderator powers" which you fail to explain as suspicious. Why are you complaining about me using moderator powers to reveal someone with a double account?

No use to use the old post since you have not addressed any of it. Rather simple.

But don't worry Sasaki someone sent me a screenshot yesterday, and I have informed Seamus and I await his judgement. I don't cheat nor do I like those that feel the need to cheat to win a simple game. Call it a personality flaw of mine.

HughTower

01-27-2007, 18:37

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 18:40

Plot to find truth using deception on those that wanted to lynch you. Rather simple isn't. Can you not handle a little investigation to determine your honesty?

Your attempt is not genuine.

Accept the fact that I have not read any of the other games - nor will I. YOur attempt here is ir-revalent

This shows your attempt is not genuine. If you actually cared about discovering things about me you would have done your research.

Tsk tsk - that is not what you stated in your PM - you clearly stated that I was PMing luigi you sir are caught in a lie once again.

I saw you pm'ing luigi. I said in this very thread that I saw you pm'ing luigi. Where is the lie? You're just getting desperate now. Your gamble didn't pay off.

No use to use the old post since you have not addressed any of it. Rather simple.

I have indeed addressed it. I see this is going nowhere.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 18:41

Come on, Wolf.

Who's going to be your patsy this time? I'm dying to find out. Will you claim that Pannonian is the don? Redleg? The Stranger? Me?
Will you go after some poor schmuck like Motep again?

Or are you to busy sending rushed PMs to your Barzini family now? Trying to find excuses you can send them for your monumental cock-up? :smash:Yes! I was so hoping you'd choose me as your patsy. :jumping:

Oh wait, did I say monumental cock-up? :beam:

Now, to go from statements of my innocence made yesterday to "sasaki is guilty" said today by luigi, would require substantial evidence...if he were town. There isn't substantial evidence, so it seems more likely he is mafia. If he really has been convinced by that then he is less perceptive than his other posts indicate. If I'm town, Sasaki? IF i'm town?

What about your investigation results (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402877&postcount=1449) then? The ones you posted with your forged rogue detective role description?

Private Message: N2 Investigation Results 01-23-2007, 12:29 Seamus Fermanagh vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
Praefectus Fabricum
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The USA's historic triangle.
Posts: 2,284

N2 Investigation Results

Luigi: Innocent

Moderator stuff.

Please append to info thread as per usual.

Having PM problem.

Here's what my box reads:

Welcome, Seamus Fermanagh.
You last visited: Today at 10:49
Private Messages: Unread 65534, Total 77.

Can you assist? I'll save what I need no later than 1300 EST.

Hang on, I'm not going to spill my evidence here yet. I'm just going to sit here, taunt you and wait for mistakes in your replies...

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 18:47

@ Sasaki - how do you know Redleg & Luigi were Pming each other?

In who's online. Normal members could see:

"Redleg-private messaging"
and
"luigi-private messaging"

I see:

"Redleg-creating private message luigi"
"luigi-viewing private message Redleg"

Now, redleg has hypocritically accused me of cheating here. But the fact is: he has been in "who's online" as well, and even without moderator abilities it is easy to deduce that he and luigi were pm'ing eachother (especially given the pm he accidently sent to me). I can't turn the extra information off.

He has also claimed going in to who's online makes me guilty, which I guess is a claim that he himself is guilty. In the past, only towns have gained information from who's online (Redleg will dismiss this sentence as irrelevant I'm sure). The fact that he is upset enough at being seen pm'ing luigi to make little insults suggests that he has reason for not wanting this fact revealed.

edit: I forgot about invisibility mode. They may have been using that.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 18:49

Don's turn up innocent, don't be tiresome luigi. You're smarter than that.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 18:50

Don's turn up innocent, don't be tiresome luigi. You're smarter than that.
Yes Sasaki. I knew you'd claim I could be / probably am the don in your next post. In fact, this post of mine was written ages ago, that's why I can respond so quickly. :beam:

See, If I'm really the Don of the last family, and you had just revealed yourself as a rogue town detective, then I would have had the town lynch you, wouldn't I?

Remember I only stepped in in the last minute (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77078&page=75)? When you were this close to being hanged? The tally was Sasaki 5, TS 5, Motep 3. I could've posted some rubbish about you, voted you, and you'd been history. With nothing tracing to me. That I was silly enough to save you proves I'm not a don. I'm not that uncunning.

It's simple, if I was a don, I wouldn't have posted what I did. That is completely nonsensical.

Remember our PM conversation we had yesterday? :

-maybe you would. I think your town, I'm just sayin.
-list is in the reveal post
-cool
-Sigurd we shall see about. Warluster I'm waiting on information about. Motep is suspicious but mainly a save myself vote.
-understood
-good idea, when I have the time.

Sasaki

After pevergreen turned up mafia I'm paranoid about moles in the network. My plan is to See who gets wrath of godded. If there are people who don't get WoG'd but hardly have any posts, it means they have been pming him. Would be prime candidates for mafia lurkers. Xiahou in particular I noticed, he had 2 posts in the thread before I said that about the lurkers and then he has 2 posts voting me :/

Innocent doesn't mean you aren't a godfather though. Meh. I'm cautious as a matter of principle.

Sasaki- If I'm a don I would've had you lynched of course. Take that as both a compliment and as proof of my innocence.
You're underestimating either your reputation or my cunningness here.

Will you send me a list of all the people you've investigated thus far then? This will prevent me from making costly mistakes...

- I agree with your plan about lurkers.

- Did you and Sigurd make up? What's the deal with Warluster?

- Sorry I posted so late in the thread, my delay made Moros post your detective role. But I was dealing with Pever first, extracting information. Not to mention there's also real-life.

- Moderation tip: in the other thread, can you pre-clude Seamus' write-ups with a bolded post #?
Should help navigating the thread, it let's people know where to look, from where to read.

Hang on, I'm not going to spill my evidence here yet. I'm just going to sit here, taunt you and wait for mistakes in your replies. This PM of yours made me suspicious of you. Want to know why?

HughTower

01-27-2007, 18:52

Yes! I was so hoping you'd choose me as your patsy. :jumping:

Oh wait, did I say monumental cock-up? :beam:

If I'm town, Sasaki? IF i'm town?

What about your investigation results (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402877&postcount=1449) then? The ones you posted with your forged rogue detective role description?

Hang on, I'm not going to spill my evidence here yet. I'm just going to sit here, taunt you and wait for mistakes in your replies...

Luigi - in Sasaki's defence, Dons will show up as innocent. Not that I have any evidence to suggest that you are a Don.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 18:55

@luigi-wifom

Redleg

01-27-2007, 19:03

I need to comply with a message from [b]Seamus[b] concerning a screenshot that was sent to me. For now I will just leave my case on its own merits. I await the host's judgement.

HughTower

01-27-2007, 19:08

In who's online. Normal members could see:

"Redleg-private messaging"
and
"luigi-private messaging"

I see:

"Redleg-creating private message luigi"
"luigi-viewing private message Redleg"

edit: I forgot about invisibility mode. They may have been using that.

@Sasaki - Thank you for replying. But, you're not online according to the 'Who's Online' page now? Redleg's not invisible. Luigi's defence about not lynching you is plausible.

@luigi- your defence does make sense, but does not incriminate Sasaki necessarily. What is clear to you might not be so to him. He's reacting in the most part to allegations from Redleg which you seem to support - that's all. Did you not find his role PM credible?

@ Redleg - any chance of an answer to my question?

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 19:13

@Sasaki - Thank you for replying. But, you're not online according to the 'Who's Online' page now? Redleg's not invisible.

Yes, I do have an unfair advantage. But it's not fair to accuse me of cheating. I can't read threads without seeing who is using invisible mode, and I can't go into "who's online" without seeing details about who is pm'ing who.

Redleg

01-27-2007, 19:15

@ Redleg - any chance of an answer to my question?

Not yet. But its in the thread if you wish to review it.

Crazed Rabbit

01-27-2007, 19:15

@ Hughtower:

@Crazed Rabbit - this is a response from about 5 pages back to a couple of points you made or asked of me:

1. Re: my pursuit of Proletariat, I'm not aware that Ichigo has admitted to protecting (or is it trying to kill) Proletariat on N1 - can she confirm this? If so, fulsome apologies & bouquets of virtual flowers shall ensue.
Ichigo has admitted, several times, that he tried to kill Proletariat in order to infiltrate the mafia. He also revealed the PM, from Andres the Cunning, which almost got a non-playing person lynched. This was in the first round of voting to lynch somebody, and got Kralizec (Actual writer of those PMs, as it turns out) lynched.

2. Re: Pannionian's double suicide request. I am not a detective, just a townie. It was an empty promise/offer that he knew no-one would/should accept, which is why he was safe to make it. It was this tactic, plus the PM from MRD he revealed that made him appear so suspicious.

Good point.

address your concerns with Sasaki and ask him why he was so neverous that me and luigi were discussing things via PM to each other?
Well, it seems he was right to be suspicious - you guys are trying to get him lynched, rightly or wrongly.

CR

HughTower

01-27-2007, 19:28

Yes, I do have an unfair advantage. But it's not fair to accuse me of cheating. I can't read threads without seeing who is using invisible mode, and I can't go into "who's online" without seeing details about who is pm'ing who.

The other mods said that they would turn their invisibility off so as to negate that advantage. Your answer to Ichigo's request that you do the same was this:

As I can see through your invisibility, I'm going to leave mine on to gain an unfair advantage :bounce:

I presumed you were joking. The bouncey fella suggested as much.

As for going into 'Who's Online', perhaps, you should show some restraint & not do that. If you have Mod privileges, maybe you should treat them as such, & not abuse them. It may not be out & out cheating, but it's certainly a large & unfair advantage, & therefore using it is against the spirit of the game.

If Seamus agrees, can we have that stipulated & Sasaki asked to comply?

That said, it is not proof at all of his mafia-ness. I still find his role reveal very credible, & that this squabbling is only abetting the mafia cause.

Think (as you & Luigi discussed) lurker! Lynch lurker! Win game!

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 19:31

HughTower

01-27-2007, 19:36

@ Hughtower:

Ichigo has admitted, several times, that he tried to kill Proletariat in order to infiltrate the mafia. He also revealed the PM, from Andres the Cunning, which almost got a non-playing person lynched. This was in the first round of voting to lynch somebody, and got Kralizec (Actual writer of those PMs, as it turns out) lynched.

CR

And did he perform this with a killing team? Seamus' description had Prole protected by someone. With theRTWGuru, there was no protector in the narrative.

My point then is- was she not killed because she was protected, or because Ichigo's group wasn't large enough etc.? If protected, by whom?

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 19:38

@Redleg, I can't be a mafia because if I would be one I'd left a sign when I killed Andres. Also when I'd be working for the mafia of Kralizec why did I posted in the thread before the Autopsy that he and Pevergreen were a Don.

HughTower

01-27-2007, 19:41

I can agree to that. I didn't know people had a problem with it, you can't actually identify mafia with it in this game since everyone is pm'ing anyway. I don't know why Redleg is making such a big deal out of it.

Probably because if you're new to this game like he is, then he thinks that PM's are exactly that - private. Why on earth would anyone go to the 'Who's Online' page? I empathise with him wholeheartedly.

Also, knowing who people are talking to is crucial. If you saw me PMing a known/suspected Mafia member, then you'd want to know why.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 19:46

Probably because if you're new to this game like he is, then he thinks that PM's are exactly that - private. Why on earth would anyone go to the 'Who's Online' page? I empathise with him wholeheartedly.

Also, knowing who people are talking to is crucial. If you saw me PMing a known/suspected Mafia member, then you'd want to know why.

I'd sent a pm and wanted to know if I should stick around for a reply or go take a shower.

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 19:47

Did you not find his role PM credible?
No, I didn't. I was going to bring it up at some point, but I'll indulge you.

Here is the forged role-description, in this post:

Right, I have to go to bed and have no desire to wake up lynched. I urge you all to vote for Warluster or Motep. Congratulations pevergreen, you've forced me to reveal:

01-16-2007, 16:48 https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/user_offline.gif Seamus Fermanagh (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=13105) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/icons/icon0.gif CDTC: Your Role

Your Role: Rogue Detective

As with any pro-townie role, your basic mode for success is to vote to lynch Mafiosi, eventually removing the mafia threat from Fatlington and creating a town win. You’re not too worried about playing by the rules, however. In the style of Mike Hammer/Sam Spade, you are more than willing to dispense justice as needed with the help of “Betsy” (your Colt Model 1911 .45 ACP, hand loaded cartridges with dum-dums and armor piercing in a 2-1 ratio—and yes you always carry a full clip and one in the tube). On odd-numbered nights you may investigate up to 2 people. On even-numbered nights, you may attempt to kill anyone whom you have learned to be “guilty” or “criminal” in your investigations. If you give up this kill option, you may investigate 1 additional person on that even-numbered night phase.

Role Changing:

At your discretion, however, this role can change. This will take time, effort, and coordination with other townies. If you:

Combine with 2 Independent Wise Guys or 1 Made/Family Wise Guy to attempt a killing. 3 successful killings and the permission of the family Don and you become a Made member of that family (losing your Rogue Detective status).

Combine with 3 other townies you can attempt to kill one target per night (after two successful hits, you will become a Wise Guy (losing your Rogue Detective status).

Combine with 2 other townies you can attempt to protect one target per night (after two successful protections, one of you may become a “Doctor “ losing your Rogue Detective status).

Creating these combinations is up to you however, and you will have to work out your own deals/contracts/arrangements for forming such a combo with the other players.

PM’s:

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

“Get some sleep” “Investigate so-and-so” “ Kill so-and-so” “Protect so-and-so in combination with player 1, player 2…” or “kill so-and-so in combination with player 1, player 2…”

Warning: if the requisite number of townies is NOT available, the protection/kill effort will almost certainly fail. If a townie attempts a kill/protection solo, the effort will certainly fail, and there will be at least one chance in three that the townie will perish in the attempt.

Investigations:

You will always register as “criminal” if investigated. When investigating others, your information will be significantly delayed – but much more accurate – then a regular detective. Rather then receiving your information at the conclusion of the night phase (when the regular detective gets their answer), you will receive yours at the beginning of the 2nd DAY phase following the investigation (e.g. investigate night #1, receive answers Day #3). Your sources are great, and have access no cop could duplicate, but they move at their own pace.
When investigating others, remember that “innocents” include Townies and Dons, that “Criminal” includes some Townies as well as mafia Mades and Lucas. “Guilty” includes Mades and Wise Guys on the night of a kill as well as any Townie who has been involved in a killing. When you’ve identified a “guilty” target you may (60% if Made/Luca, 80% if Wise Guy, 100% if Townie) get additional evidence about other crimes or other data as well.

Special Note: You have one chance in 10 on each investigation to learn the exact role of the player investigated as well as the “normal” detective information above. This chance drops to 1 in 20 for identifying the Dons.

Getting Recruited:

What if a Mafioso seeks to recruit you? You can respond as you wish to such an offer. Your “shady” past will let you function as a Wise Guy at need. If recruited by a townie group, you can function as a normal townie – and sometimes use your special function as well. Beware – participation in either of these approaches has the potential to alter your role as noted above.
__________________
Seamus

Let me bring you all things refined:
Galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings, well-met fellow; hail!
-- Ian Anderson

When the just are triumphant, there is great jubilation; but when the wicked gain pre-eminence, people hide.
-- Proverbs 29:12

Private Message: N1 Investigation Results https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/post_old.gif 01-20-2007, 23:05 https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/user_offline.gif Seamus Fermanagh (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=13105) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/icons/icon0.gif N1 Investigation Results

Beirut: Criminal, Made Gangster (Tataglia)
Banquo's Ghost: Innocent.

__________________
Seamus

Let me bring you all things refined:
Galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings, well-met fellow; hail!
-- Ian Anderson

When the just are triumphant, there is great jubilation; but when the wicked gain pre-eminence, people hide.
-- Proverbs 29:12

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Private Message: N2 Investigation Results https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/post_old.gif 01-23-2007, 12:29 https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/user_offline.gif Seamus Fermanagh (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=13105) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/icons/icon0.gif N2 Investigation Results

Luigi: Innocent

Moderator stuff.

Please append to info thread as per usual.

Having PM problem.

Here's what my box reads:

Welcome, Seamus Fermanagh.
You last visited: Today at 10:49
Private Messages: Unread 65534, Total 77.

Can you assist? I'll save what I need no later than 1300 EST.
__________________
Seamus

Let me bring you all things refined:
Galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
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-- Proverbs 29:12

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Private Message: N3 Investigation Results https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/post_old.gif Yesterday, 14:33 https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/sdojo/statusicon/user_offline.gif Seamus Fermanagh (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=13105) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/rtw/icons/icon0.gif N3 Investigation Results

Dutch_guy: Innocent

doc_bean: Innocent

Please forward the summary sheet as appropriate, thanks.
__________________
Seamus

Let me bring you all things refined:
Galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings, well-met fellow; hail!
-- Ian Anderson

When the just are triumphant, there is great jubilation; but when the wicked gain pre-eminence, people hide.
-- Proverbs 29:12

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'On odd-numbered nights you may investigate up to 2 people. On even-numbered nights, you may attempt to kill anyone whom you have learned to be “guilty” or “criminal” in your investigations. If you give up this kill option, you may investigate 1 additional person on that even-numbered night phase.'
- It says '1 additional person'. That's two or three persons then. It doesn't say '1 person on odd-nights'.

Yet Sasaki only posts results for either two or one persons. Not two or three. This means the role description doesn't fit with results he posts. Oh well...it IS lot of work, forging a role-PM. Can't pay attention to every little detail.
Or he has been withholding investigation results, something which he didn't tell in thread. And which Moros and BKS no doubt won't be pleased about. For a town detective, Sasaki is not very forthcoming, not even to those he trusted with destroying the two families he doesn't work for...

- There's more. Remember I ran that 'AndresTheCunning PM' through a text comparison program, revealing Kralizec? Well, I ran the first forged bit of it through it also, comparing it with Sasaki's And Seamus' writing styles. Well bingo!

- There are too many details in the write-up to the role description too. Always a tell-tale sign of deceit. Throw in some trivial details to make your story convincing.
'In the style of Mike Hammer/Sam Spade, you are more than willing to dispense justice as needed with the help of “Betsy” (your Colt Model 1911 .45 ACP, hand loaded cartridges with dum-dums and armor piercing in a 2-1 ratio—and yes you always carry a full clip and one in the tube). '
None of the other role-descriptions have this sort of narrative writing in it - check your own. It completely contradicts Seamus' concise, succinct tone in all the other role-PMs

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 19:57

I think the english as a second language thing is hurting you here luigi. The description is ambigous, but I clarified with Seamus and it means one person on that night phase. Here:

Odd numbered nights:
Investigate: 2
Kill: 0

Even numbered nights:
Investigate: 0
kill: 1

or no kill and +1 investigation

Investigate: 1
kill: 0

Writing style programs are bugged. How many other people did you check with the same bit?

What makse you think none of the other role-descriptions have that much description? You say you've seen all of them?

I can however see how that would convince you if you were a townie. But if you're townie how have you seen all the other pm's?

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 19:57

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Your Role: Don Corleone

You are the boss of a crime family, and your goal is to take over Fatlington and become the Capo de Tutti Capi (Captain of Captains). To do this, you will need to eliminate all of the other Dons and establish a crime family that outnumbers the remaining Mafiosi and citizens of the town.

Powers and Limitations:

Your death is part of the victory conditions for the other Dons, and will also severely limit your families chance of success as creating a new Don is time-consuming.

You will almost always appear innocent in investigations because, normally, the Don makes no moves him/herself – that’s what your family members are for!

You will choose some “signature” component that will feature in all of your family’s killings. This may be a consistent method, a symbol or calling card, or some other distinctive characteristic – but it must be used in each killing without exception. You must notify me of this characteristic with your first nighttime PM.

If you have no other family members left, you may perform one of the following once per night: a) attempt to kill one target, or b) attempt to investigate two other citizens. Your investigation will parallel those of a made and help you identify further possible recruits.

You, and only you from your family, are aware of a special “friend” of the Mafiosi of Fatlington – The Wolf. Though not a member of your family, this person can provide unusually effective protection once in a while making it easier for your Family to achieve success and harder for detectives to track you. This is not without a price however, as you then owe The Wolf a favor which he/she can collect when they see fit and which you MUST honor, unless it would involve attacking a member of your own family.

PM’s:

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

“Get some sleep” OR if solo “kill so-and-so” or “investigate so and so”

Investigations:

If investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing.

Corleone Luca = GeneralHankerchief

Corleone Made = Major Robert Dump

The Wolf = Sasaki Kojiro

Hey, pevergreen, just to let you know it's not in your best interest to vote me. I know your not the detective now, so I figure you're mafia. Well I have one of the special roles, I can protect your subordinates from cop investigation. How about we work together?

Sasaki

You still haven't answered my question... HOW COULD YOU HAVE GUESSED/KNOWN SUCH A ROLE EXISTED...

3 times... I've asked... 3 times youve refused to answer...

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 20:00

You still haven't answered my question... HOW COULD YOU HAVE GUESSED/KNOWN SUCH A ROLE EXISTED...

3 times... I've asked... 3 times youve refused to answer...

I pm'd you the answer ages ago. Behold;

Your Role: Don Corleone

You are the boss of a crime family, and your goal is to take over Fatlington and become the Capo de Tutti Capi (Captain of Captains). To do this, you will need to eliminate all of the other Dons and establish a crime family that outnumbers the remaining Mafiosi and citizens of the town.

Powers and Limitations:

Your death is part of the victory conditions for the other Dons, and will also severely limit your families chance of success as creating a new Don is time-consuming.

You will almost always appear innocent in investigations because, normally, the Don makes no moves him/herself – that’s what your family members are for!

You will choose some “signature” component that will feature in all of your family’s killings. This may be a consistent method, a symbol or calling card, or some other distinctive characteristic – but it must be used in each killing without exception. You must notify me of this characteristic with your first nighttime PM.

If you have no other family members left, you may perform one of the following once per night: a) attempt to kill one target, or b) attempt to investigate two other citizens. Your investigation will parallel those of a made and help you identify further possible recruits.

You, and only you from your family, are aware of a special “friend” of the Mafiosi of Fatlington – The Wolf. Though not a member of your family, this person can provide which make it easier for your Family to achieve success. This is not without a price however, as you then owe The Wolf a favor which he/she can collect when they see fit and which you MUST honor, unless it would involve attacking a member of your own family.

PM’s:

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

“Get some sleep” OR if solo “kill so-and-so” or “investigate so and so”

Investigations:

If investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing.

Corleone Luca = GeneralHankerchief

Corleone Made = Major Robert Dump

The Wolf = Blah blah whatever

See how easy it is?

HughTower

01-27-2007, 20:02

I'd sent a pm and wanted to know if I should stick around for a reply or go take a shower.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I was being rhetorical! But great answer....!

'On odd-numbered nights you may investigate up to 2 people. On even-numbered nights, you may attempt to kill anyone whom you have learned to be “guilty” or “criminal” in your investigations. If you give up this kill option, you may investigate 1 additional person on that even-numbered night phase.'
- It says '1 additional person'. That's two or three persons then. It doesn't say '1 person on odd-nights'.

That's one reading of it. When I read it, it's just if he chooses not to kill on the odd night, he can investigate one person instead. That's why he's rogue - investigate 2 people Night 1, if he finds a criminal, he kills on Night 2 etc...

Anyway must go now. Laters.

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 20:08

Sasaki... I doubt Pevergreen would make up a paragraph, with names and such, don't you think... It doesn't even looks like Pevers writing and is just the same as Seamus' handwriting...

Louis VI the Fat

01-27-2007, 20:13

Okay, so what's the deal with Sasaki?

Well, he has a special role, he can investigate stuff and he can kill at will and he can select the pope and he's a double-login of TosaInu and...
Sorry 'bout that. Here it is:

Sasaki is the Wolf after all.

You, and only you from your family, are aware of a special “friend” of the Mafiosi of Fatlington – The Wolf. Though not a member of your family, this person can provide unusually effective protection once in a while making it easier for your Family to achieve success and harder for detectives to track you. This is not without a price however, as you then owe The Wolf a favor which he/she can collect when they see fit and which you MUST honor, unless it would involve attacking a member of your own family.

PM’s:

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

“Get some sleep” OR if solo “kill so-and-so” or “investigate so and so”

Investigations:

If investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing.

Corleone Luca = GeneralHankerchief

Corleone Made = Major Robert Dump

The Wolf = Sasaki KojiroThe wolf can choose his allegiance to any mafia family. Sasaki has used this advantage to first kill off the families of Corleone (Pevergreen, MRD, GH) and Tataglia (Kralizec, Beirut). He in fact works for the family Barzini - the infamous 'white gloves'.

He has pretended to be a pro-town detective, slipping information to his patsies. Amongst which, BKS, Moros, me. Who knows who else. But: the only information he ever shared was about these two families. In fact, most of the information about them came from Sasaki.

Yet, nothing is known to us about the third family - Sasaki, our 'rogue detective' has carefully hid all information about them from the townies he used to kill two families.

He double-crossed both the town and the families of Corleone and Tataglia. Telling each he worked for them. We now have the 'Wolf' of the last remaining family for a director, with lots of information about the town. God help us all.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 20:19

That pm is changed by pevergreen to incorporate the role I pretend to have. Look, if you are trying to get info from a don what role would you make up? A special mafia role, naturally. But you want his subordinates names. So you invent a role that can "protect his mafia from detectives". Why would I, if I was the wolf, pretend to have my actual role? Isn't that a little obvious?

And luigi, killing of the other families is a terrible plan for the wolf character you've have layed out. With all the townies there are in the town there is no way for the mafia to win if two of the three families are wiped out in the first couple rounds.

I still can't believe you guys trust pevergreen on this. It's been shown that he fabricated pm's (the working for pannonian pm). Why would you believe that pm when all he had to do was change a few words?

Seamus Fermanagh

01-27-2007, 20:30

Summary Night Five

The Stranger was exiting the evening meeting when a strange gust of wind sent a large object of glass and metal hurtling through the air at him. It revealed itself to be the round-screened cathode ray tube of the amazingly new RCA television sets being constructed in Camden. Somehow, there was even a picture displayed on the screen! The screen showed a single word – Screenies – with a gray circle (no color tubes of course) with diagonal slash superimposed on the bold-typed word. The Stranger was stunned, but not dead. <<What are the odds of such an occurrence,>> everyone wondered?

Ultrawar was taking no chances. He wore armor under his trenchcoat. He drove a vehicle with discretely armored sides and bullet resistant glass. His neckband had metal D-rings sown into it so that a garrote would find no purchase. He carried a Broom-handled Mauser submachine gun. He even had a syringe of epinephrine with him – just in case. He never made it home from the voting.

On the slick roads he traveled toward home, a heavy Packard touring auto braked sharply in front of him. The Packard had an unusual rear grill, with three long spikes protruding from the reinforced bumper. His armored vehicle had but one weakness – the reinforced grille at the front of the radiator. All three spikes plunged through the radiator, tearing it apart and slamming it back into the motor’s fan.

Two men leaped out of the Packard, carrying heavy pistols. Ultrawar smiled – his car was proofed against anything shy of a bazooka – and the cops would be along before too long. Both men dropped metal facemasks over their already masked faces and each quickly pulled a welder’s torch from their packs. Within seconds, the locks on both sides were slagged and very shortly thereafter all of the doors – and the trunk – had been spot welded shut.

Ultrawar tried to get out, but with the doors welded, the heavy immovable glass and thick armor of the car now prevented him from exiting. He hammered on the windows to no avail.

Meanwhile, the welders had returned to the Packard and driven it quickly into a garage while a third person, dressed as a police officer, calmly directed what little traffic was on the street around the “stalled” vehicle. Within minutes, the welders had returned driving a tow truck. Ultrawar’s armored car was hitched up and slowly towed to the docks.

There, one of the cranes they’d used to ship Shermans over to kill krauts was employed to quickly lift the car up, out, and gently down into the water at the side of the pier.

Water slowly made it into the vehicle – it was armored, not hermetically sealed – but the trapped air formed an air bubble in which Ultrawar could cling to life – for a while. The air bubble ran short on oxygen, and anoxia is every bit as painful as drowning. It would be nearly 4 AM by the time Fermanagh’s boys found the car – hours too late. They were also perplexed to find a “tin star” like those used by the Texas Rangers welded to the driver’s door.

For no discernible reason, at least according to the 12 witnesses interviewed afterwards, at about 1:15 AM theRTWGuru finished a final shot of rye whiskey, put his revolver to his head and blew his brains onto the wall at the far side of the booth.

Dutch_Guy was not going to be anybody’s fool. When the man knocked at his door at 9:30 PM that night and said he had to “read the meter,” Dutch didn’t hesitate. The man was pulled through the door, slammed into a chair in the parlor and treated to a close view of Dutch’s .38 police special. The meter man peed himself.

“Not too tough now, are you Wise Guy,” said Dutch. “Now it’s time for you to make like a canary…”

The man looked up, perplexed and scared, but then looked past Dutch towards the front Door. Dutch glanced away quickly, and was surprised to see two police officers standing behind him, guns drawn. He recovered quickly.

“Officers! This man is one of the mafia assassins we’ve been hunting. He was trying to masquerade as a meter man – after 9PM – like I’m supposed to believe the power company is ever THAT responsive to its customers.”

“He’ll end up dead quick enough,” said the younger officer. He then calmly shot the meter man in the chest twice, killing him.

Dutch wasn’t expecting that to happen, so he missed the second police officer’s quick shot from the hip – though it didn’t miss him. His gun arm was shattered by the dum-dum round, the arm almost severed at the elbow. He stared at the blood pulsing from the wound in shock then looked up at the face of the cop.

“But…you…”

“Don’t worry about it,” said the officer. He fired the coup de grace. “Don’t trouble yourself about anything.”

As he dropped the white glove on Dutch’s body, the younger “officer” spoke.

“Pity about the meter guy.”

“It got the door opened,” replied the second faux-gendarme.

“True, but Dutch is gonna have one hell of a penalty charge on his next power bill.”

“We should help him a bit then.”

The second “officer” walked over to the doorway, carefully turned off all the lights, and then both of them left.

Peasant Phil had had enough. Distraught over all the carnage and just unable to reliably feel “connected” anymore to his fellow Fatlings, he had decided to end it all. Liking fast cars, he had chosen autocide, figuring a high speed run down the main boulevard would be a thrill and that when he hit the obelisk in the center of the City Hall traffic circle, he wouldn’t feel much of anything. His plan worked – more or less. His high speed run – topping 110 in the last stretch – was a thrill, and he did reach the circle at speeds guaranteed to squelch him in an instant. He hadn’t counted on the blowout, however, so when his car veered into the café just across the street from City Hall he realized he wasn’t going to crush that stupid obelisk he always thought looked so out of place.

Instead, his car went through the front of the café, through the booth occupied by Hepcat, Ignoramus & Zalmoxis – wrong place, wrong time, and into the brick wall at the far side of the building. Phil’s objective had been achieved. Hepcat, Ignoramus, and Zalmoxis just weren’t quite active enough to see this one coming and get out of the way.

Sigurd Fafnesbane thought his role in Fatlington important. As a leading voice on the committee of vigilance, he knew that he could help bring about a better place – but dealing in secrets is hard. He needed time to collect his thoughts, gain perspective and revive his zest for life. He needed an anodyne for these trying times.

This is what brought him to a small room off Boyle Street. The red light coming from the buildings outside mixed with the smoke inside to give the place an other worldly quality. This was how Sigurd liked it. Even more, he liked what was moving in the red haze in front of him, a nubile form with long black hair.

All of his senses were alive and the troubles of Fatlington far away. As she came close, her hair brushed his face and her nails trailed lightly across his cheek. His breath caught in a delighted gasp. Sigurd hardly noticed the prick at the base of his neck. She continued to sway slowly in front of him, each gentle turn suggesting, inviting, taunting. His eyes reached for her, but his hands didn't follow.

<<That’s odd, I’ve had nothing to drink yet.>> And that’s when the tingle of fear began.

His body was no longer his. What was happening? His head swam. She stepped back and away. He was no longer her concern. Things went numb and he crumbled to the floor. Lying there unable to move, his head throbbed and his vision was hazy, but he could see shiny black shoes and realized someone else was now in the room. It was difficult to focus.

<<What were they saying? Who was this other?>> The words floated over him.

A quiet, resolved woman’s voice spoke. “I mixed in twice the amount of jando.”

“A bit excessive,” a man’s voice replied. “Anyway, here is the rest of the money and the ticket. You'll have a comfortable passage back to Sao Paulo and your family won't need to worry ever again.”

Sigurd saw a white glove drop to the floor in front of his face.

<<So clean,>> he thought. <<Like an endless field of pure, new snow.>>

Whiteout.

The morning briefing followed its usual sad course. As always, Chief Fermanagh tried to finish up with the “good” news of the post-mortem investigations.

“Well, it would seem that pevergreen wasn’t lying. We’re not sure what group he was officering, but his claim to be a mafia “Don” is checking out. We’ve got payment receipts and orders to anonymous associates – he was as bad an egg as Dutch Schultz. Moroever, our informants are now singing a little, and it would seem that two more Wise Guys were taken out of the picture. Sir Boo and AndrestheCunning were players and met up with some folks who took offense to their actions. On the down side, information from all sources makes it pretty clear that Caius Flaminius, Sir Moody, and Copperhaired Berzerker were just what they always claimed to be, regular old townies.”

“Keep after them folks, don’t let up the pressure on those scum!”

Seamus turned and walked from the room.

OOC

The Butcher’s Bill to Date:

Attacked: Proletariat (N1), Sasaki Kojiro (N1), Redleg (N2), Moros (N3), theRTWGuru (N3)

Lynched: Kralizec (D2) [mafia don], Beirut (D3) [mafia made], pevergreen (D4) [mafia don], Lord Motep of Kendermore (D5)

Murdered: GeneralHankerchief (N1) [mafia luca], Stig (N2) [wise guy], AggonyDuck (N3) [wise guy], Major Robert Dump (N3) [mafia made], Caius Flaminius (N4) [townie], Sir Boo (N4) [wise guy], Sir Moody (N4) [townie] AndrestheCunning (N4) [wise guy], Dutch_Guy (N5), Sigurd Fafnesbane (N5), Ultrawar (N5)

Suicided: Ichigo, (D2) [townie], Tribesman (D2) [townie], Copperhaired Berzerker (N4), Peasant Phill (N5), theRTWGuru (N5)

WoGged: MarcusBrutus (D5), Hepcat (N5), Ignoramus (N5), Zalmoxis (N5)

PM's with results and investigation results will be delayed.

Day 6 voting will begin, Sceduled to finish at 1600 HRS EST on 1/28/7.

NOTE:

I am very upset at the screenshots thing. It is possible that someone "did not know" that screenshots were forbidden by the rules even outside the thread. I will accept such an explanation for now.

Please be advised, however, that if this kind of cheating continues, I will have to consider my game compromised and unplayable. Yes, this is one thing that will upset me enough so that I take my marbles and go home.

The goal here is fun, not real life police work.

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 20:50

Ultrawar was attacked by a mafia other than the White Glove Mafia

DG was prolly killed by 2 wiseguys or detectives or sumthing...

Proletariat

01-27-2007, 21:26

My point then is- was she not killed because she was protected, or because Ichigo's group wasn't large enough etc.? If protected, by whom?

Seamus touched on this after it was brought up originally (I'll dig up the post if need be), that a write-up wouldn't so directly point out someone's role. Otherwise any lone townie could go attempt attacks on anyone each round they thought might be a Don, and it'd be tantamount to a public 'investigation', since the entire game would see the manner in which the attack failed.

So now we know Redleg knows something that's basically illegal... Not sure how we can take his opinion from here on out, or Luigi's since it was most likely his screen shot. Either way, Sasaki's PM seems legit, and like Hughtower, I think the White Glove Mafia is LOLing while the rest of the town lurks or squabbles amongst each other.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-27-2007, 21:33

Vote: Proletariat

Kill her now, she is the woman mentioned above. She is an assistant member of the white glove mafia! KILL HER! The thing that makes her suspicious is that she is the only female in the game! Clearly mafia!

Dutch_guy

01-27-2007, 21:39

Redleg

01-27-2007, 21:39

So now we know Redleg knows something that's basically illegal... Not sure how we can take his opinion from here on out, or Luigi's since it was most likely his screen shot. Either way, Sasaki's PM seems legit, and like Hughtower, I think the White Glove Mafia is LOLing while the rest of the town lurks or squabbles amongst each other.

The screenshot did not come from luigi. The matter has been dealt with by Seamus and the parties concerned, and its mentioned in the write-up. I don't mind accusations but the posted material by Seamus directly contradicts yuor statement here..

The Stranger was exiting the evening meeting when a strange gust of wind sent a large object of glass and metal hurtling through the air at him. It revealed itself to be the round-screened cathode ray tube of the amazingly new RCA television sets being constructed in Camden. Somehow, there was even a picture displayed on the screen! The screen showed a single word – Screenies – with a gray circle (no color tubes of course) with diagonal slash superimposed on the bold-typed word. The Stranger was stunned, but not dead. <<What are the odds of such an occurrence,>> everyone wondered?

My information came from an analysis of the written material that is available in the thread, and the PM's listed in the post. You can believe what you will about it or not. But ask yourself this question, What in law enforcement does a rogue mean? How does one become a rogue detective? What is the function of a Rogue?

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-27-2007, 21:44

Are you serious, Omanes ?

Pretty shallow accusation right there if you ask me.
If anything better comes up about anybody else I will probably go with them. In the meantime she is extremely suspicious - being the only female around that could possibly be involved in a kill.

Crazed Rabbit

01-27-2007, 21:45

Omanes -um, of all the various suspicions thrown around here recently, that might be the worst.

Do you think the mafia would write a kill description that implicated one of their members?

We are better off following different, more suspicious leads than some rabid accusation.

Perhaps this is your first game, in which case you should know that people can write kills in which they have assitants who are not real players. The guards of the director, for example, serve a role in preventing attacks on the director, but they aren't composed of real people.

As Dutch guy said, it's pretty shallow.

Crazed Rabbit

Proletariat

01-27-2007, 21:46

If I was in the White Glove Mafia, I'd be an imbecile to write myself up as a murdering stripper.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-27-2007, 21:49

Sorry guys, didn't realize that - I though Seamus was hiding clues in the write ups. Sorry again.
Unvote: Proletariat
Vote: Abstain

Proletariat

01-27-2007, 21:50

The screenshot did not come from luigi. The matter has been dealt with by Seamus and the parties concerned, and its mentioned in the write-up. I don't mind accusations but the posted material by Seamus directly contradicts yuor statement here..

Actually, not accusing you, just trying to gauge what should be made of the screen shot thing. It must not be a big deal if Seamus is willing to drive on, and if there's anything I know about you from our exchanges in the past, you might be mafia, but I sincerely doubt you're a cheater. I'm actually fairly certain you're townie, and these last few pages have been distractions.

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 22:06

Allright another night over and it seems the Mafia hasnt lost its strength at all.Infact i think they are right under our noses.How i see this is that we have few of these "couples" that act together like: The Stranger and Moros, Redleg and Luigi and Sasaki and BKS. They make huge noise attacking eachother that can be also just a smoke screen to fool us. I say we start lynching one from each "couple" and see how they turn out .Im pretty sure that one of the mafia families is playing us by acting as townie protection group. If these people are townies they dont mind dying for the cause of the town. And as we start to get results from their post-mortem investigations,im pretty sure we start to find our Mafia goons also.:smash:

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 22:26

Or what about you... what have you done for the town. Even though I might have suspicions about Sasaki, atleast we (the 6 mentioned above) have done all they can for the town... you just come around and lynch people...maybe those that will find out incriminating stuff against you...?

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 22:28

You can start from me if you want.I have nothing to loose.How about you?

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 22:32

Interest in the game.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 22:34

I'm just going to sit here, taunt you and wait for mistakes in your replies.

Funny you should mention that:

None of the other role-descriptions have this sort of narrative writing in it - check your own. It completely contradicts Seamus' concise, succinct tone in all the other role-PMs

It looks to me like you just let something slip. How do you know that "none of the other role-descriptions" have something like that? Sounds like you've seen most of them...including the don, made, and luca pm's? How exactly did you convince pever that you were the white glove don so easily? I think he'd have asked for proof.

Csargo

01-27-2007, 22:36

Lynch'em all let God sort'em out.

Redleg

01-27-2007, 22:37

Vote:Sasaki

Discussion has alreadly been presented.

Caius

01-27-2007, 22:39

Kill the mafia!I want revenge!

a voice said.

CountArach

01-27-2007, 22:40

Phil’s objective had been achieved. Hepcat, Ignoramus, and Zalmoxis just weren’t quite active enough to see this one coming and get out of the way.

Hehe, great joke...

Orb

01-27-2007, 22:46

Against Redleg + TSs Sasaki hunting

"Kralizec and Beirut might have been ratted out or maybe we were lucky. But one fact remains, the White Glove Mafia is alive and is killing. Sasaki, no longer working for Pevergreen is probably working for them. His socalled pro-town behaviour is Pro-White-Glove.

Aggony Duck also told Sasaki his role and of his protection group, Sasaki probably set the kill up himself. "

1. The Rogue Detective role pm can only be (in my view) written by Seamus. Sasaki does not even do a write-up for his own games, I doubt he would be able to do that. Also, if you had your own rogue detective, TS, as you claimed soon after he made his post, and his PM differed from Sasaki's, you'd have contradicted him on that and posted the real thing.

2. You said that Aggony Duck and Sir Boo were wise guys and part of protection groups in one of your own posts. Sasaki wasn't, therefore, the only one who knew. An alternative explanation is that you and Redleg are the two main organisers of protection groups, so if you were mafia, you would know exactly who not to attack and who to pick off. This seems extremely plausible to me, so Vote: Redleg

Redleg, at the statement that other games are irrelevant because you weren't in them: We caught Kralizec because of his spelling in previous games. Sasaki has always acted like this, there's nothing really suspicious about it. If anyone is acting suspiciously, it's you by overreacting.

Similarly, Luigi's analysis would suggest that he has quite a large number of PMs, this is suspicious in the extreme.

So for now, my prime suspects are The_Stranger, Luigi and Redleg. I'm going to vote Redleg because he seems to be carrying on this insane hunt with virtually no cause.

Pannonian

01-27-2007, 22:47

Vote: The Stranger

Kill the vigilantes so the detectives can actually make some sense of their results. At the moment, all three results of guilty, criminal and innocent can be explained away by his gang.

Vote tally as of #1642

Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
Redleg - 1 (Orb)
The Stranger - 1 (Pannonian)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Edit: Added vote tally.

The Stranger

01-27-2007, 22:52

Orb, after that i immediatly posted that i made a mistake and that was infact how they looked like.

Lynch Tally

Redleg - 1 (Orb)
Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
The Stranger - 1 (Pannonian)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Csargo

01-27-2007, 22:56

CountArach

01-27-2007, 23:08

I am going to vote for Sasaki, and this post is the reason why:

First of all I want to draw your attention to this post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402638&postcount=1391

You will note that it is Motep posting it. I am aware of this, but most importantly, look at the post count of Seamus. 2284. The date of this PM from Seamus is 01-23-2007

Now, look at Saski's post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402877&postcount=1449

Look at Seamus's post count in the first one. 2284. How convenient?

Now scroll down over the next 3 Seamus PMs...

Notice they all contain this same, magical number... 2284...

Now, I would say that this is suspicious, no? How is it that Seamus went 10 days without a single post? Me thinks Sasaki is fabricating evidence...

Vote: Sasaki

Sasaki - 2 (Redleg, CountArach)
Redleg - 1 (Orb)
The Stranger - 1 (Pannonian)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Edit: Added Vote Tally

Csargo

01-27-2007, 23:11

I am going to vote for Sasaki, and this post is the reason why:

First of all I want to draw your attention to this post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402638&postcount=1391

You will note that it is Motep posting it. I am aware of this, but most importantly, look at the post count of Seamus. 2284. The date of this PM from Seamus is 01-23-2007

Now, look at Saski's post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402877&postcount=1449

Look at Seamus's post count in the first one. 2284. How convenient?

Now scroll down over the next 3 Seamus PMs...

Notice they all contain this same, magical number... 2284...

Now, I would say that this is suspicious, no? How is it that Seamus went 10 days without a single post? Me thinks Sasaki is fabricating evidence...

Vote: Sasaki

You do realize that the posts add up even after the PM's they aren't going to stay the same.

Crazed Rabbit

01-27-2007, 23:14

Pannonian makes a good point - vigilantes give the town less people and confuse detectives, which would be a good reason to vote for The Stranger.

However, it seems, at least for the first few rounds, that the Stranger is pro-town.

Redleg continues going after Sasaki. I'm sorry, but the main point of his accusation is that Sasaki is suspicious because of how he responded to your PMs - is that right? Even though it seems that Sasaki is acting rather normally - and I think, Redleg, you make a mistake in discounting previous games (Look at Kommodus' mafia hunting thread).

Luigi seems a bit...off, but I don't think he's played before.

Right now, I'm torn between The Stranger and Redleg.

However, I think Stranger can help the detectives by telling them who was in his vigilante group.

So, Vote: Redleg

Sorry, but you haven't convinced me yet.

EDIT:
Sasaki - 2 (Redleg, CountArach)
Redleg - 2 (Orb, Sasaki)
The Stranger - 1 (Pannonian)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Crazed Rabbit

CountArach

01-27-2007, 23:15

You do realize that the posts add up even after the PM's they aren't going to stay the same.

The post count remains at 2284 for Seamus. How is it that over that whole time, from when Sasaki recieved the first one, to when Sasaki posted that, that Seamus made ABSOLUTELY NO POSTS on the entire forum? Including in this game. If he posts in this game, that is an extra post for him. There have been several lynchings and nights since then, so several more posts for him.

Sasaki Kojiro

01-27-2007, 23:17

The post count remains at 2284 for Seamus. How is it that over that whole time, from when Sasaki recieved the first one, to when Sasaki posted that, that Seamus made ABSOLUTELY NO POSTS on the entire forum? Including in this game. If he posts in this game, that is an extra post for him. There have been several lynchings and nights since then, so several more posts for him.

Look at your old posts. They all have the same post count. Every single one. Your very first post will have your current post count.

CountArach

01-27-2007, 23:20

Look at your old posts. They all have the same post count. Every single one. Your very first post will have your current post count.

Damnit, oh yeah.

Sorry, didn't realise that the PM count adds as well, I thought that remained static.

Unvote: Sasaki Kojiro

Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
Redleg - 2 (Orb, Sasaki)
The Stranger - 1 (Pannonian)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Moros

01-27-2007, 23:21

I can't follow the thread that well anymore as I have less time as at the start, bloody school. One thing I don't understand is why sasaki and TS are still being suspected, multiple times have we said the opposite and defended ourselves, with proves and logic. I just don't understand you guys. But I can't keep defending them if it doesn't help. Luckily I'll have time again Monday. If I miss something special or am needed for a question, please e-mail me. (as my pm inbox probably will be full otherwise.)
I have no suspect for the moment so:
vote: abstain

Proletariat

01-27-2007, 23:27

Good point. I'dve voted: Sasaki thanks to Arach's argument, if this hadn't been pointed out. It doesn't matter how many times Seamus has posted, everytime the PM is looked at it will have his latest post count, check your PMs to see that.

Pannonian has the only uncluttered reasoning at the moment, although I'm still somewhat suspicious of him for the double-suicide thing. For now I'll go along with him

Vote: The Stranger

Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
Redleg - 2 (Orb, Sasaki)
The Stranger - 2 (Pannonian, Prole)
Abstain - 1 (Omanes)

Pannonian

01-27-2007, 23:27

Vote tally as of #1652.

Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 2 (Pannonian, Prole)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Moros

01-27-2007, 23:28

wrong tally:
Sasaki - 1 (Redleg)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 2 (Pannonian, prole)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Kagemusha

01-27-2007, 23:32

Vote Sasaki

Moros

01-27-2007, 23:33

why can noone update the tally!? sigh.
Sasaki - 2 (Redleg, Kage)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 2 (Pannonian, prole)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Kralizec

01-27-2007, 23:39

why can noone update the tally!? sigh.

Because they have you to do it for them :whip:

JimBob

01-28-2007, 00:00

The only people who have made a clear argument so far are Sasaki and Pannonian. TS's story changes as more information is posted. And Redleg's argument is highly circumstantial.

TS seems more guilty, right now Red seems misguided. Tie them and let Sasaki double lynch them. When the investigations come back we can lynch Sasaki or not.

Vote: The Stranger

Sasaki - 2 (Redleg, Kage)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, JimBob)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

HughTower

01-28-2007, 00:05

Right, I see we're still trying to fight about whether to kill Sasaki or Redleg. Brilliant. If I was a Mafia Don (Don Barzini, is it?) I'd be making as much noise as I could right now, just to draw attention to myself.:no:

Re: Pannionian - pevergreen was/is a Don. He must have been the worst Don in the history of Mafia games because he couldn't control his urge to be involved & to be as clever as possible at all times. I no longer believe you are the Don I thought you to be. If I caused you inconvience, then accept my apologies. But why are you trying to lynch The Stranger? He lynched 1 person, who was a wiseguy, and he's admitted it. He's clearly a conduit for a detective. He's irritating, a law unto himself, but you wanted a double suicide to prive your innocence. Lynching him is a waste - pick a lurker surely surely surely.

@ Ichigo - what was your role in the attempted kill on Prole? How big a group was it? Of which roles?

What's Xiahou's role here? Or Masy? Or Papewaio? Speak to us - why are you lurking? If you've got a pro-town role, PM it to Ichigo (or a townie you trust) & let him deal with it.

THE PICK-A-LURKER BANDWAGON STARTS HERE

Vote: Xiahou

Csargo

01-28-2007, 00:09

@ Ichigo - what was your role in the attempted kill on Prole? How big a group was it? Of which roles?

Vote: Xiahou[/B]

Role? I was a townie. Three people. As far as I know they were all townies. But I'm suspicious of CountArach cause his name was given to me by pevergreen. The other person was Motep who I thought was a townie we'll find out whether he was in another night.

CountArach

01-28-2007, 00:14

Role? I was a townie. Three people. As far as I know they were all townies. But I'm suspicious of CountArach cause his name was given to me by pevergreen. The other person was Motep who I thought was a townie we'll find out whether he was in another night.

I was never in contact with Pevergreen, only Motep, and I was just pretending to go along with him. That's why no kill would've worked with that group.

HughTower

01-28-2007, 00:15

@Ichigo

And what message did you get back from Seamus about the result of your attempt?

Csargo

01-28-2007, 00:32

I was never in contact with Pevergreen, only Motep, and I was just pretending to go along with him. That's why no kill would've worked with that group.

Oops my bad your right.

@Hugh: It failed obviously.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 00:39

What's Xiahou's role here? Or Masy? Or Papewaio? Speak to us - why are you lurking? If you've got a pro-town role, PM it to Ichigo (or a townie you trust) & let him deal with it.

THE PICK-A-LURKER BANDWAGON STARTS HERE

Vote: Xiahou
Xiahou was heavily occupied in Graffiti Mafia, in which he was the sole remaining mafioso for much of the game. Give him a chance to recover before increasing his participation in this one.

Warluster

01-28-2007, 00:40

HughTower

01-28-2007, 00:42

@Hugh: It failed obviously.

Obviously. What I meant, was is it not more specific as to why it failed - e.g. through lack of numbers, or protection? Though thinking about it, it was always going to fail through lack of numbers, so maybe the protection bit is meaningless.

Oh well, thanks for your reply.

And can I just remind everyone before I go to bed:

PICK-A-LURKER! PICK A WINNER! VOTE: XIAHOU NOW

EDIT: Just seen Pannionian's post, so how 'bout this then?

UNVOTE: XIAHOU
vOTE: DESTROYER OF HOPE

Sasaki - 3 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, JimBob)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Crazed Rabbit

01-28-2007, 00:47

Sasaki still hasn't earnt my trust, even though he says he is a rogue detective, I see no reason for him to reveal it like that so-

Quick Question - you don't see a reason for the detective to reveal themselves when they are about to get lynched? :inquisitive:

He is somewhat suspicious, but that doen't seem like a good reason to vote for him at all.

Crazed Rabbit

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 00:50

And TS? What has he done suspicous, what has he done wrong? His story seems good enough to prove him Innocent, so i believe him innocent.
He should hang for the same reason that you should hang. Vigilantes will show up as guilty if investigated by detectives, thus a mafioso who had insinuated himself into your gang will have perfect cover for his mafia activities for the rest of the game. So name who the others are so we can clear the way for detectives. It's simple game logic that you should have considered before you mucked things up for the pro-town roles.

Night-kill group for AndresTheCunning
1. The Stranger
2. Warluster
3. Moros
4. ?

Warluster

01-28-2007, 00:52

Orb

01-28-2007, 00:57

Well I dont see why he did it then, when Sasaki could've done it ages back and proven himself innocent, so why now? Why not earlier? I'd say someones either PM'ed it to him to help, or he has made it up, or maybe he is a detective? Anyway, Sasaki, why didn't you reveal it earlier?

Possibly because he didn't want to get nailed by Mafia. Because he couldn't post any results at the time.

While you can say that he could acquire a protection group, there's the risk of the Mafia infiltrating said group, not actually participating and killing him.

Crazed Rabbit

01-28-2007, 01:01

Warluster

01-28-2007, 01:07

He got themI have to get confirmation if I can reveal such info, but I can say one thing, Dutch_Guy was also in the group, but he was attacked.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 01:11

Sasaki, what were the latest investigation results, and can you post a list of all your results so far? Make it as detailed and easy to understand as possible.

Redleg

01-28-2007, 01:16

Sasaki still hasn't earnt my trust, even though he says he is a rogue detective, I see no reason for him to reveal it like that so-

Vote:Sasaki

Sasaki - 3 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, JimBob)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Sasaki lashed out at people who were trying to help and he didn't reveal certian info.

I haven't heard the case about Redleg (I am still reading something like 4 pages back, this thread is massive!)

And TS? What has he done suspicous, what has he done wrong? His story seems good enough to prove him Innocent, so i believe him innocent.

With all of Sasaki attempt at calling out others for duplicity it seems he is more guilty of it then anyone else.

================================================================================
From : Sasaki Kojiro
To :
Date : 2007-01-26 22:48
Title : FW: Warluster
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, weren't there 2 white glove killings last night? Aggony thinks the mafia aren't recruiting so Warluster is no threat, I'm not convinced.

Sasaki

Can you shed any light on this?

He was with Aggony and me, but I only knew that because Aggony told me about it. All of my PMs to the group were CC'd to him, but I never received on from him, and I'm not sure if he actually participated in the protection.

I can't really say anything to allay your fears.

He was with Aggony and you, right? Are you sure he's pro town? Last night he pm'd me asking for names of mafia so he could contact them, then claimed I'd forged the messages, then claimed the messages were real but that I'd told him I was in contact with a bunch of mafia. I'm finding him really suspicious.

Sasaki

I can tell you this. He helped protect Moros that one time. Me, BKS and he did it.

Warluster is a rather erratic fellow; I bet he believed you to be guilty, thus trying to milk you both for information and incriminating evidence. Or he could be looking to join the mafia, after the diminishing of my townie group. Either way I don't think we'll see the mafia doing much more recruiting, they can really only trust themselves now and as long as noone recruits him, you can consider him a pro-townie.

Ducky

================================================================================
From : Sasaki Kojiro
To :
Date : 2007-01-27 00:48
Title : Re: Lynch vote and the lynch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the copy of the initial message sent to Seamus when it looked to be a tie between you and The Stranger. I had a discussion without Louis and like me we are both convince that both of you are working for the town. I need information so that I can get two that I am convinced are not for a town victory.

I think one of them is going to be lynched this round. The otherone is Jimbob. Do you have any information on him as of yet.

Hmm, was this it:

Select: Beirut

Who else to start us off but the axeman?

Especially when compared with:

I think, in the spirit of keeping things fun, we should give this role to a first-time player. That way, he is guaranteed a chance of staying alive and thus it will become more likely that he will stay for future games.

Select: pevergreen

Sasaki

ps about Warluster:

It's seems he is one of TS's guys that put the hit on andres. He was probably sending me those pm's on suggestion of TS. Doubt he's looking for a mafia family.

Kagemusha

01-28-2007, 01:17

Have you played mafia before? It's generally accepted that detectives won't reveal until they can take out a mafioso or they are in danger of being lynched.

Also, who else was in on the kill of Andres, Warluster? Pannonian is right that such a vigilante action would provide good cover for the mafia. (I don't know if I agree with him on lynching everyone who helped whack Andres, though)

Crazed Rabbit

Rabbit this is no ordinary mafia. Any detective reveal could be a made gangster aswell. Specially a made of a dying family that only works to get rid of as many competitors as possible and try to gain trust of the town to pass on to the end,becouse of his services to the town. There simply isnt a role in this game that can be trusted. What a better way would be for one family to gain trust of the town would be then to lead towns people to lynch the opposing families. And for the town to cheerfully protect them from their enemies.

Crazed Rabbit

01-28-2007, 01:24

Kagemusha, you have a good point - but I think the tactics behind revealing as a detective are the same.

Crazed Rabbit

Sasaki Kojiro

01-28-2007, 01:37

Sasaki, what were the latest investigation results, and can you post a list of all your results so far? Make it as detailed and easy to understand as possible.

Results so far are in my initial reveal. Haven't received any today.

I didn't reveal before because I couldn't be sure of protection and I was trying to get Kral's last mafioso.

Redleg, there isn't anything duplicitous about that pm exchange. I looked into warluster. Aggony said he was probably ok, I wasn't convinced. I looked some more, figured he's ok. Ta-dah.

HughTower

01-28-2007, 01:54

Redleg, there isn't anything duplicitous about that pm exchange. I looked into warluster. Aggony said he was probably ok, I wasn't convinced. I looked some more, figured he's ok. Ta-dah.

I believe he's highlighting Warluster's duplicity, not yours. He might even be sticking up for you!:dizzy2:

Csargo

01-28-2007, 02:18

Obviously. What I meant, was is it not more specific as to why it failed - e.g. through lack of numbers, or protection? Though thinking about it, it was always going to fail through lack of numbers, so maybe the protection bit is meaningless.

Oh well, thanks for your reply.

I don't have the PM anymore(I did a massive deletion of PM's after I suicided), but it was very vague it didn't give the reason it said it could have been not enough numbers, etc.

Csargo

01-28-2007, 02:29

Seamus something that's bothering me is this.

Director of the Committee of Vigilance:
On the first day phase, and then on each odd numbered day phase thereafter, the town elects the person who will direct the lynching effort. That person shall be director for the next two lynchings following their selection (e.g. Elected Day 1, Director Day 2, Director Day 3, Elected Day 3, Director Day 4 & 5, etc.).
a) The Director will choose the lynching mode, carry out the lynching, and, in the event of a tie vote, the director will decide who among those tied for the most votes will be executed. The director can execute none, one, more, or all of those tied votees at their discretion. The Director is provided with a special goon squad to aid in the executions, and this squad also makes it impossible to kill the Director while they are in office. While directing the lynchings, the individual in question may not vote.
b) Investigations will function as per the Director’s other Role.
c) Ability to act at night is a function of the Director’s other Role.

It doesn't say whether the Director can be lynched. Since he's the one that was elected he shouldn't be able to be killed while he's Director, should he?

Pindar

01-28-2007, 02:54

General Question: (I want to be clear about game mechanics) Each mafia family has a wolf and then there is 'the wolf' so there would be four wolves? Is this correct? Wolves are investigators and protectors of bad guys only or can they perform hits? Also, is there a difference in investigative power between a wolf and a detective/FBI guy? :book:

Pindar

01-28-2007, 03:00

Originally Posted by Seamus
Director of the Committee of Vigilance:
On the first day phase, and then on each odd numbered day phase thereafter, the town elects the person who will direct the lynching effort. That person shall be director for the next two lynchings following their selection (e.g. Elected Day 1, Director Day 2, Director Day 3, Elected Day 3, Director Day 4 & 5, etc.).
a) The Director will choose the lynching mode, carry out the lynching, and, in the event of a tie vote, the director will decide who among those tied for the most votes will be executed. The director can execute none, one, more, or all of those tied votees at their discretion. The Director is provided with a special goon squad to aid in the executions, and this squad also makes it impossible to kill the Director while they are in office. While directing the lynchings, the individual in question may not vote.
b) Investigations will function as per the Director’s other Role.
c) Ability to act at night is a function of the Director’s other Role.

Seamus something that's bothering me is this.

It doesn't say whether the Director can be lynched.

Doesn't the part I bolded in the quote say the Director can't be killed while in office (which would cover lynchings)? Doesn't this undercut all the votes to lynch Sasaki who is the current Director?

Csargo

01-28-2007, 03:02

Doesn't the part I bolded in the quote say the Director can't be killed while in office (which would cover lynchings)?

Well then there's a lot of people wasting their votes since Sasaki is the Director. Just thought I'de bring that up.

Edit:Well that could mean kill at night Pindar that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 03:07

Read Beirut's lynching scene.

Pindar

01-28-2007, 03:10

Well then there's a lot of people wasting their votes since Sasaki is the Director. Just thought I'de bring that up.

Edit:Well that could mean kill at night Pindar that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I think "can't be killed while they are in office" means they are invulnerable until a new election as they hold the office until a replacement is named. I think this is inclusive (both day and night).

Csargo

01-28-2007, 03:15

Read Beirut's lynching scene.

Well that really doesn't tell anything since that was Beirut's last day as Director after Redleg had been selected, but you could be right. I'll wait and see what Seamus says.

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-28-2007, 03:40

Lynch: The Stranger

Sasaki - 3 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 4 (Pannonian, prole, JimBob, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, Moros)

Redleg

01-28-2007, 04:36

Results so far are in my initial reveal. Haven't received any today.

I didn't reveal before because I couldn't be sure of protection and I was trying to get Kral's last mafioso.

Redleg, there isn't anything duplicitous about that pm exchange. I looked into warluster. Aggony said he was probably ok, I wasn't convinced. I looked some more, figured he's ok. Ta-dah.

So you can look into the actions of another, but no-one can look into your actions. That is an interesting comment to consider.

Csargo

01-28-2007, 04:39

Beirut(guilty mafia made),
ByzantineKnight(unknown),
Cowhead418(unknown),
General Hankerchief(Mafia Luca),
Hepcat(unknown WoGed),
HughTower(unknown),
Ignoramus(WoGed),
Kommodus(unknown),
Kralizec(Mafia Don),
Pevergreen(mafia Don),
Redleg(Unknown),
Reenk Roink(unknown),
Sasaki Kojiro(unknown),
Sir Moody(townie),
The Stranger(unknown),
Ultrawar(murdered)
Zalmoxis(WoGed)

Seamus Fermanagh

01-28-2007, 05:01

Seamus something that's bothering me is this.

It doesn't say whether the Director can be lynched. Since he's the one that was elected he shouldn't be able to be killed while he's Director, should he?

Directors can be lynched -- as was Beirut -- but may not be killed at night.

Edit: Sorry Pindar, my phraseology is off a bit, and too much ambiguity crept in. My original intent -- from the inception of the role -- is as stated above.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-28-2007, 05:03

ByzantineKnight

01-28-2007, 05:47

Vote: Sasaki

Xiahou

01-28-2007, 07:27

Xiahou was heavily occupied in Graffiti Mafia, in which he was the sole remaining mafioso for much of the game. Give him a chance to recover before increasing his participation in this one.
Thanks, you saved me from saying it. Even if I hadn't been tied up, the sheer volume of posts in this thread make it very difficult to stay on top of. :dizzy2:

General Question: (I want to be clear about game mechanics) Each mafia family has a wolf and then there is 'the wolf' so there would be four wolves? Is this correct? Wolves are investigators and protectors of bad guys only or can they perform hits? Also, is there a difference in investigative power between a wolf and a detective/FBI guy?My guess would be that there's only one wolf- as in a lone wolf. That's how I took it anyway... but I could be wrong. :shrug:

I'm still mulling my lynch vote at this point, Sasaki hasn't convinced me of his innocence yet, but Redleg may not be clean either. Then The Stranger, who perhaps appropriately, has been acting strange pretty much the whole game- frankly, Im amazed he wasn't lynched by now.

Just to get something on paper:
Vote: Abstain
But that's likely to change.

JimBob

01-28-2007, 07:28

New information is on its way in. And to prevent myself from voting for someone who may be innocent until I know for sure...
Unvote: The Stranger
Vote: Abstain

Sasaki - 3 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 08:30

Night-kill group for AndresTheCunning
1. The Stranger
2. Warluster
3. Moros
4. ?
I wonder who number four is too. I know he asked me to join, but I turned him down - he was too suspicious. Although I still trust that he is townie and perhaps another one of his gang is detective or rouge detective -that is where he is getting his information from.

After he asked me to kill Andres I was concerned, is he really who he says he is. I presume the answer to that is yes as I am yet to see any conclusive evidence against him or for him.

Warluster

01-28-2007, 08:34

I have already told veryone who was the fourth person in the group, on page 56 or 55, just look at the bottom of the page

ByzantineKnight

01-28-2007, 08:52

Sasaki - 3 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)

You forgot me.

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)

Csargo

01-28-2007, 08:54

You forgot me.

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Destroyer of Hope - 1 (Hugh)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)

You haven't given any good reason for your vote.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 08:59

I have already told veryone who was the fourth person in the group, on page 56 or 55, just look at the bottom of the page
There is no page 55 or 56?

Warluster

01-28-2007, 09:04

yeah, on this thread, we are on page 57 right now!

Csargo

01-28-2007, 09:05

yeah, on this thread, we are on page 57 right now!

Your post isn't at the bottom of 55 or 56

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 09:39

New information is on its way in. And to prevent myself from voting for someone who may be innocent until I know for sure...
Unvote: The Stranger
Vote: Abstain

Care to share the information? It was precisely the secret whispers and vouchsafes that led me to join the protection group for pevergreen despite my profound scepticism about him, as you may recall.

The Stranger formed a vigilante group that has provided safe guilty cover for its four members. He refuses to say who the fourth member of that group is, and pressures others not to tell. We're not sure about anyone's guilt as mafia, as often is the case with such games (see Kommodus' exchange with me in the 1st round of Mafia V for an example), but one thing we do know - The Stranger's actions were definitely bad for the town, and his secretiveness has compounded things. For one thing, if the town knew about his upcoming whack of Andres, we might have been able to dissuade him, saving us from 4 rounds of possibly unnecessary lynchings.

Persuasiveness may change, the game's rules do not. Unless there is solid evidence that other people are pro-mafia, there is a solid anti-town case against The Stranger and the other vigilantes. So can you share the informarion so the rest of us can judge for ourselves?

Warluster

01-28-2007, 09:46

On page 56, post #1672, theres your answer Pannonian

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 09:50

I wonder who number four is too. I know he asked me to join, but I turned him down - he was too suspicious. Although I still trust that he is townie and perhaps another one of his gang is detective or rouge detective -that is where he is getting his information from.

After he asked me to kill Andres I was concerned, is he really who he says he is. I presume the answer to that is yes as I am yet to see any conclusive evidence against him or for him.
The evidence is in the rules. Anyone who has participated in a vigilante killing will thenceforth show up as guilty if investigated by detectives. Imagine the free hand this gives to any mafia members who may have got into that group. Investigation result = guilty? "Oh, I was in The Stranger's group, so I'm clean", even as he kills on the mafia's account every night.

As I've said many times before, the more we bring things out into the open the more difficult things become for the mafia, yet he continues to refuse to name his fourth vigilante (note I pressed for the same in my PM reply to Redleg, wanting him to pressure TS into publicly providing the town with an explanation). Since he still doesn't do so, which we know is harmful to the town's chances, we might as well start the lynches with him. If the mafia win and the last remaining mafia was the fourth member he was hiding, more fool him for trusting him.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 09:53

yeah, on this thread, we are on page 57 right now!
I'm, oddly, on page 43. Must have messed up the CP when trying to get to understand it.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 09:58

On page 56, post #1672, theres your answer Pannonian

Edit: Just realised I was looking at 1572, not 1672. I want TS and Moros to confirm the name of Dutch Guy, and for Dutch Guy to confirm himself.

Warluster

01-28-2007, 10:01

ok,ok, we have diffrent page things, i will name the person Only once more. the fourth member is- Was Sasaki lynched last round? because he got most votes right? the fourth member is Dutch_Guy

doc_bean

01-28-2007, 10:50

Can we get on update on who's still alive in this game ?

HughTower

01-28-2007, 11:52

The evidence is in the rules. Anyone who has participated in a vigilante killing will thenceforth show up as guilty if investigated by detectives. Imagine the free hand this gives to any mafia members who may have got into that group. Investigation result = guilty? "Oh, I was in The Stranger's group, so I'm clean", even as he kills on the mafia's account every night.

As I've said many times before, the more we bring things out into the open the more difficult things become for the mafia, yet he continues to refuse to name his fourth vigilante (note I pressed for the same in my PM reply to Redleg, wanting him to pressure TS into publicly providing the town with an explanation). Since he still doesn't do so, which we know is harmful to the town's chances, we might as well start the lynches with him. If the mafia win and the last remaining mafia was the fourth member he was hiding, more fool him for trusting him.

Your logic is correct about offering camouflage, but in practice it would be quite difficult to set up. I think, like your offer of double suicide, you once again are seeking the extreme option. Why is that?

Andres was a wiseguy, who was strangely unhelpful in revealing that Kralizec was the Don behind his PMs even though that info was public domain.

The fact of the matter is that we are not going to find the White
Glove Mafia in this group. With 2 kills a night, there are at least 6 members & two kill teams. Wiseguys working with them must be promoted to Made by now. We need to find these foot soldiers. They are among the lurkers - they are not among Sasaki, Redleg or TS.

I repeat then,

PICK A LURKER! ANY LURKER! LURKERS FOR THE LYNCH MOB!

doc_bean

01-28-2007, 12:06

PICK A LURKER! ANY LURKER! LURKERS FOR THE LYNCH MOB!

You do realize I did vote don't you ?

Why do you hate me ? ~:mecry:

Vote:Tom_Hagen

One of the most dangerous lurker-mafiosi evar !

HughTower

01-28-2007, 12:16

You do realize I did vote don't you ?

Why do you hate me ? ~:mecry:

Vote:Tom_Hagen

One of the most dangerous lurker-mafiosi evar !

You're right. I've removed you from my signature, accordingly. And, since you've joined my campaign to shake things up a little, I'll do you the honour of jumping on your wagon.

THIS IS THE PICK-A-LURKER BANDWAGON! DO NOT BE AFRAID TO JOIN THIS!

Unvote: Destroyer of Hope
Vote: Tom_Hagen

Please note, if we're about to lynch a pro-town role who's lurking for a reason, then post your role PM to Ichigo & let him clear your name quietly.

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Tom_Hagen - 2 (Doc_Bean, HughT)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)

Dutch_guy

01-28-2007, 12:19

Edit: Just realised I was looking at 1572, not 1672. I want TS and Moros to confirm the name of Dutch Guy, and for Dutch Guy to confirm himself.

You'll see that I'll come up as innocent in two days time, I haven't sent a single PM to Seamus with the intent to kill someone. I did send him a PM in which I complimented him on my kill writing, and suggested he bold the names of the kills - as I almost missed my own death.

Anyway, in two days time my name 'll come up as innocent.

:balloon2:

Orb

01-28-2007, 12:21

So clearly, if Dutch Guy is innocent, one of the other members is very guilty.

Moros

01-28-2007, 12:29

Edit: Just realised I was looking at 1572, not 1672. I want TS and Moros to confirm the name of Dutch Guy, and for Dutch Guy to confirm himself.
yes, I believe it could have been him. BUt I don't know for sure TS, wanted to keep the 4th safe adn didn't tell.

Moros

01-28-2007, 12:33

You're right. I've removed you from my signature, accordingly. And, since you've joined my campaign to shake things up a little, I'll do you the honour of jumping on your wagon.

THIS IS THE PICK-A-LURKER BANDWAGON! DO NOT BE AFRAID TO JOIN THIS!

Unvote: Destroyer of Hope
Vote: Tom_Hagen

Please note, if we're about to lynch a pro-town role who's lurking for a reason, then post your role PM to Ichigo & let him clear your name quietly.

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Tom_Hagen - 2 (Doc_Bean, HughT)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, Moros, JimBob)
Yes, that doesn't seem to be a bad idea. Removing a lurker. I can't remember tom to have posted, and yet he isn't WoG'ed, did he post his pm's, then?

I'll guess I'll just jump the bandwagon this time. I don't want sasaki or TS to be killed, so I guess I'll just vote the bandwagon hoping that a lurker, someone who isn't playing, get killed of instead. While the chance is there he's a mafioso. WHile I know for sure Sasaki and TS aren't.

Edit: woops forgot to vote, lol:
vote: tom_hagen

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Tom_Hagen - 3 (Doc_Bean, HughT, Gertgregoor)
Abstain - 2 (Omanes, JimBob)

Stig

01-28-2007, 12:48

Players in:
Aggony Duck
Alexander the Pretty Good
Banquo's Ghost
Beirut
Big King Sanctaphrax
ByzantineKnight
Caius Flaminius
Copperhaired Berzerker
CountArach
Cowhead418
Crazed Rabbit
Destroyer of Hope
Doc_Bean
Drisos
Dutch Guy
General Hankerchief
Hepcat
HughTower
Ichigo [f.k.a. Csar]
Ignoramus
Ironside
Ituralde
JimBob
Kagemusha
Kommodus
Kralizec
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Louis VI The Fat
Major Robert Dump
Marcusbrutus
Masy
Moros
Orb
Omanes Alexandropolites
Pannonian
Papewaio
Peasant Phil
Pevergreen
Pindar
Proletariat
Redleg
Reenk Roink
Sasaki Kojiro
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
Stig
theRTWGuru
The Stranger
Tom Hagen [nom-de-mafia for Don C]
Tribesman
Ultrawar
Warluster
Xdeathfire
Xiahou
Zalmoxis

Posts per player:
The Stranger 186
Sasaki Kojiro 172
Moros 118
pevergreen 92
Pannonian 90
Ichigo 81
Seamus Fermanagh 73
Redleg 58
Lord Motep of Kendermore 54
Caius Flaminius 52
HughTower 52
ByzantineKnight 47
CountArach 44
Stig 41
doc_bean 38
AndresTheCunning 36
luigi VI di Fatlington 36
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot 31
Crazed Rabbit 29
Kagemusha 28
Kralizec 27
Big King Sanctaphrax 25
Warluster 24
Major Robert Dump 23
Orb 22
Proletariat 21
Ituralde 14
JimBob 13
GeneralHankerchief 13
Dutch_guy 13
AggonyDuck 12
Pindar 11
Sigurd Fafnesbane 10
Kommodus 10
Masy 9
Banquo's Ghost 9
Cowhead418 9
Sir Boo 8
Alexander the Pretty Good 8
Destroyer of Hope 8
Ironside 7
theRTWGuru 6
Beirut 6
Tom_Hagen 5
Xiahou 5
Reenk Roink 5
Sir Moody 5
Drisos 4
UltraWar 4
Zalmoxis 4
Xdeathfire 3
Papewaio 3
Ignoramus 3
Peasant Phill 2
Hepcat 2
Copperhaired Berserker! 1
Tribesman 1
marcusbrutus 1
MSB 1

Players WoG'ed:
MarcusBrutus (D5), Hepcat (N5), Ignoramus (N5), Zalmoxis (N5)

Players Suicided:
Ichigo, (D2) [townie], Tribesman (D2) [townie], Copperhaired Berzerker (N4), Peasant Phill (N5), theRTWGuru (N5)

Right MSB (1) ain't in, Hepcat (2), MarcusBrutus (1), Ignoramus(3), Zalmoxis(4) are all WoG'ed. Tribesman (1), Copperhaired Berserker (1), Peasant Phill (2) have suicided.
Low post people left:
Ultrawar (murdered N5)
Papewaio (in)
Xdeathfire (in)
Drisos (in)
Sir Moody (murdered N4)
Reenk Roink (in)
Xiahou (in)
Tom Hagen (in)

Help yourselves

Moros

01-28-2007, 13:02

thanks stig!
let's start with tom Hagen and work ourselves up the list.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 13:18

Your logic is correct about offering camouflage, but in practice it would be quite difficult to set up. I think, like your offer of double suicide, you once again are seeking the extreme option. Why is that?

Andres was a wiseguy, who was strangely unhelpful in revealing that Kralizec was the Don behind his PMs even though that info was public domain.

The fact of the matter is that we are not going to find the White
Glove Mafia in this group. With 2 kills a night, there are at least 6 members & two kill teams. Wiseguys working with them must be promoted to Made by now. We need to find these foot soldiers. They are among the lurkers - they are not among Sasaki, Redleg or TS.

However, on questioning, I have found at least some deception in their answers.

Post #1707 by Warluster (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1405432&postcount=1707)

ok,ok, we have diffrent page things, i will name the person Only once more. the fourth member is- Was Sasaki lynched last round? because he got most votes right? the fourth member is Dutch_Guy

Post #1714 by Moros (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1405521&postcount=1714)

yes, I believe it could have been him. BUt I don't know for sure TS, wanted to keep the 4th safe adn didn't tell.

"yes, I believe it could have been him. BUt I don't know for sure TS, wanted to keep the 4th safe adn didn't tell."

But in that case, how could the night-kill succeed? For night phase orders to succeed, all members joining in the action must be named. From post #26 by Seamus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1379183&postcount=26).

With all players PMing me each night phase, those PM's will include not only kill/investigate orders, but a notation as to who they are working with to accomplish the kill where applicable. How they coordinate the planning is up to them.

If I get 3 Wise guys pming in:

Kill X, working with B, C
Kill X, working with A, C
Kill X, working with A, B

then we have a quorum and X goes down.

If only 2 e-mail in, then the kill will fail.

PM procedures will be spelled out in the ROLE Assignment PM that I send to each player before the game's outset.

These are the questions I'd hoped to field when I made the prelim post a bit back -- but glad to get the info out there and sorry for not doing so clearly before. Prior to game start, I will modify the rules to reflect any changes resulting from such exchanges.

As to death revealing a role....I will consider it, as it may be of benefit generally (and not perfectly so, as one's role can change).

Clearly The Stranger is refusing to tell the truth, while Moros is actively lying, and perhaps Warluster as well. Then Dutch Guy speaks for himself in post #1712 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1405509&postcount=1712).

You'll see that I'll come up as innocent in two days time, I haven't sent a single PM to Seamus with the intent to kill someone. I did send him a PM in which I complimented him on my kill writing, and suggested he bold the names of the kills - as I almost missed my own death.

Anyway, in two days time my name 'll come up as innocent.

Perhaps Dutch Guy's autopsy will show him innocent, perhaps not. However, we do know for certain that Moros is actively lying, Warluster has provided him with material for a lie, and The Stranger has refused to come out with the truth.

Edit: cleaning up a long, multi-spoilered, quoted and bolded post.

Ironside

01-28-2007, 13:34

yes, I believe it could have been him. BUt I don't know for sure TS, wanted to keep the 4th safe adn didn't tell.

Suspicion warning!!

It's impossible to not know the name of all the members of a successfull killing. And Dutch_Guy denied involvement. So someone (several? only one lier would require unawareness of the rules) is definitly lying in that group... Whatever they were 4 or less...

Sasaki only to confirm from what I understood is what happened between you and pevergreen, according to what you claim. You infiltrated thier mafia-group climing that you had a pro-mafia role. Possibly it did exist a special role that fitted what you guessed would be a pro-mafia role, but no matter that, all that matters is that pevergreen accepted your claims and let you in. From the inside it was an easy matter to destroy the group.
pevergreen obviously got angry about this and made a strong case against you as revenge.

Correct?

Moros

01-28-2007, 13:35

Wait if that's true what you say I must be mixing a protection group and a kill group up. Wait I'll see if I still have the pm.

Andres

01-28-2007, 13:38

yes, I believe it could have been him. BUt I don't know for sure TS, wanted to keep the 4th safe adn didn't tell.

This cannot be correct.

Combine with 3 other townies you can attempt to kill one target per night (after two successful kills, you will become a “Wise Guy” and can progress from there).

...

PM’s:

Each night you are still alive, PM me with instructions for your actions that night. These may be:

... “kill so-and-so in combination with player 1, player 2…”

If I understand this correctly, you have to PM Seamus a) the name of the target b) the name of the other townies with who you are working.

The attempt on me succeeded, which means each participant has sent a pm with the names of the three other participants. Moros, TS and Warluster: it is impossible that you don't know the name of number 4.

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 13:45

N5 Protection Results
Protect Moros: Inconclusive,

Sasaki - 4 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Tom_Hagen - 3 (Doc_Bean, HughT, Gertgregoor)
Abstain - 3 (Omanes, JimBob, Xiahou)

Moros

01-28-2007, 13:49

Okay, I think I figured how it went again. me and my bad memory (I always remember things that don't matter, but things that matter, oh no) anyway or TS didn't want to give me the fourth name in a protection group once, or he didn't want me to know it at first. In the end he had send me the pm with the names and that we wanted to kill andres. I just forwarded it. I read the names, but for some strange reason I can't remember the fourth. It seems I also deleted the pm. Anyway if you want the 4th member it probably was Omanes something. That guy has been in a few of TS's protection groups.
Also why would I lie about the 4th guy? I could understand that if I'd be a mafia and I'd be protecting another mafia for example TS, than I might lie. About this fourth guy, not remembering. What reason would I have? Okay it might be suspicious. But what the hell. Kill me and you'll see you made quite a mistake and will regret it. Kill Ts and you'll made a mistake too. Now please lynch us and let mafiosi get away again.

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 13:51

I suspect the vigilantes include at least one mafioso in their list. Perhaps they were wise guys working for a family to give their Made an alibi, perhaps it includes a Luca as well to give him the benefit of the resultant cover. Whatever the truth of the story, they committed an act that is detrimental to the town's success, and they've now lied about it.

I say lynch them all, starting with The Stranger.

doc_bean

01-28-2007, 13:52

You really should save important PMs.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 13:53

Unvote: Abstain
Vote: Sassaki

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 14:28

Sasaki - 5 (Redleg, Kage,Warluster,ByzantineKnight, Omanes)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 3 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good)
Tom_Hagen - 3 (Doc_Bean, HughT, Gertgregoor)
Abstain - 2 (JimBob, Xiahou)

Yeah right Pann, what else do you got on us... you're just hammering on we might having a luca or a mafia or whatever... seriously...

You're still alive aren't you... Wasn't it you that wanted to suicide... why... Double suicide... you were no use to the town... why not lynch you... you said it yourself, you have no use... Why don't you set the example and vote for yourself...

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOOSE?

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 14:55

Yeah right Pann, what else do you got on us... you're just hammering on we might having a luca or a mafia or whatever... seriously...

You're still alive aren't you... Wasn't it you that wanted to suicide... why... Double suicide... you were no use to the town... why not lynch you... you said it yourself, you have no use... Why don't you set the example and vote for yourself...

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOOSE?
If that's the case, how about we revive the deal? I made the original offer because of one of the known factors of a Mafia game - the townspeople outnumber the mafia, so an exchange of one townie for one mafioso is a good deal for the town, as Crazed Rabbit has explained. People thought I made the offer because I "knew" people wouldn't take me up on it, but they never cared to find out if I would keep my end of the bargain.

Now as to my credentials as a townie. Unlike you, I have told the verifiable truth throughout the game, masses of it, virtually every activity of mine has been described in various posts in this thread, clearly and unambiguously. If people don't believe me, they can double check with the various people I have named, and see if our stories match. Once you have established I have been telling the truth throughout, then examine my behaviour to see if I have been pro-town or pro-mafia. Unlike The Stranger, I have not only been focusing on individuals and or families, but I have given masses of general advice that has held good in previous mafia games. If you assume I am a mafioso working against other families, you'll see that, if my advice was effective against rival families, it would be equally effective against my own. Why on earth would a mafioso do that? The simplest explanation is that I am not working for any mafia, but I'm working for the town. Therefore my advice which works against all mafia families will work towards my win conditions, ie. a town victory.

Since you've raised the deal again, how about we apply it to you? I am very suspicious of your gang of vigilantes. Even if there are no mafia in truth hidden in your gang, the possibility cripples the town and poisons the discussion. How about I kill myself, and likewise with you, Moros and Warluster, and whichever fourth member you don't care to name? I'm confident about my autopsy results, will you be? And if you think it's going to be bluster, I'll even kill myself first and ask the town to ensure the vigilantes are cleared from the scene, so the detectives can work with confidence again.

Edit: Correction of The Spartan to The Stranger. Can't blame me for the mistake, after the stunt TS pulled early in the game.

Kagemusha

01-28-2007, 15:09

Unvote Sasaki and Vote Stranger. I want to see a tie.We need to squish out all the information out of these "pro townies". In order to get the mafia.

Moros

01-28-2007, 15:18

sigh.
Sasaki - 4(Redleg,Warluster,ByzantineKnight, Omanes)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 4 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good, kagemusha)
Tom_Hagen - 3 (Doc_Bean, HughT, Gertgregoor)
Abstain - 2 (JimBob, Xiahou)

Ituralde

01-28-2007, 16:01

Well a lot to read so I will keep this simple. Frankly I don't trust anybody in this game, but seeing how many people are still left in the game we shouldn't worry yet about loosing suspicious townies.
While Sasaki may be playing us all I see no need to kill him off immediatelly. We should be able to lynch him later. I'm always reluctant to lynch a possible pro-town role.

Vote: The Stranger

Really no bad feelings and if you're just the helpful townie you pretend to be, who has a lot of connections, that death should not hamper your abilities. You can still post and PM all you want and help the town win this game.
People often tend to forget that the goal of these games is winnig and not surviving.

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 16:09

Unvote Sasaki and Vote Stranger. I want to see a tie.We need to squish out all the information out of these "pro townies". In order to get the mafia.
If there is a tie then Sasaki will live and the Stranger will die. Sassaki chooses who lives/dies when there is a tie.

Kagemusha

01-28-2007, 16:14

If there is a tie then Sasaki will live and the Stranger will die! Sassaki chooses who lives/dies when there is a tie.

Yes,but Stranger will spit his guts out of any information he has on Sasaki.

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 16:18

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 16:19

Unvote: Sassaki
Vote: Tom_Hagen

I'm just following instructions, sorry Tom_Hagen.

Vote tally:
Sasaki - 3 (Redleg,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 4 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good, kagemusha)
Tom_Hagen - 4 (Doc_Bean, HughT, Gertgregoor, Omanes Alexandrapolities the Idiot)
Abstain - 2 (JimBob, Xiahou)

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 16:24

If that's the case, how about we revive the deal? I made the original offer because of one of the known factors of a Mafia game - the townspeople outnumber the mafia, so an exchange of one townie for one mafioso is a good deal for the town, as Crazed Rabbit has explained. People thought I made the offer because I "knew" people wouldn't take me up on it, but they never cared to find out if I would keep my end of the bargain.

Now as to my credentials as a townie. Unlike you, I have told the verifiable truth throughout the game, masses of it, virtually every activity of mine has been described in various posts in this thread, clearly and unambiguously. If people don't believe me, they can double check with the various people I have named, and see if our stories match. Once you have established I have been telling the truth throughout, then examine my behaviour to see if I have been pro-town or pro-mafia. Unlike The Stranger, I have not only been focusing on individuals and or families, but I have given masses of general advice that has held good in previous mafia games. If you assume I am a mafioso working against other families, you'll see that, if my advice was effective against rival families, it would be equally effective against my own. Why on earth would a mafioso do that? The simplest explanation is that I am not working for any mafia, but I'm working for the town. Therefore my advice which works against all mafia families will work towards my win conditions, ie. a town victory.

Since you've raised the deal again, how about we apply it to you? I am very suspicious of your gang of vigilantes. Even if there are no mafia in truth hidden in your gang, the possibility cripples the town and poisons the discussion. How about I kill myself, and likewise with you, Moros and Warluster, and whichever fourth member you don't care to name? I'm confident about my autopsy results, will you be? And if you think it's going to be bluster, I'll even kill myself first and ask the town to ensure the vigilantes are cleared from the scene, so the detectives can work with confidence again.

Edit: Correction of The Spartan to The Stranger. Can't blame me for the mistake, after the stunt TS pulled early in the game.

I'm also sure of my autopsy... There's plenty of proof that I CAN'T be a mafia both in the rules, the narratives and my actions...

I'm getting lynched for overposting and annoying behaviour... well if thats reason enough to get lynched so be it... boy I'll laugh... this way you're never going to win the game...

The only thing you do is talking about yesterday and pointing fingers... asking let's mass ritually kill ourselves... WHY DO YOU NEED A BARGAIN, I'll get lynched by the looks of it, why don't you just kill yourself... You and only you...

Vote tally:
Sasaki - 3(Redleg,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 5 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good, kagemusha, Ituralde)
Tom_Hagen - 4 (Doc_Bean, HughTower, Gertgregoor, Omanes Alexandrapolities the Idiot)
Abstain - 2 (JimBob, Xiahou)

Pannonian

01-28-2007, 16:29

so... I have already done that... people screwed up my offense, Both Pannonian, Pevergreen, Redleg and Luigi fired before I said Fire and now we're out of ammo surrounded in hostile terratory... What can I say...

I've been beaten by Sasaki, I surrender... Nothing left for me to do.... but Boy I'll laugh when he wins...

It's easy to point fingers but in the meanwhile you socalled pro-town (read sneaky dirty mafioso's) are actually lynching the most active mafiahunters... scared?
Say what you like, but nothing justifies the vigilanteeism that messes up the town strategy. For that alone you should hang, but I've asked you to name your fellow vigilantes so we can tick them off the list and enable the pro-town roles again. Instead, you've evaded the question, and Moros and perhaps Warluster have even lied about it. You may have done some things that have benefited the town, but those actions can equally be interpreted as benefiting a rival mafia family. Against that, you have done things that are undeniably detrimental to the town, and hinder its prosecution of all mafia families. On top of that, you have tried to deceive us when asked to come clear about this.

Cowhead418

01-28-2007, 16:36

so... I have already done that... people screwed up my offense, Both Pannonian, Pevergreen, Redleg and Luigi fired before I said Fire and now we're out of ammo surrounded in hostile terratory... What can I say...

I've been beaten by Sasaki, I surrender... Nothing left for me to do.... but Boy I'll laugh when he wins...

It's easy to point fingers but in the meanwhile you socalled pro-town (read sneaky dirty mafioso's) are actually lynching the most active mafiahunters... scared?You don't get it, if you die you can still be very active - you just won't be able to vote. Recently you, Moros, and Warluster have been giving out very conflicting information, and it isn't helping the town right now. Did you, or did you not, form a kill group on Andres? How can you not know the 4th member, as the rules clearly state you must include that member in your PM? If you really are pro-town, then you'll have no problem taking one for the team.

At the moment, I'm not really sure of who to vote for. I'm very suspicious of all the members of your kill group, as they claimed Dutch_Guy was a part of it and he denies it. For now, since you are the leader of that group, I will Vote: The Stranger.

Vote tally:
Sasaki - 3(Redleg,Warluster,ByzantineKnight)
Redleg - 3 (Orb, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit)
The Stranger - 6 (Pannonian, prole, Alexander the Pretty Good, kagemusha, Ituralde, Cowhead418)
Tom_Hagen - 4 (Doc_Bean, HughTower, Gertgregoor, Omanes Alexandrapolities the Idiot)
Abstain - 2 (JimBob, Xiahou)

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 16:44

Jezus, I'm not their boss... I didnt told them to say that...

Whatever... When I die ill stop playing.. then its just not fun anymore...

Kudos to Pann and Sasaki, theyre playing you perfectly... there is like a shipload of evidence against Sasaki... and still you vote me... for killing andres... he was starting a mafia... I rid you guys of a potential new mafia family and in return I die... I know which side to choose next game... you bunch of ***************************************

Andres

01-28-2007, 16:49

Whatever... When I die ill stop playing.. then its just not fun anymore...

A spirit can be heard whispering: muahahahaha, justice will be done! Come to me The Stranger, join me in hell! I have a spot for you, in the fireplace...

Moros

01-28-2007, 17:00

perhaps you should vote for tom_hagen, ts.

It's funny that the 3 top posters are seen to be most suspicious. most of our posts were to help town or to defend ourselves. Now, the thing is, isn't it logical that those who post more, are due to post suspicious things? Also Pannonian, I can't recall you ebing helpfull to town that much. What you've been doing is attacking people the whole time. And who do attack the ones who made most mafiosi hang. Surely your definition of helpfull must be differen than mine. I doubt it is because you want revenge, could it be that this time you are the man holding the falx? I think it is time for you to do some awsering. Making wild accusations the whole time is a good way to make other people suspicious. And it definately helps when they are the ones being most actively after the mafiosi. Also it helps that two off them are non-natives who sometimes post thing that are interpreted differently than intended. And well sasaki, people vote him even before he has said something. Also you know that he's good at this too.
And you say I'm acting suspicious? I couldn't remember a name, defended two guys I know are innocent and lyself and I helped hanging mafioso and help killing one who obviously was. See the pm. Whatever Andres may say it can only be interpreted in one way. Not something I see as suspicious, constantly attacking the same people over and over again, without proof and them being the most active pro-towners. Yes, that is what I call suspicious.

Ituralde

01-28-2007, 17:06

Omanes Alexandrapolites

01-28-2007, 17:13

-snip-

Kagemusha

01-28-2007, 17:13

Maybe I should really add the following to my signature:

The goal of a Mafia game is not to survive, but to win the game!

Amen.

Moros

01-28-2007, 17:15

I am the wolf of pevergreen's family. I confess, I confess. There is no point surviving now, for it is all over anyway!
no, you're not. You're just trying to protect TS, isn't it? Fake reveals, only make it worse.

The Stranger

01-28-2007, 17:27

You Are Not Going To Win The Game By Lynching Me...

And When I Die I Have No Reason To Stay Involved... Why Should I Spend My Time On A Game I'm Not In Anymore... Sorry But Then I Got Better Things To Do... It's Not A Threat Or A Request Its Just How I Think About It...

Csargo

01-28-2007, 17:29

Moros

01-28-2007, 17:29

Now, now, now. You don't have to type with that much caps. Anyway, I kinda agree when I'm dead I stop following the game too, I think people who are dead shouldn't influence the game anymore. THey just lose their vote instead of being dead. Oh well. Just vote the lurker TS, with a bit of luck it might save you!

Dutch_guy

01-28-2007, 17:31

Moros

01-28-2007, 17:33

Wel Dutch, I think he's getting irritating. He has been doing it since the start. Anyway you can still just call me Gert! ~;)